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View Full Version : Setting up your attack... How accurate are you? - BF109 (TRACK INCLUDED)



XyZspineZyX
07-31-2003, 08:08 PM
Hello,

I've got a good amount of experience with the 109 now and consider my self an above average 109 pilot. I have little trouble staying alive as long as I actually bother to fly "by the book". I'm seriously an IL2 (or any other bomber) destroyer; I can rip down these birds faster than you can count to 3. However getting kills vs. fighters is another case. How do you setup your attack in the 109? I maybe hit my target vs. human fighters one out of ten, so for me to successfully be able to take down any VVS fighter it'll take me up towards 10 passes to bring him down.

How was this done in real life, how was 109 pilots like Hartman (or whatever his name was) so damn good at shooting down enemy aircraft?

What makes it so hard to actually hit my target is the fact that 1.) 90% of the time my target knows I'm hunting him and 2.) They never fly straight! People online turn every 5 seconds or so it seems.

Here are two tracks that pretty much demonstrate my problem vs. fighters.

http://www.r-syn.com/images/screenshots/il2/tracks/canthitsh!t1.ntrk
http://www.r-syn.com/images/screenshots/il2/tracks/canthitsh!t2.ntrk

How does this compare to some of you 109 aces out there? Is this just the way it goes for or are you actually able to calculate your targets position perfectly in every boom and zoom and bring him down 50%+ of the time in one pass?

- dreyer

XyZspineZyX
07-31-2003, 08:08 PM
Hello,

I've got a good amount of experience with the 109 now and consider my self an above average 109 pilot. I have little trouble staying alive as long as I actually bother to fly "by the book". I'm seriously an IL2 (or any other bomber) destroyer; I can rip down these birds faster than you can count to 3. However getting kills vs. fighters is another case. How do you setup your attack in the 109? I maybe hit my target vs. human fighters one out of ten, so for me to successfully be able to take down any VVS fighter it'll take me up towards 10 passes to bring him down.

How was this done in real life, how was 109 pilots like Hartman (or whatever his name was) so damn good at shooting down enemy aircraft?

What makes it so hard to actually hit my target is the fact that 1.) 90% of the time my target knows I'm hunting him and 2.) They never fly straight! People online turn every 5 seconds or so it seems.

Here are two tracks that pretty much demonstrate my problem vs. fighters.

http://www.r-syn.com/images/screenshots/il2/tracks/canthitsh!t1.ntrk
http://www.r-syn.com/images/screenshots/il2/tracks/canthitsh!t2.ntrk

How does this compare to some of you 109 aces out there? Is this just the way it goes for or are you actually able to calculate your targets position perfectly in every boom and zoom and bring him down 50%+ of the time in one pass?

- dreyer

XyZspineZyX
07-31-2003, 08:24 PM
According to Hartmann, he did it the old fashioned way--by zapping enemy pilots when they weren't looking. He had superior eyesight, to he could generally see the enemy first, get into position up-sun, dive down into the blind spot and fire a short burst at very close range. If he failed to kill or cripple, he said he'd usually break off and look for some other, easier target--there were often plenty around.

He also said he preferred to take out the least competent pilots--the ones who got out of position. That's the way most of the big scorers made their bones, even going back to the First World War. Dogfighting, Hartmann said, was a waste of time.

XyZspineZyX
07-31-2003, 08:28 PM
I wonder if it was easier to determine distance and such to your target in real life than FB. In FB without icons (all I play) it seems very hard.

XyZspineZyX
07-31-2003, 08:52 PM
From what I understand Hartmann didn't dogfight because it was too dangerous, especially because you would open yourself up to attack from another enemy while you concentrated on your target.

I think that dogfighting must have been quite rare, if someone got on your tail you got the hell out of there and forced the guy chasing you to finally give up otherwise he would lose sight of his squadron. Of course if he was too tight on your tail then you would have to try wiggle him off somehow. I guess everything would happen quite quickly and of course you could lose sight of your enemies and squadron quite easily.

That is something that doesn't happen in a game (especially online) people don't run away to live another day they stick to the fight cause if they die it's only a game. I have read that often an air battle was won by chasing the enemy away.

XyZspineZyX
07-31-2003, 09:05 PM
hello sdreyer,

When I m flying and I see a plane, it s not that hard to recognise it from quite a long distance but that s for real live
in FB, its kinda hard to recognise types of airplanes except if you are close enough
those planes have national insignias that can be seen from a mile away if you are in good condition(ie no sun reflect, highreverb in the clouds...)

I once get in a furball room(online) with 2 camps with all planes both camps and no icons it was almost imposible to distinguish friends or foes TK was high that night lolregards

XyZspineZyX
07-31-2003, 09:09 PM
nt = No Text

XyZspineZyX
07-31-2003, 09:12 PM
Xnomad wrote:

- That is something that doesn't happen in a game
- (especially online) people don't run away to live
- another day they stick to the fight cause if they
- die it's only a game. I have read that often an air
- battle was won by chasing the enemy away.


True, even tho i score hits on someone chasing my teammate they rarely or never break off until either my teammate or he is dead. I wonder if tactics would change if this game had limited lives like some other games has /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

Sry for the nt post, couldnt figure out how to delete it /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-sad.gif

XyZspineZyX
07-31-2003, 09:31 PM
I have the same problem with the 109, after take off i climb at heights of 2000-2500m and then search for enemy fighters, but when diving at speeds of 600/700 km/h its very hard to manouvre since the enemy sees you and one turn is enough to let you miss.
Another times La7 fighters see you coming and dodge you and come after you, i then get shot 90% of the time, since La7 can climb like hell /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-sad.gif

XyZspineZyX
07-31-2003, 09:46 PM
I do like to land, but when I am chasing a wounded or crippled foe I usually won't break off if I see tracers flying past me for two reasons: 1, enemy might make a landing and I won't get kill, or 2. teammate steals my kill . .


And if another plane is behind and probably above me they will kill me anyway, 9K is NOT a good plane to be in if someone has energy on you.

Besides, with 9K you only need one hit, and if you are lucky you can get it real quick.

XyZspineZyX
07-31-2003, 09:54 PM
- Besides, with 9K you only need one hit, and if you
- are lucky you can get it real quick.
-

nah, that's not the case. Maybe will be true when the patch comes out but apperantly those VVS planes are immune to MK108 (takes ofthen 5+ shells to take them down and with the MK108's recoil it's hard to hit with it).

XyZspineZyX
07-31-2003, 10:32 PM
Guys who I sneak up on rarely don`t see me.Then they do a turn,but this is one big turn like making a circle.It`s easy to predict it`s position in this case.I just dive in a straight line to where the opponent will be.I open fire and wait for the bogie to run into it.


Rolling and scissoring objects I don`t choose cuz it`s a waste of time.

Dud MK108 and MG151/20 don`t make the job easy either.

"degustibus non disputandum"

<center>http://carguy.w.interia.pl/tracki/sig23d.jpg

<center>"Weder Tod noch Teufel!"</font>[/B]</center> (http://www.jzg23.de>[B]<font)

XyZspineZyX
07-31-2003, 10:37 PM
I usually wait until I am like less than 10 meters away to shoot because I am afraid to miss. I end up flying right pass my target or ramming them on accident, or sometimes, shooting them down.

XyZspineZyX
07-31-2003, 10:54 PM
- Guys who I sneak up on rarely don`t see me.Then they
- do a turn,but this is one big turn like making a
- circle.It`s easy to predict it`s position in this
- case.I just dive in a straight line to where the
- opponent will be.I open fire and wait for the bogie
- to run into it.

I don't find it that easy to shoot a turning aircraft because you have to hide it under your cockpit view and thus you're pretty much just guessing. Spray and pray.


Yeah, I don't go that close before I shoot anymore because it ends up with me ramming my target 50% of the time (or because of lag something falls off my plane although I did not hit him on my screen).

- dreyer

XyZspineZyX
08-01-2003, 12:38 AM
bump

XyZspineZyX
08-01-2003, 01:01 AM
sdreyer wrote:
- I don't find it that easy to shoot a turning
- aircraft because you have to hide it under your
- cockpit view and thus you're pretty much just
- guessing. Spray and pray.


In FW190 it`s tragedy,just as you describe it.But in Me109 you can fix yourself such a position that lets you see the opponent just before punching the trigger.In my case i don`t see the target 0.5 to 1 second.So in the worst variant of the situation I lose 1 second burst.Unless you`re a SUPER ace that`s an acceptable loss in exchange for a hit.

My experience showed that if you fire only when the target is in the center of the gunsight you often overshoot or loose the perfect moment.I start shooting when I got him 200m in sight.If the burst is inaccurate I place it on the bogie.That way it`s easier for me to hit him cuz I actually see where my ammo is going and I can correct my aim much faster.Now I`m downing 1/3 more planes than before.


Ofcourse this tactic is kinda useless in DF servers.I fly in VOW where even 1 downed opponent is a success.Before I tried the new tactic I was coming home with 1/2 unused ammo,scoring 1 kill on every 3 missions.Now 9/10 is used and it`s 1 mission - 1 kill(2 often).


That`s what I like about it.Lose all ammo and score max 3 kills.Like in real life.

Hartmann was better though./i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif


"degustibus non disputandum"

<center>http://carguy.w.interia.pl/tracki/sig23d.jpg

<center>"Weder Tod noch Teufel!"</font>[/B]</center> (http://www.jzg23.de>[B]<font)

XyZspineZyX
08-01-2003, 03:21 AM
You fly too fast. Throttle is always at max. Rudder trim was also wrong in 1 trk. And you lose sight often, but that is also because your extensions are too high and too far, but that is also because you are too fast (also lose sight from grey out -> too fast). So you fly too fast. Fast is good if the target is unaware and if you are on the run.
Too slow is also not good. But you fly like in the trk's and the experienced player can make your attacks miss all day long.

Energy surplus is good but only so much so that you can do something with it. You have so much energy so that you can not do anything with it but fly around. Ofcourse that is the safe way, but the safest is not taking off at all.

BTW firing blind (below the nose) is what I do often in the 109F2. Fire blind with MG there is much ammo for it. You will be surprised howmany PK you get with it. Ok, the F2 is no IL2 killer. But I don't care for IL2's /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

XyZspineZyX
08-01-2003, 01:26 PM
- You fly too fast. Throttle is always at max. Rudder
- trim was also wrong in 1 trk. And you lose sight
- often, but that is also because your extensions are
- too high and too far, but that is also because you
- are too fast (also lose sight from grey out -> too
- fast). So you fly too fast. Fast is good if the
- target is unaware and if you are on the run.
- Too slow is also not good. But you fly like in the
- trk's and the experienced player can make your
- attacks miss all day long.

Rudder trim was wrong on track1? I don't use rudder trim ever, it is all default. How was rudder trim "wrong", explain please?

Well, if I'm not fast and miss my attack I give my opponent a chance to get on my 6 and take me down. What kind of speed do you recommend staying below?

- BTW firing blind (below the nose) is what I do often
- in the 109F2. Fire blind with MG there is much ammo
- for it. You will be surprised howmany PK you get
- with it. Ok, the F2 is no IL2 killer. But I don't
- care for IL2's

PK's don't work vs. VVS planes for me ;( I've been 5 meters behind a plane and with my gunsight right on the cockpit with MG fire and no PK ever!

- dreyer

XyZspineZyX
08-01-2003, 01:39 PM
Hi,

I doubt Hartmann experienced stuttering as he dived in on his targets because textures were being loaded up (my biggest problem with diving out of the sun) !


Norris

XyZspineZyX
08-01-2003, 01:55 PM
Here is something to put it into perspective:

"By the summer of 1943, the Germans had deployed the Focke Wulf FW 190A4, a dedicated bomber killer armed with two 7.9mm machine guns and four 20mm cannons. With all guns functioning, a three-second burst fired about 130 rounds of ammunition. The Luftwaffe estimated that it took an average of 20 hits from the 20mm cannon to destroy a B-17.

Analysis of gun camera film revealed that the average German pilot scored hits with only 2 percent of the rounds fired, thus on average, 1000 rounds were fired to score the 20 hits required.

http://freepages.military.rootsweb.com/~josephkennedy/German_Pilot_Perspective.htm

Zayets
08-01-2003, 01:56 PM
I don't know how things are working flying the Bf.I fly mostly thee Jug and FW , lately only the Jug. I don't enter in dogfights , actually I try to avoid every dogfight , especially when I'm flying alone. I want to join a squadron in Europe that fly the Jug , maybe is not that hard to find. With a mate , both flying the Jug , I'm not afraid of anything. What's very interesting is that online people seeing a Jug they are all over it! Once I've killed 2 wolves chasing the same Jug. They were firing really bad and that took them a log time. Enough to make them ate my 8 guns lead.Normaly , I'm not so concerned about accuracy because the firing pattern of the Jug is pretty wide. I concentrate only to keep the sight on the target. If I'm too close and target starts to exit my sight , I break off immediately and climb again. Low , I'm dead meat , I tested that many times. Being shoot down more than hundred time when flying below 1000 m. Usually Yaks. FW and Bf not so often. On regard to your issues :
1) Get used with it! Learn to sneak in. But this is on FR servers. Of course , offline will not work , coz the ai know you are coming from 5 miles away. If icons are on then stay high , if they decide to attack they have to climb after you. You can guess that E stays on your side.
2)Of course they turn every 5 seconds but most of the time they follow the same pattern and you can anticipate.Slow down a bit and wait for their move.
I'm not quite a dogfighter myself so maybe I'm not the one who can give you advices. If you ever see me in a dogfight , I'm the one you see taking evasive maneuvers , not the one attacking /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif


Zayets out

XyZspineZyX
08-01-2003, 02:09 PM
When attacking, your spped surplus shoul be no higher than 200 km/h. That is: bandit cruise speed about 300 km/h, your speed in dive (throtlling back) about 500 km/h. You would have only 4 s to score a hit, start firing at 200 m, first short burst (watch tracers) then longer, preferably aiming at engine/cockpit area.After passing bandit pull stick SLIGHTY back and go up, not loosing too much speed, in Fw 190 though rolled out of plane and dive AWAY (with MW50 if possible).

XyZspineZyX
08-01-2003, 02:34 PM
"Later in the war, the Germans introduced the Mk 108 30mm heavy cannon capable of firing 600 11-ounce high explosive rounds per minute. Three hits with this weapon were usually sufficient to bring down a Flying Fortress."

LOL, from http://freepages.military.rootsweb.com/~josephkennedy/German_Pilot_Perspective.htm

And I've seen LA's take 4-6 sheels from the MK108 and still fly along ;( Waaah! Patch!

XyZspineZyX
08-02-2003, 12:17 AM
PK's with 109 MG work very good. Fire from close range, fire a lot. And fire blind, if you must pull much lead. There is much ammo for it.

Rudder trim is important and especially in the K4 because it is the only 109 with rudder trim. For the rest of the 109 the ball go default almost always in centre at around 100% power. But for the K4 you must use rudder trim to fly coordinated (= more energy efficient and the bullet go where you aim the gunsight)

There is no 1 good attack speed as it can be different from one situation to another. It depend on the relative energy state and your SA and SA from the bandit. If the bandit fly at 650kph, then chasing with 700kph is not too fast. If the bandit fly at 300kph and he see you coming, then 700kph is much too fast. But if you fly at 700kph and the bandit at 100kph but he sees you not and does not or can not change course/speed/attitude, it is good attack speed. So it depends. Good speed to stay in the control zone is little bit faster than the bandit. You can judge energy state by watching closure rate. Very simple. If you gain, you are faster, if you gain fast, you are much faster. If you gain fast and you can not maneuver to react on the evasive, you are too fast.

The experienced player can use your too great energy surplus always very easily against you. And that is his goal. If you fly constantly too fast, you make it easy for the defender who see you coming. If you fly too slow you can also make it easy for the defender. So fly not too fast and not too slow and know the details and strenght of your plane (like rudder trim on the K4).