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View Full Version : do you know of any desertions on the luftwaffe to join the raf?



raaaid
03-05-2006, 07:22 AM
im sure some people would have been glad to fight for the nazis but what about the rest of good luftwaffe pilots what were their reasons to be willing to kill and die for

why they just didnt leave the luwftwffe and join the allies

djetz
03-05-2006, 07:41 AM
You make it sound so easy.

First of all, I'm pretty sure that the Geneva Convention (or some other "rules of war" type thing) actually forbids PoWs being recruited to fight for the captor's army.

There were cases of Luftwaffe flight crew defecting to the British, but the crews were kept in hiding and given new identities post-war.

Simply allowing them to join up with the RAF would have been an open invitation to spies. I mean, want to examine a new allied 'plane? Simply send over a pilot to "defect" and he can fly one right back to you. Obviously allowing ex-Luftwaffe flight crew to fly allied 'planes would be a massive security risk.

raaaid
03-05-2006, 09:07 AM
but my point is what did the luftwaffe pilots think, why did they keep fighting for such an evil system

what im asking is what they were told to keep them fighting, im sure most didnt know about nazi camps or otherwise they just wouldnt fight

i dont think pilots were forced to fight

i ask this because i have some feeling i was a luftwaffe pilot and just to think i could have helped such bastards make me sick

so what im asking is how was people cheated to fight for the nazis?

elphifou
03-05-2006, 09:25 AM
LOL this is so funny. I've just arrived on the forum, right?
First thing I see is this post's title and I think "sounds like a 'raaaid' question"... http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Well, I agree with djetz here. Sounds ok for infantry men but recruiting former enemy pilots is a dangerous bet.

Anyway, let's see what others think about it.

vanjast
03-05-2006, 09:34 AM
Just think in the war where technology secrets are paramount, you desert and join the other side.

You would be imprisoned, as you had no way of proving your loyalty, and they certainly would not give you their latest weapons to use - you might just 'skip' again.

Then back at your old home, your family would likely be rounded up by the gestapo and imprisoned as well, tortured for info they do not have, and then shot for not talking..

Not much choice I'm afraid..

csThor
03-05-2006, 09:34 AM
The only desertion which ended in the pilot flying for the RAF afterwards is a young french Unteroffizier from JG4. Ren├ę Dubois (or Dabois - I've read both versions) defected in early 1944 when he was ordered to fly a new Bf 109 G-6 to it's unit in Italy (I./JG 4). During the flight he pretended to be sick and was sent off to land at a Luftwaffe airfield. Instead he headed for an allied airfield and was interrogated thoroughly. Later he flew Spitfires for a French Squadron of the RAF.

How Dubois/Dabois came in german service is unknown to me. The only reason could be a possible german heritage (Alsace-Lorraine had been part of the 2nd German Reich after the 1870/71 war).

Final note: AFAIR Dubois/Dabois was killed in the Indochina War of the early 50s flying a chopper for the French Colonial Army.

Generally speaking there were no real deserters until late in the war. Most LW airmen - especially the fighters - weren't particularly interested in the political system but kept fighting for their homeland and their families. Sense of Duty and obedience were big parts of the upbringing of most germans - a lot of higher ups felt the discrepance between their sense of duty, the oath they had sworn (on Hitler himself, not the country!) and the feeling that Germany shouldn't be the winner of this war. A lot of folks simply threw themselves into their work and forgot about their personal doubts. Very few dared to act - those were in the group around Claus Schenk Graf von Stauffenberg. For example men like Rommel or von Kluge knew about the assassination plot, but refused to take part in it. Killing the head of state was simply out of most german officer's minds (a heritage from the times of the Prussian Kings and later German Emperors).

HotelBushranger
03-05-2006, 09:38 AM
Try to remember, the Germans were as ruthless as the Russians. Many people were shot for disobeying Nazi orders - look at Hitler, he bumped off many of his 'friend's pre and during wartime. And that German Luftwaffe CO? Can someone give me a name please. He disagreed with Hitler, and ended up having a "crash" in 43 or some-at.

And the majority of the earlier pilots were as absorbed by the propoganda as everyone else.

Zeus-cat
03-05-2006, 09:48 AM
I have often thought how difficult it must have been for many Germans to be fighting the Americans and Brits towards the end of the war. Every day you hold them off is a day the Russians have to take more German territory.

As far as defectors are concerned, the previous posts are correct; why take a chance on a defector. Manpower was not an issue once the Allies really geared up to fight. One man would make no difference in the war effort. Why risk losing an airplane to a defector, or worse, have him turn on you and kill many of your men and destroy your equipment. Get as much information from a defector as you can and then throw him in a POW camp for the rest of the war.

djetz
03-05-2006, 10:08 AM
Originally posted by raaaid:
but my point is what did the luftwaffe pilots think, why did they keep fighting for such an evil system

what im asking is what they were told to keep them fighting, im sure most didnt know about nazi camps or otherwise they just wouldnt fight

i dont think pilots were forced to fight

i ask this because i have some feeling i was a luftwaffe pilot and just to think i could have helped such bastards make me sick

so what im asking is how was people cheated to fight for the nazis?

That's a fair question. To some extent, people were "forced to fight" - in a totalitarian system, you really don't get much choice. But - if you were obviously an anti-nazi, the military wouldn't have given you the keys to expensive military technology, would they?

If you were considered potentially untrustworthy, you'd have ended up either as cannon-fodder in some infantry unit, or working in one of the many places behind the lines where you couldn't do any serious harm. The military needed plenty of truck drivers, cooks, cleaners, office staff, etc etc etc. The military has plenty of non-fighting positions to fill.

Plenty of people became disillusioned with the Nazis and deserted, but as I said, due to the security risk they went to PoW camps. A very few, genuine anti-Nazis, were recruited by the SOE and other spook agencies.

The only case of defection that I know of was the crew of a JU88 night-fighter, who delivered their plane with the new German airborne radar intact to an RAF airfield. As I said earlier, they were put into hiding and given new identities post-war.

Generally though, Germans in the military tended to either support the Nazis or to rationalise that they were fighting for Germany rather than for the Nazis. It might seem hard to believe now, but the human capacity for self-deception is very powerful. If you don't want to believe that you're working for an evil system, you'll invent reasons to not believe it.

GoToAway
03-05-2006, 11:17 AM
Originally posted by raaaid:
but my point is what did the luftwaffe pilots think, why did they keep fighting for such an evil system Because only hindsight is 20/20.

People tend to forget what actually happened in Nazi Germany. The average German wasn't party to the Holocaust--the death camps were all in Poland. The German populace was well aware of the Nazi government's anti-semitism, but through a rather irresponsible revision of history, most people seem to forget that anti-semitism was rampant and accepted in most of Europe at the time. Even some of Germany's top military leaders were in the dark about the extent of Hitler's plans (Rommel, for example. He only came to suspect the extent of things after he returned to Germany.)

To the average German, Hitler and the Nazi government represented hope. The Nazis pulled Germany up out of the poverty and weakness imposed by the Treaty of Versailles. It offered a strong and bright future to the German people.

Pilots getting into their planes were by far and large getting into them for the same reason that every British, Soviet, and American pilot did: to fight for their country. Nobody thought, "gee, I'm going to fight for an evil genocidal regime."

Furthermore, why not ask this question of the Soviet pilots? People also seem to forget that Stalin was no better than Hitler. The difference is that he won.

djetz
03-05-2006, 11:58 AM
Originally posted by GoToAway:
the death camps were all in Poland.

Dauchau is near Munich, in Bavaria. Nowhere near Poland.

Bergen-Belson: near Hannover.

Buchenwald, Nordhausen, Flossenburg, Ravensbruck, Sachsenhausen, Dora-Mittelbau: all within the borders of Germany.

Add Theresienstadt in the Sudatenland (Czechoslovakia) and Mauthausen in Austria - both part of the "Greater Reich" according to the Nazis - and it turns out that most of the death camps were, in fact, in Germany.

You might want to check, in future, before making claims like that. You could claim, I suppose, that the above-listed were not strictly death-camps in the way that Auschwitz was, but that's not much of a distinction: being worked and starved to death is not really a better way to go than the gas chambers. And dead is dead.

There is a lot of debate about exactly how much the German people knew about the camps, but it seems pretty clear that a great many of them did know, even if they rationalised them out of conciousness.

I'm not one of them people who thinks all Germans were Nazis, but keep in mind that Hitler was democratically elected when he first came to power. He became dictator later. Claiming that most Germans were against the Nazis is obviously wrong. Claiming that most Germans did not know that something evil was happening to the "untermensch" - even if they didn't know the exact details - is also wrong.


Furthermore, why not ask this question of the Soviet pilots? People also seem to forget that Stalin was no better than Hitler. The difference is that he won.

Well, you're right there. And plenty of Soviet soldiers did defect to the Germans. A lot of them tried to defect to the Allies, too: they were delivered right back to the Soviets and went straight to the GULAGs, except for those who were massacred on the spot. Stalin played the Allies, and the way the Allies sold out thier responsibilities in the name of keeping Stalin happy is one of the most shameful parts of WW2.

SnapdLikeAMutha
03-05-2006, 12:13 PM
Certainly on in the Werhmacht at least, there were many units composed of foreign troops and deserters, especially as the war dragged on. I recall reading somewhere about UK and US tropps during the liberation of Europe being suprised to find WM defensive positions being manned by Russians

See:

http://www.feldgrau.com/main1.php?ID=7

elphifou
03-05-2006, 01:36 PM
Originally posted by djetz:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by GoToAway:
the death camps were all in Poland.

Dauchau is near Munich, in Bavaria. Nowhere near Poland.

Bergen-Belson: near Hannover.

Buchenwald, Nordhausen, Flossenburg, Ravensbruck, Sachsenhausen, Dora-Mittelbau: all within the borders of Germany.

Add Theresienstadt in the Sudatenland (Czechoslovakia) and Mauthausen in Austria - both part of the "Greater Reich" according to the Nazis - and it turns out that most of the death camps were, in fact, in Germany.

</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

... and the Natzweiler-Struthof camp (France) which I visited when I was 13.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Natzweiler-Struthof

Nimits
03-05-2006, 02:06 PM
That's the problem with traitors and deserters. You want them to defect to your side, but once they do, no one (you or the enemy) can ever trust them again, since if they defected once, there's no guarantee they won't defect again . . .

AustinPowers_
03-05-2006, 03:29 PM
Originally posted by raaaid:
but my point is what did the luftwaffe pilots think, why did they keep fighting for such an evil system



Because they didn't consider it evil at the time.

elphifou
03-05-2006, 03:35 PM
"History is not what you thought. It's what you can remember".

W.C. Sellar & R.J. Yeatman,
1066 and all that, 1930

GoToAway
03-05-2006, 05:32 PM
Originally posted by djetz:
You might want to check, in future, before making claims like that. You might want to check your facts in the future before you make statements like that.


Most accounts of the Holocaust recognise six extermination camps, all located in occupied Poland. These were:

Auschwitz II (Auschwitz-Birkenau) (Auschwitz I was a concentration camp and Auschwitz III a labor camp)
Belzec
Chelmno (German: Kulmhof an der Nehr, Polish: Chelmno nad Nerem)
Majdanek
Sobib├┬│r
Treblinka

None of the facilities that you mentioned were death camps. They were labor and concentration camps.


Extermination camps are distinguished from concentration camps (such as Dachau and Belsen), which were mostly located in Germany and intended as places of incarceration and forced labour for a variety of "enemies of the state" of the Nazi regime (such as Communists and homosexuals). In the early years of the Nazi regime, many Jews were sent to these camps, but after 1942 all Jews were deported to the extermination camps.

They should also be distinguished from slave labor camps, which were set up in all German-occupied countries to exploit the labor of prisoners of various kinds, including prisoners of war. Many Jews were worked to death in these camps, but eventually the Jewish labour force, no matter how useful to the German war effort, was destined for extermination. In all Nazi camps there were very high death rates as a result of starvation, disease and exhaustion, but only the extermination camps were designed specifically for mass killing.


You could claim, I suppose, that the above-listed were not strictly death-camps in the way that Auschwitz was, but that's not much of a distinction: being worked and starved to death is not really a better way to go than the gas chambers. And dead is dead. To those interested in historical accuracy, it is an important distinction to make.


Claiming that most Germans were against the Nazis is obviously wrong. Claiming that most Germans did not know that something evil was happening to the "untermensch" - even if they didn't know the exact details - is also wrong. Which is why I claimed neither of those things.

x6BL_Brando
03-06-2006, 01:00 PM
Raaaaid (or anyone else) might find it worthwhile to read a book called Stalingrad by Antony Beevor - ISBN 0-14-024985-0.
This book deals closely with the various attitudes towards desertion from both sides of the Ostfront. While this is generally about soldiers in one of the most horrific campaigns of WW2 the attitudes of the General Staff right down to the rankers are very graphically described.

One thing that comes out clearly is the fate of not just deserters, if detected, but also their relations they left behind. A person would have to think twice about stealing an aircraft and defecting, knowing that their relatives would be imprisoned or even killed.

Another point that seems to escape your logic Raaid, is that there are other reasons that so many non-Nazis didn't take this step. Patriotism is a huge one. Professional soldiers are not necessarily political, many are not, but they fight for their countries and their families, home & hearth. And most of the combatants were so young too (I can say that because I am so old! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif ) and that's a major factor. How likely is it that a young man would willingly forget his parents and friends and flee his homeland - with a good chance of never being able to return?

It's simplistic to imagine that a deserter would be welcomed home with open arms, even though the evil regime that prompted him to go had fallen. The pressures of Stalingrad did prompt masses of desertions it's true - and the opposite armies did use them - but their conditions were mind-numbingly frightful and quite unlike the conditions that Western Front aviators experienced. The idea that an enemy pilot would be allowed to fly with his former enemies is also rather naive.

A. Beevor's book also covers the fine line that separates mass murder from the general code of an army invading a country. Not only fine, the line is also tortuous in its path. The cultural values, the racial stereotypes, the convoluted reasons why it was deemed alright to murder some but not others; it's all thoroughly discussed in this rivetting book.

B

darkhorizon11
03-06-2006, 01:35 PM
Don't forget about the ROA!

Matz0r
03-06-2006, 02:14 PM
what did the luftwaffe pilots think

If you want to get into the head of two german pilots, I recommend "Graf and Grislawski - A pair of aces" (ISBN 0-9721060-4-9). A very well written book on these two pilots which not only describe their war story but alot about their person as well.

MercilessFatBoy
03-06-2006, 05:53 PM
Originally posted by raaaid:
but my point is what did the luftwaffe pilots think, why did they keep fighting for such an evil system

what im asking is what they were told to keep them fighting, im sure most didnt know about nazi camps or otherwise they just wouldnt fight

i dont think pilots were forced to fight

i ask this because i have some feeling i was a luftwaffe pilot and just to think i could have helped such bastards make me sick

so what im asking is how was people cheated to fight for the nazis?

LMAO WHAT AN INOCENT TARD

First than all your country the many imperialist war they fought ,,, you shuld ask ur self why did your country men fight for your country if they knew they were taking over territory that was not their in the first place

raaaid
03-07-2006, 05:03 AM
my point is simple, i have dreams of myself sorrounded by hundreds of planes or the siluoete of a spit turning around me or a back machine gun man turned into a bloddy mass, i had one of the strongest deja vu in my life when i landed a paraglide in a beach

i know it sounds stupid but what id like to know is if i might have been a mean nazi in a previous life or there were good nazis who were just cheated by the propaganda

im sure very few people here would fly for the luftwaffe with their history knowledge, but then why there were so many good men eager to make the nazis won the war they were all stupid or what?

dglasal
03-07-2006, 06:11 AM
I would like to ask all of us when we discuss history, we do not apply the notion of "should have known" expectation. Even today, our means of communicating is vastly superior to the 1930/1940s (television in every home, internet, etc) and yet we have many ignorant people regarding the workings of their respective governments yet I believe all of us will defend our countries during war.

"It's my country - right or wrong"
Gosh I can't recall who said that.

elphifou
03-07-2006, 06:13 AM
Originally posted by raaaid:

i know it sounds stupid but what id like to know is if i might have been a mean nazi in a previous life or there were good nazis who were just cheated by the propaganda

It doesn't sound stupid in itself (far from it, trust me), but you have to realize nobody here will ever be able to answer your question. Hello??? For your own sake, wake up !!
Or maybe you're looking for more bashing, I dunno...http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif


im sure very few people here would fly for the luftwaffe with their history knowledge, but then why there were so many good men eager to make the nazis won the war they were all stupid or what?

Have you read people's posts so far in this thread ?
Some people took the time to answer several points related to your question, some even gave you book references. Yet, you talk as if nothing happened... http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/51.gif

Lordbutter4
03-07-2006, 08:42 AM
As best i can remember I believe Soviet army forces surrendered and later fought for the germans in numbers. There are many records of this.

As far as pilots go, im not sure. I do know however there was 1 american pilot who defected to germany. He convinced an officer he was going to ferry a p38 to a certain location, but instead landing on a LW field. He tried to join then but they never trusted him and he was imprisioned.

raaaid
03-07-2006, 11:53 AM
i just tried to play no shooting and either you shoot or you are shot at

anyhow, had the nazis won the war i would now be pleased i dream i shoot down evil jewish spits

my only question is if did pilots know about the holocaust, my opinion is they didnt like most people dont know now that aids is man made to fight against african child rate

raaaid
03-07-2006, 12:10 PM
i want to add that the only difference from the images of the holocaust of images of ethiopia are than the last one is because of the mighty allies and are in color

so just there was no better side, i think i understand it now, young people died and kill just for fun, it didnt matter what side you were at

jds1978
03-07-2006, 12:17 PM
OK, I give up....what are you talking about? http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_confused.gif

Evil Jew Spifires? AIDS in Africa? WTF?

x6BL_Brando
03-07-2006, 12:29 PM
OK, I give up....what are you talking about?

http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif This is indeed the problem with getting involved in Mr Raaid's threads. They always start off with an innocent question which provokes a few thoughtful replies, but end as a showcase for his off-the-wall ideas. No serious discussion ever takes place - and there is no return of the ball, little if any acknowledgement of any point, and a guaranteed change of tack every time a theory is disproved.

My last waste of time, I give up.

Brando

elphifou
03-07-2006, 03:13 PM
Originally posted by x6BL_Brando:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">OK, I give up....what are you talking about?

http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif This is indeed the problem with getting involved in Mr Raaid's threads. They always start off with an innocent question which provokes a few thoughtful replies, but end as a showcase for his off-the-wall ideas. No serious discussion ever takes place - and there is no return of the ball, little if any acknowledgement of any point, and a guaranteed change of tack every time a theory is disproved.

My last waste of time, I give up.

Brando </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well, believe it or not, <span class="ev_code_YELLOW">I</span> happen to understand most of what raaaid says or hints at. I don't find those ideas of his so much "off-the-wall". If each one of us had to do away with every act or idea that someone else <span class="ev_code_YELLOW">might</span> just find "off-the-wall", we all would be living a very sad life IMO.

Raaaid, to me the problem is for a reason or another, you don't like to pay much attention when people try to help you. I wasn't shooting at you. Read me again.
When you ask that type of entirely personal question, which openly unveils some intimate part of your psyche/soul, and for which we can only give you guides, NOT answers (which is much better btw), then you have to expect some criticism at best, some serious bashing at worst.

This forum isn't exactly the right place for you to ask 'some' questions... know wodda mean ?
You'll always end up making a monkey out of yourself by doing so. Sad but true. Mark my words.

Besides, some of us have listened and tried to help. So why don't you listen too ?

Regards

lairdperkins
03-07-2006, 04:25 PM
Rudolph "Get out of that Fokker you fooker" Hess.

Franzonto
03-07-2006, 07:09 PM
Originally posted by Zeus-cat:
As far as defectors are concerned, the previous posts are correct; why take a chance on a defector. Manpower was not an issue once the Allies really geared up to fight. One man would make no difference in the war effort. Why risk losing an airplane to a defector, or worse, have him turn on you and kill many of your men and destroy your equipment. Get as much information from a defector as you can and then throw him in a POW camp for the rest of the war.

Glad you're seeing the logic.


Originally posted by csThor:
Sense of Duty and obedience were big parts of the upbringing of most germans - a lot of higher ups felt the discrepance between their sense of duty, the oath they had sworn (on Hitler himself, not the country!) and the feeling that Germany shouldn't be the winner of this war. A lot of folks simply threw themselves into their work and forgot about their personal doubts. Very few dared to act - those were in the group around Claus Schenk Graf von Stauffenberg. For example men like Rommel or von Kluge knew about the assassination plot, but refused to take part in it. Killing the head of state was simply out of most german officer's minds (a heritage from the times of the Prussian Kings and later German Emperors).

Do you generally call that something bad, military obedience and sense of duty?

I just ask, because you let it sound somewhat negative, but I could be wrong...

JG52Karaya-X
03-08-2006, 02:36 AM
Originally posted by raaaid:
i know it sounds stupid but what id like to know is if i might have been a mean nazi in a previous life or there were good nazis who were just cheated by the propaganda

To me this doesn't make any sense - a Nazi is a Nazi, nothing more or less. Good and bad are just words, depending on your own point of view. On the same matter - what's the difference between a "terrorist" and a "freedom fighter"? It's your personal opinion and relative position towards the terrorist/freedom fighter - wether you are on his side or not!

As somebody else already stated, Hitler was so popular among the German population because he helped the nation out of its financial and economic crisis during the '30s, he strenghtened the German ego after the big blow suffered by the Treaty of Versailles and by starting up a big system of arms-manufacturers he helped people find an employment - that's his way to success and popularity.

And as long as people got jobs and were starting to get wealthy again they didn't care about the alarming build up of something more than just a "Wehrmacht" (i.e. means Defenseforce). You have to satisfy your elementary needs before you can start to care about more complex subjects like politics, war, ...


Regarding Luftwaffe pilots and why they kept fighting: I guess a lot of them fought for sheer national pride (as most other combatants around the world did) - they also were considered as the aristocrats and elite of the German Armed Forces. They were so proud that they normally didn't make a "Hitler Gru├č" but a normal military salute even when facing the F├╝hrer himself!

raaaid
03-08-2006, 06:42 AM
nazis and allies are the same dog with different collars, nazis made the holocaust, allies caused famine in africa, in fact the situation is no different than in the 30s, images of 20 kg children and men with swollen stomach dont get through the censorship so people just ignore the facts

why the killing of jewish wasnt ok but letting people die of famine is

again my opinion is most pilots didnt mind who was wrong and who was right i think that 20 years old jumped to the cockpits just for the sake of adventure

and i tell you something if i had the chance to jump in a plane and fight i might prefer to fight for the axis, im sick of listening about an holocaust 60 years old when at this very same moment many more people is dieing daily than then because the system wants it so

i started this thread trying to find some sense to my dreams of being a luftwaffe pilot and regretting it, now i know that if its true i was i did it for fun and i was in the sincere side, as evil as the other one but less hypocrital

my question of why nazis didnt defect is clear to me now, hitler was not evil because of the same reason bush or blair arent, propaganda

images or 20 kg people dint go through the media as images of 20 kg people dont get through the media now

you bash me i tell you that voting for the leaders that promote famine in africa like bush or blair is no different than voting for hitler, you tell your opinion i tell mine, i got a quiet soul, the only time i ever voted was for the very left who want to open borderlines

of course ive read every answer but im not buying any book and i dont think hitler voters supported mass murder of children as bush or blair votters dont stand for mass letting die of children in africa

so i think the reason tu support an evil system is the use the system makes of people fear in the 30s fear of the dangerous jewish now the fear of muslim terrorist

now i understand that if ever fought for the luftwaffe it was not because i was mean it was because i was stupid, i would have been as stupid if i had done it for the allies, if i didnt think this way i wouldnt have learnt from my stupidity

i suppose this is what makes this game so great i can have the fun of dogfighting without killing nor dying so is even better than real life

dont get me wrong im not trying to recall attention but im as good as a person as can be but life makes me sad, ive never done anything bad in my life which led me to this so im wondering if may be it was in a previous life, i think my mistake was racism as a nazi pilot thats why i want a mixed race society even though im racist i dont follow what my heart likes of no othe races around me but i follow what my heart says is good and is we are all the same

JG52Karaya-X
03-08-2006, 07:21 AM
Dude, stop taking whatever you do... http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/blink.gif

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/354.gif

Bartolomeo_ita
03-08-2006, 07:27 AM
evil system ... http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

raaaid
03-08-2006, 07:28 AM
by the way so you see i listen ill coment the only thing that hasnt left me indifferent or even make me feel bad in this thread has been the info that the luftwaffe didnt make the nazi salute

just for that has been worth gone starting the thread

jds1978
03-08-2006, 07:53 AM
Originally posted by raaaid:
nazis and allies are the same dog with different collars, nazis made the holocaust, allies caused famine in africa, in fact the situation is no different than in the 30s, images of 20 kg children and men with swollen stomach dont get through the censorship so people just ignore the facts

why the killing of jewish wasnt ok but letting people die of famine is

again my opinion is most pilots didnt mind who was wrong and who was right i think that 20 years old jumped to the cockpits just for the sake of adventure

and i tell you something if i had the chance to jump in a plane and fight i might prefer to fight for the axis, im sick of listening about an holocaust 60 years old when at this very same moment many more people is dieing daily than then because the system wants it so

i started this thread trying to find some sense to my dreams of being a luftwaffe pilot and regretting it, now i know that if its true i was i did it for fun and i was in the sincere side, as evil as the other one but less hypocrital

my question of why nazis didnt defect is clear to me now, hitler was not evil because of the same reason bush or blair arent, propaganda

images or 20 kg people dint go through the media as images of 20 kg people dont get through the media now

you bash me i tell you that voting for the leaders that promote famine in africa like bush or blair is no different than voting for hitler, you tell your opinion i tell mine, i got a quiet soul, the only time i ever voted was for the very left who want to open borderlines

of course ive read every answer but im not buying any book and i dont think hitler voters supported mass murder of children as bush or blair votters dont stand for mass letting die of children in africa

so i think the reason tu support an evil system is the use the system makes of people fear in the 30s fear of the dangerous jewish now the fear of muslim terrorist

now i understand that if ever fought for the luftwaffe it was not because i was mean it was because i was stupid, i would have been as stupid if i had done it for the allies, if i didnt think this way i wouldnt have learnt from my stupidity

i suppose this is what makes this game so great i can have the fun of dogfighting without killing nor dying so is even better than real life

dont get me wrong im not trying to recall attention but im as good as a person as can be but life makes me sad, ive never done anything bad in my life which led me to this so im wondering if may be it was in a previous life, i think my mistake was racism as a nazi pilot thats why i want a mixed race society even though im racist i dont follow what my heart likes of no othe races around me but i follow what my heart says is good and is we are all the same


Granted, i understand maybe 25% of what you just posted....but i think i got enough to say you are wrong.

To equate Fascism with Modern Democratic Politics in the US/UK shows a profound lack of understanding and/or naiviety.

You might want to drop the entire Holocaust/Famine in Africa schtick as well because it's a false dichotomy.

Up next you will be posting the entire "It was just an innocent question" jive followed by the "Victimization Card." I ain't buying it.

There are a few things that really irk me, and one of them are people who manipulate others. Read into that what you want

raaaid
03-08-2006, 07:55 AM
when theres something related with wwii i discuss it here with some friends like elphifou

unluckily i cant discuss it with my class companions because there are two groups, one in which theres a guy who said you could recognize what inmigrants were like because they were the same color than the gypsies and the other group in which i saw today a guy with nazi propaganda inside the book

so no friends to comment this with but here

elphifou you wonder how i keep up with all the bashing but the thing is im much less racist after writting this topic,i understand the biggest mistake of most luftwaffe pilots were racism

somehow it just came to my mind jokes about black people piloting

jds1978
03-08-2006, 09:32 AM
Originally posted by raaaid:
when theres something related with wwii i discuss it here with some friends like elphifou

unluckily i cant discuss it with my class companions because there are two groups, one in which theres a guy who said you could recognize what inmigrants were like because they were the same color than the gypsies and the other group in which i saw today a guy with nazi propaganda inside the book

so no friends to comment this with but here

elphifou you wonder how i keep up with all the bashing but the thing is im much less racist after writting this topic,i understand the biggest mistake of most luftwaffe pilots were racism

somehow it just came to my mind jokes about black people piloting


You are missing the point. what is enraging is the barely concealed trolling and the passive-agressive behaivior. Not to mention the cryptic comments that you can hide behind as an
"intellectual discussion"

CornbreadPattie
03-08-2006, 12:31 PM
Originally posted by raaaid:
my point is simple, i have dreams of myself sorrounded by hundreds of planes or the siluoete of a spit turning around me or a back machine gun man turned into a bloddy mass, i had one of the strongest deja vu in my life when i landed a paraglide in a beach

i know it sounds stupid but what id like to know is if i might have been a mean nazi in a previous life or there were good nazis who were just cheated by the propaganda


Wow you were definately a fighter pilot who got lots of pretty French girls - in a previous life. This makes me so jealous. In my previous life I was an opera singer. My recurring dreams are just nightmares!

But lucky you

Old_Canuck
03-08-2006, 01:18 PM
Originally posted by raaaid:
i just tried to play no shooting and either you shoot or you are shot at

anyhow, had the nazis won the war i would now be pleased i dream i shoot down evil jewish spits

my only question is if did pilots know about the holocaust, my opinion is they didnt like most people dont know now that aids is man made to fight against african child rate

Words from an old Jew that might sum up this thread:

"Do not answer a fool according to his folly,
Lest you also be like him." -- Solomon c. 965 - 922 BC

raaaid
03-08-2006, 03:28 PM
dont get me wrong i dispise the nazis as much as a person can

before i used to think there are times you have to fight

well the question i make myself is would be worth to fight for the jewish children when the other system is gonna kill the african children?

if we lived in a good system i would no doubt it

but after thinking about the images of 20 kg mothers feeding their babies with their breasts in ethiopia 20 years ago(now they are censored)
i just think that if i had the chance to fight for the allies or the nazis i wouldnt do it for either side i just would run away with some girl and let the wolrd commit suicide if it wants so

NAFP_supah
03-08-2006, 04:47 PM
To make distinctions between labour and concentration camps is just stupid and cruel. Do you think the people who worked to death on starvation rations building Vengeance weapons had a different fate to those sent to the gas chambers within minutes of arriving? These people were worked to death over many months and those that were liberated by the allies were little more then living skelletons. Think about that next time you drewl over a porsche, that nice family that had their own concentration camps for their factories in which thousands died.

elphifou
03-08-2006, 05:58 PM
raaaid, I don't have the time to reply on every point you made lastly - I'm soon going to bed..

Anyway, firstly sincere thanks for calling me a friend. I appreciate it.
That being said, don't take it badly but just as I said in another thread, I have neither friends nor enemies in this forum. I think you'll understand why if you think about it seriously. Just like (almost) anyone else, I just pick up what I like, leave out what I don't, and try to participate and help when I can. Period.
What's more I don't recall having what you can call a discussion over a specific topic such as Nazism with you. But again, that may just happen any time in the future. I'll be glad to do it with you just as with anyone else...

The reason why I drew your attention over a certain book is the fact that you sometimes mention events or phenomena which apparently leave you alone with unanswered metaphysical questions.
You and me could discuss those questions if you want, but I think I've made it clear that I don't think this forum is the right place to do so. You won't get any comment about this (or anything remotely connected to it) from me here.

Now, that is an entirely different topic from what has been discussed here in this thread. And that's the problem: right from the start, you make a statement implying two very different questions on two very different topics. One is historical, the other one is spiritual/metaphysical.
Your mixing up those two fields of reflection causes people to misunderstand your point(s) or question(s). I for a start don't agree with you on many points and have to make an effort to get your point, but as long as some others make my point for me, I'm not going to speak.

What I was trying to tell you (as a somewhat friendly warning) is :
1) for God's sake make yourself clear
2) don't expect anyone to be able to answer such questions as "I want to know if I was a German pilot in a previous life" (which I find interesting but you have to understand that other people on this planet don't even believe in "previous lives") and at the same time accept your rather sweeping statements about Nazism and evil systems and good and bad and all that fascinating but immensely complex stuff.
IMO this is where you expose yourself to some bashing. But that's your problem, agreed.

As for your metaphysical question, no one but you will finally answer it, be it after years of reflection, discussion and meditation. As I've been browsing this forum for longer than I've been a registered member, I've noticed how regularly confusing your posts are. On the very same day you quite capable of first saying "Newton was wrong" and then "please help me I don't know if I was a German pilot etc etc"... http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

One piece of advice : put your ego aside and listen.

regards

La7_brook
03-09-2006, 12:02 AM
Originally posted by F16_Matz_:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">what did the luftwaffe pilots think

If you want to get into the head of two german pilots, I recommend "Graf and Grislawski - A pair of aces" (ISBN 0-9721060-4-9). A very well written book on these two pilots which not only describe their war story but alot about their person as well. </div></BLOCKQUOTE> yip i 2nd that http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/10.gif