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View Full Version : Closed cockpit gunnery - Help, I suck ... and badly !



jayhall0315
09-06-2008, 10:07 AM
Hey guys, recently I have branched out of being a green noob and only flying the La-7 and similar planes and I am now spending most of my time on closed cockpit servers with planes like the Bf 109 G2 and FW-190s. Problem is, I dont have Track IR and cant see worth a damn in either series of planes and my gunnery sucks. The dang instrument panel prevents me from setting up the correct lead with my shots and so I have to make sometimes as many as five passes before I get the enemy to go down. .. and to make matters worse, I see guys who hit accurately almost every time. So my questions are:

1 - Obviously, how do I get better (aside from practice, duh) at leading the shots on an enemy when my lower windshield abutment/instrument panel is blocking my view of where the enemy as I lead the shot (ie, I cannot see them when I fire ahead of them) ?

2 - Aside from Track IR, what is the best mod for looking around in closed cockpit.

3 - How are guys hitting shot after shot when they have the same problems as me (yes, I know I suck, but there is not that much difference). I swear, after what I have seen for some guys, its as if there is a mod out there that makes closed cockpits become open cockpits for people lucky enough to have the mod.

Jay

idonno
09-06-2008, 10:22 AM
"2 - Aside from Track IR, what is the best mod for looking around in closed cockpit."

Some people do quite well using the mouse with their non-flying hand to look around and track the enemy. I'm sure it takes a fair bit of practice, but certainly it's doable.

Congratulations on you graduation. ~S~

rnzoli
09-06-2008, 10:35 AM
1. anticipate - if you know the flight envelope of your target, blind shots are quite reliable, especially under 150 meters
I was surprised how easy it was to hit turning Hurricanes in a Fw-190A5 - just get close and then roll 90 degrees, pull stick slightly, wait till target disappears under nose, fire, roll level, continue climbing out (zoom climb), wait for Enemy Aircraft Destroyed message http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_cool.gif

2. joystick hatswitch, mouse, keypad (fastest!), Freelook, and the like

3. see point one, I can't say on mods, but before you assume there is one, a track would be nice to have to see what you mean

sw25th
09-06-2008, 10:43 AM
they visualize where you are and using basic geometry in their head they are getting the shots to hit. they account for bullet drop target range speed differences and other factors.

plus they probably have about 100-200 hours in the closed cockpit

Jaws2002
09-06-2008, 11:51 AM
Originally posted by jayhall0315:
Hey guys, recently I have branched out of being a green noob and only flying the La-7 and similar planes and I am now spending most of my time on closed cockpit servers with planes like the Bf 109 G2 and FW-190s. Problem is, I dont have Track IR and cant see worth a damn in either series of planes and my gunnery sucks. The dang instrument panel prevents me from setting up the correct lead with my shots and so I have to make sometimes as many as five passes before I get the enemy to go down. .. and to make matters worse, I see guys who hit accurately almost every time. So my questions are:

1 - Obviously, how do I get better (aside from practice, duh) at leading the shots on an enemy when my lower windshield abutment/instrument panel is blocking my view of where the enemy as I lead the shot (ie, I cannot see them when I fire ahead of them) ?



have a good look at your cockpit and try to understand where you have more glass closser to the gunsight. Try to bring your target to the gunsight that way. In fw-190 you can get very acurate deflections by bringing the target from the right window into the sight. Try to anticipate it's path and roll the plane to get the target from the side you like.
Also you can experiment with open pit and track record. Record the track then in replay stop the track before shooting and togle between pit on and off to get a better understanding of the required deflection.
and practice. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif



2 - Aside from Track IR, what is the best mod for looking around in closed cockpit.

Before trackIR I used FB view plus for a while it was not bad.



3 - How are guys hitting shot after shot when they have the same problems as me (yes, I know I suck, but there is not that much difference). I swear, after what I have seen for some guys, its as if there is a mod out there that makes closed cockpits become open cockpits for people lucky enough to have the mod.

Jay

I suggest you don't go there. Acusing people of cheating or hacking the game won't help with your shooting and won't make you a popular guy online.
This game came seven years ago and there are many people here flying it since day one.
You tend to get better at things you do over and over again for years.
Did you look at the old il2 movies Butchered or Legend the bf109?
There are people that could shoot like cold blooded robots years before any IL-2 hack came out.
Some people have more experience and some people are simply better then others.

I am sub average in shooting skills, but from some angles and positions I can hit almost every time. Is just the thousands of hours of experience nothing else.

In the end i'd say is experience that you need. concentrate your training in exactly what you need, keep checking your tracks to see why you hit and why you didn't, and you'll get it right.

TinyTim
09-06-2008, 12:24 PM
Originally posted by jayhall0315:
1 - Obviously, how do I get better (aside from practice, duh) at leading the shots on an enemy when my lower windshield abutment/instrument panel is blocking my view of where the enemy as I lead the shot (ie, I cannot see them when I fire ahead of them) ?

Record tracks when online and then repeatedly review them from all possible angles especially the missed shoots. Firstly refresh your memory about the situation by looking from the cockpit, and afterwards from as many other views as possible. This method will give you a clear idea on how to improve your deflection instinct, by showing you where and how far away your bullets missed their target.

general_kalle
09-06-2008, 12:44 PM
i dont open fire that often if the target is under covere by the cocpit but i find it surprising when i hit simply by pulling hard and opening up everything, if your close and you are pulling back the same direktion as the enemy you will very likely hit him.

steiner562
09-06-2008, 12:45 PM
Put a button on your joystick for the command "toggle fov",I find it lets me line up shots better for both deflection and a straight shots.

Stingray333
09-06-2008, 02:51 PM
Originally posted by jayhall0315:
3 - How are guys hitting shot after shot when they have the same problems as me (yes, I know I suck, but there is not that much difference). I swear, after what I have seen for some guys, its as if there is a mod out there that makes closed cockpits become open cockpits for people lucky enough to have the mod.

Jay

I remember having this problem... When I first started I felt I couldn't do anything without the cockpit off, and flying with the cockpit on I felt blind. Now that I've been at it for a bit longer, flying without the cockpit on just sucks! no info! no variometer, no RPMs, and especially, no slip indicator! How do you overcome it and make those shots? I think someone will have a lot to say on the matter, for me, the answer is simply: flying better.

There were a few concepts that really helped out, I think the main one is the idea of "lag pursuit", that is, rather than flying with the pipper always in front of the target to make that deflection shot, keeping the pipper slightly behind them, so that the enemy is always in your field of view. Sure, it might take you a few seconds more to close in for the shot, but you keep them in sight and its a lot harder for them to shake you. Your also typically not turning as hard and not burning as much E

Another concept that helped me out was the idea of vertical separation and maintaining an advantage. If the target is in front of me and jinks and breaks hard, and is going to be heading into the blind spot below my engine cowl, rather than following directly at them and trying to always maintain that gun solution, I will break off, gain some vertical separation, estimate where they will be, then drop back down on them. This way you are maintaining an E advantage, and can swoop back down on them rather than wasting your E by turning-and-burning trying to keep the gun pipper on them following their every turn and jink.

If the enemy is leaving your field of view, i.e. going under your low 6 or low 12 o'clock, I think its better to estimate where they are going to be, position yourself in such a way to maintain your advantange and then re-engage rather than matching their maneuvers directly and trying to keep your pipper on them.

From watching myself in my early days, and my friends whom I've watched play with the cockpit off, it seems like the mindset that develops when flying with the cockpit off is setting up more for snapshots with the enemy moving from the low to high across the screen rather than getting into a real position of superiority where you can get a longer firing times to increase the "lethality" of the shot, not saying your doing this, just my observation.

Another thing to keep in mind is that real pilots typically *hated* going inverted, because all the dirt and anything lose in the cockpit would fall up into their faces, and it is nearly impossible to position yourself on the gunsight to make that shot. I know we don't have these issues when flying in the simulator, but still, think to yourself: How often am I pulling the trigger when I am inverted, or in a "poor" flight position.. am I upside down, pointed up, draining E, straining to make that one snap shot, how often am I shooting while turning? Turning while skidding? Having to skid the rudder from side to side to "spray" bullets across the target.

As the suggestion above says, being able to change your FOV on your stick is very handy. I spend 95% of my flying in the widest field of view, getting the largest view of the sky as possible. 4% of the time I am in the "normal field of view" to maybe zoom in and get a better shot, and maybe 1% of the time I am zoomed in all the way to make the shot, but not very often, the loss of situational awareness is not worth it.

So, there it is, just a few things from my experience, I am by far not an ace online, but I hope these provide some insight

Stingray

jayhall0315
09-07-2008, 05:09 AM
Thanks for the detailed reply Stingray. I will be working on some of the things you mentioned.

Jay

dirkpit7
09-07-2008, 07:28 AM
Bf-109 and FW190 are not the easiest planes to practice gunnery because they have poor gunsight view. Tempest and F4U are probably best in this regard. F6F and Hurricane are good too.

Pablo_uk
09-07-2008, 08:42 AM
Trackir won'nt help you if the target is below your cockpit(below your FOV). The game un-modded only supports 2 DOF so although you can look around the cockpit you cant actually move up/down or side to side. To counter this you need to anticipate your foe's flight as has already been stated.

When i switched from wonder woman view i couldnt hit anything. Basically practice, practice and practice some more. I fly 109 G2 and i find the view fine, when i fly 190 i suck and cant hit anything so now you can probably understand why the argument about the 190 bar.

Just keep at it and you will become more aware of your surroundings.

Flying IL2 online as [^]Pablo
Lockon as 104th_Ghost

VW-IceFire
09-07-2008, 09:17 AM
Another thing you can try is to alter your tactics. Most people when tracking a plane for a shot use whats called "lead pursuit" in that they try and cut inside the turn of their opponent. Often that is a mistake...cut down the angle of deflection by using a "lag pursuit" and don't follow the guy but focus on end up on the outside of his turn and then cut back in. It lows the angle of deflection and puts him back in your gunsight rather than in the cockpit instruments.

That or you sight the guy, pull lead, and let off a burst. I'd say a 1/4th of my kills are made blind.

X32Wright
09-07-2008, 10:18 AM
All good tips another is to draw an imaginary line that your enemy path is taking based on their 'relative energy state' before they disappeared inot the fuselage. This is specially easy to do with german planes because u just basicaly 'paint' the tracer inot the plane even if you dont see it based on the way they were flying a few sec ago.

Finally the good flyers that can do this, started in FR or in Closed Pit server when they started playing the game so shooting this way is quite natural. This is one of the reasons I told you that 'open pits' is a bad habit to have http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif If you started with FR (closed pit and no externals) adjusting to open pit (with externals) is a lot easier to do.

Stingray333
09-07-2008, 11:08 AM
Originally posted by X32Wright:
All good tips another is to draw an imaginary line that your enemy path is taking based on their 'relative energy state' before they disappeared inot the fuselage. This is specially easy to do with german planes because u just basicaly 'paint' the tracer inot the plane even if you dont see it based on the way they were flying a few sec ago.

Finally the good flyers that can do this, started in FR or in Closed Pit server when they started playing the game so shooting this way is quite natural. This is one of the reasons I told you that 'open pits' is a bad habit to have http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif If you started with FR (closed pit and no externals) adjusting to open pit (with externals) is a lot easier to do.

A good tip, I find myself doing this quite often. I found it amazing how well it worked to draw an imaginary line along the fuselage of the target up through the front panel into the windscreen. Doing that versus simply "estimating" where the plane would pop out sure makes a huge difference, I guess its the little things that make all the differences.

However, I must admit, my timing with this technique still needs some work, as, especially when the plane is close and is going to appear in front of you from under the nose, I am simply amazed at how early sometimes it is necessary to shoot to get hits!

My gunnery practice lately has mainly been practicing with the peashooters, a.k.a the machine guns on the BF-109s. I was finding that using the cannons primarily to get kills resulted in me mainly using snapshots, or getting hits from the rear and relying on the shear power of the canon to do the work.

Using the machine guns I found that I really need to get a gunnery solutions which lands a lot of bullets on the target, and is requiring much more accurate firing, for longer times.

Is it just me, or are the .50 cal weapons of the US planes just simply awesome? It seems like just a short burst from the 4 .50's of the F4U will turn a BF109 into a pile of scrap metal in the sky, and there is a ton of ammo!

Stingray

X32Wright
09-07-2008, 12:34 PM
The 50 cals are deadly specially if ur good with SUSTAINED deflection shots, it will damage a 109's engine quickly if not take out ur wings. I have enormous respect for a plane that has 50cals from Buffalo to P-40 to Mustangs and Jugs.

We got A-9 for that tho to match LOL

As for the 109's machine guns, YES i do that too, damage with machine gun and finish off with one shot of cannon.

jayhall0315
09-07-2008, 01:15 PM
Well guys, I hate to admit it, but with the FW 190, I often fishtail the rudder a little bit. Although I hate spray and pray, especially from new guys who try to hit me head on, I find that the FW's guns are so powerful that if I just fishtail for about a 1-2 sec burst, i usally inflict enough damage to slow the guy down. Then I just close and finish.

Unfortunately, that tactic does not work very well with the Bf 109.

Jay

Erkki_M
09-08-2008, 01:21 AM
Of course, snapshooting with an FW190 is great fun (if you know how to aim half blind), but in FR, as it was in real life, it is better attack only those enemies who cant see you. Get high, with a wingmate in voice comms, and attack those poor tommies/fritzies climbing to you / flying straight or, the best, flying straight and climbing below you:

start the dive 5-6 sec after your wingman / tell your wingman to follow you 5-6 sec after you. If the bandit has noticed you coming, he sometimes, after evading, zooms after you, desperately trying to get get a shot - doing this, he will be a target drone hanging in the air for the 2nd guy diving. If he doesnt see you coming the first guy may blast his brains out. Then zoom back to 8000m.

Theres usually no need for deflection shooting in FR... If you find yourself in a situation where you'd need to hit from a very high angle you have usually done something wrong. Or you're just having fun in an FW. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_cool.gif

Deflection shooting in a 109, on spits vs. 109s. After the 3rd kill I just fly around firing at P39s far away with MGs only, so you may as well stop watching...:
http://mbnet.fi/erkki_m/spitsvs109sbf109G23.ntrk

http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif


EDIT: as sw25th said, in addition to controllers and a good rig (tho when I recorded that track I didnt yet have rudder pedals - I played 6 years without touching the rudder but on takeoff and landing (z & x on the kayboard), experience, like my 6+ years and probably more than 4000 hours, surely do help!

EDIT2: I use mouse and the stick's hat to look around. I have edited the conf.ini so that the pilot's head turns instantaneously when looking around with the hat. I'm not going to buy TrackIR or a throttle... ever... http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

X32Wright
09-08-2008, 01:57 AM
Even in the FW u dont spray and pray, sure it has alot of ammo but still ur crazy to use fishtailing just to get a damage.

The FW's guns should be used for instant DEATH of pilot,wing or engine. This is why its was called 'The Butcher Bird'. The FW is a long english sword and functions as such. The 109 tho is more like a saber or samurai sword. It is REACH vs Precision, one is good for close quarters the other is for long distance strikes.

You cannot apply one technique to another.