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DKoor
04-13-2008, 02:32 PM
Lately I've been flying late war setup online, and I find it interesting.
Of course since I flew mostly P-51D, I would like to know some stuff from you guys with more experience.
I can fight successfully vs most axis planes in this setup, except FW-190D which I feel is on par with the P-51D.

My favorite P-51 variant is P-51C, in game, with Malcolm hood http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_cool.gif.

But to get on topic...

Now... what kind of specific advantages P-51D may hold vs FW-190D in game?

- Can I effectively out-turn Langnase in a fair turn fight (level)? Instant turn (P-51D has absolutely stunning instant turn in game on high speeds, I doubt any of his oppos can match it)? Prolonged turn fight?
- Can I outzoom it with equal energy state?
- Can I outdive it?

I usually take 25% or 50% fuel, because full fuel load for P-51D impacts Mustangs performance, and besides I mostly don't wanna fly & fight for hours anyway.

Thanks for any input http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif.

JuHa-
04-13-2008, 02:59 PM
Fly higher than ~6000m and you'll have the aces in your hand.

However, lower I'd remember following differences:
-P51D has better zoom climb, but worse continued (110%+WEP)
-with 25% fuel (maybe too with 50%) P51D turns a little bit better

-D9 accelerates better
-D9 rolls better at slow/medium speeds, high speed rolling about the same

Overall, they're (D9 vs P51D) pretty closely matched in an even dogfight at
medium altitude. At low D9 may have some advantage (speed, acc.), at high up 51 rules

Given the weapons/DMs of the containers, P51 has a glass jaw but D9 looses all
the speed from hits to the wings. Also, .50s are good for disabling controls so..
it's quite ok on this too. D9 is better for quick kills, but 51s can disable
the D9s too.

VW-IceFire
04-13-2008, 03:40 PM
Turn wise the P-51 should have the FW190D-9 in most situations. High speed turns are going to be similar but the P-51 seems to have the advantage as the speeds decrease...particularly closer to the stall with combat flaps out (FW190s seem to benefit very little from combat flaps...I almost never use them).

D-9 is going to hold advantages in being able to rapidly execute rolls and any maneuvers requiring a roll while the P-51Ds roll rate is only competitive at higher speeds.

P-51 should be generally faster once you're at a medium altitude.

Its a really solid match between these two. The differences are small and pilot skill/positioning really decides the battle.

vanir
04-13-2008, 06:57 PM
I don't know if it helps but historically American pilots noted the D-9 was the best German fighter they encountered. Pretty much everything else has been cited as variously inferior to the P-51 (one hell of a plane). The D-9 they said was en par.

Stiletto-
04-13-2008, 09:07 PM
A friend and I joined up online a few months back to test out the 2 aircraft in a number of trials, we switched aircraft and redid the tests. I must say that we were a bit different in terms of pilot experience and I was able to greatly gain altitude and distance no matter what aircraft I was in, similar results in a turning radius test, but that test was really close. Regardless of the pilots ability, I would agree that these aircraft are a very close match on most flying characteristics, and indeed, it probably comes down to the pilot, as it did in the tests we ran. But in an extended dive and dive into a zoom climb the 51 eeked out a little bit of a lead on both test runs. Still it wasn't that far out and away. Obviously altitude is a factor, problem the biggest factor of them all when comparing the two aircraft. I can easily see someone flying a P-51 D for the allies on an overpopulated server, switching to blue to even the teams out with this 190-D and taking to it like water.

Xiolablu3
04-13-2008, 09:49 PM
Originally posted by vanir:
I don't know if it helps but historically American pilots noted the D-9 was the best German fighter they encountered. Pretty much everything else has been cited as variously inferior to the P-51 (one hell of a plane). The D-9 they said was en par.


Me262 http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/10.gif

hsj41
04-14-2008, 12:13 AM
Prop Planes not jets [Xiolablu3]P-51 greatest plane of all time it can do it all. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/11.gif

DKoor
04-14-2008, 12:59 AM
Also P-51 armament is sufficient to disable German fighters, especially Messerschmitt, which in 9 out of 10 attacks (1st pass) are so crippled that they either can't fly long before they crash or are destroyed at spot.
One more big minus for Messer is that it can't escape from P-51 on high speed when being attacked (jumped) by a P-51, while FW-190 still has an option to evade at high speed then dive.
Bf-109 usually gets destroyed in such scenario because of high speed lockup controls.

FW-190 is a different story, to destroy it you need one concentrated burst, but scattered burst all over 190 structure area would do a good job too to put it effectively out of fight.

Also, Mustang Mk.III which I personally regard as best piston in game as it outclasses practically everything on the axis side except Me-262... it is so fast and I have a feeling (more than a feeling TBH) that it is also more maneuverable than a P-51D.

I'm quite confident that Mk.III can outturn every FW-190 type in the game on 25% fuel load.
I'm not sure for P-51D, I don't have much flight time in that aircraft, so it's good to see your experiences http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif .

DKoor
04-14-2008, 01:05 AM
Originally posted by VW-IceFire:
High speed turns are going to be similar but the P-51 seems to have the advantage as the speeds decrease...particularly closer to the stall with combat flaps out (FW190s seem to benefit very little from combat flaps...I almost never use them). Nice to know that... so I can then drop combat flaps to a good use in a right time when in desperate low level dogfight with a FW-190.

DKoor
05-19-2008, 04:23 PM
Wow... what an experience...
I couldn't outturn the FW-190D in a P-51 (from what appears to be a slightly better initial position) even after I gave it a good burst.

Good thing is I could run... and have some friendlies to help me.
Well... I will join up with some buddies online to really test this stuff (P-51D vs FW-190D in sustained level turn).

Gonna review teh track now http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif .

DKoor
05-19-2008, 04:29 PM
And yes... 2-3mins after the fight I ran out of fuel, I was on def armament too (I wasn't damaged at all) http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif .

Metatron_123
05-19-2008, 04:30 PM
I must agree that the Mustang III is the best P-51 in the game.

It is in fact so good, you hardly feel the reduced armament.

One well aimed burst will set a Bf-109 on fire.

VW-IceFire
05-19-2008, 04:32 PM
Originally posted by DKoor:
Wow... what an experience...
I couldn't outturn the FW-190D in a P-51 (from what appears to be a slightly better initial position) even after I gave it a good burst.

Good thing is I could run... and have some friendlies to help me.
Well... I will join up with some buddies online to really test this stuff (P-51D vs FW-190D in sustained level turn).

Gonna review teh track now http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif .
Hrrmmm you should be able to out turn a 190D-9 I think. It'll be very close...if your opponent was good then that may make the difference. Also lag/lead pursuit position can make it look like he's out turning you depending on how closely you follow him. The combat flaps should have helped too...but both of you have to keep your speed up and if you get into a turn fight where speeds have dropped and you both need to make more speed quickly...the D-9 is going to do better with more power on tap.

DKoor
05-19-2008, 04:36 PM
Originally posted by Metatron_123:
I must agree that the Mustang III is the best P-51 in the game.

It is in fact so good, you hardly feel the reduced armament.

One well aimed burst will set a Bf-109 on fire. Poor Bf-109's! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/10.gif

Now I see that I haven't whined not one tiny bit ever about them...

They are inferior in-game in just about everything to a FW-190... after one P-51 pass @ unaware 109 I'm pretty sure in 9/10 cases that he'll end up in dirt.

And that cannot be said at all for FW-190... thing is quite resistant to 50cal unless you converge it. The best thing to aim at FW are wings. And in deflection - engine.

With 109 I get flames, cut of fuselage, controls disabled etc. etc. but with 190 I get.... fuel leak http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif .

DKoor
05-19-2008, 04:40 PM
Originally posted by VW-IceFire:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by DKoor:
Wow... what an experience...
I couldn't outturn the FW-190D in a P-51 (from what appears to be a slightly better initial position) even after I gave it a good burst.

Good thing is I could run... and have some friendlies to help me.
Well... I will join up with some buddies online to really test this stuff (P-51D vs FW-190D in sustained level turn).

Gonna review teh track now http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif .
Hrrmmm you should be able to out turn a 190D-9 I think. It'll be very close...if your opponent was good then that may make the difference. Also lag/lead pursuit position can make it look like he's out turning you depending on how closely you follow him. The combat flaps should have helped too...but both of you have to keep your speed up and if you get into a turn fight where speeds have dropped and you both need to make more speed quickly...the D-9 is going to do better with more power on tap. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>TBH Ice, I haven't waited for long in that turnfight; from what seemed to looks like a position where he gained some space on me I disengaged!

Because I have quite a lot experience in such cases; if you don't disengage at time usually you wont live long http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif ; if you disengage at time you just may live long enough to receive some help (considering planes involved)... because I bet that FW, which received some bullets from me moments earlier is still faster @ deck than my P-51 on fumes... and I don't even want to calculate his better acceleration...

Yeah I'm jinxed that much http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif .

HayateAce
05-19-2008, 04:44 PM
FW DM is ancient, crude and overblown.

Kind of describes several forum members.

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-tongue.gif

Metatron_123
05-19-2008, 04:45 PM
DKoor, for some reason I still prefer Bf-109s to Fw-190s most of the time. Very good power to weight ratio, climbrate =http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/heart.gif

I do agree that the Fw-190 will bring it's pilot home more intact though... http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

Jaws2002
05-19-2008, 04:47 PM
When going at eachother in a close turnfight this two planes are a bit different at slower speed. The Pony will "float on flaps" better and the D9 will "hang in the prop" better. Is alays a good fight between this two.

DKoor
05-19-2008, 05:03 PM
Originally posted by Metatron_123:
DKoor, for some reason I still prefer Bf-109s to Fw-190s most of the time. Very good power to weight ratio, climbrate =http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/heart.gif

I do agree that the Fw-190 will bring it's pilot home more intact though... http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/agreepost.gif

I feel 100% the same. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/inlove.gif

DKoor
05-19-2008, 05:05 PM
Originally posted by Jaws2002:
When going at eachother in a close turnfight this two planes are a bit different at slower speed. The Pony will "float on flaps" better and the D9 will "hang in the prop" better. Is alays a good fight between this two. Yeah IIRC I remember him doing that prop thing a lot, and also pointing his nose low afterwards - rinse and repeat... while I pumped the elevator trim and engaged combat flaps (I remembered Ice's words http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif) .

M_Gunz
05-19-2008, 05:25 PM
Originally posted by DKoor:
[Poor Bf-109's! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/10.gif

Now I see that I haven't whined not one tiny bit ever about them...

They are inferior in-game in just about everything to a FW-190...

Try 1:1 of those at under 300kph, maybe under 380kph as well.

Metatron_123
05-19-2008, 05:39 PM
No doubt about it...

DKoor
05-19-2008, 05:52 PM
Originally posted by M_Gunz:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by DKoor:
[Poor Bf-109's! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/10.gif

Now I see that I haven't whined not one tiny bit ever about them...

They are inferior in-game in just about everything to a FW-190...

Try 1:1 of those at under 300kph, maybe under 380kph as well. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>Is it going to work like Bf-109 vs I-153 thing? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/34.gif

stalkervision
05-19-2008, 06:28 PM
I like the looks of the p-52b/c with the framed canopy for some strange reason. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_confused.gif http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/3/3b/NorthAmericanP-51BMustang.jpg

stalkervision
05-19-2008, 06:29 PM
Hay now I know! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_cool.gif Framed canopies don't jam ! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/winky.gif

julian265
05-19-2008, 10:22 PM
IIRC the P51 and 190D speed vs altitude curves cross at a few altitudes. If you're serious about flying a particular plane, it pays off to know what your optimum altitudes for speed are. Download IL2 compare and learn!

Your feeling about the turn of the Mustang mkIII is absolutely correct. Compare the other Mustang's turn curves to it in the above program.

However, if you find yourself going for a minimum radius turn in the P51, IMO you've made a bundle of mistakes already. It simply doesn't hold it's energy during turns, especially compared to 109s. Even if you think you can turn onto the six of a lone Dora, very often the enemy won't be alone for long. In the '51 especially, you'll be at the mercy of any other blues who turn up.

Like the dora (and IMO more so), the '51 loses a hell of a lot of speed with a few wing holes, which you're much more susceptible to in a turn fight.

M_Gunz
05-20-2008, 01:21 AM
Originally posted by DKoor:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by M_Gunz:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by DKoor:
[Poor Bf-109's! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/10.gif

Now I see that I haven't whined not one tiny bit ever about them...

They are inferior in-game in just about everything to a FW-190...

Try 1:1 of those at under 300kph, maybe under 380kph as well. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>Is it going to work like Bf-109 vs I-153 thing? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/34.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Like that, kinda yeah.

We have FW-190A-4 with thin prop and I dunno if any of our FW's are wide prop so lowspeed
accel and climb may not echo words about tested FW's with wide prop. The gap between 109
or other less high speed fighters and some of our FW's may be wider than expected because
of that. It depends on what people read and believe to get those expectations though.

I wonder how many WWII pilots died because they thought they knew the stack-up and did not?
I don't even count the big surprises when new models came out for one side or the other,
just the times when there were more variables than the pilot had considered.

WOLFMondo
05-20-2008, 02:08 AM
The only Mustang that scares me in a Dora is the Mustang MkIII at any altitude. A higher Mustang is also a worry (almost any late war plane is) but if its at the same level of just above I put my faith in the Dora.

DKoor
05-20-2008, 03:58 AM
Originally posted by julian265:
IIRC the P51 and 190D speed vs altitude curves cross at a few altitudes. If you're serious about flying a particular plane, it pays off to know what your optimum altitudes for speed are. Download IL2 compare and learn! I did...

http://i28.tinypic.com/9k10nq.gif

http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_cool.gif


However, if you find yourself going for a minimum radius turn in the P51, IMO you've made a bundle of mistakes already. It simply doesn't hold it's energy during turns, especially compared to 109s. Yes, I never considered turning with Bf-109 in such manner (careless horizontal turn at medium speed, even if it was deeply over my territory)...


Even if you think you can turn onto the six of a lone Dora, It's not important what I think, it's important what is possible to do there about the issue!
And now I'm fairly positive that P-51D can't outturn FW-190D in sustained horizontal turn... sure thing FW doesn't outturn P-51 easily, but I wont be in such position anymore, be sure http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-mad.gif especially so when I was the one who initiated it, thinking "he's damaged he'll be an easy target now...". Well, I went in for a surprise...


very often the enemy won't be alone for long. In the '51 especially, you'll be at the mercy of any other blues who turn up. That is true because P-51D can't rely on classic climb in danger to re-gain height, but only on high speed semi-zoom climbs to get out of danger... just about everything on WF outclimbs the P-51D.


Like the dora (and IMO more so), the '51 loses a hell of a lot of speed with a few wing holes, which you're much more susceptible to in a turn fight. Yes, but IMO a P-51 has very slight advantage here being able to trim out some of the damage... how does that compute on a speed (if we can gain a few kph more due to damage trim-out), I have no idea, because that's very hard to check out (for that to test, one should inflict a controlled damage and check, and TBH that, to date, no one did). http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/1072.gif

*edit - oh snap i posted Mustang Mk.III vs FW-190D9E chart above, now corrected tho http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif .

DKoor
05-20-2008, 04:17 AM
Originally posted by M_Gunz:
I wonder how many WWII pilots died because they thought they knew the stack-up and did not? +1 I'm quite sure that the number of such incidents in ww2 would be surprising...

I don't even count the big surprises when new models came out for one side or the other,
just the times when there were more variables than the pilot had considered. I specifically remembered one P-38 pilot (in MTO), Joel Owens of 27FS, saying how, in one of the times he encountered a Bf-109's, he shot one down in quite unordinary way...

He said something like how 109 tried sharp climb in order to get rid of him and so German just pulled his Messerschmitt straight up in a zoom climb; but the P-38 was able to follow that, and to a German horror he actually realized that P-38 is closing on him! And by some miracle 109 pilot survived that maneuver...
Bf-109 pilot couldn't believe it, when he saw the P-38 latching onto his tail again and as a desperate move he again went into a sharp climb!
But this time he ran out of luck as the American aimed well.

Owens was convinced that his opponent had experiences with Tomahawks, Kittyhawks and perhaps even Hurricanes...

DKoor
05-20-2008, 04:24 AM
I'm also interested to see whether FW-190A9 can match a P-51D in a horizontal sustained turn... some time ago we had exclusive FW-190A8 vs P-51D setup server and FW-190A8 really proved to be an inferior machine in equal fight.

TinyTim
05-20-2008, 04:40 AM
Originally posted by DKoor:
I'm also interested to see whether FW-190A9 can match a P-51D in a horizontal sustained turn... some time ago we had exclusive FW-190A8 vs P-51D setup server and FW-190A8 really proved to be an inferior machine in equal fight.

When having only antons at disposal versus mustangs and tempests, I always pick A6 (and here and there A9) over A8.

DKoor
05-20-2008, 05:09 AM
FW-190A5 seems to be a better aircraft regarding top speed performance over FW-190A6...
Also FW-190A5-1,65AtA seems to be faster up to 6,000m than both of the mentioned types... however from 1,500m to 3,000m both are faster than 1,65AtA!

<pre class="ip-ubbcode-code-pre">
FW-190A5 SL 576
FW-190A5* 6500 680
FW-190A5-165 SL 589
FW-190A5-165* 5700 662
FW-190A6 SL 576
FW-190A6 5700 658
FW-190A6 6500 672
</pre>

* - best alt speed
Data from V4.08, tested in game.

FW-190A8 is a dog compared to them, at least from IL2 Compare http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif . I haven't tested FW-190A8...

*edit wrong data for A6, I tested it on both 5700m and 6500m, different results, now corrected.

K_Freddie
05-20-2008, 06:09 AM
Another little titbit from history...

It's often perceived incorrectly that the P-51 was superior to the FW, but it was infact inferior tactics used by the Luftwaffe in combatting the bomber stream.

The incorrect tactic decreed by Goering was for all planes ME109 and FWs to only attack the bombers, leaving the P-51's to pick them off with ease.
The Luftwaffe pilots changed this tactic to ..ME109's went after the escorts and FW's went after the bombers. - A lot more P51's were suddenly being lost.

In the game they're all evenly matched, and it comes down to pilot skill... as usual. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

FatCat_99
05-20-2008, 07:12 AM
Originally posted by DKoor:
FW-190A5 seems to be a better aircraft regarding top speed performance over FW-190A6...
Also FW-190A5-1,65AtA seems to be faster up to 6,000m than both of the mentioned types... however from 1,500m to 3,000m both are faster than 1,65AtA!

<pre class="ip-ubbcode-code-pre">
FW-190A5 SL 576
FW-190A5* 6500 680
FW-190A5-165 SL 589
FW-190A5-165* 5700 662
FW-190A6 SL 576
FW-190A6* 6500 658
</pre>

* - best alt speed
Data from V4.08, tested in game.

FW-190A8 is a dog compared to them, at least from IL2 Compare http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif . I haven't tested FW-190A8...

Retest A6, it is using same FM as A5 so there shouldn't be difference in speed at alt, 22 kmh difference seems to be too much.

FC

DKoor
05-20-2008, 07:40 AM
Will do...

fordfan25
05-20-2008, 11:43 AM
P-51 above 25k ft has a deceant adv in spedd ect but not alot. at 25k the 51 is only IIRC last time i tested about 3 MPH faster. at 20k the dora is about 5 mph faster. low level the dora has a bit higher speed as long as the p51 does not use PP cheat. the p51 and dora can maintain E about the same. The dora in most cases is slightly better in a dog fight. gets more apariant at lower speeds and when the fight stays in the vert. it is a slightly more twitchy plane in a hard slow turn do to its rool rate but with a bit of exp and or stick settings this is not a problem. the dora has better excelleration at all but above 25 or so ft. Again this adv is most apparint at lower speeds.

It should be noted that in my exp the p51 has a slightly better cooling moddle and is easyer to keep from over heating wich is often times the resone it seems so much faster at alt. if you are being chaced by a dora and have alot of lead time he should not be able to catch you. he may start to catch you but will not maintain that speed as long. if flown right and as i say if the situation is right he will not be able to cathc you. Also in my exp the dora has a edge in climb rate. many times i have gotten the better of stang's even at 20+ ft by gaing alot of speen in level flight then going into a med angle climb. as speeds slow down you will see the stang start to get loose then just go into as hard a turn as you can safly maintain. if he trys to follow he will stall first.

Also when flyn a dora, if you have a stang on you and you are at alt you can go into a hard fast dive. at about 480mph pull up sharp if he is still be hind you. if he follows more times than not he will snap a wing. also seems the dora piolet can maintain more hard G with out black out. so chances are he will fall asleep.

Xiolablu3
05-20-2008, 12:27 PM
I agree with Fordfans findings.

We should definitely remember that we are comparing an Early 1944 plane with basically a 1945 plane.

As we usually fight much lower than the Historical Western front, I prefer the Dora in-game.

I know its a great matchup, but the Fw190 is probably my favourite all round plane in the game, the heavier guns make a big difference to me.

I still wsouldnt mind flying the P51 in the matchup however..but I find it a bit 'wobbly'.

Overall : Advantage Dora IMO, but its very close.

DKoor
05-20-2008, 01:23 PM
Eh... the more I look in the IL2 Compare chart above (P-51D vs FW-190D) the more I'm sure that I could just hit CTRL+E whenever I encounter a Dora... http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/sadeyes.gif

VMF-214_HaVoK
05-20-2008, 01:24 PM
-with 25% fuel (maybe too with 50%) P51D turns a little bit better

Not even close lol. The Dora out turns the Mustang with ease regardless of speed or altitude. It also out climbs and out dives the Mustang. It is faster then the Mustang at any altitude as well. The FW-190D is far superior to the P-51D in every way. Actually its not even close.

S!

DKoor
05-20-2008, 01:31 PM
Yes, strangely from around 2,000m to 4,000m P-51D has some speed advantage over Dora... that is useful.
I would go that far and add that slight advantage in speed over 7,500m is not really useable unless in specific conditions, as most fights happens at lower alts.

Meh...

GH_Klingstroem
05-20-2008, 01:46 PM
Originally posted by VMF-214_HaVoK:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">-with 25% fuel (maybe too with 50%) P51D turns a little bit better

Not even close lol. The Dora out turns the Mustang with ease regardless of speed or altitude. It also out climbs and out dives the Mustang. It is faster then the Mustang at any altitude as well. The FW-190D is far superior to the P-51D in every way. Actually its not even close.

S! </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Sigh... I outrun Doras daily on the most difficult server out there, Warclouds!! As turning goes, its 50-50 I would say, sometimes I win easely and sometimes its a difficult match. What I have noticed is that the 190, regardless of type, expericene more buffeting when getting close to the stall. This might make the less experienced 190 pilot turn less tight...
But as I said, I outrun Doras daily!! Its all a question of trim!! Its like this, if you start at low speed and accelerate the p51 wont go faster than either the 109 or 190, However if both of you start at ANY speed above max cruise speed (i.e after a dive) the p51 will keep its speed longer than ANYTHING and also outrun it!! I promise!

Xiolablu3
05-20-2008, 03:03 PM
Originally posted by VMF-214_HaVoK:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">-with 25% fuel (maybe too with 50%) P51D turns a little bit better

Not even close lol. The Dora out turns the Mustang with ease regardless of speed or altitude. It also out climbs and out dives the Mustang. It is faster then the Mustang at any altitude as well. The FW-190D is far superior to the P-51D in every way. Actually its not even close.

S! </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I didnt realise it was this clear cut.

The Dora IS almost a year newer than the P51D, so I guess we should not be TOO surprised.

Because the Dora is so common online, and it was actually rare in WW2 (most being destroyed on the ground before they even got into the air, or destroyed on their first sortie) we should have a higher boosted rare version of the P51D too.

Its a fact that Axis side has all its late war, high boosted prop planes, plus jets, yet the Western Allies are missing their late birds such as the High Boost US Mustang, Spitfire XIV, Gloster Meteor, Corsair -4 etc.

The Dora is massively over-represented online compared its real life numbers. The P-51D's natural enemy should be the late Antons, along with three-quarters Bf109G6's and quarter BF109G10/G14.

far more likely to be Dora vs 5 P51's

Now, I LOVE the Dora, and any FW190's, but comparing the P51D to the Dora is not really fair. SPitfire XIV vs Dora is a far more balanced/fair Scenario, each saw a fair amount of combat, but compared to the 'main' types' they were relatively rare.

1200-1500 Doras produced, most destroyed very quickly, many on the ground/in transit. Very few sorties flown by each aircraft.

700 Spitfire XIV's produced before wars end, few losses, lots of sorties flown by each aircraft produced.

TinyTim
05-20-2008, 03:16 PM
Well said Xiola. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/agreepost.gif

Pity Oleg never gave us the ability to limit the numbers of different types of aircraft for online dogfight maps, like 2 Doras, 6 A-8s, 6 G-10s and 6 G-6s. Now if both D-9 slots get occupied, you would have to fly something else... This way it would also be easy to implement the advanced rare types like Me-262 on 44/45 maps.

SC has the ability to limit the cumulative number of AC, but this many times does not achieve its purpose, since everyone first goes for the best AC, and when they run out of them, they are all forced to fly the underdogs; in the end it's like having two different maps.

VMF-214_HaVoK
05-20-2008, 03:46 PM
Originally posted by GH_Klingstroem:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by VMF-214_HaVoK:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">-with 25% fuel (maybe too with 50%) P51D turns a little bit better

Not even close lol. The Dora out turns the Mustang with ease regardless of speed or altitude. It also out climbs and out dives the Mustang. It is faster then the Mustang at any altitude as well. The FW-190D is far superior to the P-51D in every way. Actually its not even close.

S! </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Sigh... I outrun Doras daily on the most difficult server out there, Warclouds!! As turning goes, its 50-50 I would say, sometimes I win easely and sometimes its a difficult match. What I have noticed is that the 190, regardless of type, expericene more buffeting when getting close to the stall. This might make the less experienced 190 pilot turn less tight...
But as I said, I outrun Doras daily!! Its all a question of trim!! Its like this, if you start at low speed and accelerate the p51 wont go faster than either the 109 or 190, However if both of you start at ANY speed above max cruise speed (i.e after a dive) the p51 will keep its speed longer than ANYTHING and also outrun it!! I promise! </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

You come and out turn me in a Mustang while Im in a Dora. And the most difficult server comment is very funny. PM me on HL.

S!

VMF-214_HaVoK
05-20-2008, 03:47 PM
I didnt realise it was this clear cut.

Yep, its that simple. And you do realize Im talking "in game" performance here. It easily proven where as talking real world we could argue forever.

S!

DKoor
05-20-2008, 03:52 PM
Originally posted by Xiolablu3:
The Dora IS almost a year newer than the P51D, so I guess we should not be TOO surprised. IIRC the first P-51D's arrived in ETO sometime around May 1944 http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/blink.gif .
There is a FW-190D9 1944 model in game... well. I'm confused. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/blush.gif
I'm not nitpicking just... http://www.acompletewasteofspace.com/modules/Forums/images/smiles/gm_shrug.gif


Because the Dora is so common online, and it was actually rare in WW2 (most being destroyed on the ground before they even got into the air, or destroyed on their first sortie) we should have a higher boosted rare version of the P51D too. +1
It would mostly take a few alterations and more or less copy/paste model...


Its a fact that Axis side has all its late war, high boosted prop planes, plus jets, yet the Western Allies are missing their late birds such as the High Boost US Mustang, Spitfire XIV, Gloster Meteor, Corsair -4 etc. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/agreepost.gif


The Dora is massively over-represented online compared its real life numbers. The P-51D's natural enemy should be the late Antons, along with three-quarters Bf109G6's and quarter BF109G10/G14. That is quite true... and online all you see is 70% (at least!) axis ETO 1944 planeset consisting of 190D.


far more likely to be Dora vs 5 P51's Yeah judging by the numbers available at time, etc...


Now, I LOVE the Dora, and any FW190's, but comparing the P51D to the Dora is not really fair. SPitfire XIV vs Dora is a far more balanced/fair Scenario, each saw a fair amount of combat, but compared to the 'main' types' they were relatively rare. +1
But due to online shortcomings (read = whine) try to limit the FW-190D... even to a 1945 model http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/34.gif eh eh, would be like... general riot http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/59.gif .


1200-1500 Doras produced, most destroyed very quickly, many on the ground/in transit. Very few sorties flown by each aircraft. 7,956 P-51D's and 1,500 P-51K's (Dallas built P-51D) were built by North American... source; http://www.faqs.org/docs/air/avp512.html
So I judge your number to be about right (5:1).


700 Spitfire XIV's produced before wars end, few losses, lots of sorties flown by each aircraft produced. As it is will never see the combat in IL2. A pitty really...
Along with another few models; FW-190A4 (boost), Tempest Mk.V (boost), Mustang Mk.IV... etc.

VMF-214_HaVoK
05-20-2008, 03:54 PM
Pity Oleg never gave us the ability to limit the numbers of different types of aircraft for online dogfight maps, like 2 Doras, 6 A-8s, 6 G-10s and 6 G-6s. Now if both D-9 slots get occupied, you would have to fly something else... This way it would also be easy to implement the advanced rare types like Me-262 on 44/45 maps.

You can limit the numbers of a particular aircraft online. Actually many servers do this. If using FBD you just limit the amount of spawn points at a particular base. IL2 Server Commander gives you the power to limit any aircraft you wish and even ordinance.

S!

DKoor
05-20-2008, 03:58 PM
Originally posted by VMF-214_HaVoK:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">I didnt realise it was this clear cut.

Yep, its that simple. And you do realize Im talking "in game" performance here. It easily proven where as talking real world we could argue forever.

S! </div></BLOCKQUOTE>Just to be clear, I also think now that it's quite a clear situation, since I easily see FW-190D excelling over P-51D on a regular online mission... (fighter sweeps and low/mid alt escorts-interceptions).

Several months ago I flew the FW-190D on Warclouds for quite some time... and TBH I never got shot down by a P-51D, once I got bounced by one but he zoomed up and didn't finished me so I crash landed over friendly territory... that would be about it.
http://www.acompletewasteofspace.com/modules/Forums/images/smiles/gm_shrug.gif

M_Gunz
05-20-2008, 04:35 PM
There should be a big caveat when discussing plane X vs plane Y, that being the planes do not
fly themselves!

Planes as close as these two, pilots do not have to be far apart in skill to overshadow the
differences. Even one very good at piloting can lose just by not fitting tactics to the
planes matched and situation, ie they may work well vs another plane and/or situation but
lose vs the current enemy.

IMO that makes these a good match and to heck with historic numbers on DF where so much else
is utterly not historic.

But for numbers... is it better to count nation's planes or experienced pilots at the time?

DKoor
05-20-2008, 05:06 PM
Originally posted by M_Gunz:
fitting tactics +1

That wins online, I guess that is what wins IRL too...

However, I was in for quite surprise about some performance things around P-51D and his enemies.

JSG72
05-20-2008, 05:07 PM
Plane V. Plane PAH!

This is something I have always pondered over the past 7 years of IL2. And one of the reasons I don't fly Online.

That is you will come accross folks trying to outfly each other in scenarios that could never have happened in RL.

Mustangs. Did shoot down 190Ds and Visa-versa.. However the oppertunities were merely that and not because of the minutae of plane performance. It may help in a certain situation. (And these are the ones most argued/discussed about). However War/Missions/your numbers/performance/firepower/experience. And that of the enemy are only Pure guestimates when it comes to R.L. Combat. Ju-87s/Me110s shouldn't be able to shoot down Spitfires. But of course they did.
Rear gunners as snipers? Jeez oh! They claimed more than some airforces combined.

One on one Mustang v 190D any experience Wartime RL. MMmmm... It is a brave man that told that tale. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

ICDP
05-20-2008, 05:20 PM
Originally posted by DKoor:
Eh... the more I look in the IL2 Compare chart above (P-51D vs FW-190D) the more I'm sure that I could just hit CTRL+E whenever I encounter a Dora... http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/sadeyes.gif

http://i28.tinypic.com/9k10nq.gif

The above charts are not black and white. It is better to look at the 100% power curves than the 110% because the 110% power cannot be maintained for very long periods. Even then the charts do not take into account that in the Dora it is impossible to run with rads closed due to the overheat. Also the graphs represent how the aircraft perform at 100% fuel. Since the P51D carries a lot more fuel that a 190D9 it looks worse only in IL2 compare. In IL2 under normal circumstances of around 50% fuel the P51D and 109D9 are very evenly matched in turn and climb.

In my experience the P51D will usually outrun the 190D9 as it has a better overheat model. The P51D will happily run at 100% with closed rads for much longer than the 109D9 so as can be seen from the chart the P51D will outrun the 190D9 over most of the altitude range. I frequently caught Doras in a prolonged chase while flying a P51D because they simply had to back off sooner than me. Likewise when I got chased in a 190D9 by a P51D I knew I would eventually be caught because I could not keep the engine cool as long.

Also anyone who claims outright superiority for the 109D9 over a P51D is wrong... period! The two aircraft in IL2 are very evenly matched and only pilot skill seperates the outcome.

JSG72
05-20-2008, 05:37 PM
Also anyone who claims outright superiority for the 109D9 over a P51D is wrong... period! The two aircraft in IL2 are very evenly matched and only pilot skill seperates the outcome.

Sure as Hell. Can't beat them charts.

Now...Let's do WW2 Flight Sims in the players ability to simulate R.L. situations?

VMF-214_HaVoK
05-20-2008, 08:40 PM
Also anyone who claims outright superiority for the 109D9 over a P51D is wrong... period!

It is and your wrong.

S!

VW-IceFire
05-20-2008, 10:33 PM
Originally posted by ICDP:
Also anyone who claims outright superiority for the 109D9 over a P51D is wrong... period! The two aircraft in IL2 are very evenly matched and only pilot skill seperates the outcome.
This would be my experience as well. Good pilots of both types seem to end up in stalemate positions more often then not when engaging in a even fight (which is unusual as usually there is advantage somewhere). At that point its more a battle of attrition.

The only place where I have to give the Dora outright advantage is in the guns. The twin MG151/20s, positioned as they are, make the perfect weapon against enemy fighters. Not strictly in firepower but in placement and ease of aim. Of course the gunsight knocks that down a bit. So its kind of a catch 22 http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

TinyTim
05-21-2008, 01:53 AM
Originally posted by VMF-214_HaVoK:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Pity Oleg never gave us the ability to limit the numbers of different types of aircraft for online dogfight maps, like 2 Doras, 6 A-8s, 6 G-10s and 6 G-6s. Now if both D-9 slots get occupied, you would have to fly something else... This way it would also be easy to implement the advanced rare types like Me-262 on 44/45 maps.

You can limit the numbers of a particular aircraft online. Actually many servers do this. If using FBD you just limit the amount of spawn points at a particular base. IL2 Server Commander gives you the power to limit any aircraft you wish and even ordinance.

S! </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Really? I knew about SC ability to limit overall number of a particular plane type (and loadouts) - and when this number is exhausted, type is no longer available. But I never heard about FBD ability to limit spawn points. So, is it possible to limit spawnpoints on particular airbase really low, to like 1 or 2? 2 Me262s in the air at max at any time on a late 44 server with 20 vs 20 players would be nice IMO.

DIRTY-MAC
05-21-2008, 02:22 AM
They already use this on many severs, look at UK1 and UK2 on some maps they have restrictions that only two pilots can fly Me262 at the same time

TinyTim
05-21-2008, 02:28 AM
Originally posted by DIRTY-MAC:
They already use this on many severs, look at UK1 and UK2 on some maps they have restrictions that only two pilots can fly Me262 at the same time

Uh, I really need to get back online soon. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/35.gif

Kurfurst__
05-21-2008, 04:48 AM
Originally posted by Xiolablu3:

The Dora IS almost a year newer than the P51D, so I guess we should not be TOO surprised.

Hmm, the P-51D was introduced to operations in June 1944 (or May IIRC), the Dora-9 in September 1944. That`s what, 3-4 months difference in timeframe...?


Originally posted by Xiolablu3:
Because the Dora is so common online, and it was actually rare in WW2 (most being destroyed on the ground before they even got into the air, or destroyed on their first sortie) we should have a higher boosted rare version of the P51D too.

Its a fact that Axis side has all its late war, high boosted prop planes, plus jets, yet the Western Allies are missing their late birds such as the High Boost US Mustang, Spitfire XIV, Gloster Meteor, Corsair -4 etc.

The Dora is massively over-represented online compared its real life numbers. The P-51D's natural enemy should be the late Antons, along with three-quarters Bf109G6's and quarter BF109G10/G14.

far more likely to be Dora vs 5 P51's

Now, I LOVE the Dora, and any FW190's, but comparing the P51D to the Dora is not really fair. SPitfire XIV vs Dora is a far more balanced/fair Scenario, each saw a fair amount of combat, but compared to the 'main' types' they were relatively rare.

1200-1500 Doras produced, most destroyed very quickly, many on the ground/in transit. Very few sorties flown by each aircraft.

700 Spitfire XIV's produced before wars end, few losses, lots of sorties flown by each aircraft produced.

Doh... this was discussed many many times, it was established a couple of times that your perception of how it was is quite simply wrong, but your opionion did not change at all.. I guess there`s not much point to argue with emotionnally-fueled opinion.

Blutarski2004
05-21-2008, 05:48 AM
Originally posted by DKoor:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by M_Gunz:
I wonder how many WWII pilots died because they thought they knew the stack-up and did not? +1 I'm quite sure that the number of such incidents in ww2 would be surprising...

I don't even count the big surprises when new models came out for one side or the other,
just the times when there were more variables than the pilot had considered. I specifically remembered one P-38 pilot (in MTO), Joel Owens of 27FS, saying how, in one of the times he encountered a Bf-109's, he shot one down in quite unordinary way...

He said something like how 109 tried sharp climb in order to get rid of him and so German just pulled his Messerschmitt straight up in a zoom climb; but the P-38 was able to follow that, and to a German horror he actually realized that P-38 is closing on him! And by some miracle 109 pilot survived that maneuver...
Bf-109 pilot couldn't believe it, when he saw the P-38 latching onto his tail again and as a desperate move he again went into a sharp climb!
But this time he ran out of luck as the American aimed well.

Owens was convinced that his opponent had experiences with Tomahawks, Kittyhawks and perhaps even Hurricanes... </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


..... Steinhoff mentioned that P38 ability to zoom was a big surprise in Tunisia. Part of that, IMO, was exceptionally good elevator authority of P38.

Brain32
05-21-2008, 07:32 AM
Originally posted by GH_Klingstroem:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by VMF-214_HaVoK:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">-with 25% fuel (maybe too with 50%) P51D turns a little bit better

Not even close lol. The Dora out turns the Mustang with ease regardless of speed or altitude. It also out climbs and out dives the Mustang. It is faster then the Mustang at any altitude as well. The FW-190D is far superior to the P-51D in every way. Actually its not even close.

S! </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Sigh... I outrun Doras daily on the most difficult server out there, Warclouds!! As turning goes, its 50-50 I would say, sometimes I win easely and sometimes its a difficult match. What I have noticed is that the 190, regardless of type, expericene more buffeting when getting close to the stall. This might make the less experienced 190 pilot turn less tight...
But as I said, I outrun Doras daily!! Its all a question of trim!! Its like this, if you start at low speed and accelerate the p51 wont go faster than either the 109 or 190, However if both of you start at ANY speed above max cruise speed (i.e after a dive) the p51 will keep its speed longer than ANYTHING and also outrun it!! I promise! </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


Thx Kling, but now the "famous" ubi aces will accuse you of being Brain32 http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

If I had a coin for every Dora ace wannabe that though he can outturn me and ended up a smoking hole in the ground, well...I wouldn't have to wait to come home from my job to write this lol.

Anyway if you are in a Dora and end up with me or Kling or about 60% of WarClouds P51 pilots on your six, THE ONLY WAY OUT is trying to lure us into slow scissors fight this is the only place where FW has an edge since P51 rolls badly at low speed and even if a capable pilot is in control of the P51 he will still have to face bad nose oscilations as he uses his rudder to enhance the roll rate.
More about the turn from several positions:

FW190 on P51:
1) If P51 has some alt below to use it can even outmatch a 109, the trick is to convert the altitude into speed and use superior AoA capatibility to create a separation in turn, after that there can only be two outcomes:

a) opposing plane panics and pulls too hard trying to compensate the separation you created, he ofcourse looses a wagonload of speed and can no longer hold your sustained turn - you win.

b) he sees what you are doing and pulls up, you did keep some speed did you? Well the fight starts over and this time it can often be on equal terms...if you really know how to keep your E you can do this many times until you completely drain your opponent and eventully hammer him down with super weak 50's that can only cut 109's in half with single bursts but yes, I know - those darn Tiger tanks.... arrrgh. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

2)P51 pilot was a F idiot, he left himself no alt below it and did a pi$$ poor job on SA so it's caught "pants down" on the deck by the FW190D9. Well my dear UBI aces, WHAT TO F do you want? Does EVERY allied plane has to be a F Spitfire? http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

P51D on a FW190(D or A, they all look the same in my K-14):
- please, please turn infront of my P51D, it's a nice little D20 with Dutch markings(Red triangles) and white number 32 on it, do not by any circumstance try to lure me into slow scissors fight, just make a big fat nice sustained left hand turn because hey, the ubi aces TM recommend that tactics, it has to be t3h best http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

dieg777
05-21-2008, 09:09 AM
wrt the dora not being used much - try reading pierre clostermanns book or willi heilmanns
" alert in the west" as but a few examples of them in active service from around oct 44

BTW given the choice between the dora and the P-51 , in the game, Id pick the P-51- I think it gives you more options.

DKoor
05-21-2008, 10:56 AM
Originally posted by Brain32:
FW190 on P51:
1) If P51 has some alt below to use it can even outmatch a 109, the trick is to convert the altitude into speed and use superior AoA capatibility to create a separation in turn, after that there can only be two outcomes:

a) opposing plane panics and pulls too hard trying to compensate the separation you created, he ofcourse looses a wagonload of speed and can no longer hold your sustained turn - you win. Eh eh... I usually get most of it right, right up until that part above http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif . At that part FW either spins (out of speed) or just rolls over and dives...

The bad part is I cannot see it anymore, obsolete PC owns me more than any E/A or my own plane limitations.

I guess I should introduce myself as a proud member of a CSS elite squad (=can't see sheite=) http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/35.gif .

It's quite of a paradox... I spot them from 5km away dive on them, but when they undertake some crappy evasive maneuver (of any kind really) below me at close range, I lost them http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/sadeyes.gif.

M_Gunz
05-21-2008, 11:49 AM
Max entirely sympathizes with DKoor on visual problems!

Kwiatos
05-21-2008, 12:15 PM
Originally posted by Brain32:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by GH_Klingstroem:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by VMF-214_HaVoK:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">-with 25% fuel (maybe too with 50%) P51D turns a little bit better

Not even close lol. The Dora out turns the Mustang with ease regardless of speed or altitude. It also out climbs and out dives the Mustang. It is faster then the Mustang at any altitude as well. The FW-190D is far superior to the P-51D in every way. Actually its not even close.

S! </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Sigh... I outrun Doras daily on the most difficult server out there, Warclouds!! As turning goes, its 50-50 I would say, sometimes I win easely and sometimes its a difficult match. What I have noticed is that the 190, regardless of type, expericene more buffeting when getting close to the stall. This might make the less experienced 190 pilot turn less tight...
But as I said, I outrun Doras daily!! Its all a question of trim!! Its like this, if you start at low speed and accelerate the p51 wont go faster than either the 109 or 190, However if both of you start at ANY speed above max cruise speed (i.e after a dive) the p51 will keep its speed longer than ANYTHING and also outrun it!! I promise! </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


Thx Kling, but now the "famous" ubi aces will accuse you of being Brain32 http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

If I had a coin for every Dora ace wannabe that though he can outturn me and ended up a smoking hole in the ground, well...I wouldn't have to wait to come home from my job to write this lol.

Anyway if you are in a Dora and end up with me or Kling or about 60% of WarClouds P51 pilots on your six, THE ONLY WAY OUT is trying to lure us into slow scissors fight this is the only place where FW has an edge since P51 rolls badly at low speed and even if a capable pilot is in control of the P51 he will still have to face bad nose oscilations as he uses his rudder to enhance the roll rate.
More about the turn from several positions:

FW190 on P51:
1) If P51 has some alt below to use it can even outmatch a 109, the trick is to convert the altitude into speed and use superior AoA capatibility to create a separation in turn, after that there can only be two outcomes:

a) opposing plane panics and pulls too hard trying to compensate the separation you created, he ofcourse looses a wagonload of speed and can no longer hold your sustained turn - you win.

b) he sees what you are doing and pulls up, you did keep some speed did you? Well the fight starts over and this time it can often be on equal terms...if you really know how to keep your E you can do this many times until you completely drain your opponent and eventully hammer him down with super weak 50's that can only cut 109's in half with single bursts but yes, I know - those darn Tiger tanks.... arrrgh. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

2)P51 pilot was a F idiot, he left himself no alt below it and did a pi$$ poor job on SA so it's caught "pants down" on the deck by the FW190D9. Well my dear UBI aces, WHAT TO F do you want? Does EVERY allied plane has to be a F Spitfire? http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

P51D on a FW190(D or A, they all look the same in my K-14):
- please, please turn infront of my P51D, it's a nice little D20 with Dutch markings(Red triangles) and white number 32 on it, do not by any circumstance try to lure me into slow scissors fight, just make a big fat nice sustained left hand turn because hey, the ubi aces TM recommend that tactics, it has to be t3h best http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Brain you surly know that D-9 pilot have 100% more chance to survive when have P-51 on the tail then P-51 pilot which have D-9 on the tail. These rule knows every 190 pilots on the WC.

There is not fair situation in game when we have the best boosted Fw190 D-9 comparing to standart boost P-51D. As i see on WW2 phots many P-51 ecpecialy from version D-20 have 150 grade fuel allowed and higher boost then standard like with Mustang MK III.

But like in most cases the real life - the pilot is the key...

Xiolablu3
05-21-2008, 12:44 PM
Originally posted by Brain32:
Well my dear UBI aces, WHAT TO F do you want? Does EVERY allied plane has to be a F Spitfire? http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif



You could have some very good info if you didnt act like such a t*t. Why not use it to help the newer/less skillful guys rather than sl*g them off?


If all these other guys posting help/their experiences are 'UBI Aces' (in condascending tone), then what are you? Some kind of IL2 God? I would take any of these so-called 'Ubi Aces' with a good attitude and lesser pilot skils over some guys who has an over-inflated ego and a bad attitude.

I remember when you flew SPitfires a LOT, and sucked in any Anton, yet I see post after post ****ging off other pilots for their tactics and choice of plane...'noob' this, 'target drone' that.

I recall a time seeing you online get shot down over and over in a FW190A and asking for red to 'lend you a SPitfire', soon after you switched to red and flew the plane that you so often **** off others for using (noobs etc etc). I dont recall anyone calling you 'noob' or 'Spitnoob' in that situation (although now I am wishing I had, might have taught you a lesson)

Its all about opinions, yours isnt any more right than the next guys. Most pilots here are mature enough to choose their favourite ride and stick with it, not bash others for their choice.

Why not drop the condascending tone for once and drop back down to earth once in a while? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/10.gif

Brain32
05-21-2008, 01:25 PM
You could have some very good info if you didnt act like such a t*t. Why not use it to help the newer/less skillful guys rather than sl*g them off?
Info is there for those that are willing to read it my tone may seem hard but last time I checked we were grown man playing military combat simulation...


If all these other guys posting help/their experiences are 'UBI Aces' (in condascending tone), then what are you?
No, not all, but the term "UBI Aces" chained to condascending tone is related to one fact, whenever some of you guys get relaxed in some other topic the most common statements are in the line of:
-"Oh I didn't play the game since 2003..."
-"Well about 3 years ago I went strictly offline..."
etc., etc.
So I guess that makes me - the one who actually plays the game http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif
I respect many opinions in this thread although I don't agree with them, for example I can't think of one il2 related thing I can agree with Kwiatek, yet I respect his opinion, why?
Because I know he actually plays the game http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif


I recall a time seeing you online get shot down over and over in a FW190A and asking for red to 'lend you a SPitfire', soon after you switched to red and flew the plane that you so often **** off others for using (noobs etc etc). I dont recall anyone calling you 'noob' or 'Spitnoob' in that situation (although now I am wishing I had, might have taught you a lesson)

Those who really flew with me over the years will know why I find this comment pretty funny instead of offensive http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

GH_Klingstroem
05-22-2008, 08:24 AM
Originally posted by Brain32:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by GH_Klingstroem:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by VMF-214_HaVoK:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">-with 25% fuel (maybe too with 50%) P51D turns a little bit better

Not even close lol. The Dora out turns the Mustang with ease regardless of speed or altitude. It also out climbs and out dives the Mustang. It is faster then the Mustang at any altitude as well. The FW-190D is far superior to the P-51D in every way. Actually its not even close.

S! </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Sigh... I outrun Doras daily on the most difficult server out there, Warclouds!! As turning goes, its 50-50 I would say, sometimes I win easely and sometimes its a difficult match. What I have noticed is that the 190, regardless of type, expericene more buffeting when getting close to the stall. This might make the less experienced 190 pilot turn less tight...
But as I said, I outrun Doras daily!! Its all a question of trim!! Its like this, if you start at low speed and accelerate the p51 wont go faster than either the 109 or 190, However if both of you start at ANY speed above max cruise speed (i.e after a dive) the p51 will keep its speed longer than ANYTHING and also outrun it!! I promise! </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


Thx Kling, but now the "famous" ubi aces will accuse you of being Brain32 http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

If I had a coin for every Dora ace wannabe that though he can outturn me and ended up a smoking hole in the ground, well...I wouldn't have to wait to come home from my job to write this lol.

Anyway if you are in a Dora and end up with me or Kling or about 60% of WarClouds P51 pilots on your six, THE ONLY WAY OUT is trying to lure us into slow scissors fight this is the only place where FW has an edge since P51 rolls badly at low speed and even if a capable pilot is in control of the P51 he will still have to face bad nose oscilations as he uses his rudder to enhance the roll rate.
More about the turn from several positions:

FW190 on P51:
1) If P51 has some alt below to use it can even outmatch a 109, the trick is to convert the altitude into speed and use superior AoA capatibility to create a separation in turn, after that there can only be two outcomes:

a) opposing plane panics and pulls too hard trying to compensate the separation you created, he ofcourse looses a wagonload of speed and can no longer hold your sustained turn - you win.

b) he sees what you are doing and pulls up, you did keep some speed did you? Well the fight starts over and this time it can often be on equal terms...if you really know how to keep your E you can do this many times until you completely drain your opponent and eventully hammer him down with super weak 50's that can only cut 109's in half with single bursts but yes, I know - those darn Tiger tanks.... arrrgh. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

2)P51 pilot was a F idiot, he left himself no alt below it and did a pi$$ poor job on SA so it's caught "pants down" on the deck by the FW190D9. Well my dear UBI aces, WHAT TO F do you want? Does EVERY allied plane has to be a F Spitfire? http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

P51D on a FW190(D or A, they all look the same in my K-14):
- please, please turn infront of my P51D, it's a nice little D20 with Dutch markings(Red triangles) and white number 32 on it, do not by any circumstance try to lure me into slow scissors fight, just make a big fat nice sustained left hand turn because hey, the ubi aces TM recommend that tactics, it has to be t3h best http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I agree with you 100%! The Fw190D rolls better at slow speed and I have gone down many times for misjudging his E-state thinking he would stall but he was actually able to roll 180 while I stall trying to follow...
Slow scissors are something I try to stay away from at all times!
But also as someone said here, a fw190 with a P51 on its six stands a much better chance of surviving and making it back to base than vice versa due to the cannons creating alot of damage but the 50s being fairly weak from dead 6..

FatCat_99
05-22-2008, 08:54 AM
Dora is better E fighter, especially at lower alts, going into turn fight where difference is marginal is not very smart IMO.

My experience is that when I'm in Dora that only two kind of P-51 are dangerous.

1. One I don't see, but in that situation any opponent is dangerous

2. P-51 with rear gunner because that's where they always end, right in front of my guns. As I never encountered P-51 with rear gunner, sitting in their six doesn't scare me much.

FC

DKoor
05-22-2008, 10:27 AM
http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/35.gif

...

Eh... and also funny thing to notice is that P-51D is faster than 190D at 2,000m - 4,000m (some 25km/h max, but still)... above 7,500m is good to know that P-51D has some marginal advantage, but I would<span class="ev_code_red">n't</span> place my money on that...

*edit
I effin sux @ teh english language, fix colored in red http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/35.gif completely new meaning lol

VMF-214_HaVoK
05-22-2008, 11:17 AM
That question was which plane does what better, which plane has the best performance. The answer is clearly the FW-190D. It simply does everything better then the Mustang. What does this really mean? Nothing to me as I have said hundreds of times in this very forum: A more experienced pilot with the tactical advantages defeats the superior plane. So many of the blue/red whiners get defensive over these issues its quite ridiculous. Personally I do well no matter the aircraft Im flying and you will never see or hear me whine in a server about aircraft matchups. I been around long enough to know it should not matter if your good. BTW if your constantly resorting to turn fighting you obviously did something wrong. Carry on.

S!

Daiichidoku
05-22-2008, 11:58 AM
should all be grateful 51s and FWs are not even remotely as FUBAR'd as 38s

heck, just having comressibility modelled for every other type in game (at their respective critical mach speeds of course) would be worth it to hear the hue and cry go up

"this is a spitfire not a 109, wtf? i always read that 109s lawn-darted, not spitfires!"
"boo-hoo! i CANT break the wings on my 51 anymore"
"a hacker put B1 rocket FM on my J2M5!"
"Oleg my Yak's elevator controls reverse in a dive, please fix this bug"

VMF-214_HaVoK
05-22-2008, 01:05 PM
Originally posted by FatCat_99:
Dora is better E fighter, especially at lower alts, going into turn fight where difference is marginal is not very smart IMO.

My experience is that when I'm in Dora that only two kind of P-51 are dangerous.

1. One I don't see, but in that situation any opponent is dangerous

2. P-51 with rear gunner because that's where they always end, right in front of my guns. As I never encountered P-51 with rear gunner, sitting in their six doesn't scare me much.

FC

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/88.gif Thats classic!

S!

joeap
05-22-2008, 01:14 PM
Originally posted by Daiichidoku:
should all be grateful 51s and FWs are not even remotely as FUBAR'd as 38s

heck, just having comressibility modelled for every other type in game (at their respective critical mach speeds of course) would be worth it to hear the hue and cry go up

"this is a spitfire not a 109, wtf? i always read that 109s lawn-darted, not spitfires!"
"boo-hoo! i CANT break the wings on my 51 anymore"
"a hacker put B1 rocket FM on my J2M5!"
"Oleg my Yak's elevator controls reverse in a dive, please fix this bug"

Dear god let that be in SOW I would loooove the whines. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/clap.gif

Bet a lot of WWII pilot ghosts would agree too. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-indifferent.gif

DKoor
05-22-2008, 01:30 PM
Originally posted by Daiichidoku:
should all be grateful 51s and FWs are not even remotely as FUBAR'd as 38s +1


heck, just having comressibility modelled for every other type in game (at their respective critical mach speeds of course) would be worth it to hear the hue and cry go up +1


"this is a spitfire not a 109, wtf? i always read that 109s lawn-darted, not spitfires!"
"boo-hoo! i CANT break the wings on my 51 anymore" eh eh http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/59.gif


"a hacker put B1 rocket FM on my J2M5!" That J2M5 thing is insane... obsoletes even P-47D @ highest possible alt http://www.acompletewasteofspace.com/modules/Forums/images/smiles/icon_eek.gif


"Oleg my Yak's elevator controls reverse in a dive, please fix this bug" http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-tongue.gif

DKoor
05-22-2008, 01:31 PM
It could be even worse, be sure http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/59.gif .

DKoor
05-22-2008, 05:42 PM
Originally posted by FatCat_99:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by DKoor:
FW-190A5 seems to be a better aircraft regarding top speed performance over FW-190A6...
Also FW-190A5-1,65AtA seems to be faster up to 6,000m than both of the mentioned types... however from 1,500m to 3,000m both are faster than 1,65AtA!

<pre class="ip-ubbcode-code-pre">
FW-190A5 SL 576
FW-190A5* 6500 680
FW-190A5-165 SL 589
FW-190A5-165* 5700 662
FW-190A6 SL 576
FW-190A6* 6500 658
</pre>

* - best alt speed
Data from V4.08, tested in game.

FW-190A8 is a dog compared to them, at least from IL2 Compare http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif . I haven't tested FW-190A8...

Retest A6, it is using same FM as A5 so there shouldn't be difference in speed at alt, 22 kmh difference seems to be too much.

FC </div></BLOCKQUOTE>Eh yes http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif .. data 658km/h comes from 5700m alt not, 6500... it appears that A6 achieves 672km/h at 6500m (coming from a quick test).

Brain32
05-23-2008, 10:46 AM
Originally posted by VMF-214_HaVoK:
That question was which plane does what better, which plane has the best performance. The answer is clearly the FW-190D. It simply does everything better then the Mustang.

OK that's great, me and Kling for example just love 190D9 pilots that think like that http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif


But also as someone said here, a fw190 with a P51 on its six stands a much better chance of surviving and making it back to base than vice versa due to the cannons creating alot of damage but the 50s being fairly weak from dead 6..

This is ofcourse true although I would refraze that into a fw190 hit by P51 stands much better chance of surviving than P51 hit by Fw190.

VMF-214_HaVoK
05-23-2008, 10:48 AM
OK that's great, me and Kling for example just love 190D9 pilots that think like that Happy

You should have kept reading. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

Metatron_123
05-23-2008, 11:35 AM
I'm looking at Il-2 compare now, shall I share the secrets of Fw-190 D vs P-51 D performance, or will you just download it yourselves? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-mad.gif

DKoor
05-23-2008, 01:52 PM
Originally posted by Metatron_123:
I'm looking at Il-2 compare now, shall I share the secrets of Fw-190 D vs P-51 D performance, or will you just download it yourselves? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-mad.gif
You mean this one...?
http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif
http://i28.tinypic.com/9k10nq.gif

http://forums.ubi.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/23110283/m/160...121048066#4121048066 (http://forums.ubi.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/23110283/m/1601083156?r=4121048066#4121048066)

http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

M_Gunz
05-23-2008, 02:10 PM
Originally posted by VMF-214_HaVoK:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">OK that's great, me and Kling for example just love 190D9 pilots that think like that Happy

You should have kept reading. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

LOL! It doesn't matter what you think, or post, as long as you play online! LMFAO!

PFS_BlackBird
05-23-2008, 03:35 PM
I was going to post something here, but the previous poster made me change my mind: it would be a waste of time. Glad i play online!

DKoor, i have met you in the air a couple times. It would be a pleasure if you would get on comms so we can hook up together. I can't give you the holy grail in fighting D-9's but i can try to show how i deal with them.


BB

M_Gunz
05-23-2008, 03:54 PM
Sorry to ruffle your feathers Blackbird but when one poster says another is right after BOTH
say the opposite things, but the first has already stated that the only thing that matters
is playing online then it does tell ME that it really doesn't matter to him what is stated.

steiner562
05-23-2008, 04:18 PM
Can we all stay on topic please, BlackBird if you have something to share please do,don't throw a bone and then do the opposite.

PFS_BlackBird
05-23-2008, 04:28 PM
I am on topic. I don't throw a bone and pull it away. I am here to offer TS what i have to share. But i'm not so stupid to write it down here for others to tear it apart with their biased opinions and 'them and us' syndroms.

Remind me not to post anymore.


BB

DKoor
05-23-2008, 05:11 PM
Originally posted by PFS_BlackBird:
I was going to post something here, but the previous poster made me change my mind: it would be a waste of time. Glad i play online!

DKoor, i have met you in the air a couple times. It would be a pleasure if you would get on comms so we can hook up together. I can't give you the holy grail in fighting D-9's but i can try to show how i deal with them.


BB Thanks mate... I'll have that in mind http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_cool.gif .

Wildnoob
05-23-2008, 05:21 PM
sorry, I don't read wat is being discuss here rigth now.

anyway, for me both aircraft where very similary.

I already have long figths against the FW-190 D9 with the P-51.

Brain32
05-23-2008, 06:23 PM
Originally posted by M_Gunz:
LOL! It doesn't matter what you think, or post, as long as you play online! LMFAO!
Well if that's not reasonable, I don't know what is, maybe you shoud browse through other forums here on ubi and preach about games other people play http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/88.gif

@Havok I did read further, but I don't think the guys(and there was loads of them) I nailed while flying P51D are so much worse pilots than I am to repediatly loose from a plane that is "worse in every category" http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

@DKoor I see you like IL-2compare, can't blaim you so do I, but one question m8; do you fly P51 always with 100% of fuel??? Yes? No? Well it does not matter because here is the comparision of FW190D9 at 100% of fuel and P51D at 50% of fuel, note that that means they are at the pretty much same level of fuel or very close to that:
http://i243.photobucket.com/albums/ff140/_Brain32/new_insight.gif

M_Gunz
05-23-2008, 06:52 PM
Take it elsewhere Gunz I said to keep this thread on topic,first and final warning.

GH_Klingstroem
05-24-2008, 09:44 AM
Originally posted by Brain32:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by VMF-214_HaVoK:
That question was which plane does what better, which plane has the best performance. The answer is clearly the FW-190D. It simply does everything better then the Mustang.

OK that's great, me and Kling for example just love 190D9 pilots that think like that http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif


But also as someone said here, a fw190 with a P51 on its six stands a much better chance of surviving and making it back to base than vice versa due to the cannons creating alot of damage but the 50s being fairly weak from dead 6..

This is ofcourse true although I would refraze that into a fw190 hit by P51 stands much better chance of surviving than P51 hit by Fw190. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yes that is what I meant... http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif
I guess I should also be clear that I meant; if both of you are running as fast as possible and the P51 is chasing the fw190 the 190 has much better chance of surviving since the a distance of more than 300m seems to take all the kinetic energy away from the 50 cal MG. However if the fw190 is within 200m I feel really sorry for him.

Man I cant count the amount of times I have had a Dora on my six, slowly outrunning him on the deck and seen blue tracers passing by and dissappearing right infront of you, indictating that its max distance for the rounds, just to get one hit and lose the wing... http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-sad.gif Not saying its unrealistic, but very very annoying!

Wouldnt happen if it was the other way around...

Actually I wonder what the reason is that if I hit someone with the 50cal at say 500m and see plenty of hit flashes, very very often the target doesnt register and damage, however if I score the same amount of hits at 150m he might have been critically wounded. As far as I remember RL 50 cals were said to be effective to 1000m+ no?!

I did some testeting online 1vs1 and its true. I just get the feeling that beyond 300m or so the round has just lost all its KE...

DKoor
05-24-2008, 09:46 AM
Originally posted by Brain32:
@DKoor I see you like IL-2compare, can't blaim you so do I, but one question m8; do you fly P51 always with 100% of fuel??? Yes? No? Well it does not matter because here is the comparision of FW190D9 at 100% of fuel and P51D at 50% of fuel, note that that means they are at the pretty much same level of fuel or very close to that:
http://i243.photobucket.com/albums/ff140/_Brain32/new_insight.gif http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_cool.gif thanks for the info. I fly P-51D with 50% fuel http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif .

GH_Klingstroem
05-24-2008, 09:52 AM
Originally posted by DKoor:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Brain32:
@DKoor I see you like IL-2compare, can't blaim you so do I, but one question m8; do you fly P51 always with 100% of fuel??? Yes? No? Well it does not matter because here is the comparision of FW190D9 at 100% of fuel and P51D at 50% of fuel, note that that means they are at the pretty much same level of fuel or very close to that:
http://i243.photobucket.com/albums/ff140/_Brain32/new_insight.gif http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_cool.gif thanks for the info. I fly P-51D with 50% fuel http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif . </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I general I stay away from turnfights till I have 50-60 gals left in the fuselage tank. You never know how much fuel the guy u are fighting has. If just took off and is climbing, chances are that u can very successfully turnfight him. But to be on the safe side, 50-60US gals seems to do the trick for me personally. Its odd, when I get down to 20 US gals, the p51 becomes too responsive for me and starts to wobble a little bit even..