PDA

View Full Version : searching Fw 190 picture that..



Heliopause
05-06-2007, 01:39 PM
I believe was posted a couple of weeks ago. It showed a blown 20mm canon in the wingroot.
Anybody knows where it can be found?

Rammjaeger
05-06-2007, 06:03 PM
http://img101.imageshack.us/img101/6555/shellexplodedinbarrelno3.th.jpg (http://img101.imageshack.us/my.php?image=shellexplodedinbarrelno3.jpg)

AKA_TAGERT
05-06-2007, 07:23 PM
So that is all the damage a 20mm does to a plane? IL2 really does give that thing too much credit!

Flying_Mex
05-06-2007, 07:48 PM
I believe that the picture shows a 20mm cannon that blew up or got blown up, not the damage caused by a 20mm shell. Correct me if I am wrong but that is what I gathered from the original poster..

Ratsack
05-06-2007, 08:47 PM
Yes, but you have to remember that this picture is of a Focke-Wulf, so it's tougher than your nancy American planes. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/winky.gif

cheers,
Ratsack

Waldo.Pepper
05-06-2007, 08:57 PM
http://forums.ubi.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/23110283/m/775...751072255#7751072255 (http://forums.ubi.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/23110283/m/7751072255?r=7751072255#7751072255)

LEBillfish
05-06-2007, 09:02 PM
Actually, if a shell going off in the barrel the result I'd say is reasonable. Barrel restricting and directing much of the explosion out the muzzle, fragmentation perhaps also limited yet clearly blowing the barrel off. Looking just rear of the cowling and leading edge of the wing clearly showing it was by no means a nothing incident....

So in the end reasonable......and lucky compared to damage shown say to bombers r/l....It very well could be and more my guess that the round itself didn't go off just simply a barrel plugged like would happen with say a shotgun/etc..

Heliopause
05-07-2007, 01:09 AM
Thanks guys for the info. Reading a book I noticed a document of a JG 1 pilot who ran (flew) into the same situation.
He describes attacking a boeing and at the second attack got a "rohrkrepierer", something like barrelblocking I guess. His plane got a big whole and his right landing gear leg fell into downposition.

The picture I saw is from JG51, so it happend more than once.

http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b334/PauseHelio/Scannen0001-1.jpg

K_Freddie
05-07-2007, 02:17 AM
Think about it...
The shell gets stuck in the barrel, there's a lot of gas pressure from the first shell in the barrel, and the breech had probably already loaded another shell, and hit the firing pin.

You have one shell either going off before the second shell hits it, or you have 2 shells going off together. You in essence now have a small bomb, as the shell(s) are detonating within a outercasing (gun barrel), which increases the explosive force considerably.
Thus there is a much bigger BANG, than just a normal shell hitting a plate out in the open.

Yup, I agree here - other nancy planes would have fallen apart at the wingroot.. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Helio ... Could you tranlate that report, please. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_cool.gif

PraetorHonoris
05-07-2007, 02:39 AM
Originally posted by AKA_TAGERT:
So that is all the damage a 20mm does to a plane? IL2 really does give that thing too much credit!

They only say it was a 20mm. In reality it was a grazing shot of a single .50 round - after it bounced of the road and pierced a tiger tank http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/mockface.gif

Heliopause
05-07-2007, 10:25 AM
Combatreport on shooting of a Boeing
by Fuchs 4/JG 1
(Flown aircraft Fw 190 white 8)
on 11 december 1943 quadrant D02
(Harkstede-9 km east of Groningen)

At 11 dec 43 started as leader at 1120ours as part of 4 staffel II/JG 1.
vectored into Y-sector. At 1232 we came into enemy contact with 60-70 Boeing B17, who flew in 3 boxes.
After attacking as a group from astern/below I attacked the side the last 3 bombers of the left box.
After this the bomber on the outside left the group and fell back. I attacked twice thereafter from the astern/below position in 400-100m range.
The inner engines showed dark smoke and 3 men jumped with parachute.
Whilst on 2nd attack received a barrelblocking in the right MG151/20 wich caused a big hole in the wing and caused right wheel leg to go down.
I had to aboard the attack while my weapons were blocked.
The attacked boeing left in a westerly direction under the main group of bombers and lost height as it went.
Day of aerial victorie: 11-12-1943-1237 outs
Place of aeria.vict.: D02-Harkstede(9km east Groningen)
height of aer.vict: 7600m
airwitness: Feldwebel Lehmann 4/JG 1


Some details from the incident: Groningen is a city in the North-east of Holland
The american crew all survived and were interned
They flew B 17G "Cornhusker" 42-30667
Heinz Fuchs fell on 24th februari 1944

AKA_TAGERT
05-07-2007, 10:29 AM
Originally posted by K_Freddie:
Think about it...
The shell gets stuck in the barrel, there's a lot of gas pressure from the first shell in the barrel, and the breech had probably already loaded another shell, and hit the firing pin.

You have one shell either going off before the second shell hits it, or <span class="ev_code_yellow">you have 2 shells going off together.</span> You in essence now have a small bomb, as the shell(s) are detonating within a outercasing (gun barrel), which increases the explosive force considerably.
Thus there is a much bigger BANG, than just a normal shell hitting a plate out in the open. Ah, my bad!

So..

That is all the damage <span class="ev_code_yellow">TWO</span> 20mm do to a plane? IL2 really really does give that thing too much credit!

K_Freddie
05-07-2007, 12:01 PM
Thanks Helio...
Interesting that this took place at ~22 000 feet, where the FW seems weak in the game.
http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif

StG2_Schlachter
05-07-2007, 12:05 PM
The FW-190 was weak at that altitude. But it was still faster than a Fortess.

Manu-6S
05-07-2007, 12:23 PM
IIRC these problems could occur even to wing waepons when firing at extremely high speed. The structure of the wings could not withstand to.

I read something about this on P51 and MC205.

Blondeknght
05-07-2007, 07:54 PM
What most likely your looking at is a Detonation of a round. Much more distructive than a normal round going off. That is the reason you see more damage than expected. Two factors could be present... a blocked barrel with a double explosion of cannon shell or the detonation of the cartrige. The normal firing of a round is a controlled burn of powder. The Detonation is exactly that... all of lights off at once distroying the chamber and weapon.

Respectfully,

Blondeknght

LEBillfish
05-07-2007, 08:16 PM
DISAGREE....Haven't any of you seen a firearm that had a barrel blocked and the resulting damage?........I pose what you're most likely seeing is NOT a 20mm shell going off in the barrel yet more the muzzle blocked, the result shown the barrel bursting from "shell pressure" hence blowing the barrel off and the additional fragmentation simply like any other firearm.

AKA_TAGERT
05-07-2007, 09:24 PM
Strange..

When you guys talk about blowing up barrels due to high pressure..

It does not turn me on..

But..

When Billfish talks about it..

It kind of does..

Anyone else?

Blondeknght
07-02-2007, 01:22 PM
Originally posted by LEBillfish:
DISAGREE....Haven't any of you seen a firearm that had a barrel blocked and the resulting damage?........I pose what you're most likely seeing is NOT a 20mm shell going off in the barrel yet more the muzzle blocked, the result shown the barrel bursting from "shell pressure" hence blowing the barrel off and the additional fragmentation simply like any other firearm.

Haven't you sir.. seen a detonation of a shell.. handgun or other wise.. let alone a 20mm cannon with an explosive charged tip.. think about it. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/35.gif

Jaws2002
07-02-2007, 03:14 PM
Another acount from "GERMAN ACES OF THE RUSSIAN FRONT"


"He's still flying. Have another go", this from Xaver.
'I checked my tail. Xaver to the right, all clear to the left. Ahead
and below me the Russian's smoke trail. I opened the throttle and
followed him down, watching the range close through my Revi,
150, 100,75 metres . . . now! I thumbed the gun button. My tracers
buried themselves in their target. Large chunks flew off.
"Abschuss!!!'
'I was about to pull up when I was suddenly engulfed in a fireball. I was
thrown against the right-hand side of the cockpit as the 190 went into an
involuntary roll. Black oil covered the canopy - what the hell had gone
wrong? I somehow managed to correct the roll and could just make out
the horizon through the oil-smeared canopy. I levelled out, but then:
"Bale out!! You're on fire", Xaver yelled.
'My first thought: 1 5 kilometres behind enemy lines - that means
Russian captivity. Immediate reaction: don't bale out until you have
to. A quick check: no flames, so no fire in the cockpit. I tried the tap
which sprayed fuel on to the windscreen to clear some of the oil. A
distinct improvement. I was down to about 3000 metres. And now
I could see the damage: my starboard wingroot cannon was split
open back to the breech. There was a gaping hole a metre square in
the wing. The right undercarriage leg was hanging down in the slipstream.
The U-shaped oil cooler had been punctured and oil was
streaming back along the fuselage. My oil pressure was dropping and the
temperature climbing towards rhe red. But there was still a little time.
"Xaver, get me back over our frontlines. I can still hold her", I said in
clear, all thoughts of correct radio procedure forgotten.
"A bit more to your left and you'll hit Mga", was his reply.
'The Mga emergency strip was a small area in the middle of the forest,
half meadow, half swamp, directly behind our forwardmost positions.
Just three days ago Walter Heck, one of the 'old hares' of the Gruppewhh
more than 30 victories to his credit, had overturned trying to land at Mga.
The armoured headrest had broken away and crushed his verterbra. He
was completely paralysed and had died only yesterday. So, forced landing
or bale out? First get back over our own lines. I turned towards Mga.
Xaver was behind me.
"Watch out, Ivan's coming back again!"
'I looked up and saw a pair of LaGG-3s above me to port. They were
positioning themselves for a copybook bounce. This could be it, I
thought, as I turned into them and fired with everything I had. They
broke away beneath me. Their canopies were open and I could clearly see
their light blue overalls, tan flying helmets and the large, black-framed
goggles through which they both stared straight at me as they dived past.
'I had lost even more height and was now down to 1500 metres as I
again turned back toward the safety of our own front lines. I looked
around for Xaver and spotted another machine closing in on my tail. I
wrenched my willing black "12" into yet another 180-degree turn and
opened fire.
"Don't shoot! It's me," Xaver's voice remained calm as he easily evaded
my wild fusilade, thank God!
"Turn left, keep going."
'And there, only 500 metres in front of me, was the marshy patch of
ground between tall banks of conifers. The landing gear was useless, and
the flaps didn't respond. I lost height. The oil temperature was well into
the red by now, the engine could seize at any moment. Ease off the throtle, but the linkage had been damaged. Too much speed! Ignition off. The
tips of the conifers were whipping past just below me at something like
300 kph. Landing speed was 150 kph! I tightened my straps. The prop
windmilled. I couldn't get her down! The trees at the end of the strip
loomed up at a frightening rate... I had to go round again ... ignition
on, she wouldn't catch . . . hit the primer pump . . . the engine
howled and pulled me up just in time. Fortunately, I still had sufficient
speed to risk one last, highly dangerous 180.
A second approach from the opposite direction, a sudden
bang, and the propeller came to a standstill. The engine had
finally given up the ghost. I quickly dropped the starboard wing
and applied full left rudder, hoping the resulting slip would
help to push the dangling right mainwheel at least part way
back up into the wing before I belly landed. It worked. Planing
across the watery surface, I eased the nose up. A few more bangs
and crashes and I was safely down, skidding to a stop without nosing
over.
'Everything was quiet - completely still. Unbuckle the harness and
get out. But, like the throttle controls, the canopy release mechanism
had also been damaged by flying splinters. It was stuck fast and I was
trapped in the cockpit.
'Suddenly a hissing sound like a locomotive getting up steam. My first
thought: "the fuel tank's going to go up". The second: "canopy emergency
jettison!" That was jammed too, but I was able to get a foot behind
the handle and force it downwards. In doing so I caught a hefty blow from
the canopy side-frame as the release cartridge blew it off. But at least I was
out, even if I was in the middle of a marsh. I saw steam rising from the hot
engine as it lay in the water - that explained the hissing noise.
'I climbed on to the forward fuselage and waved up at Xaver who had
continued to circle above me. He saw that I was safe and sound, waggled
his wings and flew off in the direction of Siverskaya. Looking about me, I
realised I was standing on the engine which was still attached to the cockpit
section. Behind me the wings were sticking up out of the swamp grass
with the undercarriage still attached. Further away still, right at the beginning
of the long scar I had gouged in the boggy ground, lay the rest of the
fuselage and the tail unit. All in all a good landing. The aircraft may have
been reduced to wreckage, but at least I was able to walk away from i t . . .
once the airstrip's fire crew had rescued me from the swamp with ladders,
that is.
'It turned out that the cause of the damage was sabotage. Somebody in
the munitions factory - we never found out who, of course - had tampered
with a centrifugally-fused explosive shell, which had resulted in its
exploding in the barrel of my starboard wingroot cannon. The next round
- an armour-piercing shell - then got stuck in the feed and was detonated
by the following semi-AP round. It was pure luck that I was not injured."

Heliopause
07-03-2007, 01:14 PM
Interesting read Jaws2002!