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Daytraders
04-19-2006, 10:23 AM
confused with deflection shooting what distance should i shoot at in front, when plane is like 200m in front and comeing up from beneath or from either left or right, i have tried everything and just cant hit plane am i doing something wrong ?, i play at 1280 x 960 on a 19" monitor and i lead the shooting like 1cm of monitor screen if you know what i mean, my convergance is 200m for both guns also i try to shoot when at that distance, is there any rule or thumb or guide for leading. thx

mortoma
04-19-2006, 10:43 AM
Very hard thing to explain. All I can offer is this:
Practice
Practice
Oops, forgot to mention practice, did I??

Yep, it takes a good instinct to be a good shot, and this is aquired by diligent practice, tempered by a huge dose of patience. Maybe some others can come in here and offer a more technical explaination than I can. I sure hope so. But one thing that might help would be to practice on novice AI bombers in QMB. If you can get good hitting them while you are manuevering to avoid their gunners, you will only improve and this will help you hit fighters too. The more shooting at stuff you do, the better. Timing is a good part of it, the other is knowing where to place those bullets so they will hit the intended victim. Knowing how your aircraft will react to the control inputs you are feeding it is of course critical also. All those things will come together as you fly more and get experience. Even the great aces had to start somewhere. Even Eric Hartman was an embarassment at first.

nearmiss
04-19-2006, 10:47 AM
Originally posted by Daytraders:
confused with deflection shooting what distance should i shoot at in front, when plane is like 200m in front and comeing up from beneath or from either left or right, i have tried everything and just cant hit plane am i doing something wrong ?, i play at 1280 x 960 on a 19" monitor and i lead the shooting like 1cm of monitor screen if you know what i mean, my convergance is 200m for both guns also i try to shoot when at that distance, is there any rule or thumb or guide for leading. thx

Here comes the bad news...

The laws of physics

If you are turning pretty hard and taking deflection shots the forces of gravity and any G forces are acting on your bullets/shells as well as normal deflection of bullet trajectory. It's like a water hose, and let me tell you it can require an enormous lead to hit anything.

How to overcome this...

Practice with the QMB. Take a slower enemy like a hurricane and chase him with your BF109G, Spit, or P51D and go 1 vs 1. Start at about 3KM and go head on.

When you start the mission immediately click the ESC key and select record to make a track of the mission. Give it a name like 1-test so it will always be at the top of the list. Then go back into the mission and click the T key to create wingtip smoke. Then give the mission everything you've got. When it's done STOP the recorder. Go back and play the recording of the mission. Click the CTRL F2 key to ride behind the enemy aircraft. Take you mouse and push the enemy aircraft out a bit to get a good visual on the aerial combat. Now you'll get to see how you're flying and most important how you're targeting the enemy. You'll probably be amazed when you realize that shooting and targeting is not just about aiming and shooting, but how your aircraft is positioned and moving when targeting and shooting.

You need the smoke on the wingtips, because it gives you a very good visual on your flight path. You can see all those broad powered directional swings in your aircraft that mess with targeting.

If you give this a couple hard weeks and play the enemy at high skill levels 1 vs 1 you'll begin to get the knack of it. Then when you go ONLINE you'll still get the tar beat out of you by the guys that pair up against you. LOL

The learning curve really sucks...just like daytrading.

Hope this helps

Maraz_5SA
04-19-2006, 12:03 PM
The Sniper's Corner by Bruno will answer all your questions:

http://forums.ubi.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/23110283/m.../386100553#386100553 (http://forums.ubi.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/23110283/m/386100553/r/386100553#386100553)

then you'll have only to practice... http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Only one thing, deflection must not be measured in cm or pixels but in gunsight rings (that's why the gunsight ring is there, btw).

E.g. half a ring, one ring, one ring and half of deflection, etc...


Maraz

Airmail109
04-19-2006, 01:06 PM
Its like clay pidgeon shooting...follow the line of flight of the enemy aircraft...track the gunsight through his line of flight.....pull double the lead you think you should have.....open fire and let him fly into your stream of bullets....thats the easiest way for a beginner.

slipBall
04-19-2006, 02:09 PM
http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif All of the above

J_Weaver
04-19-2006, 03:19 PM
Yup, what all above have said.

I've been shooting skeet (clay pidgeons) for years. One thing I've found is that it is impossible to tell someone how much to lead a target. Its one of those things that you have to figure out for yourself. The best thing to do is pratice!

slipBall
04-19-2006, 03:32 PM
I also enjoy trap/ and skeet. I aim slightly high, and just forward of the target. It's the same in Il-2, you have to be slightly high to make up for gravity, and slightly ahead, you have to aim where the aircraft will be when your lead arive's there. How much to lead depend's on the target's direction, in relaton to your aircraft's line of flight, for example maximun lead would be in a crossing situation http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

VW-IceFire
04-19-2006, 03:33 PM
Originally posted by Daytraders:
confused with deflection shooting what distance should i shoot at in front, when plane is like 200m in front and comeing up from beneath or from either left or right, i have tried everything and just cant hit plane am i doing something wrong ?, i play at 1280 x 960 on a 19" monitor and i lead the shooting like 1cm of monitor screen if you know what i mean, my convergance is 200m for both guns also i try to shoot when at that distance, is there any rule or thumb or guide for leading. thx
Hi Daytrader,

Deflection shooting is one of those art meets science things. Unless you're flying a modern jet fighter and then its just science.

You need to practice deflection shooting until you are good at it. Convergence matters but it matters less as your sole purpose is to place a stream of bullets into a spot where the enemy will eventually occupy. Naturally if you fire at where they are, by the time the bullets get there he won't be at that spot anymore but infront of it.

Practice mostly...stay with one fighter and get a sense of where the bullets land when you shoot and then try and lead. In general...use the gunsight rings (where available) to try and lead your target.

Bearcat99
04-20-2006, 12:11 AM
Snipers Corner is a great tool... Also I recomend that you consider practicing with an open pit and no icons for a while.. so you can see clearly how the bullets behave.. keep in mind that your speed and angle of bank will have a huge difference on bullet behavior... dont get too comfortable with that open pit thouhg.... then I recommend you use the Mustand D-20... the K-14 sight is an excellent tool to help visuallize deflectio shooting as well... also initially practice using unlimited ammo... but shoot as though you were limited... never ever do the hold down thew trigger for more than a frew seconds at a time bit unless you know you are dead on and at convergence... otherwise you will tend to develope bad habits that will be hard to break.

horseback
04-20-2006, 12:34 AM
One point: the ballistics of different guns are modelled in this game. If I were you, I'd stick with one aircraft type or series until I got my shooting eye into shape.

I'd recommend the Bf 109F and later versions: good gun firing through the spinner/line of flight, fairly maneuverable and forgiving. Set your cannon and MGs to converge at around 200m, and have at it.

Wing mounted guns have a whole other set of issues, but they are easier to see and adjust to after you master the nose gunned a/c.

cheers

horseback

WTE_Galway
04-20-2006, 12:39 AM
Original RAF gunnery manual .. mid war .. very useful for both deflection shooting and also range estimation with icons off

http://home.austin.rr.com/jg13/fw190gunnery/Cleaned%20u...Gunnery%20School.zip (http://home.austin.rr.com/jg13/fw190gunnery/Cleaned%20up%20RAF%20Gunnery%20School.zip)

SeaFireLIV
04-20-2006, 05:31 AM
I`d just give up, no really. Just walk away...

Just kidding! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif Do as the above have said and have patience. Practise makes perfect.

Where you going? I was just joking - Why are you walking to that cliff edge? DON`T DO IT! NO!


NOOOOOOOOOOO!

R988z
04-20-2006, 06:43 AM
or else just fly bombers http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

then you can come on asking about how to place bombs accurately or how to use th ebombsight http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Daytraders
04-20-2006, 08:11 AM
bless what can i say all great tips and responses, i exspected nothing else thx guys, i have saved all the links also to my favourites and down loaded the programs and manual, i think i will practice in QMB, i like to fly allie when i can, and actually i fly alot of bombers and infact quite good on the gunner positions, usually take a couple of planes out on a sortie, but usually the enemy is comeing straight at me from behind on my 6 so easy http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif, so thx alot guys as usual great info here.

Daytraders
04-20-2006, 09:01 AM
anyone use the Sniper's Corner 2 excel program, i cant seem to alter any paramaters i only have excel veiwer thou could this be my problem ? do i actually need the full excel software, thx

TgD Thunderbolt56
04-20-2006, 09:47 AM
Go to your nearest trap/skeet range and practice your wing-shooting. Do this 3 times a week for a few years and you'll have an excellent understanding of "lead" and proper deflection.



TB

Bowman_61
04-20-2006, 10:52 AM
Daytrader

come into Team Speak on the Winds of War server 70.87.121.84 we (The Fallen Angels) hold regular training sessions, just give us a shout and we'll see what we can do, server address is the same just add :21000

Bowman

Treetop64
04-20-2006, 01:05 PM
Originally posted by J_Weaver:
Yup, what all above have said.

I've been shooting skeet (clay pidgeons) for years. One thing I've found is that it is impossible to tell someone how much to lead a target. Its one of those things that you have to figure out for yourself. The best thing to do is pratice!

Listen to the man!

Deflection shooting isn't something you get better at by burying your head in a book, or by memorizing "lead by 'X' amount" stats. The only way to get good at it is to get out there and just keep practicing until you get the hang of it.

Keep in mind, however, that it never gets easier. You'll become more proficient, but it will never become easy. Also, how much you lead depends on how fast you're flying, and what type of ammunition you're firing. You'll need to lead slightly more with heavier, harder-hitting cannon rounds than with say, .50 or .303 rounds.

Lastly, you'll need to stock up on a good supply of patience while you're practicing. Deflection shooting isn't something that can be mastered overnight!

Maraz_5SA
04-20-2006, 01:42 PM
Originally posted by Daytraders:
anyone use the Sniper's Corner 2 excel program, i cant seem to alter any paramaters i only have excel veiwer thou could this be my problem ? do i actually need the full excel software, thx

You might want to try Open Office (www.openoffice.org) it's free and might solve your problem

Maraz

BueJack
04-20-2006, 03:25 PM
Anyone will be lucky to shoot a plane down with deflection shooting, so your object here should be to damage the other plane enough to make it difficult to fly. Then take it out from a near '6' position.

As said previously, Aim ahead of the plane and when you fire slack off on the stick so that the plane flies through the stream of bullets. A 1 sec burst is all it takes. you'll get the feel of it.
http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_cool.gif

Rammjaeger
04-20-2006, 05:55 PM
Originally posted by Aimail101:
open fire and let him fly into your stream of bullets....thats the easiest way for a beginner.

Not the best thing to do if ammo is limited.

Xiolablu3
04-20-2006, 07:56 PM
Hi Daytrader.

Like Bearcat says the P51 D20 with its K14 gunsight is a good tool to help learn. You will have to lead a little more with cannons tho.

I would fly a few Wonderwoman missions for a while to get the hang of deflection shooting, but thats just me.

Daytraders
04-20-2006, 07:58 PM
Originally posted by Bowman_61:
Daytrader

come into Team Speak on the Winds of War server 70.87.121.84 we (The Fallen Angels) hold regular training sessions, just give us a shout and we'll see what we can do, server address is the same just add :21000

Bowman

thx for offer i will try to come soon http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif and again thx all and Maraz_5SA for that link and nearmiss u have mail http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif thx

Tully__
04-21-2006, 01:48 AM
...and i lead the shooting like 1cm of monitor screen if you know what i mean...
You probably need to at least triple that, maybe as much as 6-8 times that in some circumstances.

Daytraders
04-21-2006, 08:05 AM
Originally posted by Tully__:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">...and i lead the shooting like 1cm of monitor screen if you know what i mean...
You probably need to at least triple that, maybe as much as 6-8 times that in some circumstances. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

yes since setting up a few qmb sorties i see 1cm was stupid, it varies so much.

EiZ0N
04-21-2006, 09:24 AM
As has been said, it's very difficult.

At first I was hopeless at hitting anything.

I still amaze myself when I hit them with a deflection shot (even though I'm able to hit them all the time now).

It takes alot of practice, but when you can just automatically lead by the right amount and fire a single burst and hit, it's a fantastic feeling.

My advice is to fire in bursts. If the first quick burst misses, you can usually correct your target lead and hit with the second. It will become automatic and you won't have to think about aiming, but you'll just do it and hit.

Once you learn to fire in bursts and hit often, you'll be amazed at just how far you can stretch your ammunition.

I've been trying to do deflection shots with rockets lately, that's a different story altogether, and I'm completely awful at it! I'm not sure that it's their purpose http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Airmail109
04-23-2006, 05:04 AM
Originally posted by EiZ0N:
As has been said, it's very difficult.

At first I was hopeless at hitting anything.

I still amaze myself when I hit them with a deflection shot (even though I'm able to hit them all the time now).

Set the Rs-82s to a 1.2 tp 1.4 sec delay, its quite easy then.

It takes alot of practice, but when you can just automatically lead by the right amount and fire a single burst and hit, it's a fantastic feeling.

My advice is to fire in bursts. If the first quick burst misses, you can usually correct your target lead and hit with the second. It will become automatic and you won't have to think about aiming, but you'll just do it and hit.

Once you learn to fire in bursts and hit often, you'll be amazed at just how far you can stretch your ammunition.

I've been trying to do deflection shots with rockets lately, that's a different story altogether, and I'm completely awful at it! I'm not sure that it's their purpose http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Texan...
04-25-2006, 10:27 AM
But when you do finally connect on a full 90 degree shot where the target is coming from below your nose, wheeeeeeeee!