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Wedge598
04-26-2007, 06:30 AM
... can't be done from the carrier in the Single Player training Mission.



I've tried countless times with every conceiveable, flap, prop, mixture and trim setting I can think of and I just can't get enough speed on that short carrier from the default starting position.



I tried the Hellcat and Dauntless from the same carrier and launched both successfully and smoothly on the very first try. But each attempt in the F4U-1A or 1D results in a starboard wing stall immediately after takeoff.



This is somewhat disappointing as I love the Corsair and was really looking forward to flying it in combat. I've got a package of them for FS2004 that I do Carrier launches and landings with all time but in this game the aircraft is much less stable.

WTF?

mrsiCkstar
04-26-2007, 06:34 AM
Hmmm I use the training missions all the time to practise take offs and landings on the F4U. I think there might be 2 training missions for take off... one with a static carrier and one with the carrier going... make sure you're loading the one where the ship is moving.

GreyKnight1971
04-26-2007, 06:36 AM
Have you tried turning around and stopping right on the edge of the carrier deck, then turning back again?

I've had to do that before to take-off from a stationary carrier with a Tempest. Both similar sized aircraft aren't they?

With landing flaps down, you just miss the surface by inches, but it's just enough.

Wedge598
04-26-2007, 06:42 AM
I am using the moving carrier and I did try turning around to backup and get more room but I couldn't get the aircraft turned all the way around with the rudder. Is there a trick to turning it around on that small deck?

I've tried waiting until the last minute to lower flaps but the result is always the same. Even if I try to dive a bit off the carrier and to gain a bit more speed I still can't get away from the stall and nothing I do can stop the plane from rolling to the left and crashing.

It's very frustrating because I don't think of myself as an amateur flyer. In both the Hellcat and Dauntless I not only took off the first try but I landed both very smoothly back on the carrier the first try too. I've done plenty of carrier operations in FS2004 so I have some knowledge about what's involved but man I just can't seem to get the Corsair going.

GreyKnight1971
04-26-2007, 06:45 AM
Hold the brake and full rudder deflection at 30% throttle. Should turn you around nicely.

FlatSpinMan
04-26-2007, 06:46 AM
Use the brakes to pivot in a turn. Hold them down, apply rudder full and throttle up quite a bit. You can turn on the spot almost.
I don't know about taking off from carriers though - hardly ever do it.

p-11.cAce
04-26-2007, 06:48 AM
http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/blink.gif I just flew the carrier take-offs without too much trouble - though the static carrier was a bit unnerving! I set landing flaps and let them fully deploy, go to full throttle and wait until it stabilizes, lock tailwheel, pull chocks, roll for a second then push forward to get the tail flying, and try to maintain that aoa once I drop off the deck. The plane settles pretty good but I stayed out of the water.

Wedge598
04-26-2007, 06:55 AM
Thanks Ace. I'll try that procedure. I was using Take-off flaps. And I wasn't pushing the nose down on the deck. Otherwise I did everything you did.

Did you start from the default spot or move to the end of the carrier?

Crash_Moses
04-26-2007, 07:21 AM
Try using less fuel and/or ammo also.

Another trick some pilots use is to wait until the tail is in the air before lowering the flaps. This lets you build up a little more speed before you hit the end of the deck.

Keeping your rudder on the ball is very important also so try a little rudder trim before you unchock. It can make a big difference.

S!

Wedge598
04-26-2007, 07:25 AM
What do you mean by "keeping your rudder on the ball"?

I'm using a little right rudder to glide straight down the deck. Do I need to keep it applied on lift off too?

K_Freddie
04-26-2007, 07:50 AM
Ahemmm
-Keep chocks in.
-Full throttle.
-No flaps.

-Release chocks
-Push stick far forward as possible to get the back wheel off the deck asap.
-Try stay on the deck.
-Just past the island, your back wheel should be up, hit take off flaps.
-be ready to raise gear ASAP after leaving the deck.
-when leaving the deck, you will sink a bit, but hold the nose in a slightly raised position.
-With a bit more speed you'll be on your way.

Easy http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_cool.gif

p-11.cAce
04-26-2007, 07:58 AM
I takeoff from the spawn point - the dropping flaps while rolling works but imho adds another step to what is already a dynamic procedure. I think that the key is getting that tail flying asap and limiting control movements as much as possible.

Bearcat99
04-26-2007, 08:15 AM
http://www.partizanska-eskadrila.com/reference/images/F4Ua.jpg

The ball...... #12. Sorry for the huge pic....

Sounds like you may have to set rudder trim.... If you do not have a key set to rudder trim then do so. I used to use the arrow keys before I got my HOTAS.... Even when you ae flying try to keep that ball in the center.

By the way.... this page and others like it can be found on the Cockpit/Ammo Reference Page of the Essentials thread in my sig.

p-11.cAce
04-26-2007, 08:19 AM
So pretty -can't wait to see the final SoW pits!

LStarosta
04-26-2007, 08:29 AM
Another tip is to use full throttle when accelerating but cut the throttle a little bit as soon as you leave the carrier deck so that the torque doesn't make you lose control and stall over the water. Restore throttle after stabilizing the aircraft.

Wedge598
04-26-2007, 08:45 AM
LStarosta,

That sounds like my biggest problem. I've tried most of what everyone suggested but the thing that's killing me is the tendancy for the plane to roll right over hard to the left. I'll try cutting the throttle a touch and see if that works. I've been taking off with full WEP throttle.

Ernst_Rohr
04-26-2007, 08:54 AM
You can also get a bit more energy by setting your mixture for 120%.

You will have to map a key for it, but I found it makes a difference when trying to take off when heavily loaded.

Just remember to bring the mix back to 100% once you get airborne, or your engine will start choking out once you climb out a few hundred feet.

DooDaH2007
04-26-2007, 08:59 AM
Originally posted by Wedge598:
LStarosta,

That sounds like my biggest problem. I've tried most of what everyone suggested but the thing that's killing me is the tendancy for the plane to roll right over hard to the left. I'll try cutting the throttle a touch and see if that works. I've been taking off with full WEP throttle.

I remember reading, that one of the worst things you can do is to use aileron to pick the wing up when it drops...
The writer said to use rudder to pick it up...

I have not tried this myself yet, but it kindoff made sence while reading it...

I do not remember who wrote it...

p-11.cAce
04-26-2007, 09:15 AM
DooDah you are EXACTLY right - in low-speed flight you absolutely never ever ever use the ailerons to pick up a dropping wing! This error is what causes many of the stall/spin accidents that occur in general aviation every year.

When a wing starts to drop it is instinctive to use the ailerons to pick it up...but in low speed flight a wing starts to drop because the critical aoa is being reached and its lift is diminishing. If you crank in a bunch of aileron the effective aoa of that wing is increased further, worsening the stall. As if that was not bad enough, now the induced drag from that deployed aileron wants to drag the nose over towards the rapidly stalling wing which further stalls it and it drops faster. The high wing is now moving fwd in relation to the low wing as the yaw accelerates and soon you are over on your back or dropped into a fully developed spin. Always pick up a wing with the rudder in slow speed flight!

Wedge598
04-26-2007, 10:45 AM
Originally posted by p-11.cAce:
DooDah you are EXACTLY right - in low-speed flight you absolutely never ever ever use the ailerons to pick up a dropping wing! This error is what causes many of the stall/spin accidents that occur in general aviation every year.

When a wing starts to drop it is instinctive to use the ailerons to pick it up...but in low speed flight a wing starts to drop because the critical aoa is being reached and its lift is diminishing. If you crank in a bunch of aileron the effective aoa of that wing is increased further, worsening the stall. As if that was not bad enough, now the induced drag from that deployed aileron wants to drag the nose over towards the rapidly stalling wing which further stalls it and it drops faster. The high wing is now moving fwd in relation to the low wing as the yaw accelerates and soon you are over on your back or dropped into a fully developed spin. Always pick up a wing with the rudder in slow speed flight!

You just described exactly what was happening to me. That must be it. I'll try all these suggestions tonight and hopefully I'll be able to pull it off.

Crash_Moses
04-26-2007, 12:07 PM
Originally posted by Wedge598:
What do you mean by "keeping your rudder on the ball"?

I'm using a little right rudder to glide straight down the deck. Do I need to keep it applied on lift off too?

Yup...and maybe a little more once you lift off to counter the torque.

But it looks like everybody else already covered that... http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

As Bearcat said, you should always try and keep the ball centered.

S!

K_Freddie
04-26-2007, 12:23 PM
Err Wedge, you should be using a fair amount of opposite rudder to keep yourself straight on the deck. You might be neutralisng the rudder as you leave the deck - just keep using rudder and gradually reduce it as you raise flaps.

Oh forgot... forget about the Ball thingy, just look out your window!!
http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Crash_Moses
04-26-2007, 12:26 PM
That's what I used to do...

...but I kept getting motion sickness. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-sad.gif

strider1
04-26-2007, 12:47 PM
Proper suggestions, all.
I would take it in stages, as far as weight is concerned. Go with 25% fuel and no ammo at first, then increase as you get the hang of it. You will probably not ever get it off with 100% fuel and a heavy loadout.
Keep the canopy closed for take-off. Minimize drag as much as possible.
Try Zeus-Cat's "Straight from The Farm" campaign for carrier ops training. It is mainly the Dauntless and F6F but has all the campaign missions repeated in the "Practice" folder with many carrier-capable aircraft including the Corsair. Detailed info including all of the above suggestions on a progressive difficulty curve. Thanks again, Zeus-Cat, did it for me!
Good luck and Cheers!
Strider1

Wedge598
04-26-2007, 01:34 PM
Thanks so much for all your suggestions and help guys. What a great community this is.

And as a bit of a flight sim veteran (civilian sims anyway) I know all about coordinating my turns by watching the ball. For some reason I was thinking he was talking about something else. Doh!

Crash_Moses
04-26-2007, 02:39 PM
http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/88.gif

...and sometimes we're too much help!

VW-IceFire
04-26-2007, 04:10 PM
BTW: The default carrier takeoff missions put the Corsair and Hellcat (I think) on an Escort Carrier. Both need the carrier to be full tilt for a proper launch and its not in the training mission.

DooDaH2007
04-26-2007, 05:13 PM
A thought came to mind...

'Tail-lock can be a bad thing couse it makes for lazy/inperfect takeoffs'...

If you can trim your rudder for takeoff conditions instead, there will not be as great a 'shock' (e-loss) to your airodynamics by sudden hefty user rudder input, when your tail starts flying and tail-lock suddenly ceases function...

Learning to trim your particular plane for takeoff conditions, might gain you another 5mph...

Thoughts on this..?

Crash_Moses
04-26-2007, 05:43 PM
Good point, DooDah.

But I still think locking the tail is the way to go because you don't have to keep adjusting the rudder as you gain speed. At least not until the tail comes off the deck.

A pilot familiar with his aircraft should know how much rudder trim to apply prior to releasing chocks so that he doesn't have to compensate as much when the tail leaves the deck.

Of course, that trim setting will change based on fuel level and weapon loadout.

Nimits
04-26-2007, 07:15 PM
Just do what I did and go into the training missions with either FMB or a text editor and push up the CVs to 30 knots and the CVEs to whatever their tops speed is (18 or 21 knots, I do not remembers). The way the default training missions are set up is not realistic at all. Except in absolutely necessary, no American or Japanese carrier would conduct flight ops with a relative wind over the deck of less than 25-30 knots. It was considered dangerous to launch even an F4F or SBD (which both had lower takeoff speeds) from a carrier if the relative wind was less than 20 knots, and certainly nobody would have attempted to fly an F4U off a CVE with a wind over deck that low. Since there is no wind to turn into in 1946, one has to speed up the carriers in the training missions to give oneself a realistic shot at successfully completing the training missions. While the missions can be accomplished with the default low speeds, one is making things unnecessarily difficult by trying.

I might also suggest switching the CVEs in the F4U and F6F carrier take off missions for Essex CVs. While F6Fs and F4Us did operate from CVEs, it was generally with catapaults or a relatively high (30+ knots) wind over deck, neither of which works with the in-game CVEs.

p-11.cAce
04-26-2007, 09:11 PM
Bah! Anyone can take off from a stationary carrier in a Corsair with full fuel - no need to play with the carrier speeds.

tmrtex
04-26-2007, 10:26 PM
I ran this mission 5 times and crashed twice. I'm running "Complete Edition", so mission )or flight model)may be different? After I figured out that you need to use the rudder to level the wings, (not aileron), all was well. Then I decided to add a 178 gal drop tank to the equation. Crashed right away. Drank 2.5 beers, trimmed elevators up full, 110% throtte, NO flaps, release chocks...just before the end of the deck, dropped flaps to "landing" and raised gear in 1 motion, finished 3rd beer quickly, leveled wings with rudder, gently nosed up, and up up and away.

http://s176.photobucket.com/albums/w171/tmrtex/?action=...nt=Short_TakeOff.flv (http://s176.photobucket.com/albums/w171/tmrtex/?action=view&current=Short_TakeOff.flv)

Did trimming the elevators up all the way before take-off do the trick? I left flaps up initially to gain as much speed as possible.

I have no idea what I'm doing, but what a great game.

Nimits
04-26-2007, 10:30 PM
Bah! Anyone can take off from a stationary carrier in a Corsair with full fuel - no need to play with the carrier speeds.

I'm not saying it can't be done, but it is sort of "negative training." As a challenge to one's airmanship trying to do that is a fitting test. But as way to learn the proper procedures for carrier ops, not so much.

K_Freddie
04-27-2007, 01:38 AM
Originally posted by p-11.cAce:
Bah! Anyone can take off from a stationary carrier in a Corsair with full fuel - no need to play with the carrier speeds.
http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif Start loading the plane heavily, and it'll be a different story.

Wedge598
04-27-2007, 06:36 AM
Everyone will be happy to know I made a successful launch last night in only 2 tries but reducing my power just before I left the deck and using the rudder to balance the torque twist.

The combination of those two things was the trick.

Landing the sucker was a little tricky too. I didn't quite make it on my second attempt but I was very close.

Ernst_Rohr
04-27-2007, 08:03 AM
Two things on the landing;

The Corsair has horrible visibility forward and down, to minimize this, cut in sharply to the carrier on the downward leg. The idea here is to use the carrier as a visual reference and minimize the blind spot caused by the huge nose of the bird.

Once you come abeam of the carrier, start your turn in sharply. If you have the island in your 11 oclock, your coming in right. As you approach the rear of the carrier, you should turn in gently and keep the top of the funnel of the carrier just above your nose. This should keep the deck of the carrier in your 11, so you have a good idea where the position is. Once you have this sight picture, chop the throttle and sink down to the deck.

The big secret to this is to CHOP the throttle, your approach speed should be 100knots or less, and about 80 as your coming in on the final cut. Most folks come in way too fast and long on carrier approaches.

If you look at old footage of navy birds coming in, this is exactly how they did it.

Thanks to VF-51_Razor for the pointers! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

stansdds
04-27-2007, 10:00 AM
Not just USN Corsairs made the turning approach, it was pioneered by the Royal Navy.

Crash_Moses
04-27-2007, 10:29 AM
Which is why I prefer the SBD.

Much easier to land and it won the war! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

LStarosta
04-27-2007, 10:39 AM
Originally posted by Wedge598:
Everyone will be happy to know I made a successful launch last night in only 2 tries but reducing my power just before I left the deck and using the rudder to balance the torque twist.

The combination of those two things was the trick.

Landing the sucker was a little tricky too. I didn't quite make it on my second attempt but I was very close.

Glad it worked for ya!

DooDaH2007
04-27-2007, 11:55 AM
It seems trimming the crosair before takeoff to counter torque and left wing drop, was very common practise...

While looking for crosiar carrier landing video's, I came upon a crosair f4u training video, describing just that:
http://forums.ubi.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/23110283/m/9621026455

Crash_Moses
04-27-2007, 12:16 PM
You doubted me? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/blink.gif


S! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif