PDA

View Full Version : Could 4.10 Update lock the SFS files again and reunite the online community?



Mysticpuma2003
11-20-2010, 07:40 AM
Okay I know that we can't use the term that begins with the letter M, but it seems that a lot of servers have become fragmented with many different option needing to be installed to allow access?

Would it be possible with the 4.10 update (or 4.11 if necessary) that the game can once more be made 'Vanilla'?

This would mean joining a 4.10 server is just that. You have 4.10, you can log in, no supplementary files required, just 4.10.

I have stayed away from 'out-of-bounds' terminology, but surely this would be a benefit that could get the online community 'united' again?

DKoor
11-20-2010, 08:00 AM
I'm all in for that.

In fact I think many players are.

However on the other hand the M scene is strong so I don't think they will give up their toys either...

As I wrote this I have plain 4.09m install on my machine and I don't miss mods all that much... never really did, although I admit there are some mods that are really cool & useful (on objective basis, not just my opinion) and I think those should be made official in the nearest future so that the "vanilla" idea gets more supporters and less ammo to be attacked with.

thefruitbat
11-20-2010, 08:25 AM
Reunite the dogfight server community is what you mean.

mods makes no difference for squad flying/SEOWs etc, which is what i do, and in my opinion is the best form of online flying anyway. I have no interest in going back to public dogfight servers at all.

In fact i'd just loose a lot of stuff that we do, if sfs files were locked again, including the current BoB campaign thats being run internally, so a big no for my vote.

jarink
11-20-2010, 10:16 AM
Originally posted by DKoor:
although I admit there are some mods that are really cool & useful (on objective basis, not just my opinion) and I think those should be made official in the nearest future

Don't some of the bits that are supposed to be released in 4.10 come directly from the mod community (like the Cant Z.1007, Fulmar and Swordfish)?

JG52Uther
11-20-2010, 10:25 AM
A lot of what you will get in 4.10 wouldn't have happened without the mods...

BillSwagger
11-20-2010, 10:42 AM
If 4.10 or 4.11 incorporated more of the essential mods that most mod servers use then i don't see why a common ground could not be achieved.
As it stands now, there is the MDS mod, the 6Dof mod, and various sound mods, all of which are significant improvements to the vanilla package.
Other than new aircraft, are there any other mods you might consider essential that vastly improve the experience of the game?

If the sound, MDS, and 6DoF were already included in the vanilla game, along with some improved effects textures, i would have little use for mods other than to provide improved textures or repaints on some maps and cockpits.

Boosher
11-20-2010, 12:34 PM
Don't forget all the brand new maps. M maps have greatly contributed to the new life of this simulator. Even the 'new' Slot maps coming in 4.10 were M originally part of AAA's pack. I understand what you're going for, but locking the SFS files isn't the answer. Seeking agreement as a community is.

Urufu_Shinjiro
11-20-2010, 01:42 PM
We don't have to talk in code here guys, mod discussion is allowed, just limited.

My opinion, locking the SFS files at this point would only further fragmentation, you would have the same variance of mods as is now, plus 4.10, and an angry mod community.

Buzzsaw-
11-20-2010, 03:47 PM
Salute

No nessesity to unite the community, anyone who has the JSGME utility can select the mods he wants to use with a few clicks, he can then fly either a modded server or a standard server easily.

Xnomad
11-20-2010, 04:05 PM
I can't go back to non 6DOF servers. That would really kill my online flying for me. Going back to 2DOF is like something is broken in the game, it's really hard getting used to it again.

I think a lot of people came back to the game because of mods and especially because of 6DOF. They'll all stop playing online if it's no longer available.

Bearcat99
11-20-2010, 05:02 PM
Originally posted by BillSwagger:
If 4.10 or 4.11 incorporated more of the essential mods that most mod servers use then i don't see why a common ground could not be achieved.
As it stands now, there is the MDS mod, the 6Dof mod, and various sound mods, all of which are significant improvements to the vanilla package.
Other than new aircraft, are there any other mods you might consider essential that vastly improve the experience of the game?

If the sound, MDS, and 6DoF were already included in the vanilla game, along with some improved effects textures, i would have little use for mods other than to provide improved textures or repaints on some maps and cockpits.

For me the mods you mentioned are essential.. but I have to say that the new Mustangs are also very essential to me.. If TD and 1C were to own up and admit that the Mustangs FMs & loadouts were not 100% correct from the jump.. and IMO they weren't.. not that the new Mustangs are some kind of hot rods with uber guns because they aren't.. and at least look at what was done in the D-25s & 30s.. or offer those aircraft as options .. it would make a big difference to me. Also there are other mods.. like the default skin mod, the minimap mod, that offers bidirectional zoom on the minimap and a borderless minimap.. and the option to change one's loading screen.. those are for me simple mods that should be child's play to add to the sim. I understand the reluctance with the Mustang mods.. but at least with those other mods I mentioned they have no effect on the game play but add a lot to being able to personalize your sim experience. If you don't like the new Mustangs you can just choose to not put them in your missions like many squads don't make missions with a heavy Ki=84C presence because of the fact that while the plane is good.. in reality there weren't a lot of them produced compared to the rest of what was in the field.. but I agree.. the 6DoF mod is something that would be hard to do without.. and the thing that kills me is that the 6DoF is not all that ... pronounced.. I remember so many were talking about looking through planes and what not but that is not how it is implemented.. not in any of the mod packs I have ever used or any of the planes I have used it on. It is nice to have to hunker down in a razorback to line up the sight.. rather than hitting shift F1.

TheGrunch
11-20-2010, 05:47 PM
Originally posted by Buzzsaw-:
No nessesity to unite the community, anyone who has the JSGME utility can select the mods he wants to use with a few clicks, he can then fly either a modded server or a standard server easily.
This.
The other thing is, what do you think would happen, MP? All that would happen is that only about 50% (if that) of players would upgrade to 4.10. Most dogfight players aren't interested in radio navigation aids or any non-fighter aircraft, and MDS is already available to them. As for the new G-limits, do you think that most dogfight players even care about that?
Fundamentally, I agree with the sentiment, however. The stock game just runs better and aside from MDS I'm not hugely interested in many of the additions they have made. I've been wishing recently that there was any stock 4.09 no externals servers that had any numbers. Even the Russian servers that are only listed on X-Fire seem to have their own internal modpacks.

danjama
11-20-2010, 06:15 PM
I think online is fine and healthy.

But as said, this is a moot thread. Most with mods have KGSME, which allows easy switching between versions.

shotdownski
11-20-2010, 06:42 PM
I'm not super computer savvy nor do I have time to constantly check for compatibility issues, so I agree. I had alot more fun when IL2 was a "common" platform.

While I appreciate some of the mods, it's become too much of a PIA to keep up with the various changes and tweaks necessary to fly the different servers. I've even given flying with my squad because each campaign requires too much tweaking to get everyone's systems up to speed.

FWIW,

Shot

PhantomKira
11-20-2010, 07:13 PM
Originally posted by danjama:
Most with mods have KGSME, which allows easy switching between versions.

Most, but not all. I'm running at least one that said, very specifically, that it should go into the MODS folder and would not work if run through JSGME. I definitely agree, however, that JSGME is the way to go, otherwise.

TX-Gunslinger
11-20-2010, 08:52 PM
I agree with many of the seniments expressed in this thread. The situation, I believe is a complexity arising from:

- Age of the community. We get older - we must fight to learn new things. I'm 52 now - and was in my early 40's when I started with Il2. My friends who I've flown with the whole time, have aged too. Some, unfortunatley will stay with "what they are comfortable with" - I hope that will be few.

- Investment in time and effort towards mods and upgrades. I know a fellow, for example - that we all used to fly with. We lost him a few years ago, as he became one of the great community mapmakers. So, if you are greatly skilled and have devoted so much of you're precious spare time to modding/building etc... - how could you ever be expected to just forsake the value of your sweat and creations?

- Worldwide economic recession. The world is full of folks who no longer earn what they used to, or don't have a job at all. Those that do, are putting in more hours than ever. I sense that the time we all had a few years ago, is absent from many lives. Managing multiple installations of Il2 across the numerous O/S's that exist, limits in cash to purchase new hardware and flat-out no time must factor into the choices people are making with regards to all things Il2/SOW/ROF related. These factors will keep some, in their "comfort zone" longer than before.

As incredibly great as 4.10 is going to be, there will always be that "something" missing for someone. For me, the only thing missing is 6-DOF.

Amongst other things - the most anticipated thing for me is the new 'G' limits and radio Nav features. Flying and fighting with 'G' limits for me will be a huge change. So I'll take the time to gain experience with that feature and other increased difficulty/fidelity features in order to prepare myself for SOW.

Perhaps there is a chance that 4.11, if that occurs, will bring 6-DOF, I don't have any idea. Perhaps SOW will be released soon (seems likely), and will become the great "focal point" for the community. Perhaps the world economy will right itself and we will all have more time and money to throw at new systems and SOW. I really don't know.

One thing I am sure about, 4.10 will not simply change these complexities no matter how great it is (and I'm pretty confident it will be great).

On a last note, I so wish that UBI would be the SOW distributer. For whatever folks may say negative, they have given us these forums for about a decade, and I'll be sorry to see them go.

S!

Gunny

WTE_Galway
11-21-2010, 12:01 AM
The players like myself that quit online or just faded away as mods took over will not come back now, no matter what you do ... and the mod players will just keep playing 4.09 modded.

Seems pointless and may even be detrimental.

Mysticpuma2003
11-21-2010, 03:33 AM
Hmmmmmm, okay I see what you mean, and I agree that the MODS are and have been truly awesome.

I think my problem has been the fracturing of the online community because of the many variations of mods needing to be installed to play on specific servers.

So rather than just seeing a server on hyperlobby and joining it, you have to see which MODs need to be activated, de-activate mods that are already not needed for the server, then join. Server may timeout, so you go to join another server, but you have to change your Mods again, repeat until you get into a server which has players....and then play!

Hmmm, now, I want to join another server....go through the above again.

Look, I have an IL2 'Vanilla' install, a HSFX 4.11 Install and a UP 2.01 install on my Hard-drive. I use the mods for movie-making, but to play online is a real chore unless you use one-server only and stick with the settings.

Sadly, due to other commitments in an IL2 movie, I just haven't been able to get much time online lately, but wondered what the feeling would be to making 4.10 'unified' so that 4.10 Servers can be joined by anyone running 4.10, rather than a multiple switch on and off before even attempting to join?

Cheers, MP

Xiolablu3
11-21-2010, 07:38 AM
Guys - you can talk about mods all you like. Just dont as k for help with them - we dont do mod support.

LEBillfish
11-21-2010, 10:00 AM
Don't use 6DoF or MDS so don't miss them. In fact, 6DoF though improving the ability to see costs me enough control it makes TIR unusable.

K2

joeap
11-22-2010, 05:21 AM
Originally posted by DKoor:
I'm all in for that.

In fact I think many players are.

However on the other hand the M scene is strong so I don't think they will give up their toys either...

As I wrote this I have plain 4.09m install on my machine and I don't miss mods all that much... never really did, although I admit there are some mods that are really cool & useful (on objective basis, not just my opinion) and I think those should be made official in the nearest future so that the "vanilla" idea gets more supporters and less ammo to be attacked with.

I'm 100% with Dkoor on this. In fact I'm probably the only regular here who has not even tried the mods (though of course I appreciate that 4.09 as well as 4.10 was made possible by mods).

That said this is a pipe dream which the community will never allow.

M_Gunz
11-22-2010, 01:19 PM
Is this thread about wanting 4.10 to allow mods?

WTE_Galway
11-22-2010, 05:13 PM
Originally posted by M_Gunz:
Is this thread about wanting 4.10 to allow mods?

No .. the opposite.

Rjel
11-22-2010, 05:26 PM
Originally posted by DKoor:
... although I admit there are some mods that are really cool & useful (on objective basis, not just my opinion)

I'm having a hard time understanding your point. How was the objective basis for the good or bad mod reached? And by who? Was there a committee formed that passed this judgment? I'm not trying to be a smart a$$ but I really would like to know how you came to your conclusions without falling back on your own opinions.

h009291
11-23-2010, 12:01 AM
If it doesn't come out soon, there won't be anyone left flying IL2 .... geez what's the hold up?? They've been working on this for years. Sorry to be an impatient ying yang ... but good lord .. spit it out already.

BillSwagger
11-23-2010, 01:35 AM
Originally posted by Rjel:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by DKoor:
... although I admit there are some mods that are really cool & useful (on objective basis, not just my opinion)

I'm having a hard time understanding your point. How was the objective basis for the good or bad mod reached? And by who? Was there a committee formed that passed this judgment? I'm not trying to be a smart a$$ but I really would like to know how you came to your conclusions without falling back on your own opinions. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Before this thread spirals into good vs bad mods, maybe focus instead on whether 4.10 should be locked and if that is good or bad for the whole of the game.
I think mods have contributed to the ongoing development of the sim, and for the moment, some of what has come out of the mods is hitting the limit for what engine can handle. Locking wouldn't inhibit future ideas because if people wanted to continue to mod, they could using the 4.09m version.

Would this fracture the community?
I think the argument is that its already fractured.

Would it unite the community?
It could in some ways make for a consistent 4.10 game.
I think i've eluded to this in the past where it really depends on the choices of the servers. If the same game is used over a variety of servers then it would do more to unite the community.

Using the JSGME is not that complicated, but the ease of use and hopping from one server to the next is not as easily achieved as the idea would suggest. It has a lot to do with the growing number of mods and the differences used from server to server, and the fact that the list of mods is not always available to the user at the time of log in.

Not to mention coops. I sometimes find myself logging in and trying to hop in that last minute before the host wants to start. I then have to scurry and find the right mods and that's if i can get the host to confirm the version of his game and mods in his coop. The kicker is that sometimes i've missed a mod and despite loading the game, i'm not able to play. In that sense, i think the coops are effected most by the current format.

I think the players tend to take the path of least resistance and so they end up on servers that are agreeable to their habits.
Now imagine hopping off one server, into another with out having to adjust or fuss with any settings. You might find you don't like the plane sets, so you exit the server and see a large coop forming in the lobby so instead you join the coop. No scurrying around for the right mods and no mix ups that would keep you out of the game or having to reload.


Bill

Worf101
11-23-2010, 06:31 AM
Well, I'm not gonna lie, the Mods certainly ruined the online experience for me. As I age I guess I wax nostalgic for "the good ole days". For me that was pre-mods. We had about 15 regulars in the squadron. We flew coops WITH EVERYONE hosted coops FOR EVERYONE. We had dedicated allies (AH) dedicated enemies (Black Riders) and I couldn't wait to get one every night and meet my virtual family.

All of that "good stuff" was replaced with hours wasted with corrupt downloads, bad torrents and vain attempts to get everyone "caught up" on the latest and greatest. And just as soon as we'd all reach the same page, someone would find some new bright shiney mod that they just had to have and the whole damned cycle would start all over.

After fighting over one mod to many I stopped flying altogether for quite sometime. I'd come here, I'd email friends but that was it. Last night was the first time I'd flown with the squadron in about 8 months. It's nice but it ain't the same.. Mebbe you can't go home again.

Worf

Bankoletti
11-23-2010, 08:41 AM
I, for one, came back to this sim only due to the mods. New maps, 6 DOF, new effects... And I don't think I'm the only one. I think the scenario discussed here would only fragment the community further - besides all the versions having to play online now, one would additionally need 4.10 vanilla. I know I would certainly keep modded 4.09 besides 4.10.

jarink
11-23-2010, 04:28 PM
Originally posted by BillSwagger:
Before this thread spirals into good vs bad mods, maybe focus instead on whether 4.10 should be locked and if that is good or bad for the whole of the game.

I think that locking 4.10 would be pointless. There is no encryption that can't (eventually) be broken. Unless 4.10 would use some brand-new encryption method (doubtful, as that could be expensive), it would just be a matter or throwing enough CPU cycles at it until the new keys are found.

I think a much better use of programming energies would be to investigate ways of standardizing or at least streamlining the activation of mods for online servers.

If the online community really wants it badly enough, it will happen.

M_Gunz
11-23-2010, 06:39 PM
Originally posted by jarink:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by BillSwagger:
Before this thread spirals into good vs bad mods, maybe focus instead on whether 4.10 should be locked and if that is good or bad for the whole of the game.

I think that locking 4.10 would be pointless. There is no encryption that can't (eventually) be broken. Unless 4.10 would use some brand-new encryption method (doubtful, as that could be expensive), it would just be a matter or throwing enough CPU cycles at it until the new keys are found.

I think a much better use of programming energies would be to investigate ways of standardizing or at least streamlining the activation of mods for online servers.

If the online community really wants it badly enough, it will happen. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Not really. It could be as simple as generating a small PAR2 file of the SFS files at game start and then comparing that against a good copy of what it should be. Sure it would take a few extra seconds but try getting around that and still have your mod intact!

Hawgdog
11-24-2010, 06:46 AM
Originally posted by h009291:
If it doesn't come out soon, there won't be anyone left flying IL2 .... geez what's the hold up?? They've been working on this for years.

^this^