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AerialTarget
05-26-2005, 09:06 PM
Why do United States aircraft not have mixture controls like their real life counterparts? Russian and Japanese aircraft have mixture controls, so it's not that it isn't modelled in the game. And the P-40 had mixture control before it was actually removed in a patch! The real aircraft had mixture controls. If you look down in the game, you can even see the graphical model. Why, then, do the United States and German airplanes not have them?

Do you know how you are supposed to shut off an aircraft engine? You cut the mixture; simply turning off the ignition leaves fuel in the engine, which is dangerous.

I suppose that some are happy that there is another part of complex engine management that they do not have to worry about. I wish we had to deal with all of the engine controls, including blower and all that good stuff. I do understand that such things are not a very high priority to developers, and am actually glad that it is so. They should concentrate more on getting physics correct, like flight and damage models. But mixture control is something that is already in the game, and the P-40 even had it at one point in the game before it was removed.

AerialTarget
05-26-2005, 09:06 PM
Why do United States aircraft not have mixture controls like their real life counterparts? Russian and Japanese aircraft have mixture controls, so it's not that it isn't modelled in the game. And the P-40 had mixture control before it was actually removed in a patch! The real aircraft had mixture controls. If you look down in the game, you can even see the graphical model. Why, then, do the United States and German airplanes not have them?

Do you know how you are supposed to shut off an aircraft engine? You cut the mixture; simply turning off the ignition leaves fuel in the engine, which is dangerous.

I suppose that some are happy that there is another part of complex engine management that they do not have to worry about. I wish we had to deal with all of the engine controls, including blower and all that good stuff. I do understand that such things are not a very high priority to developers, and am actually glad that it is so. They should concentrate more on getting physics correct, like flight and damage models. But mixture control is something that is already in the game, and the P-40 even had it at one point in the game before it was removed.

Bearcat99
05-26-2005, 09:40 PM
They had auto mixture... although from what I have read they could switch from auto to maual. I would like that ability too. We actually had it in FB 1.0 but then after the 1st or 2nd patch it was removed.

ClnlSandersLite
05-26-2005, 09:44 PM
Should be:
Rich, Auto-Rich, Auto-Lean, and lean on most us aircraft. SOME of the earlies might be full control, but not most.

Honestly though, it doesn't matter. Most US aircraft have so much feul that you would have a hard time consuming all your fuel even on a quater tank, buch less a full tank. It's not like you can fly from england to berlin, fight, and come back in this game.

idonno
05-27-2005, 11:03 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by ClnlSandersLite:
Honestly though, it doesn't matter. Most US aircraft have so much feul that you would have a hard time consuming all your fuel... </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

It's not just a matter of fuel consumption. As you get higher it becomes necessary to lean your mixture in order to get the most power out of the engine, at least in real life. It doesn't seem that this is modeled in IL2. In reality, if you were flying around at 20k with the mixture set properly and you descended to land, if you didn't adjust the mixture, eventually the engine would cut out. Also a rich fuel mixture can be used to cool the engine. I haven't really tested it, but I don't think this is modeled either.

AerialTarget
05-27-2005, 02:15 PM
The P-38 pilot's handbook states that you're supposed to rich the mixture before adjusting the power. This is a small example of the sort of complex engine management I am looking for.

NonWonderDog
05-27-2005, 02:54 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">It's not just a matter of fuel consumption. As you get higher it becomes necessary to lean your mixture in order to get the most power out of the engine, at least in real life. It doesn't seem that this is modeled in IL2. In reality, if you were flying around at 20k with the mixture set properly and you descended to land, if you didn't adjust the mixture, eventually the engine would cut out. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

You're right that this isn't really modelled, but if you take the Russian planes up high without leaning the mixture the engines cough and sputter. I can't tell if the mixture setting has any influence on power or heat, though. I personally haven't been able to detect much difference between running at 40% mixture and 120% mixture, but the mere fact that 120% exists in the sim suggests that it would have *some* effect...

I'm also pretty sure that a few of the planes with otherwise completely automatic mixture do have a 120% setting, although I can't name any at the moment. I guess that's a bit closer to the American system than full manual control, but I *would* like to have mixture more fully modelled for BoB.

Kernow
05-27-2005, 03:19 PM
The mixture control does have some effect on power. If you climb while leaving mixture at 100%, not only do you start to leave a 'smoke' trail of unburnt fuel vapour, but the engine loses power. When you lean the mixture you'll hear the engine pick-up and see the engine gauges react.

Quite what the ideal settings are is anyone's guess. Likewise the precise meaning of '70% mixture,' for example, is uncertain. However, assuming the percentage is a direct measure of mixture strength relative to the sea-level, 100%, mixture, and looking at the air density at altitude, relative to sea-level density, I came up with the following table which seems to work:

90% at 1000m
80% at 2200m
70% at 3500m
60% at 5000m
50% at 6500m
40% at 8500m
30% at 10700m

I've assumed that if the air is x% as dense as it was at sea-level, then the mixture also needs to be x%. The figs come from the real atmosphere; who knows whether the FB/PF atmosphere matches.

However it is actually modelled, those values seem to work well enough. It doesn't appear to be a highly sensitive control, as anything +/- 10-20% looks and sounds much the same. If you have a larger setting error you'll probably start to notice the engine running rough.

ClnlSandersLite
05-27-2005, 04:14 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">As you get higher it becomes necessary to lean your mixture in order to get the most power out of the engine, at least in real life. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I'm aware of fuel mixture at altitude settings. However, american planes are auto. The other effects aren't really modeled so, it's JUST a matter of consumption on automatic planes.

idonno
05-27-2005, 04:44 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Kernow:

90% at 1000m
80% at 2200m
70% at 3500m
60% at 5000m
50% at 6500m
40% at 8500m
30% at 10700m

</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Thanks for this Kernow, I'll have to give it a try.

AerialTarget
05-27-2005, 07:57 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by ClnlSandersLite:
However, american planes are auto. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

In real life, they are not completely automatic as they are in the game. There are plenty of reasons in real life to fiddle with the mixture, even on United States aircraft.

ClnlSandersLite
05-27-2005, 08:41 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">automatic as they are in the game. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

This is the point; yes? There are very few effects of fuel mixture in this game. The only 2 that really matter in game are engine performance at altitude (automatic in this game for the US) and fuel consumption (doesn't really matter as distances are short). Therefore, it is not worth the dev teams time to incorporate that into all the US aircraft when they could be doing something worthwhile. You know, like adding more planes, maps, vehicles, fixing major bugs, etc. Simpler to just assume that all US aircraft are running auto rich.

As to the P-40, it wouldn't suprise me if they removed it because it was broken/not right anyways.

msalama
05-28-2005, 12:49 AM
...but don't some Axis planes have an auto/manual mixture switch implemented? And if so, why not use that w/ U.S planes too where historically correct?

(And yes, the mixture setting does have an effect on engine performance...)

Kernow
05-28-2005, 01:11 AM
I think the Hurri II used to have manual mixture, but it was changed in a patch (early IIs did indeed have manual mixture, but most had automatic, which I think was retrofitted to earlier ac). Likewise, I think some early Spit Vs had manual mixture controls, but otherwise most western allied fighters seem to have had an auto setting or were fully automatic.

German fighters, like the American ones, also have auto mixture. Interestingly, it seems these auto mechanisms were not fitted to (some) bombers; He-111 and SBD both have manual mixture, I think the Stuka and A-20 are the same, and I can't remember what the B-25 has right now. So not all American / German ac have auto mixture.