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JulietHotel13
03-27-2006, 12:24 AM
i just realized what game lockdown and vegas kinda came from...Shadow Ops:Red Mercury...not sure if any of you guys has ever played that game before or even heard of it but lockdown is almost identical to Shadow Ops...linear plus has a VERY BIG hollywood type feel to it...now im beginning to wonder if this is where ubisoft got there idea from...not sure if im allowed to post another game site but here it goes... http://www.atari.com/shadowops/ ...

TexasRanger_562
03-27-2006, 02:25 PM
I played the demo of SHADOW OPS: RED MERCURY when it came out and it totally sucked. You couldn't even lean left/right.

But if UbiSoft is basing Rainbow Six games on the format of other games, then it's really terrible. They should have been looking at the past Rainbow Six's, and at Tom Clancy's books, not at some random FPS game that came out and just flopped.

BigCat75
03-27-2006, 02:39 PM
But if UbiSoft is basing Rainbow Six games on the format of other games, then it's really terrible. They should have been looking at the past Rainbow Six's, and at Tom Clancy's books

I was just going to say that exact same thing! BTW, seems to me Ubi could come out with a R6 game where a group of space marines are battling alien invaders on Pluto, and it would still be called "Tom Clancy's" R6. That name has no significance anymore; it used to mean authenticity, realism. Now it just means guns and shooting, yehaaa!

FI_FlimFlam
03-28-2006, 07:02 AM
Unfortunately what is happening is that UBIsoft is trying to "appeal to a wider audience" by changing many aspects of the game. What they really fail to understand is that Rainbow Six through previous iterations, has carved a niche and a specific identity for itself based on it's very particular gameplay. By changing it around UBIsoft is tossing that identity and the gameplay that has made it unique. Now with the next installment, if they continue to make the same mistakes they did with Lockdown (too many changes to the game that are designed to appeal to a wider audience) the same thing is going to happen to it as it did with Lockdown.

They are completely hung up with the concept of "appealing to a wider audience" and are homogenizing the series in line with just about every other FPS out there. We'll see just how far they take that appeal and what damage they will do to the next installment with it.

KungFu_CIA
03-28-2006, 07:43 AM
Originally posted by FI_FlimFlam:
Unfortunately what is happening is that UBIsoft is trying to "appeal to a wider audience" by changing many aspects of the game. What they really fail to understand is that Rainbow Six through previous iterations, has carved a niche and a specific identity for itself based on it's very particular gameplay. By changing it around UBIsoft is tossing that identity and the gameplay that has made it unique. Now with the next installment, if they continue to make the same mistakes they did with Lockdown (too many changes to the game that are designed to appeal to a wider audience) the same thing is going to happen to it as it did with Lockdown.

They are completely hung up with the concept of "appealing to a wider audience" and are homogenizing the series in line with just about every other FPS out there. We'll see just how far they take that appeal and what damage they will do to the next installment with it.

...Because UBI is more concerned with the casual gamer (on all platforms) than gamers in general and they assume, either right or wrong, the casual gamer doesn't want an overly complex game like the original versions of R6 and instead wants a simplified run-and-gun, Halo-type experience simply because Halo sold millions more copies than R6 ever would/will on any platform.

This appears to be the logic which is driving a lot of the decisions at the top (CEOs; CFOs) and while I don't begrudge UBI wanting to make money... The fact is this appears to be another case of the "G" word... Greed... Because R6 was never "mainstream" to begin with AND the fact it actually did go mainstream and was a huge success on the consoles with R63 and BA... Yet apparently, this isn't enough for them.

I think this latter part is what really irks people and long-time R6 fans to no end... Beyond them just trying to homogenize the series and make it just like every other arcade shooter out there because they aren't doing it for any "higher" purpose, or to even make a better game, obviously.

Woosy
03-28-2006, 08:32 AM
I'm not so sure, because even playing GRAW on the 360, it is hard for me, there is so much to do and take in on the fly, compared with the original game which was just plain in comparison.

I just think Lockdown is a stocking filler till the new game comes out. They needed the money to hit targets and thats their way of doing it, instead of waiting a few months down the line when the next one is due. The thing is alot of new gamers who brought the xbox 360 won't have a clue what R6 is and buy it and most probably enjoying it, while the old fans won't like it.

Ubisoft have shown they do listern on some games, just not this one, i mean look at GRAW, it's a good game and it is quite complex, the Pc version, will be exactly the same in terms of quality. They can do it, just seems Rainbow doesn't make the moolah, they would like.

FI_FlimFlam
03-28-2006, 10:11 AM
It's really funny. It's like the Borg in Star Trek. All games will be assimilated. Seriously.

What I find frustrating is the concept that the Rainbow games NEED to be like every other game. Especially what won it accolades and critical acclaim is the very fact that it was different from other games out there.

When gamers prove that they don't latch onto generic games - especially when it comes to "franchises". Take a look at GTA. Whether you like the game or not, you have to admit that it's created a genre all it's own. Look at how many clones have come out since. Do any of them stand out? Are any memorable and give GTA a run for its money? Not really. Why? Because it's and it's sequels are sticking to the formula that sets it apart from the rest of the games.

Rainbow Six has had that difference. Now because it's a franchise, UBI feels the need to homogenize the game to make it "appeal to a wider audience". What they have shown is that it removes what made the game unique, accomplishing exactly the OPPOSITE of what they wanted. Sure it's more accessible to casual gamers but so are HUNDREDS of other FPS's out there. What's left to attract gamers to the game besides the Rainbow Six name? Absolutely nothing. The game offers nothing unique or memorable to set it apart from the rest of the chaff out there. All they have accomplished is the weakening the franchise in the name of "wider appeal".

KungFu_CIA
03-28-2006, 12:25 PM
Originally posted by FI_FlimFlam:

What I find frustrating is the concept that the Rainbow games NEED to be like every other game. Especially what won it accolades and critical acclaim is the very fact that it was different from other games out there.

I still hold that in my personal opinion R6 is still not as an "accessible" concept compared to something like Ghost Recon and this is why UBI is so hell-bent on trying to "widen the appeal" of R6 overall.

The reasons I believe R6 is and never has been an easily accessible concept -- niche gameplay mechanics aside -- Is because of a couple of factors:

1) The actual name "Rainbow Six".

Most gamers (depending on age) have never read Tom Clancy novels and don't know that Rainbow Six stands for a covert, NATO Special Forces unit who combats terrorism.

I think this is a big factor whether us long-time fans want to admit it or not and why R6 isn't that "accessible" right off the bat because I will tell you from working in the movie industry, marketing gurus spend hundreds of thousands of dollars securing rights to specific titles because a title can make or break a film at test screenings and the box office regardless if the actual content of the film is good, or not.

For example, the original title to "The 13th Warrior" (Antonio Banderas) is "Eaters of the Dead", based on the Michael Criton novel of the same name. The reason they retitled the movie version was because A) A couple of previous movies already have this title and they wanted to avoid any possible confusion, and more importantly B) The title conjours up a horror/zombie-type film and not a film about 13, Viking Warriors chosen to protect a village against an phantom army.

One can argue that Rainbow Six is a unique name... But it also tells a potential gamer absolutely NOTHING about what it is and worst case scenario, paints a completely different picture in the mind of a potential gamer.

When I hear the words Rainbow Six, I don't think of Tom Clancy or Counter-Terrorism.

What I really think of... And this may come off as very humorous... Is I think of A) something to do with multi-racial, multi-national issues ("rainbow") and or homosexuals because the Homosexual community has declared themselves the "Rainbow Nation" http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

You can laugh all you want... But this is my point in the average (potential) gamer outside of the franchise has no frame of reference for what R6 really stands for except some of the things I cited above and this is why I think the name R6 is actually a negative and goes against what it is trying to promote (serious, gritty anti-terrorism tactics, CQB and other things) which is 180 degrees from most people's first impressions.

I think marketing the franchise as just "R6" -- The actual letter "R" and the number "6" -- Would be far better in my humble opinion because it creates a sense of mystery in the potential gamer who will then want to find out what the "R" and the "6" stand for and if just happens to be a covert Counter-Terrorism unit, all the better.

2) Once we get past the name...

I think what has been a problem in past games (PC) is not just the overly complex planning phase... But the overall background of what R6 is and who it is made up of.

We talked a little bit about this on the Lockdown forums about how to immerse the player more by making the SP more like an RPG where the player is a new member of Rainbow and therefore, he/she will organically find out more and more backstory on key figures like John Clark, Kevin Sweeny, Ding Chavez, etc...

But what I also think makes R6 "unbelieveable" is the fact the entire roster of operatives are made up of the-best-of-the-best NATO has to offer... When NATO and the United Nations itself is a very abstract -- and even hated by certain individuals, domestic and foriegn -- Concept by a lot of people...

Compared to something like Ghost Recon where it is a Special Forces unit of the U.S. Military.

Even if people hate the U.S. and its armed forces... They immediately recognize who they are and respect what they do because of the mythos special forces... And specifically, U.S. Special Forces... Has built-up around these groups because there really isn't that much known about them or what they do -- just how they possibly do it -- Hence, there is an heir of mystery and excitement about them, but their basic roots are still very easy to understand compared to Rainbow Six which has a fairly complex backstory and is the part UBI can't seem to wrap their heads around on how to "simplify" even more (moreso than they did on the consoles by turning R6 into a four-man, Rambo SWAT team).

These are just my own personal observations, theories... But I believe there may be at least some credence to some of my points since if R6 was going to have gone "mainstream" and "appeal to the masses" it would have already done it in 1998... But this didn't happen and I am just presenting my own thoughts as to maybe why.

Yen Lo
03-28-2006, 05:54 PM
Originally posted by JulietHotel13:
i just realized what game lockdown and vegas kinda came from...Shadow Ops:Red Mercury...not sure if any of you guys has ever played that game before or even heard of it but lockdown is almost identical to Shadow Ops...linear plus has a VERY BIG hollywood type feel to it...now im beginning to wonder if this is where ubisoft got there idea from...not sure if im allowed to post another game site but here it goes... http://www.atari.com/shadowops/ ...


Ive got this game. Man talk about a direct port. It an awful game IMHO. It tried to market the "spray and pray" concept where you hide behind cover and point your weapon over or around and pull the trigger, and get mega kills. Also, if I remember right you play as one operator more like a Splinter Cell.

Hey KF do you accept PM's?

TAW_Fang
03-29-2006, 02:51 PM
Here's a question: Why does Ubi need to "Appeal to a wider audience"? The PC gamers MADE that game and in the process made a LOT of money for the company. Why are they trying to make a game for people other than the ones who play the god**** thing? That's like McDonald's making a super lean delicious cheesebuger targeted at vegans and vegetarians! The people that these games should be made for ARE THE ONES PLAYING THEM! Make a good game in line with the other games that you've made and new players will come. Simple logic to me but I'm not an egghead marketing "genius" so maybe there's something I don't know.

'nuf said.

Yen Lo
03-29-2006, 05:53 PM
Money, therefore it follows that thats exactly what it cost them isnt it? Aaahhh the Irony.