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XyZspineZyX
07-04-2003, 08:35 PM
I seriously think they should speed it up.

After FB came out, there was a big uproar in the community over how slow the trim was compared to IL2. The only reason they changed it was because of a bunch of trimwhiners, who were either too lazy to discover it's joys or who eqated it with "bat turns". Thats just the facts. People were PM'ing Oleg saying please do something about the trim because they were trying to come up with an excuse why they were getting their butts kicked online. I guarantee you if it were not for a bunch of whiners then trim would have never changed.

So now we find ourselves with FB. The trim has been changed so is it better than IL2??? Of course I don't think so. Anyone who likes to use trim in IL2 knows unnatural it has become now. And what of realism? So I can just tie a knot in my cali, bump my force, and cover up my tracks in the config and fly like a bat out of hell! Thats right only the exploiters now have the advantage. Before, anyone with a throttle wheel could play with the big boys.

The experiment has failed. The root of the problem has not been adressed. Time to revert the trim back to the way it was in IL2. A change is a must. They need to rethink the way trim hould be changed. A compromise might be trim that moves slower the more you move it. That way, pilots can have their fine trim control back. The time is now to begin a better trim campaign. Even the whiners of old have said they would like the trim from IL2 back.

<img src=http://lafayettefederation.com/screenshots/repository/turo/tn-Numbaone.jpg>
"The Force is strong with this one." -What an ace said of RayBanJockey during a fight when he was still a newbie.
<a href=http://www.theinformationminister.com/press.php?ID=612109283>news update</a>

XyZspineZyX
07-04-2003, 08:35 PM
I seriously think they should speed it up.

After FB came out, there was a big uproar in the community over how slow the trim was compared to IL2. The only reason they changed it was because of a bunch of trimwhiners, who were either too lazy to discover it's joys or who eqated it with "bat turns". Thats just the facts. People were PM'ing Oleg saying please do something about the trim because they were trying to come up with an excuse why they were getting their butts kicked online. I guarantee you if it were not for a bunch of whiners then trim would have never changed.

So now we find ourselves with FB. The trim has been changed so is it better than IL2??? Of course I don't think so. Anyone who likes to use trim in IL2 knows unnatural it has become now. And what of realism? So I can just tie a knot in my cali, bump my force, and cover up my tracks in the config and fly like a bat out of hell! Thats right only the exploiters now have the advantage. Before, anyone with a throttle wheel could play with the big boys.

The experiment has failed. The root of the problem has not been adressed. Time to revert the trim back to the way it was in IL2. A change is a must. They need to rethink the way trim hould be changed. A compromise might be trim that moves slower the more you move it. That way, pilots can have their fine trim control back. The time is now to begin a better trim campaign. Even the whiners of old have said they would like the trim from IL2 back.

<img src=http://lafayettefederation.com/screenshots/repository/turo/tn-Numbaone.jpg>
"The Force is strong with this one." -What an ace said of RayBanJockey during a fight when he was still a newbie.
<a href=http://www.theinformationminister.com/press.php?ID=612109283>news update</a>

XyZspineZyX
07-04-2003, 08:36 PM
Trim? Just a little off the back and sides please.



http://home.earthlink.net/~aclzkim1/_uimages/TBolt.jpg

XyZspineZyX
07-04-2003, 08:37 PM
if you want your trim back dont play FB, just play the original il2

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But I Have a Light
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XyZspineZyX
07-04-2003, 08:39 PM
I thought this thread was gonna be about something else. Oh well. Boring!

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XyZspineZyX
07-04-2003, 08:41 PM
I am interested in how some aircraft like P11c, little used in internet dogfights, still have fast trim. Did they amputate the trim only for aircraft that were whined about? I dunno.

Just read Stuka must be trimmed up before ground attack. Is Stuka trim okay? Stuka could bat turn anyway.

XyZspineZyX
07-04-2003, 09:55 PM
RBJ, you are so wrong in so many ways it isn't even funny anymore.

Trim in real aircraft is a slow process. You cannot go from full positve to full negatve trim with a flick of a short travel lever. PERIOD!

You just want your little cheat back because now you have to fly on an even playing field and you can't get the cheap kills you used to get.

How old are you again?

<center><FONT color="red">[b]BlitzPig_EL</FONT>[B]<CENTER> http://old.jccc.net/~droberts/p40/images/p40home.gif
</img>.
"All men dream, but not equally. Those who dream by night in the dusty recesses of their minds, wake in the day that it was vanity:
but the dreamers of the day are dangerous men, for they may act on their dreams with open eyes, to make them possible. "
--T.E. Lawrence

XyZspineZyX
07-04-2003, 09:56 PM
lets no and say we didnt talk about trim

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Good dogfighters bring ammo home, Great ones don't. (c) Leadspitter

XyZspineZyX
07-04-2003, 10:06 PM
RBJ wrote:

- I seriously think they should speed it up.

Who is "they"?? If you mean Oleg with "they", then e-mail him, but I'm in doubt Oleg will change anything on that./i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

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"Kimura, tu es une tªte carée comme un sale boche!"

XyZspineZyX
07-04-2003, 10:08 PM
Three more words in Turkish -

Towel...
Border...
May I see your passport?

/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-mad.gif



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</center>

XyZspineZyX
07-04-2003, 10:12 PM
An RBJ trim-whiner thread?

Now there's a novelty!/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-tongue.gif

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XyZspineZyX
07-04-2003, 10:20 PM
- Trim in real aircraft is a slow process. You cannot
- go from full positve to full negatve trim with a
- flick of a short travel lever. PERIOD!


Thank you !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I was wondering where he was comming from..

In real A/C it really does take a while for the trim *wheel* to take effect. No way around it with cable actuated trim controls in WW II era aircraft.
It does TAKE A WHILE !!!
Did in the T 6Texan I've flown, and in the several Cessna's I've had the chance to fly.

My father was an aircraft mechanic back then, and rigging was his specialty, and he told me that NO aircraft, even those with electric activated trim was instantly responsive. NONE !!!
It took FBW to eventually get close......


I think you are right... What he wanted was his little way of playing the sim back, and is PO'd it changed in the first place.


Allan

XyZspineZyX
07-04-2003, 10:22 PM
commie1 wrote:
- An RBJ trim-whiner thread?
-
- Now there's a novelty!<



I like the pic from Clockwork Orange you have here.

Priceless !!



/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

XyZspineZyX
07-04-2003, 10:24 PM
"In real A/C it really does take a while for the trim *wheel* to take effect. No way around it with cable actuated trim controls in WW II era aircraft.
It does TAKE A WHILE !!!"


Agreed Dave

Just a moment...


RBJ-35
http://www.tm001d6792.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/bs1.gif


The RBJ-35 unit will fail in 72 hours. I suggest he perform an EVA and repair the RBJ-35 unit /i/smilies/16x16_robot-wink.gif

<center>http://www.churchofthegrey.com/coolferret/hal9000/hal2.jpg <marquee>Well, I don't think there is any question about it. It can only be attributable to human error. This sort of thing has cropped up before and it has always been due to human error.</marquee></center

Message Edited on 07/04/0309:28PM by Heuristic_ALgor

XyZspineZyX
07-04-2003, 10:30 PM
I don't understand because I never played the original IL2.

I thought trim was used to slightly adjust your flight path to straight and level. I've read some real life accounts of pilots using trim to pull out of tough dives. What else can it be used for?

XyZspineZyX
07-04-2003, 10:36 PM
False. Cessna 152 trim is very quick indeed. Its not instantaneous "on a slider" in real life, but nobody here is claiming that. Its *amazing* to see this middle ground sidestepped by the Ace arcade internet dogfighters.

Its interesting to see a publically admitted Ace arcade internet dogfighter him/her self exposing the historical fraud of Ace arcade internet dogfighters (5% dogfighting), and the amazing hysterical internet reactions. I love watching this.

havingtonsoffunsmileyface.rbj

XyZspineZyX
07-04-2003, 10:36 PM
Heuristic_ALgor wrote:
- Agreed Dave
-
- Just a moment...



RBJ, this (http://ins5.inetstrat.com/hal/halthisconv.wav)is for you./i/smilies/16x16_smiley-tongue.gif

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XyZspineZyX
07-04-2003, 10:46 PM
gee whiz, my stars , ill be a blue-nosed gopher;
another rbj post obviously trolling for negative, insulting responses which you guys always supply.

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regards: surveyor_1

XyZspineZyX
07-04-2003, 10:48 PM
I'm sure real pilots could feel the trim right away and not have to wait.

Anyway you guys probably never used trim anyway so what do you know. Even Oleg thinks above all this is a game. Well, the game plays better the old way.

And as far as me getting my cheat back I can still cheat now so no I'm not complaining because I lost my cheat.

You people need to quit just disagreeing with things I say and recognize I can make this game for the better.

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"The Force is strong with this one." -What an ace said of RayBanJockey during a fight when he was still a newbie.
<a href=http://www.theinformationminister.com/press.php?ID=612109283>news update</a>

XyZspineZyX
07-04-2003, 10:52 PM
- Anyway you guys probably never used trim anyway so
- what do you know.



More than you ??? /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

I have flown real aircraft, (T 6, sevral C 172's) and no question the trim is not instantanious as it was in IL 2.

I for one was kinda glad he remodeled it to be more realistic.



Now do tell us your real life flying expirences please.

XyZspineZyX
07-04-2003, 10:56 PM
hu ho this guy is back to it again


"Never forget the past so we dont make the same mistakes in the future"

XyZspineZyX
07-04-2003, 10:59 PM
Trim was fast enough for my instructor to fly purely using trim--he was a showoff. I wonder why nobody is answering why some FB flyable planes have high trim (too much really) and some are trim crippled. I may be wrong, but I bet the crippled trims are to be found on the popular internet FB fighters.

XyZspineZyX
07-04-2003, 11:06 PM
RayBanJockey wrote:

-Let's talk about trim.

<img src=http://users.urbi.com.br/leocosta/forums/howaboutnodrevil.jpg>


-I seriously think they should speed it up.

<img src=http://users.urbi.com.br/leocosta/forums/howaboutnodrevil.jpg>

-
- - Time to revert the trim back
- to the way it was in IL2.

<img src=http://users.urbi.com.br/leocosta/forums/howaboutnodrevil.jpg>


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XyZspineZyX
07-04-2003, 11:13 PM
Any thing the Troll BJ says lack fundament, as usual, he will never accept that In real life the use of Trim is not as arcadish as he dreams , Read the following WW2 Pilot Statements, and REAL LIFE training material, as well as a Direct translation of an Operating manual of the Me 109., misuse of trim in a high performance aircraft is lethal to the Plane and to the pilot:


Achilles97 wrote:
- I don't understand because I never played the
- original IL2.
-
- I thought trim was used to slightly adjust your
- flight path to straight and level. I've read some
- real life accounts of pilots using trim to pull out
- of tough dives. What else can it be used for?

http://mywebpage.netscape.com/kurbalaganda/Bf109G6+trim+instructions.pdf

http://mywebpage.netscape.com/kurbalaganda/trim+expanded.jpg


http://mywebpage.netscape.com/kurbalaganda/trim350mph.jpg


http://mywebpage.netscape.com/kurbalaganda/trim1.jpg


http://mywebpage.netscape.com/kurbalaganda/trim2.jpg


http://mywebpage.netscape.com/kurbalaganda/Pawnee1995.jpg

A man and his Messerschmitt..its a beautiful thing
[B]Burning Avgas at alarming rates since 1990. [B]
<G>Visit http://www.aopa.org<G>
I love the Me 109 but... "Ich bin ein Würgerwhiner"!! too /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

XyZspineZyX
07-04-2003, 11:22 PM
Thankyou Loco~S

The first introduction is what I needed:: "...and other prolonged flight conditions without the pilot having to hold pressure on the controls."

That's what I worry about. Trimming for steady climb in FB (edit::seems to) take forever. For whatever reasons, if RBJ is correct about the *reason* for trim change to avoid 5% internet cheating, and ~we~ seem to be backing him up without admitting it, then this hurts people who wish to fly in prolonged flight conditions without having to hold pressure on the controls.

One can smell the FEAR over this trim subject.


5% dogfighters, afraid? I am, impressed.


~ atmosFEAR



Message Edited on 07/04/0310:32PM by LEXX_Luthor

XyZspineZyX
07-05-2003, 12:20 AM
Lexx, I am A RL Flight instructor, and believe me, flying the plane with Trim is quite easy..IF>>you anticipate and time the movements to make the plane do what YOU want it to do, you can take off , climb, level off, turn, descend and land on trim alone, but what you can NOT do is perform aerobatics with trim alone, it takes too much TIME to make the corrections necessary to make it right, of course you can trim it in advance, and then let the controls go to see how many rivets pop from your wings or how many seconds take for you to pass out on an unexpected high G maneouver, make your own numbers wing loading doubles at a 60 degree bank, and the plot goes to infinite at 90 degrees of bank ( of course, the wing will stall before that), and will send you in a nice flat spin on the direction of the last wing to generate lift. Trim is not cripled on FB it just has been slowed down to a realistic rate, the main problem here is :

People treat the trim as an all magical insta-wonder of blink-a-fast capabilities, not as a the true: move a little and see...a little more and see tool for relieving pressures.

have you ever seen when you change planes ( in real life) that the aproximate position for straight and level trimmed flight always is different in each plane, in some it takes 2 "balls" from neutral, in others 3....and more important have you ever asked your instructor to demonstrate a "runaway trim" condition?....it will bite you: Guaranteed, it takes a lot of push or pull to stop it, and that is in a Cessna, do you think you could override it when suddenly gives you 120/160 plus pounds at 400 knots in a warbird?
let me know.



LEXX_Luthor wrote:
- Trim was fast enough for my instructor to fly purely
- using trim--he was a showoff. I wonder why nobody is
- answering why some FB flyable planes have high trim
- (too much really) and some are trim crippled. I may
- be wrong, but I bet the crippled trims are to be
- found on the popular internet FB fighters.
-
-



http://mywebpage.netscape.com/kurbalaganda/Pawnee1995.jpg

A man and his Messerschmitt..its a beautiful thing
[B]Burning Avgas at alarming rates since 1990. [B]
<G>Visit http://www.aopa.org<G>
I love the Me 109 but... "Ich bin ein Würgerwhiner"!! too /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

XyZspineZyX
07-05-2003, 12:23 AM
RayBanJockey wrote:
- I'm sure real pilots could feel the trim right away
- and not have to wait.
-
- Anyway you guys probably never used trim anyway so
- what do you know. Even Oleg thinks above all this
- is a game. Well, the game plays better the old way.
-
- And as far as me getting my cheat back I can still
- cheat now so no I'm not complaining because I lost
- my cheat.
-
- You people need to quit just disagreeing with things
- I say and recognize I can make this game for the
- better.

like a little child stamping for anger: "I want my toy back" /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

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"Kimura, tu es une tªte carée comme un sale boche!"

XyZspineZyX
07-05-2003, 12:31 AM
What a cornhole!

XyZspineZyX
07-05-2003, 12:40 AM
I knew there would many many uses for this one, and whats a rbj trim whine without this pic http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

http://mysite.verizon.net/vze4jz7i/rbj.jpg


http://mysite.verizon.net/vze4jz7i/ls.gif

Good dogfighters bring ammo home, Great ones don't. (c) Leadspitter

XyZspineZyX
07-05-2003, 12:42 AM
I have all my trim controls mapped to sliders, and it's as it's should be: slow and deliberate.
I use it to fly, not perform bizarre manouvers that a real aeroplane wouldn't.

PS For flucks sake RBJ, give it up. You are wasting your time. And ours (mine).

<CENTER>


<IMG SRC="http://www.apqa16.dsl.pipex.com/sig5.jpg"


'The problem with the world is that everyone is a couple of drinks behind' - Humphrey Bogart

XyZspineZyX
07-05-2003, 12:49 AM
RBJ says:

"After FB came out, there was a big uproar in the community over how slow the trim was compared to IL2. The only reason they changed it was because of a bunch of trimwhiners, who were either too lazy to discover it's joys or who equated it with 'bat turns'. Thats just the facts."

Wrong. The reason it was changed was due to exploiters who abused the trim abilities built into IL-2. If they hadn't adopted the trim cheat, we would still have the trim as it was in IL-2.

RBJ, stop shifting the blame, accept your responsibility. Accept the results and move on and stop whining. YOU have become the "trimwhiner" and you're making an ace out of yourself. That's just the facts.

My two pfennigs,

Duncan Doenitz

XyZspineZyX
07-05-2003, 01:10 AM
F.Y.I. I can still do the thing you people call "bat-turns" (I just call it the hardest turn possible)

And I can do them at will thx to the RBJ shift (stupidsmileyface.rbj)

So go take your "just wants his toy/cheat back" argument and stick it where the sun doesn't shine.

Now in FB, only the TRUE exploiters win. *gives Loco-S shaken baby syndrome* You people just don't understand.

I am all for a level playing field, and one where trim flows freely. All Oleg did was make it so trim moves sluggish. If you think that was the solution to the problem then I feel sorry for you. There are ways around slow trim, and the way it affects the FM in FB is exactly the same as in IL2.

Thus, as you can figure out (if you contain logic) the trim needs to be changed. Time to give everyone their control back.

<img src=http://lafayettefederation.com/screenshots/repository/turo/tn-Numbaone.jpg>
"The Force is strong with this one." -What an ace said of RayBanJockey during a fight when he was still a newbie.
<a href=http://www.theinformationminister.com/press.php?ID=612109283>news update</a>

Message Edited on 07/04/0308:12PM by RayBanJockey

XyZspineZyX
07-05-2003, 01:14 AM
RBJ says:
-
- "After FB came out, there was a big uproar in the
- community over how slow the trim was compared to
- IL2.


No there wasn't. It was just you. Give it up!

<CENTER>


<IMG SRC="http://www.apqa16.dsl.pipex.com/sig5.jpg"


'The problem with the world is that everyone is a couple of drinks behind' - Humphrey Bogart

XyZspineZyX
07-05-2003, 01:16 AM
^^

pure example of why this guy got funniest community member http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

http://mysite.verizon.net/vze4jz7i/ls.gif

Good dogfighters bring ammo home, Great ones don't. (c) Leadspitter

XyZspineZyX
07-05-2003, 01:22 AM
LeadSpitter_ wrote:
- ^^
-
- pure example of why this guy got funniest community
- member /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif
-


I voted for him and have never had any regrets. Top man RBJ, may you keep us amused!
/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

<CENTER>


<IMG SRC="http://www.apqa16.dsl.pipex.com/sig5.jpg"


'The problem with the world is that everyone is a couple of drinks behind' - Humphrey Bogart

XyZspineZyX
07-05-2003, 01:30 AM
I am not in this for the money, or the fame.

I just want to be able to control my airplane. This slow trickling trim is like telling Dale Earnhart Jr. he has to use a restrictor plate.

I am just trying to make this game better.

#1 it needs to be made different if it is supposed to be realistic. what they did wasn't enough.

#2 they should allow to host to toggle between old IL2 trim (freedom) or FB/changed trim. Heck just let any user do it in his joystick screen. Let the people who want to fly with ******ed trim do so at their leisure. The rest of us who like to have fun (ever wonder why not as many people are playing this game anymore?) will be enjoying our combat flight as well.

The time is now.

<img src=http://lafayettefederation.com/screenshots/repository/turo/tn-Numbaone.jpg>
"The Force is strong with this one." -What an ace said of RayBanJockey during a fight when he was still a newbie.
<a href=http://www.theinformationminister.com/press.php?ID=612109283>news update</a>

XyZspineZyX
07-05-2003, 01:36 AM
RayBanJockey wrote:

- Now in FB, only the TRUE exploiters win. *gives
- Loco-S shaken baby syndrome* You people just don't
- understand.

Here is another thing you will never understand, 'cause your skull is so thick it smushed your brain.

What is Shaken Baby Syndrome?
Shaken baby syndrome is a severe form of head injury that occurs when a baby is shaken forcibly enough to cause the baby's brain to rebound (bounce) against his or her skull. This rebounding may cause bruising, swelling, and bleeding (intracerebral hemorrhage) of the brain, which may lead to permanent, severe brain damage or death. The condition is usually the result of non-accidental trauma or child abuse. Symptoms may include changes in behavior, irritability, lethargy, loss of consciousness, pale or bluish skin, vomiting, and convulsions. Although there usually are no outward physical signs of trauma, there may be broken, injured, or dislocated bones and injuries to the neck and spine.
Is there any treatment?
Immediate emergency treatment is necessary and usually includes life-sustaining measures such as stopping internal bleeding and relieving increased intracranial pressure.

What is the prognosis?
Generally, the prognosis for children with shaken baby syndrome is poor. Most will be left with considerable disability. Retinal damage may cause loss of vision. If the child survives, he or she may require lifelong medical care for brain damage injuries such as mental ******ation or cerebral palsy.

What research is being done?
The NINDS conducts and supports research on trauma-related disorders, including head injuries. Much of this research focuses on increasing scientific understanding of these disorders and finding ways to prevent and treat them.



Select this link to view a list of studies currently seeking patients.


http://mywebpage.netscape.com/kurbalaganda/Pawnee1995.jpg

A man and his Messerschmitt..its a beautiful thing
[B]Burning Avgas at alarming rates since 1990. [B]
<G>Visit http://www.aopa.org<G>
I love the Me 109 but... "Ich bin ein Würgerwhiner"!! too /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

XyZspineZyX
07-05-2003, 01:37 AM
RayBanJockey wrote:
- I am not in this for the money, or the fame.
-

hehehehe. lol. etc etc etc /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

Keep going m'boy, I am in heaven now.

PS What money? /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

<CENTER>


<IMG SRC="http://www.apqa16.dsl.pipex.com/sig5.jpg"


'The problem with the world is that everyone is a couple of drinks behind' - Humphrey Bogart

XyZspineZyX
07-05-2003, 01:38 AM
don't feed that thread, don't feed it/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

http://www.geocities.com/kimurakai/SIG/262_01011.jpg


"Kimura, tu es une tªte carée comme un sale boche!"

XyZspineZyX
07-05-2003, 01:39 AM
Then a powerful demon, a prowler through the dark,
nursed a hard grievance. It harrowed him
to hear the din of the loud banquet
every day in the hall, the harp being struck
and the clear songs of a skilled poet
telling the mastery of man's beginnings,
How the Almighty had made the earth
a gleaming plain girdled with waters;
in his splendour He set the sun and the moon
to be earth's lamplight, lanterns for men,
and filled the broad lap of the world
with branches and leaves; and quickened life
in every other thing that moved.

So times were pleasant for the people there
until finally one, a fiend out of hell,
began to work his evil in the world.
Grendel was the name of the grim demon
haunting the marches, marauding around the heath
and the desolate fens; he had dwelt for a time
among the banished monsters,
Cain's clan, whom the Creator had outlawed
and condemned as outcasts. For the killing of Abel
the Eternal Lord had exacted a price:
Cain got no good for committing that murder
because the Almighty made him anathema
and out of the curse of his exile there sprang
ogres and elves and evil phantoms
and the giants too who strove with God
time and again until He gave then their reward.

So, after nightfall, Grendel set out
for the lofty house, to see how the Ring-Danes
were settling into it after their drink,
and there he came upon them, a company of the best
asleep from their feasting, insensible to pain
and human sorrow. Suddenly then
the God-cursed brute was creating havoc:
greedy and grim.



<CENTER>


<IMG SRC="http://www.apqa16.dsl.pipex.com/sig5.jpg"


'The problem with the world is that everyone is a couple of drinks behind' - Humphrey Bogart

XyZspineZyX
07-05-2003, 01:46 AM
Thanks guys. Those were somewhat better explanations, and most revealing. Here is my remaining fuzzy spot::

Duncan_Doenitz wrote::
-- Wrong. The reason it was changed was due to exploiters
-- who abused the trim abilities built into IL-2. If they
-- hadn't adopted the trim cheat, we would still have the
-- trim as it was in IL-2.

So, we agree that IL~2 had the more "realistic" trim of the two UBI products, and the FB trim is made to prevent the 5% internet RBJ Cheat. This is the statement I was looking for. Thank you.

-------------

Thanks for the time Loco-S. I would enjoy reading your ideas again if you can comment on why it is so slow to achieve steady flight trim in FB. If you can, I'd love to see your ideas without them depending upon you assuming I wish to perform the 5% internet RBJ maneuver. This (rather sloppy) assumption may give me cause to question if your (commonly heard) "claim" of Instructor Pilot is indeed just that: mere internet boasting. /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

Allow us to find agreement. I won't assume you are boasting and you won't assume I wish to perform RBJ Cheat.

(a little hint:: I only fly off~line missions, at least right now, so you need not feel Threatened by online internet trim from little ~me~ -- if that is what is really making you guys so panicked about this subject.)


/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-indifferent.gif
-- If they hadn't adopted the trim cheat, we would still
-- have the trim as it was in IL-2.

XyZspineZyX
07-05-2003, 01:47 AM
Here Here I dont agree with Much Rayban Jockey sayes But the Normal Trim worked Much better Like this its like a ******ed stepchild With one Missing shoe On the Hot sand
A sad case indead /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

OLEG PUT THE TRIM BACK !!!

P.S. Trim or No trim I still get Called Cheater
Very Nice Compliment.....


RayBanJockey wrote:
- I seriously think they should speed it up.
-
- After FB came out, there was a big uproar in the
- community over how slow the trim was compared to
- IL2. The only reason they changed it was because of
- a bunch of trimwhiners, who were either too lazy to
- discover it's joys or who eqated it with "bat
- turns". Thats just the facts. People were PM'ing
- Oleg saying please do something about the trim
- because they were trying to come up with an excuse
- why they were getting their butts kicked online. I
- guarantee you if it were not for a bunch of whiners
- then trim would have never changed.
-
- So now we find ourselves with FB. The trim has been
- changed so is it better than IL2??? Of course I
- don't think so. Anyone who likes to use trim in IL2
- knows unnatural it has become now. And what of
- realism? So I can just tie a knot in my cali, bump
- my force, and cover up my tracks in the config and
- fly like a bat out of hell! Thats right only the
- exploiters now have the advantage. Before, anyone
- with a throttle wheel could play with the big boys.
-
- The experiment has failed. The root of the problem
- has not been adressed. Time to revert the trim back
- to the way it was in IL2. A change is a must. They
- need to rethink the way trim hould be changed. A
- compromise might be trim that moves slower the more
- you move it. That way, pilots can have their fine
- trim control back. The time is now to begin a
- better trim campaign. Even the whiners of old have
- said they would like the trim from IL2 back.
-


<Center><div style="width:700;colorhttp://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_razz.gifurple;font-size:14pt;filter:shadow Blur[color=black,strength=11)"><Center>
I am He who lives, and was dead, and behold
I am alive forevermore.
I am the Alpha and the Omega
the Begining and the End.</div> <center>

<center><FONT COLOR="white">ӚFJ M œ R D ˜ ӡ[/i]</FONT>

XyZspineZyX
07-05-2003, 01:49 AM
<center>http://homepage.ntlworld.com/steve.gorman/troll.jpg </center>

<center><table bgcolor="black" width="400px"><tr><td>http://homepage.ntlworld.com/steve.gorman/banner2.jpg



<center> Click here for the greeting! (http://homepage.ntlworld.com/steve.gorman/in-out.wav)</center>

<center>http://homepage.ntlworld.com/steve.gorman/moloko.jpg

<font size="+1">Horrorshow!</font></center>

</td></tr></table></center>

XyZspineZyX
07-05-2003, 01:54 AM
Commie, it's way past closing time, get some kip. I think I am about to.

Cheers!

<CENTER>


<IMG SRC="http://www.apqa16.dsl.pipex.com/sig5.jpg"


'The problem with the world is that everyone is a couple of drinks behind' - Humphrey Bogart

XyZspineZyX
07-05-2003, 01:59 AM
Ray,

I'm glad your finally calling it a cheat. I've been doing that all along. We finally agree on something.

Da Buzz
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
<center> Butcher Bird
<center>
http://www.elknet.pl/acestory/foto/hannig3.jpg

XyZspineZyX
07-05-2003, 02:10 AM
Locust_161st laments::
-- P.S. Trim or No trim I still get Called Cheater Very Nice Compliment

Agreed! The total sloppiness of the 5% internet dogfighter's argument is astonishing, and I am not learning anything from their posts. Whether they are correct or not I don't know. But if they are wrong, they are crippling the trim for the 95% offline players.

This explains everything about IL~2 trim vs FB trim....

Duncan_Doenitz wrote::
-- Wrong. The reason it was changed was due to exploiters
-- who abused the trim abilities built into IL-2. If they
-- hadn't adopted the trim cheat, we would still have the
-- trim as it was in IL-2.

XyZspineZyX
07-05-2003, 02:17 AM
Dunkelgrun wrote:
- Keep going m'boy, I am in heaven now.
-
- PS What money?

I'm thinking of selling my name and password on E-Bay.



Locust_161st wrote:
- OLEG PUT THE TRIM BACK !!!
-
- P.S. Trim or No trim I still get Called Cheater
- Very Nice Compliment.....

You are not alone.


LEXX_Luthor wrote:
- So, we agree that IL~2 had the more "realistic" trim
- of the two UBI products, and the FB trim is made to
- prevent the 5% internet RBJ Cheat. This is the
- statement I was looking for. Thank you.

Exactly. They made this change to the game to appease the part of the 5% of those who were whiners, and what they would up was screweing it up for the whole 100%. Might as well revert the trim back to the way it was in IL2 I say.



<img src=http://lafayettefederation.com/screenshots/repository/turo/tn-Numbaone.jpg>
"The Force is strong with this one." -What an ace said of RayBanJockey during a fight when he was still a newbie.
<a href=http://www.theinformationminister.com/press.php?ID=612109283>news update</a>

XyZspineZyX
07-05-2003, 02:17 AM
LOCO S ... that shaken baby syndrome post is quite possibly the funniest post ive ever read here

BTW .... RBJ keeps misspelling the word JOKE ... he types it out as A.C.E

XyZspineZyX
07-05-2003, 02:24 AM
<center>
http://home.comcast.net/~argylestransom/Pics/AHoleio.jpg

Everywhere I look I see RBJ - Here's my dog Max...

</center>

<center>
http://home.comcast.net/~argylestransom/Pics/A10Bun.jpg

Waiting for Lomac
</center>

XyZspineZyX
07-05-2003, 02:46 AM
Trim tab moves with trim wheel in the RW. It's the plane that responds slowly. The trim wheel in my trainer has marks to help a pilot to know about where to set it for takeoff, landing, etc . . . and we have to "play" with it a bit for level flight. So . . . with trim as it is in FB, the only soluttion to trim (and it is a good one) is to map to a slider, and mark the settings. Then we get a good representation of real trim. If you are trying to trim with KB, you are fighting a losing battle. You trim for landing, think you have it right, and as you are coming in on final approach, your d*%#mned nose keeps coming up, even though you have stopped trimming. (low airspeed + unexpected positive pitch attitude = stall) If you were to look at a real AC's trim tab from behind as you are trimming, you would see that it stops moving when you you stop trimming. In FB the "trim tab" (which is actually represented by the entire elevator in the game . . . yes, it's a game), continues to move after you have stopped trimming. THERE is the problem.

http://www.wpafb.af.mil/museum/research/p39s.jpg


Death is just nature's way of telling you to watch your airspeed.

http://www.theinformationminister.com/press.php?ID=612345111

XyZspineZyX
07-05-2003, 03:16 AM
Thanks tsisqua. That is very illuminating. And a real life trim wheel is indeed a slider--although in very slow motion. As Locus is indeed correct about trimming being able to destroy aircraft, then this needs to be modelled somehow (Locus?). It would certainly prevent the internet Cheats that appear to be panicking the 5% dogfighters.

What is "trimming with KB?" You mean trim a little, look a lot, trim some more?

-- --

My very first RBJ quote, ever!

-- Exactly. They made this change to the game to appease
-- the part of the 5% of those who were whiners, and what
-- they would up was screweing it up for the whole 100%.
-- Might as well revert the trim back to the way it was in
-- IL2 I say.

Yes, I heard it was the 5% online. I can fully understand why they feel sheer Panic from the possibility of cheating by humanoid players on internet--if that is the case. What ticked me off tonight was this:: Always having heard the standard 5% argument about real life trim being used for *nothing* but easing level flight, and then one of the 5% dogfighters posts a complete contradiction where you use real life trim for attaining any kind of steady flight including, but not limited to, level flight. We shall hear the "trim only for level flight" argument again.

Be sure.

Honestly, I must do more trim testing. All I know is some aircraft, seemingly the more popular *online* fighters, have crippled trim while ancient Polish P11c has lightning fast trim. Granted, Hurricane seems to have reasonably fast trim.

This does not sound like Oleg made a global trim change but possibly a localized trim fudge, plane by plane, for the aircraft most used in online dogfights. And the whole thing is starting to give me pause about condemming Miocrosoft's CSF flight model look-up tables. I know this is Heresy, but lookup tables in Oleg's tight gripped fist I would completely trust. I do, after all, have my fanboy liscence.

I heard Oleg's flight physics was really only designed for one or two flyable aircraft such as the IL~2 (much like Flanker and LOCK~ON only model very few flyables). But as the number of FB aircraft approach 100, the more flight model lumps appear in the physics approximation rug which, again, can only be optimized to model one or two aircraft.

Given we will be soon Enjoying and Whining about high speed, high altitude late 1940s jets at the same time as early 1930s biplanes, a high quality Oleg look-up table may be the only future for FB flight models. Without info, I have no other way to judge this. Also, The Patch may show this is not the case. I dunno.

Well RBJ, all the posted pics on this thread have me totally convinced you are really, really, just plain totally bad!




Message Edited on 07/05/0302:17AM by LEXX_Luthor

XyZspineZyX
07-05-2003, 03:17 AM
there is no way of knowing for sure that only 5% play online ...
oleg said it was only that much & now its taken as gospel

XyZspineZyX
07-05-2003, 03:27 AM
RayBanJockey wrote:

And as far as me getting my cheat back I can still
- cheat now so no I'm not complaining because I lost
- my cheat.


LoL say no more FOOL

No1RAAF_Pourshot

XO No1RAAF

http://www.froggy.com.au/edinkulelija/no1raaf/image/crest.gif


some are the hunters the rest are the hunted

XyZspineZyX
07-05-2003, 03:30 AM
I was just talking in "words you all can understand"

You can't cheat in IL2 or FB.

<img src=http://lafayettefederation.com/screenshots/repository/turo/tn-Numbaone.jpg>
"The Force is strong with this one." -What an ace said of RayBanJockey during a fight when he was still a newbie.
<a href=http://www.theinformationminister.com/press.php?ID=612109283>news update</a>

XyZspineZyX
07-05-2003, 03:41 AM
RayBanJockey wrote:
- F.Y.I. I can still do the thing you people call
- "bat-turns" (I just call it the hardest turn
- possible)
-
- And I can do them at will thx to the RBJ shift
- (stupidsmileyface.rbj)
-
- So go take your "just wants his toy/cheat back"
- argument and stick it where the sun doesn't shine.
-
- Now in FB, only the TRUE exploiters win. *gives
- Loco-S shaken baby syndrome* You people just don't
- understand.
-
- I am all for a level playing field, and one where
- trim flows freely. All Oleg did was make it so trim
- moves sluggish. If you think that was the solution
- to the problem then I feel sorry for you. There are
- ways around slow trim, and the way it affects the FM
- in FB is exactly the same as in IL2.
-
- Thus, as you can figure out (if you contain logic)
- the trim needs to be changed. Time to give everyone
- their control back.
-


So what you are saying is you want everyone to be able to use your CHEAT you make me SICK

No1RAAF_Pourshot

XO No1RAAF

http://www.froggy.com.au/edinkulelija/no1raaf/image/crest.gif


some are the hunters the rest are the hunted

XyZspineZyX
07-05-2003, 03:44 AM
MODS can we get a lock on this 1 man mission to change perfect trim now?

http://mysite.verizon.net/vze4jz7i/ls.gif

Good dogfighters bring ammo home, Great ones don't. (c) Leadspitter

XyZspineZyX
07-05-2003, 04:04 AM
ROTFLMAO

RayBanJockey wrote:
- After FB came out, there was a big uproar in the
- community over how slow the trim was compared to
- IL2.

You seriously overrate yourself if you think you is a "Big uproar"


Leave it how it is, right now it does exactly what trim was meant to do, trim and aircraft out. Not to increase elevator deflection beyond what it really could go.

http://www.redspar.com/redrogue/CraggerUbisig.jpg

About after 30 minutes I puked all over my airplane. I said to myself "Man, you made a big mistake." -Charles 'Chuck' Yeager, regards his first flight

XyZspineZyX
07-05-2003, 04:19 AM
Cragger wrote:
- ROTFLMAO

- Leave it how it is, right now it does exactly what
- trim was meant to do, trim and aircraft out. Not to
- increase elevator deflection beyond what it really
- could go.

Your ignorance of how the sim works makes me sick. People can still trim to turn in turns that were exactly as hard as in IL2. All they did was make it so the trim moves slow. Heck I can just recalibrate my stick and some settings and fly around level and hands free, yet a mere 3 seconds from max trim. Meanwhile, those who use the centered settings are 13 seconds away and will get left in my dust. You call this the way it was meant to be? I call it cheaters paradise. Time to let just any old Joe with a wheel on his stick to be able to fly on a level playing field. Like I said there is a reason alot less people are playing this game and slow trim is one of those. It reduces playability. It's just bad for the game and should be changed for real or changed back to the way it was in IL2 (fun)

<img src=http://lafayettefederation.com/screenshots/repository/turo/tn-Numbaone.jpg>
"The Force is strong with this one." -What an ace said of RayBanJockey during a fight when he was still a newbie.
<a href=http://www.theinformationminister.com/press.php?ID=612109283>news update</a>

XyZspineZyX
07-05-2003, 04:27 AM
rbj

that only works with newbies.

no decent lw pilot is going to bleed his with trim since E is one of the few assests an lw plane has.

rogo

<img src =http://www.world-data-systems.com/aerofiles/albums/userpics/water-and-clouds-copy.jpg>


"Those who long for exaltation look upwards. But I look downwards for I am the exalted." This was a quote from Nietzsche as he flew in his FW190 @ 20,000ft looking downwards.

/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

XyZspineZyX
07-05-2003, 04:35 AM
Rogodin wrote:
- rbj
-
- that only works with newbies.
-
- no decent lw pilot is going to bleed his with trim
- since E is one of the few assests an lw plane has.
-
- rogo

Don't even get me started on the benefits of trim. Whether you are a turn-n-burner, or a boom-and-zoomer, you will only ever be half the pilot you could be unless you use copious ammouns of elevator trim. For turning and burning, you can turn much better at high speeds to gain early position. And for booming and zooming, you can turn much better at high speeds in order to make your shot window "double wide". (example, diving on an opponent, you want to have max trim ready to give him a stinger with twice as many bullets hitting than someone who isn't using trim would get) I can also pull some crazy head to head shots that leave other pilots scratching their heads.

<img src=http://lafayettefederation.com/screenshots/repository/turo/tn-Numbaone.jpg>
"The Force is strong with this one." -What an ace said of RayBanJockey during a fight when he was still a newbie.
<a href=http://www.theinformationminister.com/press.php?ID=612109283>news update</a>

XyZspineZyX
07-05-2003, 04:51 AM
Wow RBJ, you are nuts! Fun, but nuts. All of you. If you persons/personettes don't mind, think I'll stay offline for a little while longer.

Cragger::
--- Leave it how it is, right now it does exactly what trim
--- was meant to do, trim and aircraft out. Not to increase
--- elevator deflection beyond what it really could go.

With due apologies Cragger, we must address, eventually, Duncan_Doenitz's astonishing post on the origins of IL~2's trim change.

Duncan_Doenitz wrote::
-- Wrong. The reason it was changed was due to exploiters
-- who abused the trim abilities built into IL-2. If they
-- hadn't adopted the trim cheat, we would still have the
-- trim as it was in IL-2.

I presume IL~2 was the more realistic trim, but could be exploited for cheat which is of consequence to other players only during online play. Perhaps some don't cheat online or offline. I can see how trim cheat could be an issue for internet dogfighting against real humanoid opponents.

Will that conciliation help you to address Duncan's post? Probably not. Surprise me. Thank you.

Perhaps The Patch when--and if--releaced, will hopefully model trim so the 100% online/offine will be collectively satisfied. And if the trim is modeled correctly, and nobody here knows Oleg's algorithms, then RBJ's trim turns perhaps won't be possible without wrecking the aircraft, yet we will be able to easily trim for steady flight; steady climbing, steady diving, or even steady level flight.

XyZspineZyX
07-05-2003, 04:58 AM
Ray, if you are having difficulties with your software, you are free to call Ubi Softs technical support number and ask for assistance. This is the proper way to get things fixed. Posting on this forum accomplishes nothing.

<font face="Courier New">
&nbspBaldieJr
_____ | _____
_\__(o)__/_
./ \.
Whiners don't play vulchers
(er, winners)
</font>

XyZspineZyX
07-05-2003, 05:12 AM
Anybody ever eat a Pureheart Watermelon?

/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

<center>
http://home.comcast.net/~argylestransom/Pics/A10Bun.jpg

Waiting for Lomac
</center>

XyZspineZyX
07-05-2003, 05:13 AM
Thats weird. I am eating watermelon right now.

XyZspineZyX
07-05-2003, 05:14 AM
Yeah, but is one of those little sweet Purehearts?

/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-indifferent.gif

<center>
http://home.comcast.net/~argylestransom/Pics/A10Bun.jpg

Waiting for Lomac
</center>

XyZspineZyX
07-05-2003, 05:18 AM
I dunno. Seedless. 2.99$ with MTV card at FoodLion it was.

XyZspineZyX
07-05-2003, 05:20 AM
Purehearts are about 8" in diameter with a very thin rind. They're not cheap - but very sweet...

Honeydews are my favorite, but they don't get good till late in the season.

/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif


<center>
http://home.comcast.net/~argylestransom/Pics/A10Bun.jpg

Waiting for Lomac
</center>



Message Edited on 07/04/0309:25PM by Bun-Bun1953

XyZspineZyX
07-05-2003, 07:21 AM
LEXX_Luthor, If you are planning to travel to Denver Colorado I can treat you to a Free introductory flight, My treat, You dont have to pay a Cent to fly for an hour, we will go on the basics of Take off, climb, level flight and approach and landing, plus a debrieffing on your performance, Happy landings! /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

LEXX_Luthor wrote:
-
-
- Thanks for the time Loco-S. I would enjoy reading
- your ideas again if you can comment on why it is so
- slow to achieve steady flight trim in FB. If you
- can, I'd love to see your ideas without them
- depending upon you assuming I wish to perform the 5%
- internet RBJ maneuver. This (rather sloppy)
- assumption may give me cause to question if your
- (commonly heard) "claim" of Instructor Pilot is
- indeed just that: mere internet boasting.-
- Allow us to find agreement. I won't assume you are
- boasting and you won't assume I wish to perform RBJ
- Cheat.
http://mywebpage.netscape.com/kurbalaganda/Metroliner+1.jpg


http://mywebpage.netscape.com/kurbalaganda/Pawnee1995.jpg

A man and his Messerschmitt..its a beautiful thing
[B]Burning Avgas at alarming rates since 1990. [B]
<G>Visit http://www.aopa.org<G>
I love the Me 109 but... "Ich bin ein Würgerwhiner"!! too /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

XyZspineZyX
07-05-2003, 07:53 AM
Ray, I have absolutely no trouble trimming my aircraft in FB. I have trim mapped to my mouse wheel, which is a very good approximation of the trim wheel in a real aircraft.

I can trim quite easily for any steady state condition. Climb, cruise, descent, etc...this is how trim is used in the real world. What you fail to understand is that your use of trim is gaming the game, totally arcade. Which is fine, if you are playing on a PS2. That is not what I am looking for in my IL2/FB experience.

Perhaps you should be playing this instead:

http://www.pong-story.com/pics/pc/pong12.gif
</img.>

<center><FONT color="red">[b]BlitzPig_EL</FONT>[B]<CENTER> http://old.jccc.net/~droberts/p40/images/p40home.gif
</img>.
"All men dream, but not equally. Those who dream by night in the dusty recesses of their minds, wake in the day that it was vanity:
but the dreamers of the day are dangerous men, for they may act on their dreams with open eyes, to make them possible. "
--T.E. Lawrence

XyZspineZyX
07-05-2003, 09:15 AM
Thanks Loco, but my short flying days are over. I had taken a few lessons, second solo was kinda~semi cross country triangle within 25 mile limit but I went back to school instead right after that. Trim was impressive on 152, not that I ever compared it to anything else though.

I crave for somebody to explain what was wrong with the old IL~2 trim, besides the now famous RBJ maneuver. Is there anything else wrong with the original IL~2 trim? If so, I have not heard anything about it. Okay, I am not quite yet ready to believe real life airplane pilots can't come up with better than RBJ slogans. This is embarassing. So, impress me. Duncan let this one slip out of the bag.

Duncan_Doenitz wrote::
-- Wrong. The reason it was changed was due to exploiters
-- who abused the trim abilities built into IL-2. If they
-- hadn't adopted the trim cheat, we would still have the
-- trim as it was in IL-2.

If Cragger could put his reasoning style on Shock Cooling to use on Duncan's post, then I could be impressed.

XyZspineZyX
07-05-2003, 10:28 AM
LEXX_Luthor wrote:
- I crave for somebody to explain what was wrong with
- the old IL~2 trim, besides the now famous RBJ
- maneuver.


Hey, I think theres something flawed in the FM code. Trim somehow allows control surfaces to deflect more than they should.

Pay no mind to me. I just make stuff up. Slowed trim sure is neat.

<font face="Courier New">
&nbspBaldieJr
_____ | _____
_\__(o)__/_
./ \.
Whiners don't play vulchers
(er, winners)
</font>

XyZspineZyX
07-05-2003, 12:56 PM
Duncan is right in that slowing it down isn't totally realistic and it was done purely because people where exploiting a simplicy defect of IL2s mechanics.

The dilema comes from what is trim IRL and how trim is handled inside the game engine. In IL2 it acts a secondary elevator control that can be set to counteract the programed lift to IAS ratio on each FM.

In IL2 the exploit was that it allowed more elevator input than was possible IRL. Trim in reality is a little tab inset on a flight control or a mechanism that changes the center stick position of the flight control surface. However, in IL2 you could go to the programed full positive stop of a elevator flight control surface and then add more with trim. While this would be possible with the inset trim tab, its influence would be so marginal it wouldn't have any real effect in such a hard turn already.

Also IL2s and FBs trim allow more control effectiveness on the elevator that was getting "heavy" from airspeed. So in a high speed dive in a 109 with neutral trim that you couldn't get much positive pitch out of you could simple pile on the trim and it would add quick positive pitch. This was because of how trim is handled, and isn't dampened by speed.

Personally I prefer the trim in how its slowed down in FB. It feels more natural because trim is purely used IRL to make gradual small adjustments to allievate stick pressure and trim to speed. In which case you aren't maddly moving the trim wheel but slowly finding the sweet spot with gradual movements. IRL you get in to much hurry with trim and you'll set yourself up into a occilation that takes even longer to settle out than if you did it correctly in the first place.

I hope this is as clear to you as it is to me because its 7 am in the morning here and I'm not quite fully alert. And I haven't had my coffee yet.



LEXX_Luthor wrote:
- Thanks Loco, but my short flying days are over. I
- had taken a few lessons, second solo was kinda~semi
- cross country triangle within 25 mile limit but I
- went back to school instead right after that. Trim
- was impressive on 152, not that I ever compared it
- to anything else though.
-
- I crave for somebody to explain what was wrong with
- the old IL~2 trim, besides the now famous RBJ
- maneuver. Is there anything else wrong with the
- original IL~2 trim? If so, I have not heard anything
- about it. Okay, I am not quite yet ready to believe
- real life airplane pilots can't come up with better
- than RBJ slogans. This is embarassing. So, impress
- me. Duncan let this one slip out of the bag.
-
- Duncan_Doenitz wrote::
--- Wrong. The reason it was changed was due to exploiters
--- who abused the trim abilities built into IL-2. If they
--- hadn't adopted the trim cheat, we would still have the
--- trim as it was in IL-2.
-
- If Cragger could put his reasoning style on Shock
- Cooling to use on Duncan's post, then I could be
- impressed.
-
-
-
-



http://www.redspar.com/redrogue/CraggerUbisig.jpg

About after 30 minutes I puked all over my airplane. I said to myself "Man, you made a big mistake." -Charles 'Chuck' Yeager, regards his first flight

XyZspineZyX
07-05-2003, 02:18 PM
So let me get this straight. You bunch of goofballs would rather have trim where the hardcore exploiters are the winners (FB) than trim where anybody with a spare wheel can compete (IL2)?

That seems to be the implication. *Sigh* Some people in this community just don't get. I could tell them 2+2=4 and they wouldn't believe it just because I said so.

<img src=http://lafayettefederation.com/screenshots/repository/turo/tn-Numbaone.jpg>
"The Force is strong with this one." -What an ace said of RayBanJockey during a fight when he was still a newbie.
<a href=http://www.theinformationminister.com/press.php?ID=612109283>news update</a>

XyZspineZyX
07-05-2003, 02:41 PM
RBJ does have a point where you can go thru your config file & your joystick clibrations to get it to work a lot better than most people get it too

oleg should totally eliminate this ability as well

hip , hip , hooray to oleg for making a hard to cheat in game that is this complex...

i actually have to hand it too RBJ for having the brains to actually figure out something to get a gain over everyone else .... not every FB player would know where to start

i guess no-one is as dedicated to always having an unfair advantage as RBJ

he still is spelling JOKE with the letters A.C.E tho ......

XyZspineZyX
07-05-2003, 02:59 PM
WUAF_Badsight wrote:

- hip , hip , hooray to oleg for making a hard to
- cheat in game that is this complex...


Actually he made it possible to cheat (with the FB change)

Before, in IL2, any old Joe could use his trim on a slider and fly with precision and enjoy the game. There were no cheats. Just whiners who were too lazy to discover it's joys. Now, only the true exploiters are in the know. Thats why trim in FB is a failure compared to trim in IL2.

<img src=http://lafayettefederation.com/screenshots/repository/turo/tn-Numbaone.jpg>
"The Force is strong with this one." -What an ace said of RayBanJockey during a fight when he was still a newbie.
<a href=http://www.theinformationminister.com/press.php?ID=612109283>news update</a>

XyZspineZyX
07-05-2003, 03:00 PM
<center>
http://home.comcast.net/~argylestransom/Pics/MaxBeach.jpg

Here's a picture of Max at the beach
I like Max - she's a good dog
</center>




<center>
http://home.comcast.net/~argylestransom/Pics/A10Bun.jpg

Waiting for Lomac
</center>

XyZspineZyX
07-05-2003, 04:10 PM
Lexx, the trim in IL2 had two distinct problems...

1. It operated way too fast.

2. It operated OUTSIDE the energy bleed envelope. This is really why RBJ wants it back. If full trim was quickly applied you could turn with ZERO energy bleed, in any aircraft. Also there were issues with avoiding blackout as well.

The Trim in IL2 was CLEARLY INCORRECT. Those calling for it's re implementation are gamers, n00bs, or quite possibly wankers.

Take your pick....

<center><FONT color="red">[b]BlitzPig_EL</FONT>[B]<CENTER> http://old.jccc.net/~droberts/p40/images/p40home.gif
</img>.
"All men dream, but not equally. Those who dream by night in the dusty recesses of their minds, wake in the day that it was vanity:
but the dreamers of the day are dangerous men, for they may act on their dreams with open eyes, to make them possible. "
--T.E. Lawrence

XyZspineZyX
07-05-2003, 04:55 PM
Loco-S, I live in Denver, CO so I'll take the free intro flight. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif I've got a "fan flight" in a T-154(?) Mentor down at Centennial airport coming up in a week or two, woulda been a dogfight flight but I'm too dirt poor to upgrade and the original flight was a present.

< /offtopic >

XyZspineZyX
07-05-2003, 05:01 PM
Bun-Bun1953 wrote:
- Here's a picture of Max at the beach I like Max
- she's a good dog

DOH! Ok... what is the best way to get milk out of a keyboard and off a pc screen? <G>


TAGERT
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
If WAR was not the ANSWER.. Than what the H was your QUESTION?

XyZspineZyX
07-05-2003, 05:06 PM
ElAurens wrote:
-
- 1. It operated way too fast.
-
- 2. It operated OUTSIDE the energy bleed envelope.
- This is really why RBJ wants it back. If full trim
- was quickly applied you could turn with ZERO energy
- bleed, in any aircraft. Also there were issues with
- avoiding blackout as well.
-
- The Trim in IL2 was CLEARLY INCORRECT. Those
- calling for it's re implementation are gamers,
- n00bs, or quite possibly wankers.
-
- Take your pick....


Gamers: Oleg says IL2/FB is a game above anything else. It's the people who play games who buy this and provide money for Oleg to make it worthwhile. And ElAurens, you are one of those who never understood trim, but instead just have a predjudice view. You are obviously no ace. There was no such thing as zero energy bleed. That is just a myth. If you turn hard you loose energy too. You just call it zero energy bleed because you saw some guy turn hard and you couldn't keep up. Issues with avoiding blackout? And now trim has something to do with avoiding blackout? Are you sure you aren't a reincarnated witch hunter from 1845? Please make up some more bad things about trim that aren't true, or have nothing to do with trim whatsoever.

And who cares if the trim moves freely? It feels good and plays well. Now, all they did was slow it down. There is still the EXACT same energy loss (which has always been normal), the EXACT same blackout with regards to trim (which is normal) and oh ya, you'll still see people using trim to out-turn newbs who haven't figured it out yet.

In fact, I can reach maximum trim now faster than before! Because I can fly at near max trim, being able to turn just as hard as before in IL2 and being able to level out by just centering the stick.

Stick that in your pipe and smoke it.

And you think everything is hunky dory now, right? Ha!

It's time that you threw your prejudice out the window and accept the facts from a true online ace who also spends as much time studying the planes offline in solo flight. Thats right. I learn all the speeds of all the planes at every altitude with all variables. There is much more than just being able to control your plane the best, there is the knowledge of the true performance of the planes to be exploited.

Slow trim just makes it a pain to do things like level out fast at slight angles. Thats it! Those who like to simulate flying 500 miles to grandma's house don't have a problem with it but those who are hardcore dogfighters do!

<img src=http://lafayettefederation.com/screenshots/repository/turo/tn-Numbaone.jpg>
"The Force is strong with this one." -What an ace said of RayBanJockey during a fight when he was still a newbie.
<a href=http://www.theinformationminister.com/press.php?ID=612109283>news update</a>

XyZspineZyX
07-05-2003, 05:08 PM
So your point rbj is that when you map trim to a slider and trim for level flight and have it mapped for full defelction within seconds either way that when you go for a immelmen you hit your mapped slider and DONT loose any more E as opposed to NOT using trim on a slider to do the maneuver?

rogo

<img src =http://www.world-data-systems.com/aerofiles/albums/userpics/normal_sig.jpg>


"Those who long for exaltation look upwards. But I look downwards for I am the exalted." This was a quote from Nietzsche as he flew in his FW190 @ 20,000ft looking downwards.

/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

XyZspineZyX
07-05-2003, 05:10 PM
<center>
http://home.comcast.net/~argylestransom/Pics/MaxSnow.jpg

Max playing in the snow...
She manages to get her ugly mug in every shot /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif
</center>

<center>
http://home.comcast.net/~argylestransom/Pics/A10Bun.jpg

Waiting for Lomac
</center>

XyZspineZyX
07-05-2003, 05:11 PM
LEXX_Luthor wrote:
- Locust_161st laments::
--- P.S. Trim or No trim I still get Called Cheater Very Nice Compliment
-
- This explains everything about IL~2 trim vs FB
- trim....
-
- Duncan_Doenitz wrote::
--- Wrong. The reason it was changed was due to exploiters
--- who abused the trim abilities built into IL-2. If they
--- hadn't adopted the trim cheat, we would still have the
--- trim as it was in IL-2.

The fact of the matter is that I only use Trim, in a normal manner, I have it maped too one button & simply Press that button, so many times on my stick to trim the ac for long flights or climbing degree, The il2 trim was much better because it took effect right away....

This slow motion trim is a Joke.... What does it mater if they took the trim away....anyway cuz now the AC can do Imposible manuvers Like tossing the stick wildley about to avoid gunfire while they maintain there airspeed If they did this in real Life there Eyes would come out of there head & theyd puke all over themselves!~!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Trim Turners were never realy all that much of a nueceance compared too the new BAT style FM off FB Please OLEG MAke the AC stall more again or something & give us back normal trim!!!

I can Kill trim wheelers I cant Kill the Bats

<Center><div style="width:700;colorhttp://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_razz.gifurple;font-size:14pt;filter:shadow Blur[color=black,strength=11)"><Center>
I am He who lives, and was dead, and behold
I am alive forevermore.
I am the Alpha and the Omega
the Begining and the End.</div> <center>

<center><FONT COLOR="white">ӚFJ M œ R D ˜ ӡ[/i]</FONT>

XyZspineZyX
07-05-2003, 05:19 PM
pourshot wrote:
- So what you are saying is you want everyone to be
- able to use your CHEAT you make me SICK
-
- No1RAAF_Pourshot
-
- XO No1RAAF


Having Normal trim IS NOT CHEATING

IL2 trim was represenitive of true AC trim

They hell with FB Im reinstalling Il2 today & will be flying there untill this BAT FM & the Trim is Fixed
Good by

<Center><div style="width:700;colorhttp://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_razz.gifurple;font-size:14pt;filter:shadow Blur[color=black,strength=11)"><Center>
I am He who lives, and was dead, and behold
I am alive forevermore.
I am the Alpha and the Omega
the Begining and the End.</div> <center>

<center><FONT COLOR="white">ӚFJ M œ R D ˜ ӡ[/i]</FONT>

XyZspineZyX
07-05-2003, 05:20 PM
Rogodin wrote:
- So your point rbj is that when you map trim to a
- slider and trim for level flight and have it mapped
- for full defelction within seconds either way that
- when you go for a immelmen you hit your mapped
- slider and DONT loose any more E as opposed to NOT
- using trim on a slider to do the maneuver?


No, man. Everyone always looses as much E as they turn. What trim does in IL2 and FB is allow one to overcome the restrictions of the elevator movement due to compression of the control surface caused by high speed air forces.

So basicaly you can turn harder at higher speeds than someone who isn't using it.

Nothing has changed whatsoever from IL2 to FB with regards to trim's effect on flight performance. All they did was slow the speed at which trim could move. But you just shift a few variables (RBJ Shift) and you can be flying level and hands free with near full trim already applied and then just yank the stick back (or pull it back slowly, whatever you want) and be able to out-turn newbs same as in IL2.

All the slow trim in FB did was handicap those who fly with stock settings and make it a pain for people to make quick, concisive fine movements to fine tune their maneuvers. It sucks! Whether you are a realism buff or a gamer you loose when it comes to trim in FB.

<img src=http://lafayettefederation.com/screenshots/repository/turo/tn-Numbaone.jpg>
"The Force is strong with this one." -What an ace said of RayBanJockey during a fight when he was still a newbie.
<a href=http://www.theinformationminister.com/press.php?ID=612109283>news update</a>

XyZspineZyX
07-05-2003, 05:26 PM
Ray,

There is a big difference between IL2 and FB. In IL2 you could call it a exploit, because all you had to do was put your trim on a slider. (I still call it a cheat if you use it in an unrealistic way).
However, the extra lengths you have to go to inFB to doyour bat turns. Is no longer an exploit. It's a flat out cheat. I'm surprised you don't see the difference, or i'm suprised you expect us to believe that you don't see the differnce.

Da Buzz
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
<center> Butcher Bird
<center>
http://www.histoiredumonde.net/images/20_eme_siecle/avions/fw190/intro.jpg

XyZspineZyX
07-05-2003, 05:39 PM
yeah i agree with Buzz, you know your cheating RBJ. I would rather have a fair fight and lose everytime, then go around bat turning people and racking of hundreds of points.


BTW Buzz good story on the Bravest thing you have ever done thread. i was impressed. i just hope i will be able to react sufficiently when and if that time comes.

flying online as 25th_Inmate



http://63.76.89.105/IL2/images/IL2AirRacing.gif

XyZspineZyX
07-05-2003, 05:41 PM
Ryan,

Thanks, but I hope you never have to find out../i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

Da Buzz
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
<center> Butcher Bird
<center>
http://www.histoiredumonde.net/images/20_eme_siecle/avions/fw190/intro.jpg

XyZspineZyX
07-05-2003, 07:09 PM
Thanks fellas, especially Cragger. That makes more sense. I think we could use more feedback when using trim, although ElAurens' mouse wheel could be an idea. If more feedback means making trim faster again, we just go around in circles. Oleg may have a problem here. But honestly, Oleg's trim is not enough to make me complain about FB. After all, I am required to keep my fanboy image intact, for the Fw thread/threads.

Also, does Oleg use the same method of simulating FB rudder and aileron trim also?

Thanks.

This came from the article linked in the CEM thread...comments appreciated.

- On some aircraft you will have to hit the trim button
- more times than others. This is realistic as trim wheels,
- aircraft specifics or ratio of movement per revolution
- are not the same.

XyZspineZyX
07-05-2003, 07:28 PM
Using the mousewheel for trim is one of the stupidest ideas ever.

Whee! I'm spinning my mouse. Round and round it goes, where the trim stops nobody knows.

<img src=http://lafayettefederation.com/screenshots/repository/turo/tn-Numbaone.jpg>
"The Force is strong with this one." -What an ace said of RayBanJockey during a fight when he was still a newbie.
<a href=http://www.theinformationminister.com/press.php?ID=612109283>news update</a>

XyZspineZyX
07-05-2003, 11:22 PM
RayBanJockey wrote:


Blah blah blah.......



Seems I touched a nerve.

/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

<center><FONT color="red">[b]BlitzPig_EL</FONT>[B]<CENTER> http://old.jccc.net/~droberts/p40/images/p40home.gif
</img>.
"All men dream, but not equally. Those who dream by night in the dusty recesses of their minds, wake in the day that it was vanity:
but the dreamers of the day are dangerous men, for they may act on their dreams with open eyes, to make them possible. "
--T.E. Lawrence

XyZspineZyX
07-05-2003, 11:34 PM
RayBanJockey wrote:
-
- Whee! I'm spinning my mouse. Round and round it
- goes, where the trim stops nobody knows.


Again you miss the point. I don't use trim to cheat, or as an exploit of the code. I use it to trim the aircraft, which is it's real purpose. I don't have to know where the stops are, as a few clicks up or down will trim any aircraft in the game. And if I want to go to neutral trim I use the keyboard command. Simple yet effective.

You are not going to win this one RBJ.

This horse died a long time ago. But feel free to beat it if it makes you feel better.

<center><FONT color="red">[b]BlitzPig_EL</FONT>[B]<CENTER> http://old.jccc.net/~droberts/p40/images/p40home.gif
</img>.
"All men dream, but not equally. Those who dream by night in the dusty recesses of their minds, wake in the day that it was vanity:
but the dreamers of the day are dangerous men, for they may act on their dreams with open eyes, to make them possible. "
--T.E. Lawrence

XyZspineZyX
07-05-2003, 11:41 PM
I use trim to trim my aircraft too. Except I do it in combat online, not long slow flights to grandma's house offline.

I have always had it on the throttle lever of my MSFFB2 and that's where it will always be, because that's the best spot. You can see and feel where the lever is. Not some dumb wheel that goes click click click.

To use trim on a slider, is to love trim on a slider. Never have it any other way!

And I have always recommended that people trim their plane for combat. Long before the paranoids started calling it a cheat. It's just using the control surfaces of the sim. thats what the aces do.

<img src=http://lafayettefederation.com/screenshots/repository/turo/tn-Numbaone.jpg>
"The Force is strong with this one." -What an ace said of RayBanJockey during a fight when he was still a newbie.
<a href=http://www.theinformationminister.com/press.php?ID=612109283>news update</a>

XyZspineZyX
07-05-2003, 11:48 PM
I too used to have trim on an unused throttle..but my new rig forced me to put it on the wheel. I have Prop pitch on the slider now.

And I NEVER play offline, and yes I AM an ace.....

pffffffffffftttttttttttttttt!!!!!!!!!!!!!......... .........

<center><FONT color="red">[b]BlitzPig_EL</FONT>[B]<CENTER> http://old.jccc.net/~droberts/p40/images/p40home.gif
</img>.
"All men dream, but not equally. Those who dream by night in the dusty recesses of their minds, wake in the day that it was vanity:
but the dreamers of the day are dangerous men, for they may act on their dreams with open eyes, to make them possible. "
--T.E. Lawrence

XyZspineZyX
07-05-2003, 11:48 PM
mods must be slacking this isnt locked yet

arguing
fighting
bashing
lies


Lock it up

http://mysite.verizon.net/vze4jz7i/ls.gif

Good dogfighters bring ammo home, Great ones don't. (c) Leadspitter

XyZspineZyX
07-05-2003, 11:56 PM
Long July 4th weekend + Mods =

http://wolfsdencrafts.com/uploads/Gone_fishing_green.jpg



<center>http://www.churchofthegrey.com/coolferret/hal9000/hal2.jpg <marquee>Well, I don't think there is any question about it. It can only be attributable to human error. This sort of thing has cropped up before and it has always been due to human error.</marquee></center>


Message Edited on 07/05/0310:57PM by Heuristic_ALgor

XyZspineZyX
07-06-2003, 12:00 AM
ElAurens wrote:
- I too used to have trim on an unused throttle..but
- my new rig forced me to put it on the wheel. I have
- Prop pitch on the slider now.
-
- And I NEVER play offline, and yes I AM an ace.....


To be an ace in FB you need a separate throttle control device (CH Pro throttle USB goes good with a MSFFB2) This is because of the new complex engine requirements. I didn't want to have to bite the bullet but after an exaustive study I concluded this was the only way. You've got one hand (right) on the stick, and your thumb and forefinger (left) on the trim. That is the proper attack position.



<img src=http://lafayettefederation.com/screenshots/repository/turo/tn-Numbaone.jpg>
"The Force is strong with this one." -What an ace said of RayBanJockey during a fight when he was still a newbie.
<a href=http://www.theinformationminister.com/press.php?ID=612109283>news update</a>

XyZspineZyX
07-06-2003, 12:06 AM
RayBanJockey wrote:
- To be an ace in FB you need a separate throttle
- control device (CH Pro throttle USB goes good with a
- MSFFB2) This is because of the new complex engine
- requirements. I didn't want to have to bite the
- bullet but after an exaustive study I concluded this
- was the only way. You've got one hand (right) on
- the stick, and your thumb and forefinger (left) on
- the trim. That is the proper attack position.



You'll be telling us it was your idea to use pedals next, RBJ.

You sure it wasn't the pillow that you were biting when the bandits were all over your six?/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

<center><table bgcolor="black" width="400px"><tr><td>http://homepage.ntlworld.com/steve.gorman/banner2.jpg



<center> Click here for the greeting! (http://homepage.ntlworld.com/steve.gorman/in-out.wav)</center>

<center>http://homepage.ntlworld.com/steve.gorman/moloko.jpg

<font size="+1">Horrorshow!</font></center>

</td></tr></table></center>

XyZspineZyX
07-06-2003, 12:12 AM
your arguing is missing RBJs point
he can exploit right now ... he wants his old exploit back cause he prefers it & is saying that because the old trim allowed everyone to use trim for advantage then why not revert in stead of me alone ( RBJ ) having an exploit

i say it took a little bit of intelligence to work it out ( the exploit as it is now in FB )

RBJ .... you dont need trim to be an ACE

using that trem implys skill at playing this game ..... extra plug-ins like a seperate throttle will not add to your understanding of fight tactics or your skill at aiming

how do you fly level with full trim ready for a turn ?? interesting

XyZspineZyX
07-06-2003, 12:15 AM
I need help with trimming...

I printed a screenshot of my plane.
I bought the best scissors I could get.
I trim and trim, but it effects nothing when I play?
Where does the slider go? Can I just tape it to the scissors?

Help me fly with precision.

<font face="Courier New">
&nbspBaldieJr
_____ | _____
_\__(o)__/_
./ \.
Whiners don't play vulchers
(er, winners)
</font>

XyZspineZyX
07-06-2003, 12:21 AM
I thought all the IBTL's all left to their little private forum?

I am talking about trim and the trolls come wandering back in.

Commie, first you were a nun complaining about people who mispelled words, now you are an anarchist rapist/murderer? What gives son? Do you really think that guy is cool, or that the mods will tolerate your homophibic references or sig links to sexual inuendo?

Try to talk about trim and I have to filter the spammers/insulters/accusers.

Let's stick to the topic and that topic is TRIM. You know, and I know, that something is not right with it. This thread is about how to make it better. I say speed it back up for gameplay and fairness.

<img src=http://lafayettefederation.com/screenshots/repository/turo/tn-Numbaone.jpg>
"The Force is strong with this one." -What an ace said of RayBanJockey during a fight when he was still a newbie.
<a href=http://www.theinformationminister.com/press.php?ID=612109283>news update</a>

XyZspineZyX
07-06-2003, 12:23 AM
Just when I needed a haircut...
Your remark brought a smile to my face. lol.

Thunderbolt56 wrote:
- Trim? Just a little off the back and sides please.
-
<img
- src="http://home.earthlink.net/~aclzkim1/_uimages/
- TBolt.jpg">
-
-
-

XyZspineZyX
07-06-2003, 12:42 AM
Would our lives be improved with no more trim threads? Lower blood pressure maybe? Less wear on our keyboard? More time to fly? Time to eat a peach?

Da Buzz
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
<center> Butcher Bird
<center>
http://www.histoiredumonde.net/images/20_eme_siecle/avions/fw190/intro.jpg

<center.
http://perso.wanadoo.es/francesclleonsi/corsair2SKY.gif

XyZspineZyX
07-06-2003, 12:49 AM
I have the full CH setup.

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</img>.
"All men dream, but not equally. Those who dream by night in the dusty recesses of their minds, wake in the day that it was vanity:
but the dreamers of the day are dangerous men, for they may act on their dreams with open eyes, to make them possible. "
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XyZspineZyX
07-06-2003, 12:56 AM
BuzzU wrote:
- Would our lives be improved with no more trim
- threads? Lower blood pressure maybe? Less wear on
- our keyboard? More time to fly? Time to eat a peach?


Agreed. It cracks me up when RBJ accuses other people of trolling. Pots and kettles, what?/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

It also amuses me greatly that he can't seperate my identity from my sig. What a mar0on!/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-tongue.gif

And he can't spell "innuendo", either!/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

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XyZspineZyX
07-06-2003, 01:37 AM
I can't belive it! I finally made myself read a full trimwhiners thread with plenty of RBJ thown in.

A few observations;

RBJ, I can see why you get so many negative responses. At least two of the posters actually fly real airplanes. Many more have flown some in the military. Have you? If not, just where do you get your "credentials" from?

I've (still) only got the original IL-2. Trim is OK in it (for a game), but with my few real piloting experiences, trim seemed slow compared to the (game). Sounds to me like FB is more realistic.

You want a level playing field? Seems you have it. Since you "can't cheat" online, and you have FB like your fellow flyers, isn't that 'level'?

ElAurens idea of putting the trim on the mouse wheel wasn't stupid, it was brilliant! Just like a real plane, (or at least the ones I've flown), a trim wheel. I kicked myself for not thinking of it myself. (I have no HOTAS)

Here, Here ElAurens

Finally RBJ, in case you haven't noticed, (and why would an ace like you pay any attention to NASCAR), they DO make Dale Earnhardt Jr. use a restrictor plate.

I've said enough. Probably too much. I'm going to say goodbye now to trimwhiners threads.

Well...maybe after the patch comes out I'll need to read one more RBJ post about it.

I hope God will forgive me.



*****Only left handed people are in their right minds.*****

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Message Edited on 07/05/03 05:41PM by rexcarrs

Message Edited on 07/05/03 05:41PM by rexcarrs

Message Edited on 07/05/0305:47PM by rexcarrs

XyZspineZyX
07-06-2003, 02:04 AM
rexcarrs wrote:
- I can't belive it! I finally made myself read a
- full trimwhiners thread with plenty of RBJ thown in.
-
- A few observations;
-
- RBJ, I can see why you get so many negative
- responses. At least two of the posters actually fly
- real airplanes. Many more have flown some in the
- military. Have you? If not, just where do you get
- your "credentials" from?
-
- I've (still) only got the original IL-2. Trim is OK
- in it (for a game), but with my few real piloting
- experiences, trim seemed slow compared to the
- (game). Sounds to me like FB is more realistic.
-
- You want a level playing field? Seems you have it.
- Since you "can't cheat" online, and you have FB like
- your fellow flyers, isn't that 'level'?
-
- ElAurens idea of putting the trim on the mouse wheel
- wasn't stupid, it was brilliant! Just like a real
- plane, (or at least the ones I've flown), a trim
- wheel. I kicked myself for not thinking of it
- myself. (I have no HOTAS)
-
- Here, Here ElAurens
-
- Finally RBJ, in case you haven't noticed, (and why
- would an ace like you pay any attention to NASCAR),
- they DO make Dale Earnhardt Jr. use a restrictor
- plate.
-
- I've said enough. Probably too much.


Rexcars, welcome to the forum. The first thing you have to realize, is that you are wrong on all counts. You say I get negative responses because a couple guys can fly a cessna? People who fly cessnas or airbusses and come into this game forum acting like they are "experts" on WW2 sims really get my goat. I get so many negative responses because of acephobia. I am just here to help everyone out. You don't even have FB so I will take what you say with a grain of salt. And you are also wrong in your assertation that I can no longer still kick the online butts of people who don't use trim. I can still turn just as hard as in IL2. Once again, you have not grasped the concept of my threads. If you have IL2 and you think putting trim on your mousewheel instead of the throttle wheel of your joystick is brilliant, then I feel sorry for you. You will never know the pleasures of trim nirvana. and as far as NASCAR, I'm watching it right now. And not all races are restrictor plate that's why I am telling you. His dad didn't like them either.

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XyZspineZyX
07-06-2003, 02:20 AM
RBJ

After reading that whole stuff (not really/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif ) it seems RBJ became to often shot down since FB is installed at his HD. Learn to fly as the game is RBJ, Oleg stated there's no way to speed up that trim thing, so why you repeatly try to bore the community with always the same schoolboy things like "I want my trim back".

OLEG SAID THERE'S NO WAY, ACCEPT IT BOY./i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

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XyZspineZyX
07-06-2003, 02:40 AM
Oleg can do whatever he wants to trim. If he wanted to speed it up, he could. And I get just as many kills, if not more, in FB compared to IL2. Since "only those in the know" can benefit from trim now, it just means there are less skilled pilots out there overall.

<img src=http://lafayettefederation.com/screenshots/repository/turo/tn-Numbaone.jpg>
"The Force is strong with this one." -What an ace said of RayBanJockey during a fight when he was still a newbie.
<a href=http://www.theinformationminister.com/press.php?ID=612109283>news update</a>

XyZspineZyX
07-06-2003, 03:05 AM
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No1RAAF_Pourshot

XO No1RAAF

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XyZspineZyX
07-06-2003, 03:33 AM
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Max in Alaska
Woof, woof, woof, trim, splat, woof, woof...
</center>

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Waiting for Lomac
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XyZspineZyX
07-06-2003, 04:24 AM
Dude, Get a grip in reality, your claims of "asseness" are plainly ridiculous, Airplanes have not changed since WW2, they still have engines, wings, pilots and the same systems you can see in any museum, only newer, the only thing has changed is the reliability of powerplants, newer engines ( based in the old ones) and newer navigation systems, I understand you have not experience nor knowledge in anything related to powered flight, and still, act like you know something, your lame excuse of trim ( BTW...you didnt know what the heck was a trim surface until I explained it to you) is so old its useless, Oleg said no more changes to trim speed, learn to live with it, as for your "RBJ cheating"...please forget about it, no body wants it.

I just hope you never get near a plane, you will kill yourself with your lack of understanding for technical systems.

PS: and Still nobody has seen you online ........hey guys...anyone has seen anybody called RBJ Online?....Ubi crowd....Gamespy crowd....hyperlobby crowd....any one?.......no response......case closed little troll.



RayBanJockey wrote:
-
--
- Rexcars, welcome to the forum. The first thing you
- have to realize, is that you are wrong on all
- counts. You say I get negative responses because a
- couple guys can fly a cessna? People who fly
- cessnas or airbusses and come into this game forum
- acting like they are "experts" on WW2 sims really
- get my goat. I get so many negative responses
- because of acephobia.

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XyZspineZyX
07-06-2003, 04:26 AM
He'd rather play with himself /i/smilies/16x16_robot-wink.gif

<center>http://www.churchofthegrey.com/coolferret/hal9000/hal2.jpg <marquee>Well, I don't think there is any question about it. It can only be attributable to human error. This sort of thing has cropped up before and it has always been due to human error.</marquee></center>

Tully__
07-06-2003, 04:32 AM
Ray is essentially right in all his technical assesments. Trim in Sturmovik 1.2 works exactly the same as in FB except for speed of application. You can get around the speed of application thing by recalibrating your joystick pitch axis with the center position offset. Trim does not in FB and did not in IL2 allow you to exceed maximum control deflection (though it was graphically represented that way because the trim tabs aren't articulated on the 3D model).

What trim does allow you to do (and is supposed to do) is adjust the zero control force balance point for the controls. There are two ways to deflect conrol surfaces, by pilot input or by trim tab input. At high speed, pilots are not strong enough to deflect the control surfaces all the way to the stop, the pressure of the airflow pushing to controls back to center is too much. Add some trim and the controls can be deflected a little further, giving better turns at high speed. This also allows the pilot to adjust for steady climb/descent/level flight without high control loads at different speeds.

I don't know where the comments about fast trim on the PZL P.11 come from, I flew it last night and the trim works just as slow as all the other aircraft. Maybe it just doesn't need much trim input due to the low speeds /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif .

While there is clearly some dispute about which method (instant response or delayed response) plays better or more closely resembles real life, Oleg has firmly stated that he will not be changing the implementation in FB. That being the case, this discussion is closed due to all the name calling.



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