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View Full Version : Cockpit sounds spoil the Bounce - poll



XyZspineZyX
08-06-2003, 07:26 PM
Hi pilots,

I would like to ask you how many of you would like to be able to bounce properly. That means being able to close in behind enemy under 50m distance and not being heard.

I have done some tests and it seems that certain pilots can hear an enemy´s engine from as far as 700m at their six in IL2/FB. And everyone can hear a plane at six when it is under 200m.

That seems very unrealistic to me as most of the kills in WWII happened from low six possition and the bounced pilot never knew he was not alone till he saw tracers or had his machine hit.

It is obvious that pilots could not see nor hear anything from low behind no matter how close the attacker was...everyone has surely read about pilots closing in at distances under 50m and the prey never knowing about them being there and so close at that.

IL2/FB is an excellent sim and a very realistic one and to have it even more realistic I am voting for a NO SOUND FROM SIX at any distance to make proper bounces possible. It could be included in the realism settings...SIX SOUNDS OFF or ON.

Please everyone express your opinion so that we all know whether this step to more realism is welcome or not.

Best regards

CSL_Kocour

XyZspineZyX
08-06-2003, 07:26 PM
Hi pilots,

I would like to ask you how many of you would like to be able to bounce properly. That means being able to close in behind enemy under 50m distance and not being heard.

I have done some tests and it seems that certain pilots can hear an enemy´s engine from as far as 700m at their six in IL2/FB. And everyone can hear a plane at six when it is under 200m.

That seems very unrealistic to me as most of the kills in WWII happened from low six possition and the bounced pilot never knew he was not alone till he saw tracers or had his machine hit.

It is obvious that pilots could not see nor hear anything from low behind no matter how close the attacker was...everyone has surely read about pilots closing in at distances under 50m and the prey never knowing about them being there and so close at that.

IL2/FB is an excellent sim and a very realistic one and to have it even more realistic I am voting for a NO SOUND FROM SIX at any distance to make proper bounces possible. It could be included in the realism settings...SIX SOUNDS OFF or ON.

Please everyone express your opinion so that we all know whether this step to more realism is welcome or not.

Best regards

CSL_Kocour

XyZspineZyX
08-06-2003, 08:07 PM
S!


True..remove the distant shooting sounds(hearing enemies shooting km's away etc.) and the "all hearing ear" /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif Bouncing is impossible unless U cut throttle to 0% before coming in...I join Kocour on this: Remove "all hearine ear".

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XyZspineZyX
08-06-2003, 08:18 PM
actually...I forgot to mention that we did tests with engine on idle as well http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Dora engine on idle was heard even better than with throttle on 100%

I did many experiments with that and tried to bounce with my throttle cut...no help there...idle or not you are heard

XyZspineZyX
08-06-2003, 08:25 PM
Put me down as "agree".

Thanks for asking!

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XyZspineZyX
08-07-2003, 12:02 AM
Big Bump.

And not only the "all hearing ear," but also the "all seeing eye."

Let me quickly hijack this post:

External View with Padlock should be an option.

I like External View
I don't mind Padlock

But both of them together make "bouncing" impossible, too.

XyZspineZyX
08-07-2003, 12:05 AM
Odd, I've never heard anyone sneaking up on my six.

I've had plenty of guys hose their bounce by starting to shoot when they are too far away, giving me plenty of time to evade however.

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XyZspineZyX
08-07-2003, 12:27 AM
im not sure if this is pertenant, because i simply didn't have the time to read the whole thing over, but if you wan't to bounce correctly, you're engine should be idliing when you get within 1.5k http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif.

I have done testing as well (actually, just playing), and you can hack the tail off a bandit with your props before he'll hear you if your engine is idling http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif.

The_Blue_Devil
08-07-2003, 12:33 AM
Thats why Experienced Pilots here idle their engines before they get near the enemy..most times the enemy will lose track of you and you can sneak up on him because you are running silent. You don't need power until after you begin to fire..you'll be close to compression speed from the dive as is.

<center>----------------------------------------------------------------------------</center>
<center>[b]"Pilots who liked to dogifght could do it their own way. I avoided it. I always attacked at full speed and I evaded a bounce in the same manner. When you were hit from above and behind, and your attacker held his fire until he was really close, you knew you were in with someone who had a great deal of experience.-Erich Hartmann"[b]</center>


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XyZspineZyX
08-07-2003, 12:42 AM
joining kocour on his request : remove the sonar plz

XyZspineZyX
08-07-2003, 12:42 AM
Interesting observations.

Still, if you really want a "poll", it should be done in General Discussion. But, if you want to bring some information about sound propogation to the attention of the developers, then this forum is the right place.

Nonetheless, you asked for an opinion on the topic, and I have to say that I am agnostic on this subject /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif . It would be illuminating if there was any published research available in this area by NACA/NASA, etc.

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XyZspineZyX
08-07-2003, 04:56 AM
CSL_Kocour wrote:
- Hi pilots,
-
- I would like to ask you how many of you would like
- to be able to bounce properly. That means being able
- to close in behind enemy under 50m distance and not
- being heard.
-
- I have done some tests and it seems that certain
- pilots can hear an enemy´s engine from as far as
- 700m at their six in IL2/FB. And everyone can hear a
- plane at six when it is under 200m.
-
- That seems very unrealistic to me as most of the
- kills in WWII happened from low six possition and
- the bounced pilot never knew he was not alone till
- he saw tracers or had his machine hit.
-
- It is obvious that pilots could not see nor hear
- anything from low behind no matter how close the
- attacker was...everyone has surely read about pilots
- closing in at distances under 50m and the prey never
- knowing about them being there and so close at that.
-
- IL2/FB is an excellent sim and a very realistic one
- and to have it even more realistic I am voting for a
- NO SOUND FROM SIX at any distance to make proper
- bounces possible. It could be included in the
- realism settings...SIX SOUNDS OFF or ON.
-
- Please everyone express your opinion so that we all
- know whether this step to more realism is welcome or
- not.
-
- Best regards
-
- CSL_Kocour

SOUNDS GOOD TO ME! REMOVE THE SOUND! Pun intended! /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif


TAGERT
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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XyZspineZyX
08-07-2003, 06:25 AM
yes, this "feature" seems rather unrealistic.


remove it, please


Another thing. You can see the plane crash few kilometers away and hear the crash at the same time. This takes away the immersion, as sound travels at 330 m/s roughly, right ? /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

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XyZspineZyX
08-07-2003, 07:45 AM
its fine and adds to the game especially for us headphone users they just need to fix the engine sound of crashed aircraft that sound louder then someone actually near you. which stay there the whole game if you fly near where a plane had crashed once.


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XyZspineZyX
08-07-2003, 08:39 AM
Must be some setting or difference in sound cards. I never hear someone sneaking up on me.

If people can hear engine of another plane with other sound cards, that's messed up and should be fixed.

XyZspineZyX
08-07-2003, 08:57 AM
Nazdar Kocourku /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

I think it also depends on individual settings of distance attenuation in conf.ini - I set it to zero (not to hear anything).

Once it happened to me in old IL2, I took 190A5 and too less fuel: after climbing and approaching the enemy base, I spotted P39 climbing, closed in and 300m far from her my engine stopped idle - no fuel. Fortunately, the inertia took me close enough and I fired, flying totally silent like a glider - the poor guy told only "I didn´t hear you coming at all!" Maybe that´s the way to do it.. /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif



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XyZspineZyX
08-07-2003, 10:08 AM
Err, wasn't FB supposed to have "fixed" this?

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XyZspineZyX
08-07-2003, 10:38 AM
AFAIK that`s the part of sound bugs and should be fixed already.

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XyZspineZyX
08-07-2003, 11:29 AM
jurinko wrote:
- Nazdar Kocourku /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif
-
- I think it also depends on individual settings of
- distance attenuation in conf.ini - I set it to zero
- (not to hear anything).
-
- Once it happened to me in old IL2, I took 190A5 and
- too less fuel: after climbing and approaching the
- enemy base, I spotted P39 climbing, closed in and
- 300m far from her my engine stopped idle - no fuel.
- Fortunately, the inertia took me close enough and I
- fired, flying totally silent like a glider - the
- poor guy told only "I didn´t hear you coming at
- all!" Maybe that´s the way to do it.. /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif
-
-
-
- <center><img
- src="http://www.kurita.sk/PRIVATE/pictures/sig_il2
- .jpg"</center>

like i said previously, "Idle prop" is the way to do it indeed.

XyZspineZyX
08-07-2003, 01:41 PM
1 - Yes, different sound card users have different results. All should have the same IMO - no sound from six. No matter what card nor settings nor distance nor rpms nor planes (Except gliders - these guys probably heard more http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif - which reminds me...if you ever were towed in a glider behind a tow plane...the distance is about 100m and you hear mostly hissing wind and VERY little of a tow plane engine...in a gliderhttp://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif. Pilots were deffened by their own engines, had a radio headphones on their ears, no chance they ever heard anything and the way most kills happened in the real war is a simple proof...from six low very close without the prey ever knowing till being shot to pieces...that would be realism here.

2 - Yes, engine on idle can be heard too from dead six and even better than engine in hi rpms which does not seem realistic to me cuz nothing should be heard at all. I said I experimented with it.

3 - Yes, you are not heard when you switch your engine off but switching your engine off is not an option or is it? http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

4 - Yes, sound delay would be a nice feature too. (but not from six low http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

5 - Yes, if a plane explodes in the air or on the ground its engine sound still stays in that place for some 15min.

6 - Yes, no sound from six is the only option if we want a realistic sim so let´s see if majority agrees to it. If yes we could try asking for a change.

XyZspineZyX
08-07-2003, 06:30 PM
I agree, there should be no sound from six.

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The_Blue_Devil
08-07-2003, 06:47 PM
I don't know if you guys know much about cockpits...but they aren't exactly air tight, i.e. air gets in and so does sound. In real life you Can Hear another plane in your area, even over the sound of your own engine. You can even hear when that plane fires it's guns, and you can d*mn sure hear when you get hit. This topic is really silly IMHO. Most of the attackers that got 50m behind their prey came from above swooping down idle..you don't need power in a dive from the high six. Like I said before, EXPERIENCE teaches. Idle your engine and he can't hear or see you, Power up after your pass. Not really rocket science.

<center>----------------------------------------------------------------------------</center>
<center>[b]"Pilots who liked to dogifght could do it their own way. I avoided it. I always attacked at full speed and I evaded a bounce in the same manner. When you were hit from above and behind, and your attacker held his fire until he was really close, you knew you were in with someone who had a great deal of experience.-Erich Hartmann"[b]</center>


<center> <img src=http://www.angelfire.lycos.com/art2/devilart/MySig.gif> </center>



Message Edited on 08/07/0305:52PM by The_Blue_Devil

XyZspineZyX
08-07-2003, 07:18 PM
I agree

In real life, pilots said you can't anything besides your own engine, with the exception of your own guns, enemy guns, and projectiles hitting your plane.

XyZspineZyX
08-07-2003, 07:39 PM
JimboJake wrote:
- I agree
-
- In real life, pilots said you can't anything besides
- your own engine, with the exception of your own
- guns, enemy guns, and projectiles hitting your
- plane.
-
-


I agree, with possible exception of enemy gunfire.

I have been complaining about this since IL2.


A squadmate and I were laughing that we could hear fire below us at 3000m



Shouldn't hear this stuff imo.


Edit: Blue Devil - where you get this information from?

Everything I read says they didn't know they had an aircraft behind them until lead is filling their aircraft!!!


S!
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Message Edited on 08/07/0306:41PM by Recon_609IAP

XyZspineZyX
08-07-2003, 08:17 PM
if anyone here has ever even flown in a cessna, you arnt gonna hear much but your own engine

bout the same way with anything with straightpipes (no muffler)

ive got dual straight pipes on my truck, '97 gmc 350v8, you dont hear much of anything else besides that, specially if you got some rpm

so in FB i dont think you should hear anything outside the pit besides your engine, your gunfire, your plane takeing hits, maybe real close flak explosions, and maybe planes if they are real close and beside you, something kinda along those lines

----------------------------------------

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XyZspineZyX
08-07-2003, 08:22 PM
well if your having toruble sneaking up dont, zoom in fast before they react

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XyZspineZyX
08-07-2003, 08:50 PM
I agree that the sound in IL2/FB is pretty messed up. Please make it impossible to hear the enemy's engine at distances greater than 30m from within the cockpit while your engine is running. With the engine off and sitting on the ground you should be able to hear them if they are within 1km or 2km. This should be a simple code change. Something on the order of

"if cockpit = true
and if engine = true
then enemy enginesound = false"

Well, maybe not that simple. But the logic should be the same /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

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XyZspineZyX
08-07-2003, 09:10 PM
Agreed whole heartly on this one.

I have complained about this on several occasion since IL2 since I fly much FW190. And with that plane you hardly have any other choice than bounce attacks, it does affect bf109 aswell ofcourse /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-sad.gif

I really hope they iron out these issues with sound engine. Has it occured how Harttman got all hes victoryes, by sneaking really close and firing accurate bursts. Now he couldnt have doned this if enemy was aware of hes intentions.

XyZspineZyX
08-07-2003, 10:04 PM
I think cockpit sounds are ok the way they are. Situational awareness is so much worse at a computer screen than it is in real life, that the added help the audibility of the other planes engine sounds just barely makes up for it, and equally just barely brings SA back to what it's like in reality.

XyZspineZyX
08-07-2003, 10:16 PM
kocour, i never hear enemies plane until it is about 50-80 m far from me...

but i have better idea for u. What about item in realism setting... SIX VISIBILITY OFF or ON

than it should be bounces like hell /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif
magnificent for all boomers /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

best regards.

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***** 3.IAP_CHARLIE *****

The_Blue_Devil
08-08-2003, 12:21 AM
Recon_609IAP wrote:
-
- A squadmate and I were laughing that we could hear
- fire below us at 3000m
-
-
-
- Shouldn't hear this stuff imo.
-
-
- Edit: Blue Devil - where you get this information
- from?
-
- Everything I read says they didn't know they had an
- aircraft behind them until lead is filling their
- aircraft!!!
-
-
- S!
- 609IAP_Recon
-
-

Common knowledge m8. Most sound is drowned out by the engine of your fighter in real life, it gets to the point where your sense of hearing is null so you ignore it...however gunfire, strikes on your plane, and another engine in proximity are not. Believe me when a P-47 fired it's guns everything within a mile Plus knew about it. Even the double wasp was drowned out by the sound. I agree that hearing another engine while say he is on the Deck and you are at 25,000ft is a bit unrealistic, however hearing him within 20-30m is not. Most pilots that were taken by surprise were sitting fat dumb and happy. I suppose it depended on what engine you had yourself, the Mustang was notoriously loud for it's pilots.

<center>----------------------------------------------------------------------------</center>
<center>[b]"Pilots who liked to dogifght could do it their own way. I avoided it. I always attacked at full speed and I evaded a bounce in the same manner. When you were hit from above and behind, and your attacker held his fire until he was really close, you knew you were in with someone who had a great deal of experience.-Erich Hartmann"[b]</center>


<center> <img src=http://www.angelfire.lycos.com/art2/devilart/MySig.gif> </center>



Message Edited on 08/07/0311:23PM by The_Blue_Devil

XyZspineZyX
08-08-2003, 04:50 AM
The_Blue_Devil wrote:
- I don't know if you guys know much about
- cockpits...but they aren't exactly air tight, i.e.
- air gets in and so does sound. In real life you Can
- Hear another plane in your area, even over the sound
- of your own engine. You can even hear when that
- plane fires it's guns, and you can d*mn sure hear
- when you get hit. This topic is really silly IMHO.
- Most of the attackers that got 50m behind their prey
- came from above swooping down idle..you don't need
- power in a dive from the high six. Like I said
- before, EXPERIENCE teaches. Idle your engine and he
- can't hear or see you, Power up after your pass.
- Not really rocket science.
-
I disagree. If I idle my bf-109, I cannot shoot with accuracy. Poor firing platform. I never read an account of pilots shutting down their engines to get a bounce. This is not submarine warfare.

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XyZspineZyX
08-08-2003, 05:18 AM
The_Blue_Devil wrote:
- I don't know if you guys know much about
- cockpits...but they aren't exactly air tight,

Even the presuresed ones?

- i.e. air gets in and so does sound.

Agreed, but, not the only way.

- In real life you Can Hear another plane in your
- area, even over the sound of your own engine.

Doubt it. Should be easy to verify it though.. plenty of real pilots here.. But my inital guess would be no way! In that unless the other plane can get his eng closer to you then your eng.. I just find it very VERY hard to belive. Most flight helmets of the era had ear phones over the ears, and even the mic was not your typical mic... due to all the noise in the cockpit they made the mic work by pressing it aginst the neck and picking up the vibrations off your neck.. ie not transmited threw the air from you mouth to a mic... where it would pic up all the noise in the cockpit too.

- You can even hear when that plane fires it's guns,

That I would belive, but eng? Doubt it.

- and you can d*mn sure hear when you get hit.

Even if you didnt hear it... you would feel it.

- This topic is really silly IMHO.

Nice thing about forums, one mans silly is another mans serious.

- Most of the attackers that got 50m behind their prey
- came from above swooping down idle..you don't need
- power in a dive from the high six.

Dont think any one said they didnt, they are only pointing out that in the game where a NOOB has it pegged and on thier six can be heard... Combined that with the bug of hearing a dead AC on the gnd well after it crashed makes one think there is a snd bug for sure.

- Like I said before, EXPERIENCE teaches.

Too bad you dont have REAL EXPERIENCE with regards to sound in the cockpit with another AC on your six.


- Idle your engine and he can't hear or see you,
- Power up after your pass.

Not the point, point is alot of us dont think you should be able to hear them either way... Not thins I know this for sure, I just find it very Very VERY hard to belive... espically as clear and loud as it is in FB.

- Not really rocket science.

Agreed, But the study of sound waves does require science... just not the rocket kind! /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif


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XyZspineZyX
08-08-2003, 05:31 AM
Well, i'm sure that you have the experience neccesary to doubt what Devil says, because of course you flew in WWII right? Oh... my mistake. As i've said before, one of the guys in our squad has a grandfather who DID... and it's kindof shocking that he'd be wrong and all, i guess being there doesn't qualify as knowing what you're talking about. The fact of the matter is this: you can hear engine sounds in the game, they did IRL (i'd rather not get into the Dopler effect), and disabling it because you people can't get around using your engine full power in a dive (rediculous anyways) shouldn't be the way the game is catored to anyways.

XyZspineZyX
08-08-2003, 05:52 AM
WUAF_Mj_Hero wrote:
- Well, i'm sure that you have the experience
- neccesary to doubt what Devil says, because of
- course you flew in WWII right?

So.. Tell me, what condition is it you have that you didnt understand the part where I said "Not saying I know this for sure, I just find it very Very VERY hard to belive.

- Oh... my mistake.

Agreed 100%

- As i've said before, one of the guys in our squad has a
- grandfather who DID... and it's kindof shocking that
- he'd be wrong and all, i guess being there doesn't
- qualify as knowing what you're talking about.

LOL! Guess I missed the part where you told eveyone that you asked this gentelman about this very subject. Much like you missed my statement about not being sure.

- The fact of the matter is this: you can hear engine
- sounds in the game, they did IRL

I still have my doubts.. What kind of AC was this grand father flying? And what did he say he heard? Was it an open cockpit I16 type within a pack of bombers? That I would not find too hard to belive.

-(i'd rather not get into the Dopler effect),

Oh please do! I would love to see your attempt at it. Most people can and do know alot about how sound changes when comming at you vs going away... Not rocket science (love that line) but still science.. That and I think eveyone can relate to a cop car comming at them, and then passing by.. Eitherway it still requires you to hear it! And when your all bundled up with head phones and canopy and have a 12 cylinder muffeless monster 4 feet away and pointed at you... Well let me just say what I have allready said.. I find it very VERY hard to belive that the sound of another eng could be heard, and if it could, even harder to bevlive it would be as loud and clear as it is protrayed in FB! PLEASE note, when someone says "I find it very VERY hard to belive} *that* is not to be confused with "Im 100% sure you couldnt hear it" Just encase you wanted to go off on another rant.. lets nip that in the butt right here and now, K?

- and disabling it because you people can't get
- around using your engine full power in a dive
- (rediculous anyways)

Dont know of anyone saying it should be removed because a NOOB does it in a power dive... I think most are just saying you shouldnt be able to hear it when the NOOD does.

- shouldn't be the way the game is catored to anyways.

Agreed, Im all for facts over feelings... But I would req more clearfication on this gentemans experances and situations than your "I know a guy who knows a guy who knows a guy who is his granddad said"




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XyZspineZyX
08-08-2003, 06:54 AM
instead of giving you gratification of thinking i read your monster of a "comeback," or so it seemed with the first few lines... i will simply say this: If you weren't there, dont B*tch aobut what you don't know... He fly 109's (i don't know what model, so don't bother asking).

When you hop into a replica WWII plane, and have someone sneak up on you from behind, and THEN confirm to all of us that you indeed CAN'T hear them coming, please feel free to document your findings, and tell me how i was wrong etc. etc... untill then, CRAM IT, because i'm pretty confident that Oleg isn't going to change the way the engine acts because you "find it very VERY hard to believe."



Whining about what you find "Very VERY hard to believe" isn't going to do anything but p*ss people off; congrats, it's working.

XyZspineZyX
08-08-2003, 06:59 AM
WUAF_Mj_Hero wrote:
- instead of giving you gratification of thinking i
- read your monster of a "comeback," or so it seemed
- with the first few lines...

LOL! Which only proves that you did read it all!

- i will simply say this:

From you? How could it be anything but simple?

- If you weren't there, dont B*tch aobut what you
- don't know... He fly 109's (i don't know what model,
- so don't bother asking).

Got a mirror? You wernt there either!

- When you hop into a replica WWII plane, and have
- someone sneak up on you from behind, and THEN
- confirm to all of us that you indeed CAN'T hear them
- coming, please feel free to document your findings,
- and tell me how i was wrong etc. etc...

Your Wrong... NEXT!

- untill then, CRAM IT,

LOL! Yup.. you read it all! You busted ego responce proves it here!

- because i'm pretty confident that Oleg

Pretty confident... Where you there? LOL!

- isn't going to change the way the engine acts
- because you "find it very VERY hard to believe."

LOL.. Where did you get that VERY withou reading it? LOL!

God.. that was easy!



TAGERT
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
If WAR was not the ANSWER.. Than what the H was your QUESTION?

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The_Blue_Devil
08-08-2003, 07:03 AM
tagert wrote:.
-
- Too bad you dont have REAL EXPERIENCE with regards
- to sound in the cockpit with another AC on your six.
-
Man unless you are 75-80 some odd years old neither do you. =0) If you are going to try and throw something in someone's face at least have experience in that area yourself. I was actually talking about in game experience when I was talking about idling during the bounce. Plain and simple you don't need power for the bounce if done correctly. The engine noise has been in IL2 since the old days. We counter that by idling the engine to achieve surprise. Read a post before you reply with sarcasim.


P.S. Continued trolling only makes you look bad, it doesn't irritate anyone.

<center>----------------------------------------------------------------------------</center>
<center>[b]"Pilots who liked to dogifght could do it their own way. I avoided it. I always attacked at full speed and I evaded a bounce in the same manner. When you were hit from above and behind, and your attacker held his fire until he was really close, you knew you were in with someone who had a great deal of experience.-Erich Hartmann"[b]</center>


<center> <img src=http://www.angelfire.lycos.com/art2/devilart/MySig.gif> </center>



Message Edited on 08/08/0306:07AM by The_Blue_Devil

XyZspineZyX
08-08-2003, 07:14 AM
The_Blue_Devil wrote:
- Man unless you are 75-80 some odd years old neither
- do you. =0)

I never said I did! Nor did I state it as fact, I even went as far as to point out that I was not sure. Where as you said... And I quote

>>don't know if you guys know much about
>>cockpits...but they aren't exactly air tight,
>>i.e. air gets in and so does sound. In real
>>life you Can Hear another plane in your area,
>>even over the sound of your own engine.

Note that no where in your statment does it say *I think so* or *maybe* you state it as if it was fact, ie IN REAL LIFE and all.

- If you are going to try and throw something in
- someone's face at least have experience
- in that area yourself.

LOL! What do you mean by TRY? I think I did a good job of throwing it back in your face?

- I was actually talking about in game experience
- when I was talking about idling during the bounce.

Oh.. so when you said... and I QUOTE

>>In real life you Can Hear another plane in
>>your area, even over the sound of your own engine.

You were not actually talking about REAL LIFE... you were talking about... how did you put it? GAME EXPERIENCE? Hmmmmmm I find that very VERY hard to belive!


- Plain and simple

Plain and simply wrong!

- you don't need power for the bounce if done
- correctly. The engine noise has been in IL2
- since the old days. We counter that by idling
- the engine to achieve surprise.

Never said you did or that it wasnt or that you dont. I was just replying to WHAT YOU SAID WHEN YOU SAID... AND I QUOTE

>>don't know if you guys know much about
>>cockpits...but they aren't exactly air tight,
>>i.e. air gets in and so does sound. In real
>>life you Can Hear another plane in your area,
>>even over the sound of your own engine.

How did you put it? Plane and Simple?

- Read a post before you reply with sarcasim.

DID! Now if the shoe fits.. RUN WITH IT!


TAGERT
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
If WAR was not the ANSWER.. Than what the H was your QUESTION?

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The_Blue_Devil
08-08-2003, 08:08 AM
Man you are a supreme troll. Quote all you want..it means nothing when you post it out of the context in which it was used. You put three of my posts together to prove your point and then talk about throwing it "In my Face." The mere fact that you were out to do that proves your level of maturity is sub-standard. In your mind you will chalk it up to a victory...hey glad I could build up your self-esteem. On a serious note, Children like you get posts locked. This will be my Final post in this thread. At some point everyone has to show integrity, now is my time. I don't know everything this is true, but the beauty of being human is the ability to learn from mistakes/misinformation/myth vs, truth. I'll have to ask Monroe about what he heard in his cockpit over the course of the war being that he flew both Thunderbolts and Mustangs. We can speculate all we want being that we weren't there, I guess to settle this for myself I will ask someone that was there themself.

<center>----------------------------------------------------------------------------</center>
<center>[b]"Pilots who liked to dogifght could do it their own way. I avoided it. I always attacked at full speed and I evaded a bounce in the same manner. When you were hit from above and behind, and your attacker held his fire until he was really close, you knew you were in with someone who had a great deal of experience.-Erich Hartmann"[b]</center>


<center> <img src=http://www.angelfire.lycos.com/art2/devilart/MySigII.gif> </center>

XyZspineZyX
08-08-2003, 09:14 AM
Case closed ladies and gentlemen.
(also my last post)

XyZspineZyX
08-08-2003, 11:13 AM
LOL LOL LOL that was the funniest thing i ever read thanxhttp://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif
and in my imho its a sim not real life and its the best out there if it is deamed unrealistic and they fix it so be it if not deal with it or go play CFS3 if u can stand to that is lol

XyZspineZyX
08-08-2003, 11:30 AM
agree with orriginal post (about sounds being heard to far away)...

Also Is´nt it odd that some engines seam to sound more on idle than 100% throttle, or am only I having that?...


BTW patch will bring reworked sounds they say, lets hope that brings something...

XyZspineZyX
08-08-2003, 06:25 PM
Ok, some of you guys probably missunderstood the purpose of this post...

It was not to be disputed here whether enemy engine is heard or not heard as it is a FACT that it was NOT heard. If they were heard there could not be so many pilots bounced unsuspecting and shot down from an extremely close distances.

It was to have a poll here whether we want FB realistic in terms of sounds or not.

So far some 15+ guys said they want no sounds from six and some 3+ said they don´t.

This sounds to me as a good odds for having at least the choice of REALISTIC SOUNDS ON/OFF

The realistic sounds would be: no engine sounds from neighbouring planes, only gunnery sounds heard - both own and enemy, hits in own plane heard, big explosion heard but with a delay according to the distance. Instead of the exterior engine sounds we could have some more interior sounds like creaking of stressed wings and fuselage etc.


Following are some excerpts from Toliver and COnstable´s book The Blond Knight of Germany about Erich Hartmann who was the king of a surprise attack victories...to prove what is real and what is not...


Page 82:

after being almost bounced by a Yak fighter Hartmann evaded him and went through a short doghfight from which he shortly dissengaged by diving away using negative Gs when seeing that he could gain no advantage (nor the Russian could gain any advantege to be accurate but that´s another story...)

The Russian lost visual contact with Hartmann and "...turned east and headed for home, no doubt full of his tale of how he almost bushwhacked the infamous Karaya One...the Black Devil.
Firewalling his throttle, Erich followed at low level directly under his adversary. Climbing steadily, with the 109´s engine wide open, in two minutes Erich had come up under the unsuspecting YAK. Throttling back less than fifty feet below the Russian machine, Erich lifted the nose, and as the enemy fighter filled his windshield with its bulk, he pressed his gun buttons.
Clunks of jagged metal flew off the Russian fighter in a deadly hail and thundered against the wings of Karaya One. Fire blowtorched out of the Russian´s engine compartment and a pall of black smoke trailed back behind the stricken fighter. The YAK was done for." (Still another storry about damage model and ammo effectiveness from close distance.)

Then the Russian bailed...

U guys know what is FIFTY FEET? Thats 15.25 metres...and the Russian still flew straight on never suspecting something was going on down below him EVEN THOU he could be extremely cautious after the recent fight...

Page 113

"Erich´s lifesaving intuition overrode these pleasant thoughts like a small, insistent, electrical shock. Snapping back to attention, Erich swung his head around to be sure his wingman was still with him (he had to look back and SEE if the wingy is there cuz he could not use his ears for automatic confirmation of his wingies possition...) Blessin was in position, just fine, but lancing in on him was an uninvited No. 3 - a Red fighter about to hold his triggers down on Erich´s wingman. (The Russian was about to shoot and none of the two Germans knew about him TILL they SAW HIM.)

What happens in FB is that people HEAR the enemy and then they look to see where the enemy is...that´s very wrong and as one guy said it here quite correctly..."This is no submarine warfare..."

Page 163

"The Me-109´s went screaming down on the Mustangs. Erich judged his bounce perfectly, closing in rapidly behind the rear ship in the unsuspecting American formation. The distance between the two fighters shrank rapidly. Three hundred meters...250 meters...200 meters- 150 meters...100 meters...the white and blue star insignia was close enough to touch. The P51 filled his windshield. His guns roared for two seconds."...P51 shot down...

Yet another neat bounce...no thtrottling back...from up and behind to six, getting under 100m without the Americans knowing he was there...


There is simply no doubt about it. Fighters did not hear enemy´s engines. Now if you want to prove me wrong, you should find at least three narrations of a WWII fighter pilot describing how he heard an engine of an enemy sneaking up on him and how that saved his life...(that´s what happens in FB everyday...)

Sure in a realistic sim we would like to be able to use realistic tactics...it is not possible now and it would be very nice if it was possible.

XyZspineZyX
08-08-2003, 06:46 PM
CSL_Kocour wrote:

-
- So far some 15+ guys said they want no sounds from
- six and some 3+ said they don´t.
-

strange counts kocour... i have not same results. But your ratio 5:1 is very well! Better try it again.
we understand your post, but it is not exact for comparition. If you read answers once more and properly, we have not said good idea or not for boom and zoom-ers but sbdy of us wrote we have not this issue. I dont hear enemy plane until 50 meters approx. If you use default config and not utilized one (i know - game support it, why dont use it), you will more enjoy the game without sonar cheat.

- Following are some excerpts from Toliver and
- COnstable´s book The Blond Knight of Germany about
- Erich Hartmann who was the king of a surprise attack
- victories...to prove what is real and what is not...

this two magnificent guys have information only from Hartmann... (correct me, if i miss in this point (may be they was inswitch his gun camera? /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif ))
So it sounds me like OLT (One Lady Talk...) story.

Regards.

3 International Avia Polk
***** 3.IAP_CHARLIE *****

XyZspineZyX
08-08-2003, 07:01 PM
like i said before

even in a cessna its so loud that you wouldnt beable to hear anything outside unless its EXTREMELY CLOSE

think about this,

cessna/other light planes 150hp more or less

ww2 warbirds 1200hp - 2000hp

that much power makes alot of noise

if you have ever seen real warbirds fly they are some loud mofo's

now think about sitting right behind that

and all of this is not even considering the doppler effect which changes the sound alot

----------------------------------------

sig removed because becuase some people might get their feelings hurt.
sorry people cant even take a joke anymore

Message Edited on 08/09/0304:11PM by Rifleman75

XyZspineZyX
08-08-2003, 07:15 PM
plz find ONE account saying "i heard the ennemy in my six,then turned to find him visually" /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

in MY planes (both jets and props),the only occasions when i hear or heard other planes are/were:

1/engine off

2/engine idle on ground,other plane on the side and slightly behind

3/engine idle,other plane 100m ahead in my 2oclock at full power taking off

4/engine running,flying,other plane on my left side 30m away (2 1/2 o'clock) at cruise power ,more powerful engine than mine.

when that last plane happened to be in my 4/5 o'clock,same distance,i could see him but not hear him any more.

it was not a fighter plane but a TB20.

waiting for your accounts...

XyZspineZyX
08-08-2003, 07:25 PM
so looks like the best way to do this in FB is to make it where all the sounds are still there but your engine is just so loud it drowns everything else out

that way it would be the most realistic

and no options to change the different sound levels to keep it fair and equal somewhat

----------------------------------------

sig removed because becuase some people might get their feelings hurt.
sorry people cant even take a joke anymore

Message Edited on 08/09/0304:12PM by Rifleman75

XyZspineZyX
08-08-2003, 07:43 PM
Great idea Rifleman! Ingenious! But it would have to be done in a real foolproof way to make sure nobody can find a way around it so that nobody would be able to use the "sonar" anymore. It must be the same for all. Engine on should drown all else (cept gunnery and hits and big explosions) for everyone.

XyZspineZyX
08-08-2003, 08:56 PM
yeah, thats why i was saying that there cant be any options to turn the differnt sounds up or down

and it would have to be the same with all sound cards to

but i think it could be done, and it looks like bout the best way to do it so far

----------------------------------------

sig removed because becuase some people might get their feelings hurt.
sorry people cant even take a joke anymore

Message Edited on 08/09/0304:13PM by Rifleman75

XyZspineZyX
08-08-2003, 09:40 PM
bump

S!
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XyZspineZyX
08-09-2003, 02:55 AM
one more thing here to, its bout hartmann getting behind p39s and them not knowing

Erich Hartmann, " I got behind the airacobra, closed right in, and after a short burst the enemy fighter went down and crashed with a tremendous explosian"

Hartmann destroyed at least 33 airacobras, but admits the type could be dangerous when in the hands of a very experienced pilot

this is out of USAAF Fighters of WW2, volume one

doesnt say weather he bounced it or just beat it in a dogfight, but im guessing he probably bounced it and it didnt know he was there

----------------------------------------

sig removed because becuase some people might get their feelings hurt.
sorry people cant even take a joke anymore

Message Edited on 08/09/0304:13PM by Rifleman75

XyZspineZyX
08-09-2003, 09:19 AM
check out this link guys...lotsa good stuff there:

http://pappycain.homestead.com/


Harry J Hayduff, P-47 pilot, 78th Fighter Group


If the Hun is right on your tail, do something quick and violent. As one of our pilots once said when the first he was aware of a Hun were the tracers coming over his shoulder, "I put the stick in one corner and the rudder in the other. I don't know what happened but when I came out the Hun wasn't there any longer". If the Hun is in shooting range, always keep the ball going in each corner, never give him an opportunity to line up his sights. Remember this slows you up though.


Duane W. Beeson, P-51 pilot, 4th Fighter Group


The most important thing to a fighter pilot is speed; the faster an aircraft is moving when he spots an enemy aircraft, the sooner he will be able to take the bounce and get to the Hun. If you have any advantage on him, keep it and use it. When attacking, plan to overshoot him if possible, hold fire until within range, then shoot and clobber him down to the last instant before breaking away. It's like sneaking up behind someone and hitting them with a baseball bat.


Erich Hartmann, Me 109 pilot, Jagdgeschwader 52
Highest scoring ace of WWII with 352 kills; shot down 18 times but never wounded


The key to the approach was simple: Get in as close to the enemy as possible. Your windscreen has to be black with the image, the closer the better. In that position you could not miss and this was the essence of my attack. The farther you are from the enemy, the more chance your bullets have of missing the target, the less the impact. When you are close, and I mean very close, every shot hits home. The enemy absorbs it all. It doesn't matter what your angle is on him or what position you are firing from, it doesn't matter what he does. When you are that close, evasion is useless and too late. It matters not how good a pilot he is. All his skill is negated, you hit him and he goes down. I would say get in close, there is no guesswork.

Why would all these guys teach their pupils to get in close? So that the prey would hear them and run away? Wouldn´t they rather say: Dont´t get close and fire from as far as possible so that you are not heard???

Geting close was best cuz it was the safest way to get a kill...Get so close that every bullet hits...(Don´t worry they dont have sonar...this off course goes without saying)...Now wouldn´t it be nice to have that in our sim?

I would say in a realistic WWII combat flight simulator we should have the option to use the real WWII fighter tactics...bounce was one of them and bounce is not possible yet due to the "sonar"

The engine sound drowning everything except own and enemy gunfire, plane being hit and big explosion would be another good step towards realism...please...

XyZspineZyX
08-09-2003, 09:28 AM
I completly agree with CSL_Kocour.

I thought it was fixed in FB but it isn´t.First i could not hear planes in FB.But after my new Computer came and i had to adjust Soundsetup i can hear them now very good.Special if they are below me.
I dont know what i changed so i can hear them but it is now so /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif

In IL2 every body used sonar sound but now it is a mix /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif
Some you can bounce and some can hear you /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-sad.gif

Should be changed completely so that no outside sound is heared when engine runs or gear is off the ground.
Best as a option in realism panel!

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"Das Spiel hat keine wirklichen Bugs, das sind alles nur Kleinigkeiten"

XyZspineZyX
08-09-2003, 05:20 PM
The_Blue_Devil wrote:
- Man you are a supreme troll.

Been called worse.

- Quote all you want..

Thanks Mom!

- it means nothing when you post it out of the context
- in which it was used.

Huh? Oh.. is this a case of if you say it enough it will be precived as true? Bud.. It is not out of context! As a mater of fact I re-posted the whole para graph, like this:

>>don't know if you guys know much about
>>cockpits...but they aren't exactly air tight,
>>i.e. air gets in and so does sound. In real
>>life you Can Hear another plane in your area,
>>even over the sound of your own engine.

So, tell me oh out of context man.. what part do you feel is out of context? The Air Tight? The So does sound? The In real life you can hear? The even over the sound of? Bud it is what you said as you said it nothing added nothing removed!!! Nice try though!

- You put three of my posts together to prove
- your point

BOLD FACE LIE! Bud.. it is ALL FROM JUST ONE of your posts!!

- and then talk about throwing it "In my Face."

I didnt talk about it, you brought it up, I pointed out that I did a good job of it, after you said I didnt.

- The mere fact that you were out to do that proves
- your level of maturity is sub-standard.

Only thing it proves is your trying to re-track what you said... After I pointed out all the flaws in your IN-CONTEXT statments! Which aint the end of the world! Eveyone is wrong sometimes! The difference between sub-standard people with big ego's and normal people is normal people are man enough to admit it when they are wrong! As aposed to trying to make up things, state un-truths and or bold face lies to try and hide thier misstake(s).

- In your mind you will chalk it up to a victory...
- hey glad I could build up your self-esteem.

LOL!

- On a serious note, Children like you get
- posts locked.

LOL! Said the bold face lier

- This will be my Final post in this thread.

Promise? Oh no need.. Im sure it will be, because to go on will only prove you are liying.

- At some point everyone has to show integrity, now
- is my time.

Ah, Ok, so was the integrity part lying about me taking it out of context or lying about me useing stuff from three different posts when in fact it was cut and pasted in whole an in context from one?

- I don't know everything this is true, but the
- beauty of being human is the ability to learn
- from mistakes/misinformation/myth vs, truth.

True... and the adult part vs childish part is when you not only learn from them but are man enough to admit when you made a mistake.

- I'll have to ask Monroe about what he
- heard in his cockpit over the course of the war
- being that he flew both Thunderbolts and Mustangs.

Please do! It would be interesting! I just wonder how much of it we can trust being filtered from you in light of your bold face lie here in this thread?

- We can speculate all we want being that we weren't
- there, I guess to settle this for myself I will ask
- someone that was there themself.

Should have done that BEFORE you said... And I quote in full and in context

>>don't know if you guys know much about
>>cockpits...but they aren't exactly air tight,
>>i.e. air gets in and so does sound. In real
>>life you Can Hear another plane in your area,
>>even over the sound of your own engine.

Where you talked as if it was allready fact... Oh wait, was that you way of admiting you were wrong? In that now you admit you dont know for sure that

>>don't know if you guys know much about
>>cockpits...but they aren't exactly air tight,
>>i.e. air gets in and so does sound. In real
>>life you Can Hear another plane in your area,
>>even over the sound of your own engine.



TAGERT
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
If WAR was not the ANSWER.. Than what the H was your QUESTION?

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XyZspineZyX
08-09-2003, 06:23 PM
CSL_Kocour wrote:
- 5 - Yes, if a plane explodes in the air or on the
- ground its engine sound still stays in that place
- for some 15min.

Not to drift too far off topic, but this fact alone makes this thread perfect for ORR.


SSgt Tim Schuster
8MXS Inspection Section
Kunsan AB, Korea

-Defend the Forums!
-Accept Follow-on Patches and stuff!
-Take the Fight Online!

XyZspineZyX
08-09-2003, 06:29 PM
I'd like to see this topic stay at the top until we get a comment from Oleg http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif



*bump*

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adlabs6
08-09-2003, 08:36 PM
I'll add to this discussion with this... I have noticed this 'hear all ear' also. Just flying in very loose formation, and panning around with your mouse will show the size of the flaw as every detail of the outside world is audible over your engine (and through the circumaural close headphones on the pilot too!) It is not uncommon for me to hear my team mates online starting their engines (TICK!) from 3 or 4 kilometers away sometimes.

However, when I enable my EAX audio and configure it as directed in the readme file, the 'hear all' effect seems greatly reduced. The cockpit environment audio effects seems to drown out most of the outside world pretty well, even some gunfire is tough to hear (not my own of course). This may be different with other sound cards, though.

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XyZspineZyX
08-10-2003, 02:35 AM
found something else today that isnt right with the sound

was close behind a emil in my p40e, bout 100 - 150 yards

started firing and i could hear my bullets hitting his plane, it was loud enough that i thougt i was getting hit at first, but no tracers going by me and didnt see anything in my rearview mirror(which has saved my *** many times in FR servers)

well anyway i shot him down, and there was noone else nearby

also sometimes my guns still sound like they are firing even after i stop and they keep doing that untill i fire again

anyone else have that?

----------------------------------------
people need to lighten up, dont take stuff so serious, you dont want to give your self a heart attack do you?

XyZspineZyX
08-10-2003, 03:01 PM
Did not happen to me but sounds obviously need some more attention.

That´s the purpose of this thread - to collect votes and when it is obvious that majority of pilots is wishing for it we could dare ask for a change.

The main proposal is this: LET´S HAVE MORE REALISTIC SOUNDS

Which basically means: when flying with engine on and in rpms and being in the cockpit, the engine sound should drown everything else (for example - other plane´s engine sounds and other non realistic things like own bullets hiting another planes etc. etc.) except own guns shooting, enemy guns shooting from a very close distance, own plane being hit and big explosions in a close distance. But the main goal is to remove the "sonar" so that ppl would have to use their EYES only to maintain the SA - AS IT WAS BACK THEN IN THE WWII DAYS.

So please those who visit this thread, express your opinion whether you want this level of realism in sounds or not.

So far some about 20 pilots said they want this level of realism and about 5 pilots said they dont wan´t it.

Let´s wait some more and give as many ppl as possible a chance to say their´s.

Then we will see if our request is justified and deserves attention.

XyZspineZyX
08-10-2003, 03:33 PM
Better - lets remove distance attuneation from sound setting...
Than it is clear. I did not (and almost nobody from ppl who write something in this thread) fly any WW2 plane and have sbdy on my 6 to know, if we can hear it or not. There are too many unknows facts to say REMOVE SOUNDS form six, because sbdy from WW2 pilots say - i was hidden until i fire...
BTW Kocour, check votes once more - there are some sarcastic posts which you include (badly) to REMOVE answers /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

Regards


3 International Avia Polk
***** 3.IAP_CHARLIE *****

XyZspineZyX
08-10-2003, 03:44 PM
COLLIN_GRAY wrote:
- Better - lets remove distance attuneation from sound
- setting...

Ok?

- Than it is clear. I did not (and almost nobody from
- ppl who write something in this thread) fly any WW2
- plane and have sbdy on my 6 to know, if we can hear
- it or not.

Well there are some real pilots that have mentioned how noisy a modern aircraft is.. And they said you would not be able to hear someone on your six... But feel free to not take there word for it... There is a way to find out.. Not sure if anyone wants to take the time to do it, but there are people alive today who are younger than 45 years old that fly WWII aircraft with another WWII aircraft on thier six... *THEY* do it every year in moc dogifights at the air show. So, contact Steve Hinton at

http://www.planesoffame.org/

And see if he is not too busy to coment on this... Problem is Im sure he is too busy and really doesnt give a rats a$$ about it! /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

- There are too many unknows facts to say
- REMOVE SOUNDS form six, because sbdy from WW2 pilots
- say - i was hidden until i fire...

Emmm I dont know if I buy that... Ill tell you what I would buy... Find me ONE... just ONE WWII account where a guy SAYS he didnt SEE the aircraft on his SIX he HEARD it and thus reacted... I dont think you will find one... in but if you do, please post it here, and hopefully it will contain some referance to the distance.

- BTW Kocour, check votes once more - there are some
- sarcastic posts which you include (badly) to REMOVE

Just encase, put me down for removing it!


TAGERT
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XyZspineZyX
08-10-2003, 06:42 PM
i think people need not to judge what really happened in history by what they do, hear, or see in a game

i think that just might be the reason some people think stuff like this is right, because this game just couldnt be wrong



one more thing about how loud it is in planes, ive ridden in the 1930's trimotor's at eaa in oshkosh several times, both the stinson and the ford models

it is extremely loud inside

----------------------------------------
people need to lighten up, dont take stuff so serious, you dont want to give your self a heart attack do you?

XyZspineZyX
08-11-2003, 01:56 AM
bump

XyZspineZyX
08-11-2003, 01:44 PM
Thank you Tagert, I did what you said and asked at the right place (while there I asked one more question to try and settle another long drawn dispute):

http://www.planesoffame.org/_chatboard/000002f8.htm

http://www.planesoffame.org/_chatboard/000002f9.htm

Now is it clear to everyone?

So please...do we all want realistic sounds in Forgotten Battles to be able to use realistic tactics?

So, once more for all to vote:

Runing engine sound in cockpit totally overiding everything (mainly neighbouring planes engine sounds) except own gunnery, enemy gunnery, own plane being hit and big explosions...YES or NO?

It could be an option in realism settings...realistic sounds ON/OFF.

I am all for it.

XyZspineZyX
08-11-2003, 08:46 PM
definatly yes.

----------------------------------------
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At the start of WW2 the German army lacked experienced anti-aircraft gunners. The average gunner was so bad that the USSR decided to help them out. They did it by forcing some of their pilots to fly I-153 flak magnets. These planes were slow but very sturdy. This allowed German anti-aircraft gunners to get a large amount of target practice on a relatively small number of planes. Thanks to the Soviets help, by the end of the war the German anti-aircraft gunners were amoung the best in the world.
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XyZspineZyX
08-11-2003, 09:09 PM
official yes from me

----------------------------------------

XyZspineZyX
08-11-2003, 11:38 PM
Absolutely! I also think there's a problem with distances- I once heard an idling P-47 about 2000 meters higher up than me! And those prop whines carry perhaps a little too far.

Another issue is with open cockpits. The I-16 seems to be the only plane that does the sound right, with the whistling of wind and the loud "outdoor" sounds of your guns firing. All the other open 'pitters (p.11c, I-153) have no sound of air resistance and have muffled "indoor" gun sounds. It's a pretty big oversight.

***************************************

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XyZspineZyX
08-13-2003, 12:36 PM
and now post patch it's not solved,BUMP /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

XyZspineZyX
08-13-2003, 09:00 PM
REMOVE THE DAM* NOISE!

XyZspineZyX
08-14-2003, 07:07 AM
I think the sound is overdone. I am not an expert, but I dont hearing planes and guns that are 300 meters away louder then I can hear my own engine and guns. Also, if they were not able to hear planes from behind in real life, then it needs to be changed in the game.

XyZspineZyX
08-26-2003, 12:49 AM
I'm absolutely for turn off other sounds then guns and flak....


CSL_Kyza

XyZspineZyX
08-26-2003, 03:39 AM
CSL_Kocour wrote:
- Thank you Tagert, I did what you said and asked at
- the right place (while there I asked one more
- question to try and settle another long drawn
- dispute):

No problem!

- Now is it clear to everyone?

Crystal!

- So please...do we all want realistic sounds in
- Forgotten Battles to be able to use realistic
- tactics?
-
- So, once more for all to vote:
-
- Runing engine sound in cockpit totally overiding
- everything (mainly neighbouring planes engine
- sounds) except own gunnery, enemy gunnery, own plane
- being hit and big explosions...YES or NO?
-
- It could be an option in realism
- settings...realistic sounds ON/OFF.
-
- I am all for it.

In light of what was posted on the planes of fame board I think that it is safe to assume that you should not be able to hear an aircraft on your six.. Thus to be realistic it should be removed.. But to keep the masses (ie Quake DOOM types) happy make it an option! /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif



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XyZspineZyX
08-26-2003, 03:46 AM
Runing engine sound in cockpit totally overiding everything (mainly neighbouring planes engine sounds) except own gunnery, enemy gunnery, own plane being hit and big explosions...YES or NO?


I vote Yes to removing sounds that enable the detection of other planes.

But please consider making stall sounds adjustable in volume. It may not be realistic to hear your plane on the verge of stall but it could be felt and sound is a possible substitution for the lack of feedback.

JG14_Josf

XyZspineZyX
08-26-2003, 08:32 AM
I agree, and also it would be nice if the AI wasn't "all seeing", so that you could sneek up on them from behind and hide in clouds.

XyZspineZyX
08-26-2003, 09:29 AM
I have flown many different aircraft types, including warbirds in tight formation, and it was absolutely not possible to hear the other aircraft. I haven't had them fire guns in this situation, that may be another story, though I can't say. Getting hit by projectiles. . now that you would hear.

S!
TX-EcoDragon
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XyZspineZyX
08-26-2003, 11:29 AM
Yes. Engine sounds spoil the bounce.

However, it's pretty well established that the new sound system that came with the patch is utter crap. One can only hope that it's already fixed and we're just waiting for Ubi to get their rears in gear.

XyZspineZyX
08-26-2003, 11:43 AM
Thank you guys for your comments and opinions.

It is obvious from the data we had gathered, that having a "sonar" in this simulator is as serious offence to its realism as NOT having a sonar in a submarine simulator.

Pilots in WWII could hear only their own engine, own gunnery, enemy gunnery, projectiles hitting their planes and big explosions (not sure about stall buffeting, stressed frame creaking and slipstream hissing by the canopy...that would have to be answered by real pilots but none of these pose such a threat to combat realism as the "sonar")

The presence of so called "sonar" in this simulator deprives some planes of their only advantage and degrades their combat value to a fraction of what it would be with the "sonar" off and what it was in reality with the right tactics used.

Put simply: it should be possible to use a realistic tactics in a simulator that is claimed to be realistic and it is not possible now with the "sonar" present.

That makes me believe that we are right, for the sake of realism and on the grounds of how many of us voted for the "sonar" OFF, to propose this change and expect the "sonar" to be removed. It´s basically a bug that should be fixed and nothing else.

Lets hope that developers are of the same opinion and want to make their sim as realistic as possible. Removing the "sonar" IMO would be a big leap in the direction of maximum realism.

It would also be nice if the developers could comment on this issue here and let the "realism craving" fans of this sim know whether their dream about realistic sounds is ever gonna come true.


Thank you

CSL_Kocour

XyZspineZyX
08-26-2003, 11:49 AM
there's an option in sound setings which is attenuation...only sounds in FB are quirky to begin with. Needs more work.

XyZspineZyX
08-26-2003, 11:52 AM
hotdog_73 wrote:
- I agree, and also it would be nice if the AI wasn't
- "all seeing", so that you could sneek up on them
- from behind and hide in clouds.
-
-

Yes that too...AI should not hear you either and should fly straight if you come from their blind spot...there is nothing more awkward then a plane that does not see you ALWAYS starting an evasive maneuver exactly at the moment you put your sights on it...

They should also not see you in clouds...agreed

XyZspineZyX
08-26-2003, 11:53 AM
Did anyone try setting your attenuation=0 in your config. sound settings, as suggested earlier in this thread?


I tried last night and it seems to have greatly reduced the outside noise. At first I had this set at =7, then went higher trying to reduce the external noise, but contrary to what you might think turning it down is better.

please test, and let us know.


Widgeon



Message Edited on 08/26/0306:55AM by widgeon

XyZspineZyX
08-26-2003, 12:26 PM
Yes I fly with attenuation on 0 and I still hear engines of passing planes...which off course is wrong and unrealistic...still it does not bug me as much as my own engine being heard when I try to perform a surprise attack...that´s not only frustrating but also highly unrealistic as it prevents you from using the tactics that proved best in the real WWII...surprise attack was not only best and most effective tactics but also the most frequent cause of kill and majority of pilots shot down never knew what got them...this not being able to use what was used most often during WWII is quite a big bug in a WWII sim I would say

XyZspineZyX
08-26-2003, 02:51 PM
Agreed. Fix sound engine and remove sound from six for everyone.

Restore the bounce.

I guess this makes us BOUNCEWHINERS eh? /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif



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ZG77_Nagual
08-26-2003, 03:07 PM
Guys - as long as there are separate volume adjustments for internal and external noise this is going to be a problem. Best op would be to make audio settings part of the server setup.

http://pws.chartermi.net/~cmorey/pics/p47janes.jpg

XyZspineZyX
08-26-2003, 04:12 PM
In light of the new information provided by pilots/pasangers of real WWII aircraft... Has anyone filled out a bug report form and submitted it yet? If you do, include those links of the pilots/pasangers from the planes of fame who have been in real WWII aircraft as proof... Hmmm Ok which one of you dweebs is going to request a hearing test of those two pilots/pasangers? /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif



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XyZspineZyX
08-26-2003, 07:05 PM
bouncewhiner's unite

agreed again - spoils the bounce and is highly unrealistic

S!
609IAP_Recon

Forgotten Wars Virtual War
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XyZspineZyX
08-26-2003, 07:34 PM
rgr - welcome all to the Bouncewhiners´ club - let´s hope it will not last long and the swift removal of "sonar" will end its short existence - lets keep our fingers crossed http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

I have taken a look into the readme and it says there that:

...no wish lists, suggestions or FM speculations are accepted via that address, you should discuss these in the official UBI.com forum instead

so it seems there is not much point doing what Target suggested.

I don´t know thou, how we shall find out whether developpers heard our voices and whether they are planning to address this issue http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

Message Edited on 08/26/0306:45PM by CSL_Kocour

XyZspineZyX
08-26-2003, 07:59 PM
Hristos wrote:
-
- This takes away the immersion, as sound travels at
- 330 m/s roughly, right ?


Actually, it's 358.18 m/s.../i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif



http://home.earthlink.net/~aclzkim1/_uimages/p47atm.gif

XyZspineZyX
08-26-2003, 08:24 PM
CSL_Kocour wrote:
- not sure about stall
- buffeting, stressed frame creaking and slipstream
- hissing by the canopy...that would have to be
- answered by real pilots but none of these pose such
- a threat to combat realism as the "sonar")

These are also quite evident to the pilot (despite my aerobatic time however I have not heard a plane creaking, though the metal winged warbirds I have flown I did not take above a max of 4G)


As far as attenuation goes, unless the Server host could determine everyone's setting, then it wouldnt serve the purpose.


S!
TX-EcoDragon
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XyZspineZyX
08-26-2003, 08:29 PM
tagert wrote:
- COLLIN_GRAY wrote:
-- Better - lets remove distance attuneation from sound
-- setting...
-
- Ok?
-
-- Than it is clear. I did not (and almost nobody from
-- ppl who write something in this thread) fly any WW2
-- plane and have sbdy on my 6 to know, if we can hear
-- it or not.


I have posted, and I have flown a variety of WWII vintage warbirds, open cockpit and closed, from 250 hp to 2,250, in close formation (far closer than you would use for a firing solution) and agree that you should not hear another aircraft over your own in pretty much all situations.

S!
TX-EcoDragon
Black 1
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XyZspineZyX
08-26-2003, 11:38 PM
The_Blue_Devil wrote:
- I don't know if you guys know much about
- cockpits...but they aren't exactly air tight, i.e.
- air gets in and so does sound. In real life you Can
- Hear another plane in your area, even over the sound
- of your own engine. You can even hear when that
- plane fires it's guns, and you can d*mn sure hear
- when you get hit. This topic is really silly IMHO.
- Most of the attackers that got 50m behind their prey
- came from above swooping down idle..you don't need
- power in a dive from the high six. Like I said
- before, EXPERIENCE teaches. Idle your engine and he
- can't hear or see you, Power up after your pass.
- Not really rocket science.
-
- <center>------------------------------------------
- ----------------------------------</center>
- <center>[b]"Pilots who liked to dogifght could do it
- their own way. I avoided it. I always attacked at
- full speed and I evaded a bounce in the same manner.
- When you were hit from above and behind, and your
- attacker held his fire until he was really close,
- you knew you were in with someone who had a great
- deal of experience.-Erich Hartmann"[b]</center>
-
-
- <center> <img
- src=http://www.angelfire.lycos.com/art2/devilart/M
- ySig.gif> </center>
-
-
-
- Message Edited on 08/07/03 05:52PM by
- The_Blue_Devil

http://fw190.hobbyvista.com/Afrika.htm
Check this link and find out that even with the engine on you don't hear a thing untill is too late.

XyZspineZyX
08-27-2003, 04:41 AM
CSL_Kocour wrote:
- I have taken a look into the readme and it says
- there that:
-
- ...no wish lists, suggestions or FM speculations are
- accepted via that address, you should discuss these
- in the official UBI.com forum instead
-
- so it seems there is not much point doing what
- Target suggested.

Well.. of those three wich do you think it falls under? It is not a *wish*, nor a *suggestion*, and it is defintally not *FM* realted.. it is simply a BUG. You should not be able to hear an aircraft comming up on your six..

I think everyone but *The_Blue_Devil* agrees... Which is not what I would consider proof.. But we have real pilots and pilots of actually WWII aircraft that have said it is not realistic.. Granted, there is a small chance that these pilots all have really bad hearing.. But come on, which one of you dweebs is going to run that flag up the poll? That and the lack of anyone posting an account of a WWII pilot saying he check his six when he heard the aircraft. It's a bug.. if you dont want to fill it out, let me know, Ill do it, I just didnt want to take credit for something you worked so hard for.





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XyZspineZyX
08-27-2003, 09:03 AM
theres many cases of 190s jugs and la5s and many other large radial engined a/c being able to hear ground fire from troops, and thats with the loudest fighter engines and them listening to the radio.

b17 one of the loudest a/c can hear 190s and 109s from a distance.


if you watch reno races of p51s jugs yaks you can hear the engines of planes behind or passing thru cockpit audio so no it doesnt spoil the bounce at all its realistic


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Good dogfighters bring ammo home, Great ones don't. (c) Leadspitter

XyZspineZyX
08-27-2003, 10:07 AM
I was thinking about this poll and spoiled bounce topic and was flying online all the time trying to bounce planes and most of them say: "I was lucky I heard his engine..." and I was still thinking about it and the "sonar" and I came to this:

What would Erich Hartmann say if we asked him whether he would fight in IL2/Forgotten Battles flight sim?

He would probably ask one simple question: Will I be able to use my favourite tactics in this sim? Will I be able to get TEN metres behind enemy then carefully aim and pump them full of lead so that I woul never need another pass?

And the answer would unfortunatelly be: NO! Planes have "sonar" in this simulator and can hear you from 700m away to 300m away depending on what attenuation they have set in their ini files.

And he would probably smile and say: Sorry but what is the point flying a WWII combat sim in which planes have "sonar"?

I daresay Erich Hartmann would most likely not want to fly FB the reason being the "sonar" issue.

And that is something I would not be happy about being a WWII sim developer.


Check out this link:

http://www.simhq.com/_air/air_065a.html

It is preceded by this sentence:

Finally an article to help people get this game (IL2/FB) in perspective...

The article is called A Reality Check...go to the paragraph called a Tactical conclusions:

...In order to be successful against the La5FN the Bf109G10 driver would either need to achieve an element of surprise in order to bounce the La5FN, or to secure a significant positional or energy advantage prior to the engagement...

That´s all true and very real but when it comes to the other side...no u can not bounce La5fn nor any other plane in any other plane...because planes have "sonar" in FB.

Erich Hartmann would be sadly right: There is actually really very little point in flying a WWII sim in which planes have "sonar".

This sim is loosing its point for me with every other plane that detects my presence by "sonar". It is probably its biggest offence against realism.

Yes people are lazy and dont want to fly zig-zag and check their six every couple seconds (as was common back in the WWII days)...lets have sonar that does that for us right? But then dont say you fly in a realistic WWII combat flight sim. IT IS NOT TRUE (YET).

Taken from the Leon "Badboy" Smith´s perpective the "sonar" in FB is really a bug and yes Tagert, you are right, I will report it as such...NOW.

Message Edited on 08/28/0305:38PM by CSL_Kocour

XyZspineZyX
08-27-2003, 10:51 AM
I agree, remove the sound radar!

XyZspineZyX
08-27-2003, 06:41 PM
I agree 500% on this. If I´m correct, the reason why they altered the sound engine in FB from what it was in IL2 was
- yes guess what - the "all-hearing-radar-ear"! This lead to an enormous pile of sound related bugs which have taken a lot of the fun out of the game - I´m not playing FB at the moment & will not take it up again before sound is fixed (nor would I recommend it to anyone). Now, in original IL2 there was a feature called "realistic occlusions" in the sound setup which made the player less able to hear objects outside the cockpit.

My suggestion would be to reimplement the old sound from IL2 (with tracer sound in externals & all) & then make "realistic occlusions" or simply "realistic sound" a feature in the realism setting panel. How´s that?

S!

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XyZspineZyX
08-27-2003, 10:38 PM
LeadSpitter_ wrote:
- theres many cases of 190s jugs and la5s and many
- other large radial engined a/c being able to hear
- ground fire from troops, and thats with the loudest
- fighter engines and them listening to the radio.
-
- b17 one of the loudest a/c can hear 190s and 109s
- from a distance.
-
-
- if you watch reno races of p51s jugs yaks you can
- hear the engines of planes behind or passing thru
- cockpit audio so no it doesnt spoil the bounce at
- all its realistic


Wrong as usual Leadspitter. At least you're predictable.







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XyZspineZyX
08-28-2003, 03:27 AM
your wrong prik you loser watch some video and listen to audio clips you friggen retart *** thinking you know everything abotu everything. YOU ARE WRONG


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Good dogfighters bring ammo home, Great ones don't. (c) Leadspitter

XyZspineZyX
08-28-2003, 11:05 AM
Leadspitter can you give us a link to a site where such videoclips can be downloaded so that we know what you are talking about?

And why do you think this guy would write this:

"I've been fortunate to fly in several of the museum's aircraft, often in formation. A Wright, Merlin or Allison produces a tremedous din! A few years ago I was stuffed in what passes for the back seat of our P-38. I had a spectacular view of the back of Steve's helmet! When I turned my head, I was totally surprised to find a Yak 11 flying our wing! Beleive me, you can barely hear yourself think over a warbird engine, let alone hear another aircraft!"

???

http://www.planesoffame.org/_chatboard/000002f8.htm

And why do you think that all aces taught their pupils to get as close as possible and hold their fire?

Why do you think pilots had to fly zig-zag and uncover their blind spots every couple seconds?

Don´t you think that if real pilots back in WWII really had the "sonar" we have here in FB it would make all this behaviour unnecessary?

XyZspineZyX
08-28-2003, 04:24 PM
CSL_Kocour wrote:
- Leadspitter can you give us a link to a site where
- such videoclips can be downloaded so that we know
- what you are talking about?
-
- And why do you think this guy would write this:
-
- "I've been fortunate to fly in several of the
- museum's aircraft, often in formation. A Wright,
- Merlin or Allison produces a tremedous din! A few
- years ago I was stuffed in what passes for the back
- seat of our P-38. I had a spectacular view of the
- back of Steve's helmet! When I turned my head, I was
- totally surprised to find a Yak 11 flying our wing!
- Beleive me, you can barely hear yourself think over
- a warbird engine, let alone hear another aircraft!"
-
- ???
-
- http://www.planesoffame.org/_chatboard/000002f8.htm" (http://www.planesoffame.org/_chatboard/000002f8.htm)
-
- And why do you think that all aces taught their
- pupils to get as close as possible and hold their
- fire?
-
- Why do you think pilots had to fly zig-zag and
- uncover their blind spots every couple seconds?
-
- Don´t you think that if real pilots back in WWII
- really had the "sonar" we have here in FB it would
- make all this behaviour unnecessary?

If that summary does not work for Leadspitter, Blue Devil, and the rest... Then no amout ever will. Good news is I belive that summary would be all the proof Oleg and the team would need to make a change. Now we just need to make sure they get it... File/Submit a BUG report and presented this summary as the proof. PLEASE! /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif


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Message Edited on 08/28/0308:27AM by tagert

XyZspineZyX
08-28-2003, 06:36 PM
I did so yesterday allready Tagert http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif Read up http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

It´s your turn now to go down on ur knees and pray real hard! And don´t cheat on it! Neither I do! http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Cuz I won´t need MY knees once the boring "sonar" is gone...all I will do will be sitting - flyin FB and finally really enjoying the sim http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif))

YES...BORING is the right word...the "sonar" makes IL2/FB boring...I am bored by flying up there and waiting for a prey that would "outsonar" me in most cases before I get close enough for a shot...its boringly unrealistic

The "sonar" is actually the last obstacle on the way to the hardcore immersion I am after...only after the sonar is gone ppl will have a chance to get a glimpse of what fear the real pilots could have felt up there not knowing if they will live another second...and I mean ALL FB PILOTS not only some!

,,,^..^,,,

XyZspineZyX
08-28-2003, 07:15 PM
CSL_Kocour wrote:
- I did so yesterday allready Tagert /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif Read up /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

Ah good news!

- It´s your turn now to go down on ur knees and pray
- real hard! And don´t cheat on it! Neither I do! /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

LOL!

- Cuz I won´t need MY knees once the boring "sonar" is
- gone...all I will do will be sitting - flyin FB and
- finally really enjoying the sim /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif ))

Even if it dont get fixed, there is still alot to be enjoyed... If it does get fixed, the next prob will be trying to find a non-arcade game on Hyperlobby... Lately all I have been seeing is Quake style fur balls where the bases are close enough that you can see the enmy taking off from their base as you are taking off from yours.. Funny thing about that is... As Quake is it is.. They still whinne with you vultch someone and they dont like jets? I guess it makes the *feel* real! /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

- YES...BORING is the right word...the "sonar" makes
- IL2/FB boring...I am bored by flying up there and
- waiting for a prey that would "outsonar" me in most
- cases before I get close enough for a shot...its
- boringly unrealistic

Well.. there is still alot of good in there... fixing this will only make it better.

- The "sonar" is actually the last obstacle on the way
- to the hardcore immersion I am after...

Last until the Next! /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

- only after
- the sonar is gone ppl will have a chance to get a
- glimpse of what fear the real pilots could have felt
- up there not knowing if they will live another
- second...and I mean ALL FB PILOTS not only some!

Agreed 100%! It will force them to use more realistic tatics and thus make the whole arena more realistic and thus improve the imersion for all... IMHO! /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif Im sure the Quake and DOOM folks will disagree!





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XyZspineZyX
08-28-2003, 08:06 PM
-- The "sonar" is actually the last obstacle on the way
-- to the hardcore immersion I am after...
-
- Last until the Next! /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

Well...the immersion will only start with the sonar gone and what comes next is welcome cuz realism=immersion IMO...but the first step is yet to be taken /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

XyZspineZyX
08-28-2003, 08:56 PM
"Believe me when a P-47 fired it's guns everything within a mile Plus knew about it"


I don't believe this at all.

If you want to show me some literature, I'd be happy to change my opinion.

S!
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XyZspineZyX
08-28-2003, 09:26 PM
To true. Very unrealistic. Chaulk this one up next to the over modeled muzzle flash.

Leutnant Jaeger, Jagdgeschwader 3 "Udet" I/Gruppe

XyZspineZyX
08-28-2003, 10:32 PM
buy some airracing videos, "Reno Air racing" is one that i own that i notice it alot in and many airshows have in cockpit audio and video of joining formations. Good quality dat recordings.


http://mysite.verizon.net/vze4jz7i/ls.gif

Good dogfighters bring ammo home, Great ones don't. (c) Leadspitter

XyZspineZyX
08-28-2003, 11:03 PM
Bud Anderson in the book "To Fly and Fight"

p.87:

"Once, I actually was able to follow the lead ship's bombs all the way to the ground, until they crashed through an aircraft hangar dead-center. In the movies, they always make a karuump! but it wasn't like that at all. This was no "talkie". From the stratosphere, all you could hear over the song of your engine were your own guns chattering, and sometimes anti-aircraft shells bursting. Anytime you heard those, they were too god()amn close"



I'll find more of this stuff - it's all over the place

S!
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XyZspineZyX
08-29-2003, 12:29 AM
Thank you Recon...

Please find more but I think it is more than obvious allready...

There was no "sonar" back in WWII...please lets get rid of it in FB as well

XyZspineZyX
08-29-2003, 12:36 AM
LeadSpitter_ wrote:
- buy some airracing videos, "Reno Air racing" is one
- that i own that i notice it alot in and many
- airshows have in cockpit audio and video of joining
- formations. Good quality dat recordings.

That is your proof? Maybe I dont understand what it is your saying.. Are you saying that modern reno racers are making in cockpit videos to sell to the general public?

Interesting...

Let's assume that even they couldnt hear the engines of other planes... If so.. Those recordings wouldnt sound too good.. Pun intended.. So... Are you absolutly sure that no one *added* sound to the video post race? Wouldnt be the first time HOLLYWOOD tatics messed up history. /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

To be honest.. I *feel* that up close formation flying... real up close you would probally be able to hear a little bit.. But in war, that would be too late! /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif



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XyZspineZyX
08-29-2003, 12:44 AM
I'd like to add:

The 'engine idle' during bounce, was not for running yourself in "silent mode" so the enemy cannot hear you. It was just a mandatory part of combat management to avoid too high a rate of closure, collisions, and overspeed and etc. In most parts when the alt advantage of the attacker wasn't too high the pilots would just approach with full throttle anyway, extending away after the attack.

The 'engine idle' for 'silent mode' is a completely reversed logic which derives from many games which exaggerate ambient sound - ie. experienced pilots in games would sometimes have their own tidbits of habit such as turning off engines during rolling scissors, turning off engine during bounce, gears down and full flaps to force super low-speed overshoots and etc.etc. Most likely this, mistakenly influenced people to think that it was a real life tactic to do so.

As it stands, it's not much different from the "trim-initiated bat-turn" - a good technique in game, bogus in reality.







-----------
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XyZspineZyX
08-29-2003, 04:41 AM
You can certainly hear a Tu-95 Bear from inside the cockpit or cabin of another plane. 32 supersonic propeller tips tend to make quite a racket.

XyZspineZyX
08-29-2003, 04:53 AM
Baloban wrote:
- You can certainly hear a Tu-95 Bear from inside the
- cockpit or cabin of another plane. 32 supersonic
- propeller tips tend to make quite a racket.

You can also hear, see and feel a volcano errupting from inside the cockpit or cabin of another plane.. but sense it is not modeled in the sim it dont reall mater! /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif



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XyZspineZyX
08-29-2003, 03:16 PM
tagert wrote:
- Baloban wrote:
-- You can certainly hear a Tu-95 Bear from inside the
-- cockpit or cabin of another plane. 32 supersonic
-- propeller tips tend to make quite a racket.
-
- You can also hear, see and feel a volcano errupting
- from inside the cockpit or cabin of another plane..
- but sense it is not modeled in the sim it dont reall
- mater! /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif
-

LOL!

I believe you would also likely be able to hear a small tactical nuke going off within your general vicinity as well.

Baloban is now Master of the ObviousT

/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif



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XyZspineZyX
08-29-2003, 04:02 PM
bump

S!
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XyZspineZyX
08-29-2003, 04:23 PM
Remove the unrealistic sonar please.

XyZspineZyX
08-29-2003, 06:31 PM
tolwyn.com wrote:
- Big Bump.
-
- And not only the "all hearing ear," but also the
- "all seeing eye."
-
- Let me quickly hijack this post:
-
- External View with Padlock should be an option.
-
- I like External View
- I don't mind Padlock
-
- But both of them together make "bouncing"
- impossible, too.
-
-


I do it all the time



<center><FONT COLOR="white">ӚFJ-M œ R D ˜ ӡ[/i]</font>

<center> http://www.onpoi.net/ah/pics/users/ah_109_1059752328.jpg </center>

<center><FONT COLOR="white">The "Ace Edge"(c).
With my incremental trim
I am actually able to turn so quickly that, I never turn at all.
In Fact the Planet Earth rotates around the Axis of My PC, thus giving me the optimum turn rate and insuring that you
the bandit are promptly fraged !!!
In memory Of Ray R.I.P.[/i]</font>

XyZspineZyX
08-29-2003, 06:37 PM
The_Blue_Devil wrote:
- I don't know if you guys know much about
- cockpits...but they aren't exactly air tight, i.e.
- air gets in and so does sound. In real life you Can
- Hear another plane in your area, even over the sound
- of your own engine. You can even hear when that
- plane fires it's guns, and you can d*mn sure hear
- when you get hit. This topic is really silly IMHO.
- Most of the attackers that got 50m behind their prey
- came from above swooping down idle..you don't need
- power in a dive from the high six. Like I said
- before, EXPERIENCE teaches. Idle your engine and he
- can't hear or see you, Power up after your pass.
- Not really rocket science.
-


This is a smart man you should listen too him

Stop Messing with the Broken sound !!!! or its gona get worse !!!

Oleg Please if you do anything just fix the sound with EAX optimization Less ECHO in the Pit !!!

<center><FONT COLOR="white">ӚFJ-M œ R D ˜ ӡ[/i]</font>

<center> http://www.onpoi.net/ah/pics/users/ah_109_1059752328.jpg </center>

<center><FONT COLOR="white">The "Ace Edge"(c).
With my incremental trim
I am actually able to turn so quickly that, I never turn at all.
In Fact the Planet Earth rotates around the Axis of My PC, thus giving me the optimum turn rate and insuring that you
the bandit are promptly fraged !!!
In memory Of Ray R.I.P.[/i]</font>

XyZspineZyX
08-29-2003, 07:09 PM
Guys,
I just emailed an aquaintance who flys a Yak3 regularly, to ask him if he can hear the Seafury (he flys manouvers with)'s engine from his cockpit.
Having heard the noise both make, I doubt if either can hear the other.
But I'll post his response.
FWIW You can hear the pneumatic gear retraction whistle over the engine. So thats one sound we miss in FB.
Sulky

XyZspineZyX
08-29-2003, 11:22 PM
AFJ_Murdoc wrote:
- This is a smart man you should listen too him

Negative Ghost Rider! You should listen to him too.. The parts where he basically tryed to retract what he said there.

- Stop Messing with the Broken sound !!!! or its gona
- get worse !!!

If it aint broke dont fix it.. Problem is it aint not broke.

- Oleg Please if you do anything just fix the sound
- with EAX optimization Less ECHO in the Pit !!!

Only if you have time left after fixing the sonar bug... By sonar I mean hearing an aircraft a mile away sniking up on your six.. ie not the ones your so close to you can read the *no step* text on the side of thier ac.





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XyZspineZyX
08-30-2003, 02:53 AM
kweassa wrote:
-
- A 2000hp engine with approx. 100db noise at 200~300
- meters away.
-
-
- A 2000hp engine with approx. 100db noise 2 feet
- away.
-
-
- ..
-
-
- Which will sound louder?


Like that...and not only louder...you will not percept it...see all the links so far...sneaking 5 metres below an enemys belly without being heard...thats how it was in reality and thats my dream too...

XyZspineZyX
08-30-2003, 06:13 PM
I vote, make as an option.

Philips CDRW

Posting vacuous messages since 2002

XyZspineZyX
08-31-2003, 10:57 AM
For the sake of keeping Olegs Ready Room tidy, readable and useful to all please stick to One Thread For One Topic! Multiple threads at best dilute the topic you are discussing.

Please continue here:
http://forums.ubi.com/messages/message_view-topic.asp?name=Olegmaddoxreadyroom&id=zuvmb

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