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View Full Version : Buying stock in tin foil hats - who is with me!?



CUJO_1970
10-07-2007, 05:52 PM
I don't post much here anymore, but I've been here from the start. I remember Blue Byte and the little demo video Oleg released of the La5 attacking a group of Ju-88s, before the original IL/2 hit the shelf at CompUSA. Not even HL2 inspired as much anticipation for me as the release of this little gem.

That being said, I find the reaction of many here regarding an unnofficial sound mod to this 9 year old flight sim to be downright whack-o. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/53.gif

You'd think we were discussing national security here instead of a better sounding Messerschmitt.

I'm as addicted to this sim as anyone, but my advice to some of you "sky - is - falling" folks is to simply back away from your monitor, get up and go outside. Go for a walk. Breathe. It's just plain silly people.

Let's face it: Oleg doesn't talk to us anymore. But I would say in true Oleg fashion(I'm sure he's got his reasons - whatever they are)about 10 minutes before everyone(myself included) gives up on this series completely, 4.09 will be realeased. Along with an amazing new BoB update. And all will be well.

And no - for the record - I definintely do not believe that the death knell for online flying is heralded by this sound mod, legal or not.

Now, does anyone have that number to Fidelity Investments handy? I have inside information that Reynold's Wrap shares are about to split http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/winky.gif

R_Target
10-07-2007, 06:07 PM
Originally posted by CUJO_1970:
That being said, I find the reaction of many here regarding an unnofficial sound mod to this 9 year old flight sim to be downright whack-o. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/53.gif

Ditto.

LEXX_Luthor
10-07-2007, 06:08 PM
I don't even have sound on my computer -- well I do have the little beeper speaker.

Sound in a combat flight The Sim always seemed geeky to me ... pretty much all you hear is engine, okay maybe a P-51Dora wing snapping off hehe.

I have radio and CD player for sound to JAM while I play the game -- it helps me relax during The Dogfight woof woof.

heywooood
10-07-2007, 06:08 PM
I don't think it matters what kindof hack you are discussing...its about hacking someone elses property - the intellectual property - the ownership of which is not sold with a copy of the game...

So what is legal or illegal about it is not dependant on the type of hack it is - hacking this game is not legal - and to further exacerbate the crime by crowing about it here - in front of the owners of the property is adding insult to injury.

Hackers have delayed the release of the last planned addon as well as caused delays now for the new simulation.

Thanks for playing...go read a book about software piracy and intellectual property and the law and then you will know that just because a few people like the hacks doesn't make it all right.

one more thing that gets lost in all this is the added cost on the front end for these developers and the added risk to investment that the distributors are facing...

If a developer could spend x dollars making his software and not have to add many more hours and thousands of dollars on encryption and the distributors didn't have to add increasing amounts of money on security software etc..we might have a lot more sims onth market than we do now.
Soon the cost of preventing or even trying to control this kind of damage will be prohibitive.

Spinnetti
10-07-2007, 06:16 PM
Funny.. I couldda wrote that http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

"help! the sky is falling!"...

What a bunch of whiners.... PS, The FW190 is my favorite plane (just crashed my R/C Fw190 tonight on an inverted pass), and I have my investments through Fidelity http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

R_Target
10-07-2007, 06:26 PM
I didn't see anybody defending Northrop-Grumman's intellectual property.

Scharnhorst1943
10-07-2007, 06:57 PM
Originally posted by R_Target:
I didn't see anybody defending Northrop-Grumman's intellectual property.

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/agreepost.gifhttp://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/351.gif

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/clap.gif

SeaFireLIV
10-07-2007, 07:01 PM
I do see a slight frenzied craziness about all this. Yes, I don`t want IL2 hacked, i don`t want the 1% changing FMs and DMS and bullet calibres. For online I want it set to ONE trusted group.

However, the panic over this soundmod which IL2 sourly needs seems a little over the top. What`s wrong with a good sound mod enhancing immersiveness offline?

But... If a little innocent soundmod is accepted, then whatt else? If the little hole in the dam that does no harm is allowed to flow it may become a flood and do great harm.

On the one hand I really want the mod that makes my I16 gun sound like proper guns, and on the other hand I don`t want hacks to destroy IL2.

But then, this is why I always championed the offline component of any sim. You cannot keep the hacks away forever, it`s impossible.

Solution: Show Oleg the `Mod` and get him to incorporate similar additions to creating good sound for aircraft in IL2. Personally, if someone makes a mod that enhances and improves the sound of IL2 without making cash from the sim then it`s actually helping towards Oleg, not taking away.

We`re able to edit VOICES, why not other sounds? Oleg should pop in 4.09 the ability to change engine and bullet, etc sounds the same way we can voices and music in samples.

Of course, it won`t halt the fact that CHEAT hacking will probably permeate into online games and that`s the real sad part of it. You can`t get the good without the bad online.

I guess that`s why a lot of people don`t want anything to come out of it all. Better to keep the gate closed eh?

LEXX_Luthor
10-07-2007, 07:15 PM
SeaFire::
Of course, it won`t halt the fact that CHEAT hacking will probably permeate into online games and that`s the real sad part of it. You can`t get the good without the bad online.
Yes you can. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/touche.gif

A trusted group. Think of the people you prefer to hang out with in "real life." Do you hang out with everybody who shows up? Of course not. turnipkiller said it best in the Mods thread, page 4...

turnipkiller::
Well I've not played online for a long time but I wonder what the huge deal is. Personally, I used to fly in certain servers where I knew most of the people. After a time, I knew that they wouldn't cheat, and they knew that I wouldn't cheat (I hope! lol).
Even with the game being the same for all players before the apocalyptic event of recent days, there were servers that just seemed to have all the *******s on them. And I suspect that those same servers will still have the *******s, just with their tweaked FM's etc.
The servers where everyone knows everyone else, and people are there to just have a good time without the need for cheating probably won't change. There will probably be the odd ******* coming into said server, but that's why there is the ability to kick such a person.

There is no point in saying it's bad or good. It has been hacked and that is that. But in my own humble opinion, it won't affect things as much as people are making it seem it will.


SeaFire::
For online I want it set to ONE trusted group. http://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d178/Lexx_Luthor/Smileys/thumbs.gif

BerkshireHunt
10-07-2007, 07:18 PM
Originally posted by heywooood:
I don't think it matters what kindof hack you are discussing...its about hacking someone elses property - the intellectual property - the ownership of which is not sold with a copy of the game...

So what is legal or illegal about it is not dependant on the type of hack it is - hacking this game is not legal - and to further exacerbate the crime by crowing about it here - in front of the owners of the property is adding insult to injury.
-------------------------------

That is of concern only to the person who did the hacking in the first place (certainly not to any of us). We know he is a Russian - and we also know that Russia is notoriously lax in enforcing any kind of copyright/intellectual property law. He - whoever he is - will sleep soundly in his bed tonight and every night, secure in the knowledge that the FSB are not about to come knocking. Furthermore, he cannot be extradited because Russian law does not allow its citizens to be sent for trial in foreign lands (bad luck Ubi - not that you care).
All IL2 hacks have originated in Russia, but 1C (the Russian publisher) has done nothing about it. If you wish to defend your property, it is incumbent on you to take reasonable steps in that regard. (Not just issue a EULA, which simply makes claims that have to be tested in law, case by case).
How many Russians have been prosecuted for hacking Oleg's code? Answer: none.
It seems therefore that the publishers aren't actually that bothered by what happens to the code of a flight sim game that sells in very small numbers.

------------------------------------

Hackers have delayed the release of the last planned addon as well as caused delays now for the new simulation.
------------------------------------

I keep seeing this claim, but have yet to see the evidence on which its based. Where can I find it?

------------------------------------

one more thing that gets lost in all this is the added cost on the front end for these developers and the added risk to investment that the distributors are facing...

If a developer could spend x dollars making his software and not have to add many more hours and thousands of dollars on encryption and the distributors didn't have to add increasing amounts of money on security software etc..we might have a lot more sims onth market than we do now.
Soon the cost of preventing or even trying to control this kind of damage will be prohibitive.
---------------------------------

That's a very good point. It may indeed become so expensive that developers will walk away from supporting online play. But I don't care much. Online is for people who think 'history' is a Michael Jackson album.

heywooood
10-07-2007, 07:23 PM
sure - if the sim was intended to be open from the start there would be no question - but you can't have it both ways...

You can't say - "thats a good hack - I'll download it and yap about it to Oleg and co...but that other hack - that speed hack or that gun hack is wrong"

Either the game is open and you mod it - or its closed and you're not welcome to change or modify it - it is someone elses property.

How would it be if you (those who are touting and lauding these hacks) were the ones who created and owned the Il2 franchise and you were reading non stop about hacks and cheats and finding your work on torrent sites every day - complete and free - stolen and altered by these people.

I think you (those who are touting and lauding these hacks I mean) would want to fight to protect your property, or you might say I can't afford to lose this money - I'm out.

The sky isn't falling - its being pulled down piece by piece....its like a thousand little cuts - eventually you bleed to death.

If you are a modder or an enthusiast of flight sims and you have talent - apply for a job with a legitimate company and get paid. Don't hack into someone elses hard work and expect praise from everyone - some people still have respect for an honest days work.

gdfo
10-07-2007, 07:32 PM
WTF does Grumman have to do with hacking the game that so many of us have paid for???

The specifications of Grumman aircraft that were flown over 60 years ago are public knowledge.

What does HACKING the game have to do with that???

So some amoral russian gets his rocks off by reverse engineering a game, how about the 'russians' paying back the WW2 Allies for everthing that was sent to them to help them during the war. HMMMM??
This kind of hack can destroy the crediblity of
IL-2 AND BOB. Who wants to spend money on a HACKED game? Who want to spend money on a PC upgrade to spend money on a potential game if you know ahead of time that some S.O.B is gonna hack it and spread it around.

Taylortony
10-07-2007, 07:38 PM
For your info, several companies demanded royalties for the aircraft in the game, indeed all games, models etc, even the RAF roundel is copyrighted...... that was the reason the B29 never made it to being a flyer....... touchy subject so do a search in the forum and you will find more..

When the likes of Hasagawa make a model they have to pay literally hundreds of thousands in royalties..
There is a bill going through the USA that will hopefully correct this, the US Gov are saying if it was built for us then and we paid for it,s development etc which they did then they own the rights and the issue of royalties will be dropped.

MrMojok
10-07-2007, 07:49 PM
It's obvious to anyone who has part of a brain that it absolutely will not end with modifying the sounds. Every single one of you knows that anyone who can modify the sounds can, and will, modify other things.

Some people just don't care. In fact, I am fast becoming convinced that some particular individuals welcome the idea of a "hacked" IL2 because it will make it a lot easier to pull the **** online that they've already been pulling for years now. It's a lot easier to disappear into the background when there are more people doing it online.

Call me a conspiracy theorist or tinfoil hat-wearer, whatever. At least two or three people on this forum are going to read this and know exactly what I'm talking about.

LW_lcarp
10-07-2007, 07:52 PM
Originally posted by gdfo:
WTF does Grumman have to do with hacking the game that so many of us have paid for???

The specifications of Grumman aircraft that were flown over 60 years ago are public knowledge.

What does HACKING the game have to do with that???


AH you must of not been here when Pacific Fighters first came out.

UBI placed on the box covers the actual name of the companies that produced the F6F F4U SBD and so on. Well Grumman Northrop came after UBI for using their names on UBIs product. Well UBI went after 1c for the money to cover UBIs flockup. So it basically boiled down to N/G sueing over intelecually property. So throwing that arguement out is sort of a moot point as they had no scuples in using someone elses property for there own gain.

And to top it off the guy that cracked the code isnt getting paid for what he did

ElAurens
10-07-2007, 07:57 PM
Understand completely MrMojok.

My list of people that I thought were trustworthy on this forum has shrunk considerably the last few days.

heywooood
10-07-2007, 08:06 PM
AH you must of not been here when Pacific Fighters first came out.

UBI placed on the box covers the actual name of the companies that produced the F6F F4U SBD and so on. Well Grumman Northrop came after UBI for using their names on UBIs product. Well UBI went after 1c for the money to cover UBIs flockup. So it basically boiled down to N/G sueing over intelecually property. So throwing that arguement out is sort of a moot point as they had no scuples in using someone elses property for there own gain.

And to top it off the guy that cracked the code isnt getting paid for what he did

-----------------------------------------------


Umm - they sued for the use of the names of the companies - not the use of the likenesses of the equipment....They can call it an Avenger on the cover - they can't call it a Northrop Grumman Avenger or use any part of that corporate name without permission or payment.

And if the guy - the one guy lol - that is doing these hax isn't smart enough to work for money and you think thats a good thing then you and he are on equally stupid footing...in reality though - if he hasn't been paid yet, he is working on that and with all the free advertising you guys are giving him it wont be long before he takes a nice payday from someone for what he has learned/stolen/hacked be certain, or you are more naive than anyone that was born this morning.

R_Target
10-07-2007, 08:15 PM
Originally posted by gdfo:
WTF does Grumman have to do with hacking the game that so many of us have paid for???

The specifications of Grumman aircraft that were flown over 60 years ago are public knowledge.

What does HACKING the game have to do with that???


You missed my point.


Originally posted by Taylortony:
For your info, several companies demanded royalties for the aircraft in the game, indeed all games, models etc, even the RAF roundel is copyrighted...... that was the reason the B29 never made it to being a flyer....... touchy subject so do a search in the forum and you will find more..

You missed my point too. And there's no need for me to search. I was here.

Taylortony
10-07-2007, 08:24 PM
http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/34.giferr if you look at my post and the quote above it, you were missing the point LOL http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/59.gif as I was replying to GDFO's query in the post above who wasn't here at the time http://media.ubi.com/us/forum_images/gf-glomp.gif

DKoor
10-07-2007, 08:32 PM
Originally posted by MrMojok:
It's obvious to anyone who has part of a brain that it absolutely will not end with modifying the sounds. Every single one of you knows that anyone who can modify the sounds can, and will, modify other things.

Some people just don't care. In fact, I am fast becoming convinced that some particular individuals welcome the idea of a "hacked" IL2 because it will make it a lot easier to pull the **** online that they've already been pulling for years now. It's a lot easier to disappear into the background when there are more people doing it online.

Call me a conspiracy theorist or tinfoil hat-wearer, whatever. At least two or three people on this forum are going to read this and know exactly what I'm talking about. I understand and I agree with you.

On the other hand, it really seems that this simulation is a beast on its own for now.

R_Target
10-07-2007, 08:40 PM
Originally posted by Taylortony:
http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/34.giferr if you look at my post and the quote above it, you were missing the point LOL http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/59.gif as I was replying to GDFO's query in the post above who wasn't here at the time http://media.ubi.com/us/forum_images/gf-glomp.gif

Yeah, I did. I guess I jumped the gun a little. Sorry about that. http://media.ubi.com/us/forum_images/gf-glomp.gif http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

FWIW, I guess I'm vaguely in agreement with the people that don't want the game to be modified or haxxed or whatever, but I wish people would just come out and say "this hacking will ruin my fun" instead of clothing it in a bunch of high-minded sanctimony about intellectual property rights.

AFJ_rsm
10-07-2007, 09:02 PM
Originally posted by R_Target:
I didn't see anybody defending Northrop-Grumman's intellectual property.


LOL

That's the FIRST time I've got an audible snicker from this forum.

You, sir, win at the internet!

AFJ_rsm
10-07-2007, 09:03 PM
Originally posted by R_Target:

FWIW, I guess I'm vaguely in agreement with the people that don't want the game to be modified or haxxed or whatever, but I wish people would just come out and say "this hacking will ruin my fun" instead of clothing it in a bunch of high-minded sanctimony about intellectual property rights.

+10000 to that

EDIT: btw i also agree 117,34% with the original poster.

stalkervision
10-07-2007, 09:17 PM
Originally posted by R_Target:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Taylortony:
http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/34.giferr if you look at my post and the quote above it, you were missing the point LOL http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/59.gif as I was replying to GDFO's query in the post above who wasn't here at the time http://media.ubi.com/us/forum_images/gf-glomp.gif

Yeah, I did. I guess I jumped the gun a little. Sorry about that. http://media.ubi.com/us/forum_images/gf-glomp.gif http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

FWIW, I guess I'm vaguely in agreement with the people that don't want the game to be modified or haxxed or whatever, but I wish people would just come out and say "this hacking will ruin my fun" instead of clothing it in a bunch of high-minded sanctimony about intellectual property rights. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Ya, at least tell the truth people.. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

ElAurens
10-07-2007, 09:19 PM
This hacking will ruin my fun.

I mean it too.

I've been "flying" this sim since December of 2001 and it means a lot to me, not because I'm a gamer, hardly. Because I love WW2 aviation, and the sim gives me an outlet for that passion.

I'd hate to lose that.

DKoor
10-07-2007, 09:25 PM
I'm rowing in the same "will ruin my fun" boat.

stalkervision
10-07-2007, 09:45 PM
"row row row you boat gently down the stream.
they hacked my game which caused me pain
now life is not a dream.." http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/winky.gif

http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

heywooood
10-07-2007, 10:09 PM
"high minded sanctimony"....


I don't play online - I do however believe that what's right is right.

Sick of people making excuses for whatever cheating they choose to participate in and then running down the people who won't live that way.
It doesn't matter to me whether we're talking about robbing a bank, stealing from an employer, taking steroids to hit more home runs or hacking someone elses software...sh!tbags will rationalise to their dying day about how they're somehow 'owed' something by the people they steal from or were otherwise wronged first - but the reality is that when you take something that doesn't belong to you - whatever it is - you are the one who is wrong.

So go ahead and tell each other that its UBI's fault for not giving us info about BoB, or Olegs fault for not using better encryption like a girl that gets raped because "what did she expect wearing that cheerleader http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/metal.gifoutfit", or whatever you want to blame - the truth is easy.
You're either stealing someone elses software or utilizing a hack that was not authorised by the rightful owner of the software and if you were the creator or the distributor of this sim you would be p!ssed about it too...
so whos a hypocrite now?

LEXX_Luthor
10-07-2007, 11:56 PM
heywooood::
You're either stealing someone elses software <span class="ev_code_yellow">or</span> utilizing a hack that was not authorised by the rightful owner of the software and if you were the creator or the distributor of this sim you would be p!ssed about it too...
Thanks for making the "or" distinction between stealing (piracy) and the unauthorized? mod. They are not the same thing.


<span class="ev_code_yellow">It doesn't matter</span> to me whether we're talking about robbing a bank, stealing from an employer, taking steroids to hit more home runs or hacking someone elses software...
Robbing a bank can get people hurt or killed, although it doesn't matter. Stealing from an employer is...well stealing, although one could steal a biscuit at a restaurant, or steal investors money from a hedge fund. It doesn't matter. Taking steroids to hit more home runs is strange in that society encourages amazing feats and lust to see injuries and seems willing to overlook drug usage, and the steroids can hurt the taker. I pay no attention to sports as I think at least Ussian high school football is a US NAVY construct to pre-reduce the number of physically qualified applicants to "duh I was gonna fly tomcats but I messed up my knees." Hacking someone elses software could be for something like penetrating national defense which all nations try (Patriotic Duty), or stealing identification or banking information, or changing the text display on a computer flight sim. It doesn't matter.

VonGrantoven
10-08-2007, 02:48 AM
Originally posted by stalkervision:
"row row row you boat gently down the stream.
they hacked my game which caused me pain
now life is not a dream.." http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/winky.gif

http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

That's the winner!
In the doldrums of a storm of sanctimoniousness and ill-informed drivel, I happily blew coffee out of my nostrils!

Kudos to Stalkervision!!