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XyZspineZyX
06-16-2003, 11:25 AM
ain't it??? /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif USA is the land of money. If it didn'T have the money, the P-51 or F8F couldn't win the war. Therefore money won the war /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif



<font size=10>$$$$$</font>



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<font face="Comic Sans MS" size="2">Seit <script>var eventdate=new Date("March 20, 2003 00:00:00 GMT");d=new Date();count=Math.floor((eventdate.getTime()-d.getTime())/1000);count=Math.floor(count/(60*60*-24));document.write(count);</script> Tagen<sup>*</sup> gibts Il-2 Sturmovik: Forgotten Battles. /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif
BTW: In <script>var eventdate=new Date("June 21, 2003 00:00:00 GMT");d=new Date();count=Math.floor((eventdate.getTime()-d.getTime())/1000);count=Math.floor(count/(60*60*24));document.write(count);</script> Tag(en) gibt's das nächste Development Update von Oleg Maddox, wenn alles schiefläuft /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

<font size="1"><sup>*</sup> In Europa . In den USA gabs FB schon 16 Tage vorher am 4.3. Link (http://forums.ubi.com/messages/message_view-topic.asp?name=us_il2sturmovik_gd&id=zkyee)</font></font></p><script>c0="#000000";c1="#400000";c2="#000040";c3="#000050";c4="#000060";c5="#000070";a=document.all.tags("table");a[a.length-3].bgColor=c1;a[a.length-4].bgColor=c2;if(a[a.length-5].innerHTML.indexOf("User Options")!=-1){a[a.length-5].bgColor=c3;a[a.length-6].bgColor=c0;a[a.length-7].bgColor=c1;a[a.length-8].bgColor=c4;a[a.length-9].bgColor=c5;}else{a[a.length-5].bgColor=c0;a[a.length-6].bgColor=c1;a[a.length-7].bgColor=c4;a[a.length-8].bgColor=c5;};image="http://mitglied.lycos.de/eldur190d9/bilder/bar1.jpg";oa=a[a.length-2].style;oa.backgroundImage="url("+image+")";oa.backgroundPosition="left center";oa.backgroundRepeat="no-repeat";var a=document.all.tags("img");for(var i=0;i<a.length;i++){if[a[i].src.indexOf["/i/icons")!=-1)var o=a[i]}o.src="http://mitglied.lycos.de/eldur190d9/bilder/transparent36.gif";o.height=36;o.width=36;a=document.all.tags["td");for[i=0;i<a.length;i++)if[a[i].innerHTML.indexOf["Willey")!=-1)ii=i;a[ii+2].innerHTML="Focke-Wulf Testpilot";</script><font color=000040>

XyZspineZyX
06-16-2003, 11:25 AM
ain't it??? /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif USA is the land of money. If it didn'T have the money, the P-51 or F8F couldn't win the war. Therefore money won the war /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif



<font size=10>$$$$$</font>



<img src=http://forumsbb.ubi.com/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif width=512 height=512>



<hr>

<p align=center style="width:100%;filter:glow[color=#33CCFF,strength=2)">

<img src=http://mitglied.lycos.de/eldur190d9/bilder/willey110.jpg border=0 alt="Hier geht's zur I/JG78"> (http://www.jg78.de)

&lt;script>var specwin=window;function openspecs(){specwin=window.open("http://mitglied.lycos.de/eldur190d9/specs.htm", "specs", "hotkeys=0,width=640,height=480,left=64,top=64,scro llbars=yes");}</script>Die olle Rechenkiste vom noch olleren Willey (java_script: openspecs[))

<font face="Comic Sans MS" size="2">Seit &lt;script>var eventdate=new Date("March 20, 2003 00:00:00 GMT");d=new Date();count=Math.floor((eventdate.getTime()-d.getTime())/1000);count=Math.floor(count/(60*60*-24));document.write(count);</script> Tagen<sup>*</sup> gibts Il-2 Sturmovik: Forgotten Battles. /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif
BTW: In &lt;script>var eventdate=new Date("June 21, 2003 00:00:00 GMT");d=new Date();count=Math.floor((eventdate.getTime()-d.getTime())/1000);count=Math.floor(count/(60*60*24));document.write(count);</script> Tag(en) gibt's das nächste Development Update von Oleg Maddox, wenn alles schiefläuft /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

<font size="1"><sup>*</sup> In Europa . In den USA gabs FB schon 16 Tage vorher am 4.3. Link (http://forums.ubi.com/messages/message_view-topic.asp?name=us_il2sturmovik_gd&id=zkyee)</font></font></p>&lt;script>c0="#000000";c1="#400000";c2="#000040";c3="#000050";c4="#000060";c5="#000070";a=document.all.tags("table");a[a.length-3].bgColor=c1;a[a.length-4].bgColor=c2;if(a[a.length-5].innerHTML.indexOf("User Options")!=-1){a[a.length-5].bgColor=c3;a[a.length-6].bgColor=c0;a[a.length-7].bgColor=c1;a[a.length-8].bgColor=c4;a[a.length-9].bgColor=c5;}else{a[a.length-5].bgColor=c0;a[a.length-6].bgColor=c1;a[a.length-7].bgColor=c4;a[a.length-8].bgColor=c5;};image="http://mitglied.lycos.de/eldur190d9/bilder/bar1.jpg";oa=a[a.length-2].style;oa.backgroundImage="url("+image+")";oa.backgroundPosition="left center";oa.backgroundRepeat="no-repeat";var a=document.all.tags("img");for(var i=0;i<a.length;i++){if[a[i].src.indexOf["/i/icons")!=-1)var o=a[i]}o.src="http://mitglied.lycos.de/eldur190d9/bilder/transparent36.gif";o.height=36;o.width=36;a=document.all.tags["td");for[i=0;i<a.length;i++)if[a[i].innerHTML.indexOf["Willey")!=-1)ii=i;a[ii+2].innerHTML="Focke-Wulf Testpilot";</script><font color=000040>

Heavy_Weather
01-18-2004, 07:23 AM
......

"The wise man is often the man who plays dumb."

p1ngu666
01-18-2004, 07:47 AM
no resources won the war :P
money is worthless
oh and nice troling :P

BBB_Hyperion
01-18-2004, 07:47 AM
Some people really believe that Paper Money stands for something. Well it works only if you believe it even when there is no Real Value behind the Paper the Idea that there is one keeps it alive.
So make people believe in it is the main problem .)
That disqualifies Money as "won the war" http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

As new suggestion to the never ending "Won the war" issue we could discuss the Ideas(conversed)/People Factor who's factor is higher that wins.

Regards,
Hyperion

Chuck_Older
01-18-2004, 07:52 AM
I think I understand your replies now, H_W!

Willey-

I am not going to explain who the Soviet Union, although a recipient of US aid, didn't have the war material to even give each of it's soldiers a rifle at a critical battle. I won't say that even if each of those Soviet soldiers had a thousand dollar bill in their pocket, they still wouldn't have had a rifle. I won't explain the USSR's huge contribution. I won't even explain lend-lease to you. I won't explain how WWII took the US out of the Depression, and as far as the US being the "Land of money" well, that's a sad prejudice that a lot of people have. We prefer "the Land of the Free" and we've fought for that a lot. Many folks don't like us because of it. I really think you said that just to stir people from the US up. Personally I don't care one bit about your opinion of us if that's the case.

If you want to talk about the "land of Money", check out Monaco.

I will however address your examples of the P-51 and F8F:

England needed fighters. The British Purchasing Commision contacted Curtiss for fighters. They liked the P-40, inasmuch as it seemed best of America's single engine fighters at the time. Curtiss could not meet the demand. They invited North American Aviation to build P-40s. North American Avaition got the contract to build England's plane- but they went one step better. They decided to make a better plane than the P-40. They designed what came to be known later as the Mustang. That plane was originally the A-36. I'd have to type a few pages to explain the transformation into what we think of as the "Mustang".
It was not strictly American money that brought the Mustang into being. So much for that argument...the F8F, on the other hand, uh, the Bearcat didn't see combat, so what's the point in even mentioning it? It first flew in August of '44, but never reached operational status in combat during WWII, so that example is pointless. A billion F8Fs would have had as much impact on the air war as zero, because they never saw combat. Did you perhaps mean the F6F Hellcat, instead? Neither of Grumman's numerically following planes, the F7 or F8 would see WWII combat, although the Tigercat and Bearcat were great planes.

There's something wrong with your signature, brother. It's just a huge nonsensical mess that I assume used to be a series pf pictures and statements.

*****************************
This is a public service announcement~Clash

johann_thor
01-18-2004, 10:04 AM
also ... the nazis were funded with american dollars through a dutch bank (Bank voor Handel en Scheepvaart - Rotterdam) and Thyssen's silesian steel industry (and most of german war industry) was funded and partially owned by american industrialists (like E. Roland Harriman - Brown Brothers Harriman). http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

and as we know this kept going on until the "trading with the enemy act" of 1942 http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

so money got the war started too http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif ... oh yeah and won it aswell http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

JG14_Josf
01-18-2004, 10:26 AM
Ace of Diamonds
Schnaufer
ISBN 0 7524 1690 1

Before 1939
page 5

"When inflation came to an end in 1924 as a result of huge American Loans, a period of increasing prosperity began in Germany"

Money does have a way of motivating people.

SkyChimp
01-18-2004, 10:29 AM
Actually, Johann, it was the evil in the hearts of the Nazi and all those that followed them that started the war. Money is only incidental to that fact.

You can twist is any way you like Johann, but the German and Japanese were to blame. Sorry.

Now, on with your "America started the war, but didn't win it" stuff. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Regards,
SkyChimp
http://members.cox.net/rowlandparks/skychimp.jpg

JG14_Josf
01-18-2004, 11:24 AM
Dictators, Tyrants, and men of imense control depend upon the careless simple minds of the tax payers.

Many of the Germans and the Japanese may have contributed to many evil deeds including the paying of taxes, the working in factories, the feeding and taking care of troops, and actual fighting. But if you think they all were driven by evil intent then you are going to make a damn good taxpayer for the next tyrant.

SkyChimp
01-18-2004, 11:36 AM
Oh please, JG. Please. Anti-sematic nationalism was hugely popular among the masses of German people. Don't try and convince me they just went along with it all - oblivious to the evil they were supporting. The vast majority of Germans were into it deep.

To suggest otherwise is histroy revisionism.

Regards,
SkyChimp
http://members.cox.net/rowlandparks/skychimp.jpg

arcadeace
01-18-2004, 11:43 AM
Another dimwit intentionally inflammatory subject. Willey should be banned.

You anti-American bigots have found a home.

With no Mods the scum are gonna continue to crawl out of their no-life holes.

http://www.onpoi.net/ah/pics/users/ah_222_1073167449.jpg

warweapon2
01-18-2004, 11:59 AM
I hope all anti-americans get shot... It is their destiny.

JG69_Koenig
01-18-2004, 12:09 PM
Having someone shot because they disagree with you is the essence of fascism.

GoodKn1ght
01-18-2004, 12:16 PM
im not anti american, i love this country. but i still think germany had better planes, that has nothing to do with nationalism.

also skychimp you are just flat out wrong sorry. most of the german people WERE oblivious, to suggest otherwise is just ignorant. The common citizens were forced to clean up the concentration camps after the war and most of them were disgusted and had no idea that they existed. The ones that knew about it and were just "following orders" actually have a valid exuse according to a social psychology experiment and something called "the lemming theory." An experiment where people would press buttons that would inflict pain on a stranger in another room was performed. The person that was supposed to be feeling pain was actually an actor and was not harmed. The person being tested was surrounded by people that pressed the button like it was nothing, they were laughing and joking while the person that was being experimented on took turns pressing the button. the rule was everytime the stranger in the other room got a question wrong, the button was pressed. The person being experimented on was not told something different than what the experiment actually was. Each time the stranger got the question wrong, the pain level went up till eventually there was so much pain inflicted that it could cause death(the experimenter was told). In addition to this, the "stranger" in the other room was screaming and yelling as if in excrutiating pain. 9 people out of 10 did not hesitate to inflict the maximum amount of pain. Most people cryed after they were told that the stranger was not really feeling pain and it was a different experiment. Also most people said they were definately influenced by those around them and would have acted differently if they were by themselves. An interesting breakthrough in social psychology.

Time to think for yourself. Just say no to brainwahsing.

"Friends don't let friends fly arcade"

JG14_Josf
01-18-2004, 12:18 PM
Please?

It is not likely that this subject can remain civil.

But in case that event is possible let's look at this subject objectively.

The subject is money and war' not race nor patriotism.

If the word money is meant to convey wealth then it makes sense that war cannot be conducted without it.

Poor people, by definition, do not even have the resources needed to feed themselves. In contrast; wealthy people have the capability to direct effort over and above that which is required to merely survive.

People with an abundance of food, shelter, cars, airplanes, boats, washing machines, refrigerators, tanks, pool tables, guns, underwear, bullets, research, marbles, oil, knives, rubber, etc. have a greater capacity to kill or subdue other people who have barely enough food to stay alive.

How people manage to create wealth is another subject.

Wealth can be transfered through a medium of exchange such as currency. This exchange of wealth can occur through a proccess known as loans. A person or persons with a lot of wealth can loan a person or persons with little or no wealth a portion of their wealth in the form of a standardized currency that holds value to all the parties involved. Wealth can even be transfered directly such as with shipments of real goods such as P-39 aircraft for example.

Bearcat99
01-18-2004, 12:29 PM
I see sphincters from both sides of the Atlantic in this one.....
Thor & Josf... yeah what you have said is true. And it means squat. We must remember that there is a power that goes beyond race,nationality,and geography.... it is old, moneyed and has been in control for some time and will remain so untill the true king of this world returns.
I hate to wax philosophical/religious but it is true.....and I dont want to hijack this thread with that.

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Ins_Javert
01-18-2004, 12:38 PM
odKn1ght, I have read that study and many others like it. Those that were just following orders, did just that, but I have read others where some individuals don't go the way of just following orders. I'll give you the following orders part though since it seems to be the norm. However, what sky chimp was talking about was the citizens of Germany. They chose not to see what was right in front of their faces, they chose to not see it and then acted all dumb when it was uncovered. Can you imagine any other nation not knowing that MILLIONS of there fellow citizens just started to vanish? I don't believe that they didn't know what was going on, they might not have known of the camps, but they knew something was going on with the Jewish communities and they chose not to find out because they were afraid of what they would find. Maybe. I think they knew how could you not?

Just did some searching, the Mormon population in the U.S. is around the same in number to the amount of Jews killed in Germany. If they were all rounded up do you think that we would not notice, maybe not in the east but in the west you would have to choose not to see it. That, and Germany is allot smaller than the U.S. and the Jews in Germany were everywhere. I do not see how someone could believe that the citizens of Germany were ignorant. That is ignorant.

[This message was edited by Ins_Javert on Sun January 18 2004 at 11:47 AM.]

warweapon2
01-18-2004, 12:46 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by JG69_Koenig:
Having someone shot because they disagree with you is the essence of fascism.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

You cant justify that a quote is the essence of fascism... You fail.

SUPERAEREO
01-18-2004, 12:53 PM
Bless you Bearcat: the voice of common sense and reason in this most stupid of topics.
Not being very religious I'm not sure about a Second Coming, but agree with the spirit.

S!

SkyChimp
01-18-2004, 12:53 PM
No Ins, the German people did see it, and by and large became part of it. Willingly. It was the common German citizen that wrapped himself in Nationalist Socialism. They knew what it meant, though they might not have known where it was going to lead.

One can "blame money" in an attempt to blame America for WWII. But like I said, money is incidental to all of it. It took morally corrupted people to start WWII.

Peruse this site, and see what was thrust upon, and absorbed by, the German people before and during WWII.

http://www.calvin.edu/academic/cas/gpa/ww2era.htm

Regards,
SkyChimp
http://members.cox.net/rowlandparks/skychimp.jpg

Laddil
01-18-2004, 12:55 PM
Their planes may have been better, but their pilots weren't.

JG69_Koenig
01-18-2004, 12:57 PM
"You cant justify that a quote is the essence of fascism... You fail."


It's not a quote. I actually happen to think for myself, and happen not to be anti-american FYI.

Interesting to see you disagree about fascism. Saying anti-americans should be shot is still incredibly just as stupid and narrow-minded as what the anti-americans say.

I would like to see you in the firing squad shooting anti-americans, pressing the trigger of your rifle, idiot. And remember that freedom of thought is supposed to be one of the values so cherished and defended by the United States of America.

arcadeace
01-18-2004, 01:02 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by JG69_Koenig:
"You cant justify that a quote is the essence of fascism... You fail."


It's not a quote. I actually happen to think for myself, and happen not to be anti-american FYI.

Interesting to see you disagree about fascism. Saying anti-americans should be shot is still incredibly just as stupid and narrow-minded as what the anti-americans say.

I would like to see you in the firing squad shooting anti-americans, pressing the trigger of your rifle, idiot. And remember that freedom of thought is supposed to be one of the values so cherished and defended by the United States of America.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

You've got 9 posts!? Grow up and point 'your' disagreement at the originator of this thread! He started it, intentionally against Americans. He's got one goal in mind Mr. Enlightened. Excuse Americans if they're actually offended.

It has nothing to do with Il2/FB related...NOTHING. If your so damned humane go to the source the inflammatory crap. Assuming you have a capacity.

http://www.onpoi.net/ah/pics/users/ah_222_1073167449.jpg

johann_thor
01-18-2004, 01:03 PM
c'mon guys - don't take this so badly.

i'm not anti-american at all. i was just trying to provoke some debate on the subject. i am not saying there was some conspiracy like "Nazi-USA"

but think of it this way : everyone knew what Hitler wanted to do. go east and make lebensraum for the germans. and many US industrialists poured money into the nazi party in the 20's and later into the german war machine in the 30's. why not ? since they were going to kick some commie butt in the east.

also - britain's commonwealth was everything that the US stood against. they hindered free trade. so why support them ?

it all seems very logical to me - but then things simply did not turn out quite the way the US expected - did it ?

warweapon2
01-18-2004, 01:12 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by arcadeace:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by JG69_Koenig:
"You cant justify that a quote is the essence of fascism... You fail."


It's not a quote. I actually happen to think for myself, and happen not to be anti-american FYI.

Interesting to see you disagree about fascism. Saying anti-americans should be shot is still incredibly just as stupid and narrow-minded as what the anti-americans say.

I would like to see you in the firing squad shooting anti-americans, pressing the trigger of your rifle, idiot. And remember that freedom of thought is supposed to be one of the values so cherished and defended by the United States of America.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

You've got 9 posts!? Grow up and point 'your' disagreement at the originator of this thread! He started it, intentionally against Americans. He's got one goal in mind Mr. Enlightened. Excuse Americans if they're actually offended.

It has nothing to do with Il2/FB related...NOTHING. If your so damned humane go to the source the inflammatory crap. Assuming you have a capacity.

http://www.onpoi.net/ah/pics/users/ah_222_1073167449.jpg <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yes, my point exactly.

BM357_Raven
01-18-2004, 01:17 PM
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JG14_Josf
01-18-2004, 01:36 PM
Propaganda, another subject of course, has a purpose.
When propagada is effective the target subjects will have formed opinons aggreable to the propagandists.

A very good book on the subject of German people during WWII is a book co-written by the German fighter pilot Johannes Stienhoff titled:
"Voices from the Third Reich"

ISBN 0 306 80594 4

In my time, I saw what I believed to be my government murdering innocent men, women and children.

During this live Televised event the tanks my tax dollars paid for were driven through a burning house as the T.V. commentator declared that the occupants of that house were killing themselves.

My actions following this event lead me to meet with the survivors of this travesty and afterwards to run for my districts seat in the house of representatives.

The incumbent used tax dollars to pay for such things as a local veterans home, while my own resources enabled me to print fliers, attend a few debates, including one on a local radio station. The incumbent did not attend any of these debates.

In order to gain signatures to run for office my message personally delivered was that something is not right when innocent men women and children are being killed by our own government.

Right or wrong I am an example of a person that thinks his government is in the wrong.

The Gestapo has not knocked on my door to ask for an accounting of my actions.

It is so easy to be affected by other's efforts to mold opinion. It is not so easy to reciprocate when one is so relatively limited in resources.

SkyChimp
01-18-2004, 01:57 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by johann_thor:
c'mon guys - don't take this so badly.

i'm not anti-american at all. i was just trying to provoke some debate on the subject. i am not saying there was some conspiracy like "Nazi-USA"

but think of it this way : everyone knew what Hitler wanted to do. go east and make lebensraum for the germans. and many US industrialists poured money into the nazi party in the 20's and later into the german war machine in the 30's. why not ? since they were going to kick some commie butt in the east.

also - britain's commonwealth was everything that the US stood against. they hindered free trade. so why support them ?

it all seems very logical to me - but then things simply did not turn out quite the way the US expected - did it ?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


Nobody's taking it badly, Johann, you are just attemtping to revise history and blame the rise of Naziism on, at least in part, on the US. Sorry, not buying it.

The responsibility for the the rise of Naziism, and its outcome, rests squarely on the shoulders of the German people. Sorry if that offends you.

The US provided low interest loans to Germany to help its economy during a depression that was more crushing than the depression in the US. It was Germany that perverted that good will and used the money to build its armanments industry.

Sorry Johann, not buying your revisionism.

Regards,
SkyChimp
http://members.cox.net/rowlandparks/skychimp.jpg

p1ngu666
01-18-2004, 02:08 PM
like its been said, money is worthless pretty much.
its funny we are destroying the world for this thing. i fan****intastic book i read called the little earth book has some excellent stuff about money in it. im gonna buy a ton of em tomoz, shop that sells em is closing down http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_frown.gif
ill sell them here if anyone wants one http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif. its the best book ive ever read i think http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif. look it up on amazon if u want.

oh, and some anti americans have valid reasons tobe so, perhaps im anti american, im against them doing stupid/bad things, just like anyone/anything else

arcadeace
01-18-2004, 02:36 PM
What a guy you are johann, of course there wasn't any conspiracy, "just trying to provoke some debate". And of course now America (and Britian) are freaken guilty.

It really is a simple debate, nothing much too it. Some regular folks got a taste of power, revenge and tyranny.

http://www.onpoi.net/ah/pics/users/ah_222_1073167449.jpg

Old_Canuck
01-18-2004, 02:55 PM
"deja vu all over again."

Arm_slinger
01-18-2004, 03:10 PM
And you all seem to think that this is anti americanism? How do you know what he meant espeacially you chimp saying you KNOW what he means. There are no ways through a forum you can see how someone means something there are no facial expressions etc.

Ok this thread probably didnt set up to be vicious at all but its gone that way so can someone lock this one?

Oh since i dont agree on some american policies does that mean i'm anti american as well and should be shot? Your just as bad as the people that really do oppose america

And that is as far as im going here

SkyChimp
01-18-2004, 03:28 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Arm_slinger:
And you all seem to think that this is anti americanism? How do you know what he meant espeacially you chimp saying you KNOW what he means. There are no ways through a forum you can see how someone means something there are no facial expressions etc.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Gee, and I thought Johann was pretty clear.



<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>
Ok this thread probably didnt set up to be vicious at all but its gone that way so can someone lock this one?
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I'm a little dumbfounded it was started at all, by the person who was most displeased about the last thread.


<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>
Oh since i dont agree on some american policies does that mean i'm anti american as well and should be shot? Your just as bad as the people that really do oppose america

And that is as far as im going here<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Did I call you anti-American, or say you should be shot? This is a thread about history, not current American foreign policy. Please don't attempt to turn it into another debate about that, Arm_Slinger.

Regards,
SkyChimp
http://members.cox.net/rowlandparks/skychimp.jpg

Chuck_Older
01-18-2004, 03:32 PM
Jeez and I thought somebody was going to say that America started the whole thing by trade practices against Japan. I was all ready to drag out the Manchurian invasion from the '30s http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Let's not forget Switzerland in all this money talk concerning WWII. The Swiss were in a strange position, it's true, but you have to think they knew that, after all these people were oppressed and dispossed, and many countries taken over by Germany, that the influx of money in the accounts they were holding just MIGHT be coming from war profits and/or stolen from holocaust victims...and please, no comments on how the holocaust didn't happen, lol. I am not about to be swayed into thinking that some Jewish folks got their arms tatooed just to point fingers at Germany after the shooting stopped! If you think that, ask yourself why they would pick the loser of the war to target. If it were me, and I was a liar and a cheat, I'd pick the winner to blame- they'd have more money than the losers, right? http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

But, again, I'll say it: the war took the US out of the Depression. FDR made some progress, but the step up in jobs, and money coming into the country ended the Great Depression in the US. The US was not rolling in free cash on the morning of December 7th, 1941, so exactly how did the war start on this side of the Atlantic, because of money? I am baffled by the concept, please explain http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_confused.gif We were unprepared for war in any case, many soldiers trained with fake guns and cannon made of wood and logs on wheels. Tank crews practiced maneuvers in automobiles with "TANK" painted on the doors. We couldn't even get uniforms that fit, for Pete's sake. Ever read Bill Mauldin's Army? Cartoon book. Breeze through it sometime. It's really funny, but that's not the point. He drew his cartoons from first hand experience. Look at the equipment and the men's disgust with it in the early '40s. You'll see soldiers trading their tin hats to kids for toy cannon. Funny, but look at what else they traded: a US army field piece made from a telephone pole and wagon wheels! http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

*****************************
This is a public service announcement~Clash

SkyChimp
01-18-2004, 03:34 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Chuck_Older:
Jeez and I thought somebody was going to say that America started the whole thing by trade practices against Japan. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Give it time.

Regards,
SkyChimp
http://members.cox.net/rowlandparks/skychimp.jpg

Chuck_Older
01-18-2004, 03:50 PM
LOL!

*****************************
This is a public service announcement~Clash

p1ngu666
01-18-2004, 03:51 PM
it was the vast employment generated by war that made america wealthier
just like what happened in german before the war infact

Chuck_Older
01-18-2004, 04:03 PM
Wellllll....

Could the GI bill have anything to do with it? I mean, we produced a lot of college educated ex-soldiers that way

Could motivating the other half of the workforce have done it? Women had job skill in numbers previously unheard of

Could the scientists we kidnap- er, I mean, invited over here have had anything to do with it? We had many technical innovations after the war

Saying "the war made america wealthier" is over-simplifying the fact. It's not like we collected on our war debts, either. The world got a lot of goods and services for cheap money, and we never got all of it back, don't forget. Plus we also paid a lot of good money for rebuilding a few countries that we kinda stompled a bit too hard. Not that I'm apologizing, but it took money to rebuild, oh, say Japan. Things like the Berlin airlift cost money. So did sticking up for France in IndoChina, but I digress...

*****************************
This is a public service announcement~Clash

jensenpark
01-18-2004, 04:06 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by GoodKn1ght:
im not anti american, i love this country. but i still think germany had better planes, that has nothing to do with nationalism.

also skychimp you are just flat out wrong sorry. most of the german people WERE oblivious, to suggest otherwise is just ignorant. The common citizens were forced to clean up the concentration camps after the war and most of them were disgusted and had no idea that they existed. The ones that knew about it and were just "following orders" actually have a valid exuse according to a social psychology experiment and something called "the lemming theory." An experiment where people would press buttons that would inflict pain on a stranger in another room was performed. The person that was supposed to be feeling pain was actually an actor and was not harmed. The person being tested was surrounded by people that pressed the button like it was nothing, they were laughing and joking while the person that was being experimented on took turns pressing the button. the rule was everytime the stranger in the other room got a question wrong, the button was pressed. The person being experimented on was not told something different than what the experiment actually was. Each time the stranger got the question wrong, the pain level went up till eventually there was so much pain inflicted that it could cause death(the experimenter was told). In addition to this, the "stranger" in the other room was screaming and yelling as if in excrutiating pain. 9 people out of 10 did not hesitate to inflict the maximum amount of pain. Most people cryed after they were told that the stranger was not really feeling pain and it was a different experiment. Also most people said they were definately influenced by those around them and would have acted differently if they were by themselves. An interesting breakthrough in social psychology.

Time to think for yourself. Just say no to brainwahsing.

"Friends don't let friends fly arcade"<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

You need to read: "Hitler's Willing Executioners: Ordinary Germans and the Holocaust". It sheds a very clear (and contreversial I admit)light on the myth that 40 odd million Germans happily went about their lives unaware of what was going on - both before and during the war.
While I agree that not 100% were behind the nutcase Nazi's...it is very clear that the Nazi's enjoyed overwhelming support...throughout much of the war. Many post-war books and memoirs written by famous German soldiers bears this out. Even Hartman spoke about the renewed enthusiam he felt after meeting Hitler, and after the initial success of the Battle of the Bulge.

It is often too horrible to comprehend that humanity can tolerate such evil, and hence I think the reason many try to believe it was only a few bad apples forcing an unwilling population to commit unimaginable acts of evil...

http://images.ucomics.com/images/doonesbury/strip/thecast/duke2.jpg

"Death before unconsciousness" - Uncle Duke

arcadeace
01-18-2004, 04:09 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by p1ngu666:
it was the vast employment generated by war that made america wealthier
just like what happened in german before the war infact<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I didn't know that

http://www.onpoi.net/ah/pics/users/ah_222_1074467168.jpg

Chuck_Older
01-18-2004, 04:33 PM
That's one ugly baby. Never have to waste money on a babysitter, though. Nobody's gonna bother that kid!

*****************************
This is a public service announcement~Clash

JG14_Josf
01-18-2004, 04:44 PM
"I am baffled by the concept, please explain"

FDR borrowed.

Keynesian economics.

___________________
It is relevaant to quote the former prime minister of Britain, James Callaghan, who openly confessed in 1977.

We used to think that you could spend your way out of recession. ...I tell you, in all candor, that that option no longer exists, and that insofar as it ever did exist, it only worked by injecting bigger doses of inflation into the economy followed by higher levels of unemployment as the next step. That is the history of the past twenty years.
_____________

The Keynesian Episode
W.H. Hutt
ISBN 0 913966 60 4

Read also:
The Roosevelt Myth (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0930073274/qid=1074467662/sr=1-1/ref=sr_1_1/002-0120494-1776032?v=glance&s=books)


In the fight against Facism the U.S. marched further into Socialism.

Socialism (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0913966622/002-0120494-1776032?v=glance&me=ATVPDKIKX0DER&st=books)

Is it not curious that one of the reasons why Britain and France declared war with Germany was the invasion of Poland and yet Russia also invaded Poland.

Was Poland liberated after the war?

In the fight to liberate many was it really necessary to enslave so many?

I realize that these subjects, open here in this thread, tend to rile some and cause fervent emotion, however we are simply typing messages.

The real test of moral integrity may not be so obvious to most of us compared to, for example someone like:
Theodore Haas (http://www.jpfo.org/Survive.htm)

p1ngu666
01-18-2004, 05:09 PM
hm, last link is interesting, not sure on the gun control thing mind

i think the british government prefers the term "downturn" so not too scare ppl. dunno how u gonna get out of ression without spending mind :\

SkyChimp
01-18-2004, 05:35 PM
I'm familiar with JPFO - being a gun owner and member of the NRA. For the most part, I agree with the JPFO, but take exception to the assertion that there is more anti-semitism in American than Europe. (Haas has been known for some time as an extremist even among gun owners.) There is anti-Semitism everywhere. But nothing like the scale of organized hate that exisited in Germany in the 20's, 30's and 40's. Even today anti-sematism in America pales in comparison to that which exists in Europe. Although I do agree that the leftist liberalism in America has very questionable motives.

Regards,
SkyChimp
http://members.cox.net/rowlandparks/skychimp.jpg

JG14_Josf
01-18-2004, 05:42 PM
Econimics is not really that difficult to understand. The hard part is unlearning all the crap taught in public shools, at least for we the people in America. Stupid stuff like "War is good for the economy" is but one clear example. This idea is damn near rooted into many an American's soul, kind of like "Indians were savages".
Take any complex subject and attach just the right catch phrase and boom a mind is made up.

Gun laws?

I do not think it is by accident that Americans still enjoy a relatively high state of liberty. My Father, who is dead now, made sure that his son understood the need to be armed.

Hitler, Stalin, Mao, Pol Pot, take your pick they all managed to disarm their subjects. That is one big step toward making free people into subjects.

When you are a subject and the boss says we are killing Jews today what choices are left?

Take me first Der Fuhrer I am no longer able to defend myself, or OK, how many?

Back to the subject of economics.

It really is simple.

What is the difference between digging your own grave so as to unburden the executioner and giving money to tyrants? Time?

johann_thor
01-18-2004, 05:47 PM
skychimp - i am not trying to take the blame off germans - nor trying to blame anybody or any country for that matter. what i said however is true and is part of history - why is this such a sensitive issue ??!! ..... relations between nazi-germany and america in the 30's ??!!

however i don't think many people realize the scale of this american involvement. Thyssen and Flick sold the Consolidated Silesian Steel Corporation to UBC : ..........

E. Roland Harriman – 3991 shares
Cornelis Lievense – 4 shares
Harold D.Pennington – 1 share
Ray Morris–– 1 share
Prescott S. Bush – 1 share
H.J. Kouwenhoven – 1 share
Johann G. Groeninger – 1 share

............ an then the company became the Silesian American Corporation (part of UBC). they owned about 45% of polish steel industry in western-poland.

The New York Tribune exposed this in 1942 in an article called "hitler's angel" and finally on October 20. 1942 UBC was toast - and on November 17. 1942 they also took over the Silesian American Corporation.

many other examples exist. Rockefeller's Standard Oil invested millions in a company no other then Farben AG. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif ..... Henry Ford also invested heavily in german war-production.

so I am not just talking about "low-interest loans" to germany like someone mentioned ... but large-scale investment that accounted for 1/3 of all german steel industry and 1/2 of all its explosives production.

regards.

RAF74_Buzzsaw
01-18-2004, 05:52 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by GoodKn1ght:
...most of the german people WERE oblivious, to suggest otherwise is just ignorant. The common citizens were forced to clean up the concentration camps after the war and most of them were disgusted and had no idea that they existed. "<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yep, your right, none of the Germans knew what was happening.

http://www.ukar.org/camera00.jpg

By the way, the war was not won by money, it was won because ordinary British, Canadian, American, Australian, Russian, etc. decided to do something.

Like this young girl and boy who were hung for helping Soviet prisoners escape:

http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/2WWbruskina2.jpg

RAF74 Buzzsaw

JG14_Josf
01-18-2004, 06:15 PM
Johann_thor,

Can you link sources for your information?

Support, in any form, toward anyone predisposed to injure is not very smart.

Anyone who thinks money is nothing can send all they have to me.

In real terms. On a personal level imagine the following:

Go down to the police station and ask the seargent if he knows the address of any violent criminals, preferably one that is down on his luck. Get the address of this guy and send him a ckeck or better yet send cash. Be sure and include a return address and add a list of all your personal belongings. How about calling a cab for the criminal too.

Be sure and get rid of any guns, knives or sharp sticks you have laying around the house and let the criminal know about this too.

johann_thor
01-18-2004, 06:23 PM
Trading With The Enemy - 1933-1949 - Charles Higham

I Paid Hitler; the autobiography of August Thyssen

i have a few more ... will post when i get home

SkyChimp
01-18-2004, 06:51 PM
Johann, the US wasn't at war with Germany in the 20s and 30s. Germany wasn't at war with anyone until 1939. Until then, trade is fair game. You need to understand that America was in the midst of a depression throughout ALL of the '30s. Trade is good. Now you can point out all the references you like that the US traded with Germany prior to WWII, but there is no blinking at the fact that the Germans twisted the good faith trade and used much of the benefit toward war production. Only Germany truly knew Germany's direction.

Now, don't get me wrong. I'm not accusing you of being anti-American, but your intent here is very clear. You are clearly placing some culpability of for what happened in Germany on America. That's a clever way of taking the blame from the those who deserve it - the ordinary German citizen. The German people allowed Naziism to rise and take power, by and large they went along with it. They are responsible for the outcome.

BTW, a better angle you may want to take would be this: Naziism appealed the the masses of Germans because it gave them a national identity. After two decades of crushing punishment for WWI, Germany was broke and still having to pay reparations. American investment capital helped in that regard. But Great Britain and France (especially France), were more interested in punishment than charity. Even given American investment and low interest loans, Germany could not pay the reparations Great Britain and France demanded. It was under these circumstances that Hilter appealled to the masses. Perhaps if Great Britian and France had not sought to inflict crippling punishment on Germany, and instead invested in the country, their economies, as well as that of Germany, would have improved, and Hilter would have been seen as the crazy zealot he was.

But this does not detract from the ordinary German citizen's responsibility for Nazi Germany.


Regards,
SkyChimp
http://members.cox.net/rowlandparks/skychimp.jpg

[This message was edited by SkyChimp on Sun January 18 2004 at 06:06 PM.]

[This message was edited by SkyChimp on Sun January 18 2004 at 06:07 PM.]

JG14_Josf
01-18-2004, 07:28 PM
SkyChimp,

In your world things may be all tidy and everyone fits into your chosen description, but this does not mean reality must comply.

America is not a single entity capable of responsibility. Such ideas are purposefully deceptive.

It is one thing to clasify a group of people into a catagory as a convenience instead of listing each name in the group.
Example:
America participated in WWII.

A number of people actually participated in WWII. I was not one of them. However in some small way my father may have participated. He may have done something that directly influenced the events that fall under the list of events that define WWII.

Each event and each person participating in the events that make up WWII are separate moral issues to which each person is responsible.

The idea that anyone or anything can be responsible for, or stand in place, of a person's own actions is false.

If you do not understand this fact then you will not understand someone posting on this board who may wish to pass on information that can be used to better understand the individual responsiblilty of people involved in the events known as WWII and therefore their own potential responsibility for future events.

SkyChimp
01-18-2004, 07:46 PM
JG, your effort to sound profound comes up a little short.

Reread this whole thread. Look at what Johann is trying to say.

He is clearly trying to say that America bears some responsibility for the direction Germany took. That is not only wrong, it's ridiculous. The direction Germany took was incidentally, or at most minimally indirectly, related to America's relationship with Germany after WWI.

Germany appealled to Hilter because he brought hope to them in the midst of depression. Germany wasn't depressed because the US was investing capital in the country, it was depressed in spite of that. She was depressed largely because of the reparations demanded by neighboring European countries.

The investment of capital help transformed post-WWI Germany, eventually, into an exporter nation. IN SPITE OF THAT FACT, she could not achieve a necessary level of economic stability because of the crushing reparations she was forced to pay.

America showed a far more charitable attitude towards Germany after WWI than any of her neighbors.

If one insists on shifting blame for the rise of Naziisim, or the direction Germany took, from the German people (which is where it belongs), the place to shift it would be to her European neighbors who were hell-bent on keeping her poor and weak.

Regards,
SkyChimp
http://members.cox.net/rowlandparks/skychimp.jpg

[This message was edited by SkyChimp on Sun January 18 2004 at 07:14 PM.]

hop2002
01-18-2004, 08:31 PM
Germany suffered because of reparations in the early 20s. From 1923 onwards, the German economy grew and reperations were deffered or reduced. It wasn't until the Wall Street crash, and the flight of international capital, that the German economy collapsed again, and it was nothing to do with reparations.

In fact, few reparations were ever paid. (Less than the amount the Britain and France repaid to the US for war debts, and less than Germany paid to the US for loans taken out in the 20s)

JG14_Josf
01-18-2004, 08:58 PM
johann_thor,

Thanks for the book reference. This subject interests me greatly. If you can, please do post the other sources and if possible can you recommend the one that you consider to be the most valuable.

GoodKn1ght
01-19-2004, 01:31 AM
I still dont think most of the german people knew about it, maybe some did but im not convinced that all of them did. And for those that did know their behavior can be explained by modern social psychology. im in no way trying to justify what happened. wait a second im on an internet gaming forum. nevermind.

"Friends don't let friends fly arcade"

Rajvosa
01-19-2004, 02:05 AM
NRA = KKK

Ask Michael Moore http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif (Bowling for Columbine)

Golf GTI Edition 2.0 16v

SUPERAEREO
01-19-2004, 02:42 AM
C'mon Rajvosa, I like reading Michael Moore too but NRA=KKK is pushing it a bit far, isn't it?

I don't like to comment too much on their internal affairs: I'm not American so I don't see what right I'd have to do so.

S!

Rajvosa
01-19-2004, 02:48 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by SUPERAEREO:
C'mon Rajvosa, I like reading Michael Moore too but NRA=KKK is pushing it a bit far, isn't it?

I don't like to comment too much on their internal affairs: I'm not American so I don't see what right I'd have to do so.

S!<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

You got me wrong! I was just quoting mr Moore. I really know nothing about NRA...

Golf GTI Edition 2.0 16v

SUPERAEREO
01-19-2004, 02:51 AM
Me neither, but I grew up with firearms in the house... http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Salute!

DaBallz
01-19-2004, 03:37 AM
Flame thread, time to lock?

D***

Rajvosa
01-19-2004, 03:50 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by SUPERAEREO:
Me neither, but I grew up with firearms in the house... http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Salute!<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

He he... I grew up with firearms shooting at my house http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Golf GTI Edition 2.0 16v

SUPERAEREO
01-19-2004, 04:53 AM
Balkans, I guess?
Happily I was spared such an experience...

S!

Cajun76
01-19-2004, 05:09 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by GoodKn1ght:
I still dont think most of the german people knew about it, maybe some did but im not convinced that all of them did. And for those that did know their behavior can be explained by modern social psychology. im in no way trying to justify what happenedim in no way trying to justify what happened. wait a second im on an internet gaming forum. nevermind.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

No one has said all Germans knew about it. Those that did know did not have the direct contact with each other that the subjects (the ones pushing the button) of that experiment had. They were strangers. They didn't go to their families day after day and discuss events happening around them. They didn't fall asleep each night, and in the darkness possibly go over what they were a part of in this experiment.

their behavior can be explained by modern social psychology

im in no way trying to justify what happened

These two statements are contradicting one another. Your explaining their behavior with your modern social psychology, which, being a narrow microcosm of human behavior, cannot explain the actions of millions.

This experiment can help show how it happened, but you're using it to explain away their actions. And actions can be either an act or the lack of one, if it's willful "They couldn't help it" "Everyone was doing it" These rationalizations don't usually have an impact on my personal conduct, as I hope they would not have an impact on anyone else's behavior.

Good hunting,
Cajun76

"It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it."
-Aristotle

Meanwhile, in the 20th century:

BOOM! Yeah, Alright you primitive screwheads, listen up. See this? This is my T-Bolt!! It's has 8 .50cals and 2000lbs+ worth of bombs and rockets. Republic's top of the line. You can find this in the Kick A$$ department. That's right, this sweet baby was made in Farmingdale, Long Island and Evansville, Indiana. Retails for about $82,997.95. It's got a turbo-supercharger, all metal control surfaces with blunt nosed ailerons, and a hair trigger. That's right, shop smart, shop Republic. YOU GOT THAT!? Now I swear, the next one of you primates, E-ven TOUCHES me..... - Anonymous http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Zayets
01-19-2004, 05:10 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by arcadeace:
You've got 9 posts!? Grow up and point 'your' disagreement at the originator of this thread! He started it, intentionally against Americans. He's got one goal in mind Mr. Enlightened. Excuse Americans if they're actually offended.

It has nothing to do with Il2/FB related...NOTHING. If your so damned humane go to the source the inflammatory crap. Assuming you have a capacity.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

OMG,
don't tell me you can't sleep the nights because you have under 5000 posts.Sad.

Zayets out

NegativeGee
01-19-2004, 09:03 AM
Jeez, here we go again!

Good to see both sides have the same lack of restraint..... Tully_ please do the honours before this one reaches page 12 http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

"As weaponry, both were good, but in far different ways from each other. In a nutshell, I describe it this way: if the FW 190 was a sabre, the 109 was a florett, or foil, like that used in the precision art of fencing." - Gunther Rall

http://www.invoman.com/images/tali_with_hands.jpg

Look Noobie, we already told you, we don't have the Patch!

Rajvosa
01-19-2004, 09:15 AM
Unfortunately, some people will NEVER learn!

Golf GTI Edition 2.0 16v

JG14_Josf
01-19-2004, 10:46 AM
SkyChimp wrote:

"He is clearly trying to say that America bears some responsibility for the direction Germany took."

I read what Johann wrote and I make an effort to assume nothing. Instead I read the words written. The words in between the lines would be mine and any meaning I make up as to what I think he wrote would be my responsibility not his.

What Johann wrote and now had made reference to is germane to the topic; Did Money win the war and then; Did Amercians finance German War capabilites?

In order to understand the question and the possible answers it is important to consider what constitutes the econimical actions termed investment.

The subsequent sub total of actions expected to occur after an investment, are usually well researched, and the hope usually is that a profit will be made as a result of an investment. This is basic economics.

After the "local Gas Company" was found to have poisoned the ground water the property values went down in this area. During the discovery of this fact a few real estate agents may have left that fact out of a few transactions. Some people may have made some bad investments. Ignorance may have even contributed to some severe health problems, problems that could have been avoided had some people been more vocal concering what they knew.

Attaching responsibility to groups such as "America", "Germany", or "PG&E" remains an error and does nothing to illuminate who was responsible, what can be done to avoid such actions in the future, hold accountable those responsible, absolve those previously deemed wrong in error, praise those who's actions directly contributed to the lessen of the damage, etc.

arcadeace
01-19-2004, 11:07 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Zayets:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by arcadeace:
You've got 9 posts!? Grow up and point 'your' disagreement at the originator of this thread! He started it, intentionally against Americans. He's got one goal in mind Mr. Enlightened. Excuse Americans if they're actually offended.

It has nothing to do with Il2/FB related...NOTHING. If your so damned humane go to the source the inflammatory crap. Assuming you have a capacity.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

OMG,
don't tell me you can't sleep the nights because you have under 5000 posts.Sad.

Zayets out<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

If it can bring you out of saddness, I think you have too many posts, not to mention you're a jerk. Learn how to focus on the point being made.

http://www.onpoi.net/ah/pics/users/ah_222_1073167449.jpg

crazyivan1970
01-19-2004, 11:13 AM
Moderation on this board is absent lately hehe

V!
Regards,

VFC*Crazyivan aka VFC*HOST

http://www.rmutt.netfirms.com/ivan-reaper.gif

Kozhedub: In combat potential, the Yak-3, La-7 and La-9 fighters were indisputably superior to the Bf-109s and Fw-190s. But, as they say, no matter how good the violin may be, much depends on the violinist. I always felt respect for an enemy pilot whose plane I failed to down.

johann_thor
01-19-2004, 05:25 PM
skychimp don't be so friggin simple-minded !

quote: "He is clearly trying to say that America bears some responsibility for the direction Germany took."

SO friggin what ??!!!! to be honest i TOTALLY agree on your points about UK and France ! they should have supported the weimar republic and the social-democrats of germany instead of allowing the nazis to take over to fight the communists ! we actually agree....but you keep flaming me for trying to making germans less guilty ... this has nothing to do with germans ... and by the way i come from iceland and I could not give a **** about germans !!!!!!!!!! so we actually agree.... but not disagree !!

BUT...... remember one thing !!!! the soviets invaded poland in 1923 to link up with the socialists in germany that ended WWI (yes hitler was right about that scenario) but the polish kicked their sorry commie butts!...all the way back to russia (actually the polish cavalary saved the world as we know it!).

the reason why US industrialists supported nazi-germany was that they were going to kick USSR's butt all the way to kamschatcka !!!

and britain was so ****ing brilliant to declare war on germany after the invasion of poland in 1939 cuz they knew this was the only way to stop germany from becoming the world's 2nd greatest power .... after america of course.

do you get my drift

ohh...and jg14_josf ... I got a few more

The Secret War Against the Jews: How Western Espionage Betrayed the Jewish People. - John Loftus and Mark Aarons.

this is not a very good book BUT !!!! ... does contain a lot of referances (drunk..spelling!!) to reliable sources.

Michael Zezima's Saving Private Power: The Hidden History of the Good War (Soft Skull Press)

check out it's sources ! - they are more important then the book.


"'There are no atheists in foxholes' isn't an argument against atheists, its an argument against foxholes" -- John Morrow

johann_thor
01-19-2004, 05:28 PM
oh and JG14_josf ... i got at least 4-5 more books on the subject ... will post or PM those title

"'There are no atheists in foxholes' isn't an argument against atheists, its an argument against foxholes" -- John Morrow

SkyChimp
01-19-2004, 06:39 PM
Nice try, Johann, A "simple minded" person would accept your explanation at face value, but your very first post in this thread reveals what you are really trying it intimate: that the US funded and somehow supported the Nazis, if not directly, then indirectly.


"the nazis were funded with american dollars through a dutch bank "

"Thyssen's silesian steel industry (and most of german war industry) was funded and partially owned by american industrialists"

then to top it off you said:

"so money got the war started too"

Your intent is clear.

Regards,
SkyChimp
http://members.cox.net/rowlandparks/skychimp.jpg

SkyChimp
01-19-2004, 06:59 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by hop2002:
Germany suffered because of reparations in the early 20s. From 1923 onwards, the German economy grew and reperations were deffered or reduced. It wasn't until the Wall Street crash, and the flight of international capital, that the German economy collapsed again, and it was nothing to do with reparations.

In fact, few reparations were ever paid. (Less than the amount the Britain and France repaid to the US for war debts, and less than Germany paid to the US for loans taken out in the 20s)<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I remember reading books on this subject in college. From what I remember, the German economy was in shambles until 1925, when inflation was actually brought under control. During this time reparations were paid. The actual amount is inconsequential. Whatever the amount was, Germany could scarely afford it, and it contributed to the destruction of the economy.

Regards,
SkyChimp
http://members.cox.net/rowlandparks/skychimp.jpg

johann_thor
01-19-2004, 07:43 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by SkyChimp:
Nice try, Johann, A "simple minded" person would accept your explanation at face value, but your very first post in this thread reveals what you are really trying it intimate: that the US funded and somehow supported the Nazis, if not directly, then indirectly.


"the nazis were funded with american dollars through a dutch bank "

"Thyssen's silesian steel industry (and most of german war industry) was funded and partially owned by american industrialists"

then to top it off you said:

"so money got the war started too"

Your intent is clear.

_Regards,_
_SkyChimp_
http://members.cox.net/rowlandparks/skychimp.jpg <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


my intent is clear ... what are you insane ??? what intent ???? ... to make nazis seem what .. ??? better ???

and you quoted....

Nice try, Johann, A "simple minded" person would accept your explanation at face value, but your very first post in this thread reveals what you are really trying it intimate: that the US funded and somehow supported the Nazis, if not directly, then indirectly.


.....they were ..... !!! we all wanted them to wipe out the commie bastards in the east !!!!


and then i said.......

"Thyssen's silesian steel industry (and most of german war industry) was funded and partially owned by american industrialists"

fact !!!! as i have proven before !!!!!


my intent ????

you lame-*** steriotypical yankee !!!! think I am taking the cause of illiterate low-class nazi scum in order to prove your version of puritan-american-psuedo-history(oh i forgot they dont teach history in your "schools")

at least you did not debunk anything of the facts i mentioned !

i have had more intelligent debates with you before. what is your problem .... did i hit a soft spot ???

Dolemite-
01-19-2004, 07:47 PM
Correction, Dolemite won the war. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

___________________________________________
WWW.DOLEMITE.COM (http://WWW.DOLEMITE.COM)
flying on HL as Dolemite02

johann_thor
01-19-2004, 07:54 PM
you can't even try to discuss history on this forum without getting attacked by ****************** trying to label you as a nazi for simply stating the fact that relations between nazi-germany and USA was substantial at least during the pre-war years.

**** you very much !!!

"Patriotism is the last refuge of a scoundrel" - Samuel Johnson

censored with hindsight -

[This message was edited by johann_thor on Wed January 21 2004 at 09:53 AM.]

Rajvosa
01-20-2004, 02:46 AM
Many well known Americans openly supported German Nazis. Take a look at that fool Charles Lindbergh! I hade highest respect for that aviator, until I read he openly supported nazism.

Golf GTI Edition 2.0 16v

zugfuhrer
01-20-2004, 02:53 AM
Its quite a paradox that Germany payed money to France and England according to the Versaille treaty.
France and England payed back their war-loans to America.
America loaned money to Germany so that they could build up their country. Autobahn and tanks you know.
If the war hasnt started Germany would have to start paying the loans back to America which would have made the times wery hard in Germany.
Isnt that quite a paradox that American money payed the development of Whermach

owlwatcher
01-20-2004, 03:30 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by johann_thor:
simply stating the fact that relations between nazi-germany and USA was substantial at least during the pre-war years.

**** you very much !!!

"Patriotism is the last resort of a scoundrel" - Samuel Johnson<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Same as the 1stWW, US almost sided with Germany.
The time line between 1918 to 1939 was bad for the whole world.
Money was not the problem or the source as you would claim.
Food, clothing, shelter and work what was lacking.
If as you claim money was meant for defeating the commies.
The US military was not in any way shape or form ready for a conflick.
During these years the USA with Nazi,commies supporters were out voted by peace makers.
Look at how long it took for the US to enter the 2ndWW.
Maybe the USA should have had closer ties with Germany. Look who was fighting for power.
Nazi vs commie. Some good choices there.

DaBallz
01-20-2004, 03:48 AM
I have seen more falshoods and revisionist "history" here than anywhere else before!
Any thing that can be found is used to spin WWII
into America's fault. American money built
the German millitary, American money won WWII.

And the last post that Lindburgh was a NAZI.
He was not a NAZI, but he did believe a war
with Germany was un winnable.

Lindburgh was an isolationist as were most
Americans in the 1930's. He was not a member
of the American Bund however, but he did speak
at one or more of their meetings.

While I'm railing away about the previously
posted crap, show me how much money was repaid
to America for WWII hardware and war loans...
Show mw ANY Russian Lend Lease returns or payments.
Show me ANY German, British or French repayments
of reconstruction loans.....

Yup, America was in it for the money. we lost
Billions in 1940 dollars. Trillions by today's standards.

America was indeed trading freely with Germany and Japan
untill the invasion of Manchuria and the seisure
of Czech land in 1938. All trade ended after
the invasion of Poland in 1939 and Pearl Harbor
in 1941.

Amongst the technologies and hardware traded
with all future AXIS countries was aircraft engines,
fuel and fuel additives (without Tetra Ethyl
Lead WWII avation as we know it would have been
impossible), Planes, cars trucks, metal working
machines, scrap and finished metals, oil, guns,
And as Goering was quoted as saying, Refrigerators and razor blades.

Oh yes, and cigarettes. The germans loved US Cigarettes.

Yup, American bashing has rizen to new hights in this thread.

d***

Rajvosa
01-20-2004, 05:28 AM
Didn't say that Lindbergh WAS a nazi. He openly supported and promoted Nazi Germany. What does that make him? I also know that he was an isolationist. But the one that supported nazis. Period.

Golf GTI Edition 2.0 16v

The.Clansman
01-20-2004, 06:45 AM
Many people supported Nazi Germany in the U.S in the 30's.

Mr. Charles Lindbergh was an outstanding aviator and a gentleman. He should be kept out of this European whining thread.

The Clansman

Rajvosa
01-20-2004, 06:50 AM
SOme of my favourite cigarette brands, in no special order http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Lucky Strike (strong ****, cough cough!)
Camel
Marlboro

http://bhstring.net/tuzlauslikama/tuzlarije/ovihdana/ljiljanm.jpg

Golf GTI Edition 2.0 16v

Cossack_UA
01-20-2004, 07:43 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by DaBallz:
While I'm railing away about the previously
posted crap, show me how much money was repaid
to America for WWII hardware and war loans...
Show mw ANY Russian Lend Lease returns or payments.
Show me ANY German, British or French repayments
of reconstruction loans.....

d***<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Ok there were 3 major economies that kept on working during WWII to resist Nazi Germany: US, Soviet Union, and Britain. Both Russia and Britain consumed 100% of their output wright away. America, on the other hand, was in advantage purely due to its geographical location. America's economy was pushed as hard as economies of USSR and Britain in the war effort but American workers could work in safety, which is a very important morale boosting factor. Compare productivity and quality of an American worker who works in worm and safe conditions with a relatively decent pay and a Russian 16-year old male workes and women who worked behind Ural montains in freezing factories and hungry. I dont even mention such a motivator as pay because money was pretty much worthless in USSR during WWII. Many people had them, they couldnt buy anything for them.
How do you thing wealth of a nation is created? Correct, by productive and efficient workers and by efficient use of recourses. America jumped ahead of the world simply because its isolation and not because of some rediculous conspiracy theory you people came up with.

horseback
01-20-2004, 09:57 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Cossack_UA:
Ok there were 3 major economies that kept on working during WWII to resist Nazi Germany: US, Soviet Union, and Britain. Both Russia and Britain consumed 100% of their output wright away. America, on the other hand, was in advantage purely due to its geographical location. America's economy was pushed as hard as economies of USSR and Britain in the war effort but American workers could work in safety, which is a very important morale boosting factor. Compare productivity and quality of an American worker who works in worm and safe conditions with a relatively decent pay and a Russian 16-year old male workes and women who worked behind Ural montains in freezing factories and hungry. I dont even mention such a motivator as pay because money was pretty much worthless in USSR during WWII. Many people had them, they couldnt buy anything for them.
How do you thing wealth of a nation is created? Correct, by productive and efficient workers and by efficient use of recourses. America jumped ahead of the world simply because its isolation and not because of some rediculous conspiracy theory you people came up with.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

One factor you did not mention was SIZE. The US, with a population of around 150 million had a vastly larger capacity than either Great Britain or the USSR, and had not re-expanded to its 'normal' pre-Depression full capacity before entering the war. Even so, in terms of raw capacity, if not technology, America was probably already the world's greatest industrial power before the war began. Being safely out of reach of its enemies only helped emphasize its strength.

Britain's population was less than 50 million people, of which a much larger portion were either in the military or supporting it directly. It had not been producing enough food domestically to feed itself for some time, and was dependent upon seaborne trade for most of its raw materials.

The Soviet Union (population approx. 240 millions, give or take a famine or purge) was still attempting to 'bootstrap' itself from an agrarian subsistance economy into an industrial economy with a primary emphasis on machines that make machines & military applications before the war. Then it had to move all its industry beyond the reach of the Germans.

However, the great industrial production of all these countries was paid for with money 'borrowed' from future generations (you and me). The interest payments we all received have been in the form of not being under Nazi or Imperial Japanese domination, and the technological fallout of the advances in various sciences (including increased economic efficiencies in the private sector).

Throw in the benefits of a better educated middle class (at least in the US) due to the subsidy of higher education for veterans, coupled with our never having had our industrial centers attacked, and it can be argued that America is much better off materially than it would have been had the war been averted (I mean the whole war, not just US involvement).

The United States' relatively whole economy allowed us to 'seed' the damaged and destroyed economies in the non Communist Bloc countries. In a very real sense, this was not an entirely altruistic act(although few Americans realized it at the time), because you cannot create wealth without trade, and we needed someone to trade with.

Cheers

horseback

"Here's your new Mustangs, boys. You can learn to fly'em on the way to the target. Cheers!" -LTCOL Don Blakeslee, 4th FG CO, February 27th, 1944

Willey
01-20-2004, 02:38 PM
LOL some1 dug this one out http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif. And - AFAIK - it was LOCKED in the old forums... http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gifhttp://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gifhttp://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif. That just was a joke, posted in a time where many xxx won the war threads were around http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif.

jensenpark
01-20-2004, 03:37 PM
"The Soviet Union (population approx. 240 millions, give or take a famine or purge)..."

Thats funny Horseback. Can you imagine Stalin asking the census bureau what the population was..."I dunno Comrade, is this a purge year or a famine year?"

http://images.ucomics.com/images/doonesbury/strip/thecast/duke2.jpg

"Death before unconsciousness" - Uncle Duke

SkyChimp
01-20-2004, 06:52 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by johann_thor:
my intent is clear ... what are you insane ??? what intent ???? ... to make nazis seem what .. ??? better ???

and you quoted....

Nice try, Johann, A "simple minded" person would accept your explanation at face value, but your very first post in this thread reveals what you are really trying it intimate: that the US funded and somehow supported the Nazis, if not directly, then indirectly.


.....they were ..... !!! we all wanted them to wipe out the commie bastards in the east !!!!


and then i said.......

"Thyssen's silesian steel industry (and most of german war industry) was funded and partially owned by american industrialists"

fact !!!! as i have proven before !!!!!


my intent ????

you lame-*** steriotypical yankee !!!! think I am taking the cause of illiterate low-class nazi scum in order to prove your version of puritan-american-psuedo-history(oh i forgot they dont teach history in your "schools")

at least you did not debunk anything of the facts i mentioned !

i have had more intelligent debates with you before. what is your problem .... did i hit a soft spot ???<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>



Also you wrote

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>
you can't even try to discuss history on this forum without getting attacked by open-mouthed inbread freaks trying to label you as a nazi for simply stating the fact that relations between nazi-germany and USA was substantial at least during the pre-war years.

**** you very much !!!

"Patriotism is the last resort of a scoundrel" - Samuel Johnson<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


"Yankee." "Inbread freak." "Puritan-american-psuedo-history." Wow, Johann, insecure about something? If I didn't know any better, I'd think you were an anti-American bigot, too. But I know, I know, you're not http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Also, did I lable you as a Nazi? Hmmmm? Or are you so upset that you've lost your composure and started to make things up?

You may present yourself as a chior-boy seeking only to "educate" the folks here on this board. But I reiterate, your intent was to suggest that the rise of Naziism is in some way the responsibility of the US. Now you may use terms like "commie bastards" that you feel may appeal to the "average American" so that they are more accepting of you position, but your patronization is transparent.

Get over yourself, you don't fool as many people as you think.

Regards,
SkyChimp
http://members.cox.net/rowlandparks/skychimp.jpg

horseback
01-20-2004, 06:56 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by jensenpark:
"The Soviet Union (population approx. 240 millions, give or take a famine or purge)..."

Thats funny Horseback. Can you imagine Stalin asking the census bureau what the population was..."I dunno Comrade, is this a purge year or a famine year?"

"Death before unconsciousness" - Uncle Duke<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

There's a wonderful word in the Russian language for just that kind of situation. Stalin's response would have been "Nichyevo."

In context, it can mean never mind, it doesn't matter, or it can't be helped.

Cheers

horseback

"Here's your new Mustangs, boys. You can learn to fly'em on the way to the target. Cheers!" -LTCOL Don Blakeslee, 4th FG CO, February 27th, 1944

hotspace
01-20-2004, 06:58 PM
No it didn't, it was the American's http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_razz.gif

He He

Hot Space

DaBallz
01-21-2004, 03:56 AM
Got to admit, money won the cold war.
All the weapons and troops you could
muster did not shake either side.
But the lack of cash and more importantly
the lack of finance did the Soviet Union in.

The whole free world helped the MASSIVE US build up
in the 1980's. There was NO WAY the Soviets could follow.
Add to the mix a Polish Pope named John Paul
and Ronnie Regan's pet program "Star Wars".
Those were two weapons the Soviets could not
hope to match.

Da

johann_thor
01-21-2004, 07:23 AM
no - skychimp - you simply managed to get me angry - implying i was a nazi ..... and worse ... saying that i am trying to fool people with distorted information.

i am not making things up .... and i left all conclusions to be made by you.

and yes i did use terms like "nazi-scum" and "commie-bastards" ... not to try to please anybody .... i am a social-democrat and I loath extremists on both sides (left and right)

I am trying ... not to blame the US. but in a way I do blame UK and USA for not supporting the social-democrats of germany (and France for different reasons) - but supporting instead the nazi's ..... who labeled the social-democrats as commie-collaborators.

and i mentioned the russian invasion of Poland 1923 for one reason ..... it's goal was to link up with the commies in germany.

supporting germany in the 30's was seen as a good deed. a strong germany was the most effective way to hold the russians back. or do you really think the cold war started in 1945?http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

so please don't try to pin on me some motives like wanting to take the blame off germans.

and by the way - sorry for the name calling - i have a short fuse http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

horseback
01-21-2004, 10:00 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by johann_thor:
no - skychimp - you simply managed to get me angry - implying i was a nazi ..... and worse ... saying that i am trying to fool people with distorted information.

i am not making things up .... and i left all conclusions to be made by you.

and yes i did use terms like "nazi-scum" and "commie-bastards" ... not to try to please anybody .... i am a social-democrat and I loath extremists on both sides (left and right)

I am trying ... not to blame the US. but in a way I do blame UK and USA for not supporting the social-democrats of germany (and France for different reasons) - but supporting instead the nazi's ..... who labeled the social-democrats as commie-collaborators.

and i mentioned the russian invasion of Poland 1923 for one reason ..... it's goal was to link up with the commies in germany.

supporting germany in the 30's was seen as a good deed. a strong germany was the most effective way to hold the russians back. or do you really think the cold war started in 1945?http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

so please don't try to pin on me some motives like wanting to take the blame off germans.

and by the way - sorry for the name calling - i have a short fuse http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Johan-

I don't have a dog in this fight, but it looks to me as though you're making some assumptions about the way things work in America. Our cultures are very different, and make some very different basic assumptions.

I, for one, have no idea what a social-democrat is. It seems almost rude to me (and most Americans) to concern ourselves with the internal politics of other sovereign nations, just as we are offended when foreigners presume that they know what the hell is going on in our politics (if WE don't know half the time, how can you?). That's speaking as a private person, mind you.

Foreign policy is left in the hands of the Executive branch of our government (State Department,under the direction of the Presidents chosen Secretary of State), and most of the rest of us expect the government to not provoke wars or screw up business relationships, which might affect our jobs.

If they do one of these things to our detriment, they are expelled from office when (or sometimes before) they run for reelection. Vietnam and the Allende/Chile thing had as much to do with Nixon's leaving office as the Watergate Investigation, for instance.

Only in the last 60 years has the United States taken an active interest in European affairs, beyond trade issues. We are composed primarily of people whose ancestors left Europe because they wanted a chance for a better life. Once they achieved that better life, beyond the welfare of near relatives, they had no interest in what was happening across the Atlantic.

After the 'dissing' we got at Versailles, American disaffection with Europe only increased. So we withdrew back across the ocean, and went back to making a better life. Try to remember that at that time, traveling to Europe required a two week trip aboard a ship from New York (never mind Chicago or San Francisco, which could add another month each way). Europe was a world away, a Babylon of languages and morals to the average assimilated second or third generation American in the 1920s.

Investments in business ventures were made by individuals on the basis of potential return, not approval of internal politics, and much of the information used to make the decisions were based on word of mouth, personal relationships, or observations made during relatively short journies. From a broker's standpoint, a stable Germany would be a better investment than an unstable one. How Hitler or Mussolini "got the trains to run on time" might have been tsked over, but doing more than that might have been seen as meddling, and unprofitable meddling at that.

Communism, being seen as provoking some of the worst of the union-management violence, was treated with suspicion, and socialism never caught on openly here because of it. Socialists overseas were associated with international communism, which had proclaimed its hostility to our own system. Even if the diplomats stationed in Germany in the late '20s understood the difference, it wouldn't have stood up to public examination at the time if a socialist faction received even unofficial support from the US government.

Particularly during the period that Hitler actually rose to power, the US government was a little distracted by a thing called the Great Depression. Germany was France and Britain's responsibility (as they had made abundantly clear at Versailles), and a source of skilled immigrant workers for us. There was no official US policy driving Hitler into control of the German government, and very little evidence of a coherent unofficial policy of any sort. The Hoover and Roosevelt administrations had other problems occupying them.

The fact is, until 1942, America was not considered a Great Power. A large rich land, certainly, but not a mover and shaker in the traditional sense of a world power. Our Army was pathetically small, our air forces negligible, and our Navy, while large, was more concerned with protection of trade than projection of power.

What individual wealthy US citizens did was their personal responsibility, and aimed at improving their own personal situations. I doubt that a Henry Ford had any appreciation of Hitler's nature or intentions. His concern was that his business managers told him that heavy industry in Germany was a good investment.

Conspiracy theories are interesting, but ultimately most of them turn out to be just another exercise in denial. It's hard for me to believe that the rise of Fascism in the world was not the result of a confluence of many factors, not just economic and political, but philosophical and moral, and most if not all of them out of any small group of people's control.

cheers

horseback

"Here's your new Mustangs, boys. You can learn to fly'em on the way to the target. Cheers!" -LTCOL Don Blakeslee, 4th FG CO, February 27th, 1944

johann_thor
01-21-2004, 10:31 AM
I totally agree horseback - nice reading indeed.

just one point.....I never said that US government was responsible for these investments - not at all. but US industrialists were. in fact it was the US government who seized all assets of those trans-atlantic corporations in 1942. (not entirly until 17.nov 1942) however - they were returned after the war (UBC for example) - and men like E. Roland Harriman cashed in serious amounts of money from their dealings with nazis.

does this matter at all ?
should they have been punished ?

that is open for debate

johann_thor
01-21-2004, 10:42 AM
also horseback ..... i think it is vital to understand what a social-democrat is to understand history in the 30's

the Swedish found a solution to what was called the great depression. they fusioned together what was the best of socialism and american/british capitalism. hiring people to work on social-programmes that would be good for the country in the long run - and could be privatized later. and all this WITHOUT comprimizing the free market or capitalistic values.

and what does that have to do with the US ?? - well this was the model that Roosevelt used for the "New Deal". he could point to a country where social-programmes were used alongside capitalism with good success. hence the WPA of the 30's.

so - social-democrats shaped modern politics as we know them. in contrast the british never got any "New Deal". all they got was "royal-sympathy" for the poor. much like the Hoover administration handled the depression before Roosevelt.

disclaimer : this is not meant to be intimidating ... but only a bit of information.

jensenpark
01-21-2004, 01:52 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by DaBallz:
Got to admit, money won the cold war.
All the weapons and troops you could
muster did not shake either side.
But the lack of cash and more importantly
the lack of finance did the Soviet Union in.

The whole free world helped the MASSIVE US build up
in the 1980's. There was NO WAY the Soviets could follow.
Add to the mix a Polish Pope named John Paul
and Ronnie Regan's pet program "Star Wars".
Those were two weapons the Soviets could not
hope to match.

Da<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

You are dead on Da. This must be a first in this thread...someone agreeing with an earlier post!

http://images.ucomics.com/images/doonesbury/strip/thecast/duke2.jpg

"Death before unconsciousness" - Uncle Duke

SkyChimp
01-21-2004, 06:45 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by johann_thor:
no - skychimp - you simply managed to get me angry - implying i was a nazi ..... and worse ... saying that i am trying to fool people with distorted information.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I never implied you were a Nazi, nor did I ever say your information was wrong.


<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>
i am not making things up .... and i left all conclusions to be made by you.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I didn't say you did make things up. Can you point out where I did?



<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>
and yes i did use terms like "nazi-scum" and "commie-bastards" ... not to try to please anybody .... i am a social-democrat and I loath extremists on both sides (left and right)
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I loathe people that can't take a stand.



<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>
I am trying ... not to blame the US. but in a way I do blame UK and USA for not supporting the social-democrats of germany (and France for different reasons) - but supporting instead the nazi's ..... who labeled the social-democrats as commie-collaborators.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I thought you weren't trying to say that.



<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>
and i mentioned the russian invasion of Poland 1923 for one reason ..... it's goal was to link up with the commies in germany.

supporting germany in the 30's was seen as a good deed. a strong germany was the most effective way to hold the russians back. or do you really think the cold war started in 1945?http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Possibly



<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>
so please don't try to pin on me some motives like wanting to take the blame off germans.

and by the way - sorry for the name calling - i have a short fuse http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

S-ok.

Regards,
SkyChimp
http://members.cox.net/rowlandparks/skychimp.jpg

horseback
01-21-2004, 08:45 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by johann_thor:
also horseback ..... i think it is vital to understand what a social-democrat is to understand history in the 30's

the Swedish found a solution to what was called the great depression. they fusioned together what was the best of socialism and american/british capitalism. hiring people to work on social-programmes that would be good for the country in the long run - and could be privatized later. and all this WITHOUT comprimizing the free market or capitalistic values.

and what does that have to do with the US ?? - well this was the model that Roosevelt used for the "New Deal". he could point to a country where social-programmes were used alongside capitalism with good success. hence the WPA of the 30's.

so - social-democrats shaped modern politics as we know them. in contrast the british never got any "New Deal". all they got was "royal-sympathy" for the poor. much like the Hoover administration handled the depression before Roosevelt.

disclaimer : this is not meant to be intimidating ... but only a bit of information.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Interesting and informative, Johan. There are a number of American historians and economists who maintain today that Roosevelt's social programs probably extended the Depression in the US until the wartime surge.

I would question whether socialism, even the "lite" variety, is a good idea in a country trying to assimilate as diverse (I hate that word: it's become a buzzword for people who see a virtue in acceptance of 'different' ideas without examination) a population as America's. It works when you start with a clear set of agreed upon cultural standards of employment and personal responsibility being a good thing, but over time, the tendency is for humanity to gravitate to the lowest common denominator.

It's been my lifelong experience that virtue averages out, but stupidity and evil are cumulative. I'm with Adam Smith; I believe that the best way to get people to work and behave themselves is to make it in their immediate and obvious best interests to do so.

Cheers

horseback

"Here's your new Mustangs, boys. You can learn to fly'em on the way to the target. Cheers!" -LTCOL Don Blakeslee, 4th FG CO, February 27th, 1944