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The_Sphinx
11-21-2011, 04:49 PM
After doing the 7 master assassin missions with my apprentices to upgrade them to den master, I can fairly say my opinion tilted on the Assassins as an "organisation of peace".

During both Brotherhood and Revelations the Assassins take highly questionable decisions and act accordingly. In abstraction the Assassins and Templars have the same goal [world peace], but their means of reaching that goal is different. Where the Templars try to get there by force and finance, the Assassins try it by "keeping the world free from tyranny".

Amusingly though, the Assassins are nothing short of a fascist regime, deciding about life or death in the wink of an eye, relentlessly killing anyone standing in their way. They "clean up" cities by opening stores but ask money from them in return. You know who else does that? The maffia.


In Revelations, Ezio destroys and subsequently kills half the city of Cappedocia just to destroy a small crate of guns.
He also kills a completely innocent man based on nothing but what the Sultan's grandson told him. All throughout the story [especially obvious during the faction missions] Ezio acts like Niko from GTAIV - he wants to avoid violence but has no qualms killing entire truckloads of people in the process.
Remember in ACII when Ezio goes in the catacombs and there are two guards there? One of them found some gold while guarding, and says to the other guard: "I can't wait to show this to my wife tonight. She's going to be very happy with the extra money". Enter Ezio, who swings down and stabs both guards in the throat "because they're Templars".

However, the most obvious examples of the flaws in the assassin's way are the 7 apprentice missions. You basically end up each mission killing someone who supposedly "deserves to die", no questions asked. Your apprentice tells you that someone is doing something bad, and these acts differ from bribe to extorsion to murder.

Now here's the core of my thread: When you kill your target, you get the classic AC-style death monologue. Almost all of these show that the Assassins had no idea what the hell they were doing. The target somewhat explains why he/she did what he/she did. One person was trying to get the local stores in check by keeping the price rate at a certain level. Another person was shunned by society and chose to steal as a last resort to get food. Another person was treated horribly by certain people and decided to murder them - a simple revenge scheme Ezio has been guilty of doing countless times.


I know it's just a videogame and most of these missions are just "filler" to give the game some activities, but when you focuss on overall story and morality as much as this franchise does, that morality has to be crystal clear. In the original Assassin's Creed, there were 9 templars, those were your targets. You were not supposed to kill anyone else, unless attacked by them. You were to avoid soldiers, not fight them.

In the subsequent games, pretty much every guard suddenly is a Templar. This is probably done to justify Ezio killing boatloads of people, since 'they're just templars right so who cares'. But as a result the Assassins as an organisation because just as evil, if not worse as the Templars ever were.

Ever since ACII I am rooting for the Templars/Abstergo, and with every game after that I feel more confident in this decision.

ACSineQuaNon
11-21-2011, 05:14 PM
You said it! Seriously, I've been having the same qualms ever since AC2. I actually posted a thread similar to this 2 seconds ago without reading this one. IDK if you're trolling or not, but the Assassins are kind of sketchy.

Edit: I also feel like Ubisoft is copping out by labeling almost every single guard as a Templar. These are random people, and they don't deserve to be assassinated.

The_Sphinx
11-21-2011, 05:20 PM
Originally posted by ACSineQuaNon:
You said it! Seriously, I've been having the same qualms ever since AC2. I actually posted a thread similar to this 2 seconds ago without reading this one. IDK if you're trolling or not, but the Assassins are kind of sketchy.

I'm definately not trolling. I don't think a troll would take the time to write that entire post.

I guess my point is that the games do a very poor job explaining me why exactly the Assassins are good and the Templars are evil.
The line is so blurred and Ezio does so many afwul things that it is hard to keep track of "right" and "wrong". It is normal to have a city filled with guards, but there should be a clear difference between a templar and a random guard standing on a rooftop to earn a living for his wife and kids. That's why I try and sneap up/knock out most guards on rooftops - I'm not a homicidal maniac.


Especially in Revelations there is little to no attention to the Assassins versus Templars plot, it's more of a medievil Indiana Jones.

laxplyr1112
11-21-2011, 06:46 PM
i agree mostly although acII ezio didnt actually truly join the assassins and follow the creed until late in that game mostly he was using it as a means of revenge, brotherhood i think you could still make a case for ezio but i agree with this game its tough too and they even have altair make it clear that if they havent harmed an innocent dont kill them proving that they havent forgotton the whole creed part of the game

ForsakEnd
11-21-2011, 06:52 PM
Then I guess its working the Templars/Abstergo goals of controlling the minds of the people has worked on YOU.
The fascist regime would have to be the Templars as they seek a perfect world/peace through force and control much like the nazis.
Assassins believe man should have a choice of to have freedoms and rights.
Since a judicial system at these times were non existence or one sided death was a way to deal enemies of a cause.
mafia dont open stores they take over already open business and extort money for protection.As its not really explained I assumed shop owners donated to the cause, if it wasnt for the Assassins the shops would still be closed.
But in the end it comes down to if want peace and are willing to sacrifice freedom, one's own choice to live how they like.Or live in freedom,the many colors that life has to offer, and accept the flaws of humanity.The choice is yours unless you are a Templar then its not.

Your right its a video game and things SHOULD be crystal clear but reality isnt, which makes the AC series deep and produce debates such as these.


"I'll make the sacrifice for the greater good."
?Ezio

laxplyr1112
11-21-2011, 06:55 PM
well ezio renovated those shops in brother hood it was my impression he basically owned the shops so as owner he gets a profit thats how i see it atleast

ACSineQuaNon
11-21-2011, 07:44 PM
Originally posted by ForsakEnd:
Then I guess its working the Templars/Abstergo goals of controlling the minds of the people has worked on YOU.
The fascist regime would have to be the Templars as they seek a perfect world/peace through force and control much like the nazis.
Assassins believe man should have a choice of to have freedoms and rights.
Since a judicial system at these times were non existence or one sided death was a way to deal enemies of a cause.
mafia dont open stores they take over already open business and extort money for protection.As its not really explained I assumed shop owners donated to the cause, if it wasnt for the Assassins the shops would still be closed.
But in the end it comes down to if want peace and are willing to sacrifice freedom, one's own choice to live how they like.Or live in freedom,the many colors that life has to offer, and accept the flaws of humanity.The choice is yours unless you are a Templar then its not.

Your right its a video game and things SHOULD be crystal clear but reality isnt, which makes the AC series deep and produce debates such as these.


"I'll make the sacrifice for the greater good."
?Ezio

This isn't even a question of free will, it's a matter of right or wrong. The point is that Ezio has done things, terrible things, without even taking the consequences into consideration. He has killed random city guards who aren't even Templars. His actions have directly led to the death of innocent civilians. These were considered crimes even at the time. A working judicial system did exist. However, it shouldn't even be needed to judge the inhumane actions of the assassins. These are not depictions of humanity's flaws; rather, they are forces of inhumanity.

What you propose, to simply "accept the flaws of humanity," is dangerous. To ignore any means of instructed, disciplined progress is unrealistic. I'm not an advocate of brainwashing the masses, but I don't believe people should always be allowed to act on their instincts. Often, our first impressions are incorrect and the actions that result from them, ill-advised.

Il_Divo
11-22-2011, 04:08 AM
Originally posted by ACSineQuaNon:

This isn't even a question of free will, it's a matter of right or wrong. The point is that Ezio has done things, terrible things, without even taking the consequences into consideration. He has killed random city guards who aren't even Templars. His actions have directly led to the death of innocent civilians. These were considered crimes even at the time. A working judicial system did exist. However, it shouldn't even be needed to judge the inhumane actions of the assassins. These are not depictions of humanity's flaws; rather, they are forces of inhumanity.

A fair point, but no one said the Assassin's Creed was perfect, which is something Sean points out in AC2, "making the choice of killing". What I'm curious about is why Revelations made some of this clear to you, when AC1 allowed Altair to kill random guards with free reign. The game always left the notion of what constitutes an "innocent" ambiguous, since Altair/Ezio don't have a detailed account of the various crimes each guard has committed throughout his entire life.



What you propose, to simply "accept the flaws of humanity," is dangerous. To ignore any means of instructed, disciplined progress is unrealistic. I'm not an advocate of brainwashing the masses, but I don't believe people should always be allowed to act on their instincts. Often, our first impressions are incorrect and the actions that result from them, ill-advised.

I think the important question is: why do we assume that every Assassin's decision is going to be correct? Yes, all our protagonists up to this point have been assassins so obviously we're going to be presented with their perspective in a more positive light, but the idea that they are entitled to kill anyone they deem " a threat" should be sending up red flags regarding the morality of their actions. They don't seem to have a clear checks and balances system in place to decide when they've crossed the line.

I think the fact that we've seen the Assassins kill both targets of evil and (accidentally) of good is a testament to both the strengths and weakness of their philosophy. In some cases, it's more shoehorned than others, but the idea that they would only ever target individuals of pure evil (imo) would be a simplistic approach to their philosophy.

Radman500
11-26-2011, 09:26 AM
the various crimes each guard has committed throughout his entire life.

The Assassins are not perfect, but they are much better then the templars

the templars in the AC universe SET up WW2, for there own means,

Yairo809
11-29-2011, 09:06 PM
actually if you have read the assassins creed novels he doesnt kill all these guards in a homicidal way, only kills when there is no other way of completing his objective. ezio doesnt kill countless guards, we the player kill countless guards because its a game and would not be as successful if they took away that option, however i cant vouch much for acr, he did destroy cappadocia in order to cripple the templar's main base of training the soldiers and what not.

SaMuRaI197
11-30-2011, 07:22 AM
Both Brotherhood and Revelations show that the Assassins are not without flaw. In Brotherhood there is a moment where a character tells Ezio that he is no better than his enemies, who kill innocent people to get what they want, when he himself kills hundreds in the process of hunting his targets down. And in Revelations it is discussed that ultimately the goals of the rival factions are the same, where the Templars believe in control being the means for world peace and Assassins believing that a free mind will generate peace.
The creators of this game put a lot of thought into this. It is meant to make you ask if you are doing the right thing. Are you? Are you a slave to the controls placed in your life or do you educate yourself and be free? Do you tell others what to do to keep the peace or do you ruin the lives of others by exposing their flaws in order to educate the masses?
Nothing is true = Don't believe what you are told, research it yourself and make up your own mind.
Everything is permitted = Whatever choice you make is yours and yours alone. Stick to your decisions. Do what you must to achieve your goals but remember that every action you take has consequences.

jeremytwoface
11-30-2011, 09:51 AM
Ever since ACII I am rooting for the Templars/Abstergo, and with every game after that I feel more confident in this decision.


You bring up very valid points and I can't say I disagree with you. I also thought the last Cappadocia mission was a litte disturbing... just a bunch of people suffocating because Ezio wanted to destroy some guns? Just dump them in the sea or something. They even said that most of the guns don't even work.

But anyway, I will say that this topic has been part of the game since day one... Even in the first AC, you go about, blindly, killing the 9 Templars without much reason besides the fact that your Mentor told you to do it. And actually, he turns out to be only using you for personal gain.

It's something that comes up a lot in the story line. And I think that the writers do that on purpose.

You make a lot of good points though.

erudit0
11-30-2011, 11:05 AM
Originally posted by SaMuRaI197:
Both Brotherhood and Revelations show that the Assassins are not without flaw. In Brotherhood there is a moment where a character tells Ezio that he is no better than his enemies, who kill innocent people to get what they want, when he himself kills hundreds in the process of hunting his targets down. And in Revelations it is discussed that ultimately the goals of the rival factions are the same, where the Templars believe in control being the means for world peace and Assassins believing that a free mind will generate peace.
The creators of this game put a lot of thought into this. It is meant to make you ask if you are doing the right thing. Are you? Are you a slave to the controls placed in your life or do you educate yourself and be free? Do you tell others what to do to keep the peace or do you ruin the lives of others by exposing their flaws in order to educate the masses?
Nothing is true = Don't believe what you are told, research it yourself and make up your own mind.
Everything is permitted = Whatever choice you make is yours and yours alone. Stick to your decisions. Do what you must to achieve your goals but remember that every action you take has consequences.

There's also the thing of right and wrong that seems to be disturbing people. Right and wrong is subjective and relative. As you well put it nothing is true hints at relativism again. Everything is permitted hints that rules are set by ourselves when in reality there could be no rules, therefore everything is permitted. What may be right for one person may be wrong for other person.

SaMuRaI197
11-30-2011, 05:25 PM
Precisely. So to Adnocana, right from the start it's not meant to be clear cut. The assassins do what they believe is right, and the Templar's do what they believe is right aswell. It's one side of the story that you see.

assassinato_862
11-30-2011, 10:27 PM
Hmm... what to make of this.

Well, let's put it this way:

In AC2,(we're focusing on Ezio now), his "executions" are a little more flashy and stylish to show his self-confident personality.

Now really, you don't really have to kill guards unless they get in the way of your goal and when those two guards
"I can't wait to show this to my wife tonight. She's going to be very happy with the extra money".

You don't HAVE to kill those guards you can just run straight past them. And there's the rest of the game really, you don't have to kill guards unless they either:
A: attacked you in which Ezio has no choice but to defend himself
B: When they directly risk the success of a mission.

Now in Brotherhood, Ezio is older and more experienced in combat. So maybe his self-confidence in his combat skills are better- hence even flashier kills/kill-streaks. That's my excuse. And still here, Ezio doesn't really kill innocents. He only kills those that will kill him . And so on~

Now onto Revelations. Ezio is old, tired, and wants to settle down. Here Ubisoft claims Ezio is more wise, but really all I see here is no follow-through with that; except when teaching his students. First reason is when Ezio kills Tarik with no real investigation like in his younger years. Second reason is when Ezio blows up Cappadocia, there should've been more of a thought process on that.

So what does this show? Exactly what I said about him being tired. Ezio really seems to be uncharacteristic. He seems to want the "quick way out" on everything. His kills are messy and brutal and more or less downright disrespectful. Especially when he killed Leandros; he went against everything Mario told him to show respect for the dead. So let's remember, Ezio is old in Revelations and very tired of this Assassin life-style. Even shown in Assassins Creed: Embers he gets angry when a fellow Assassin finally meets him when she went through so much to get to him.

So...yeah.

souNdwAve89
12-01-2011, 12:21 AM
Originally posted by assassinato_862:
Hmm... what to make of this.

Well, let's put it this way:

In AC2,(we're focusing on Ezio now), his "executions" are a little more flashy and stylish to show his self-confident personality.

Now really, you don't really have to kill guards unless they get in the way of your goal and when those two guards <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content"> "I can't wait to show this to my wife tonight. She's going to be very happy with the extra money".

You don't HAVE to kill those guards you can just run straight past them. And there's the rest of the game really, you don't have to kill guards unless they either:
A: attacked you in which Ezio has no choice but to defend himself
B: When they directly risk the success of a mission.

Now in Brotherhood, Ezio is older and more experienced in combat. So maybe his self-confidence in his combat skills are better- hence even flashier kills/kill-streaks. That's my excuse. And still here, Ezio doesn't really kill innocents. He only kills those that will kill him . And so on~

Now onto Revelations. Ezio is old, tired, and wants to settle down. Here Ubisoft claims Ezio is more wise, but really all I see here is no follow-through with that; except when teaching his students. First reason is when Ezio kills Tarik with no real investigation like in his younger years. Second reason is when Ezio blows up Cappadocia, there should've been more of a thought process on that.

So what does this show? Exactly what I said about him being tired. Ezio really seems to be uncharacteristic. He seems to want the "quick way out" on everything. His kills are messy and brutal and more or less downright disrespectful. Especially when he killed Leandros; he went against everything Mario told him to show respect for the dead. So let's remember, Ezio is old in Revelations and very tired of this Assassin life-style. Even shown in Assassins Creed: Embers he gets angry when a fellow Assassin finally meets him when she went through so much to get to him.

So...yeah. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Agreed. The excuse of "killing many people" is ambiguous. We do not know the real amount of people Ezio killed. Like you mentioned, you can easily avoid the guards by waiting for them to move or just out run them, seriously. Ezio was reckless with the Tarik mission, but Suleiman told him to kill him if needed. Ezio did want a "quick way out" if you put it in that perspective.

Silvrslide
12-04-2011, 01:51 PM
That's the point. Neither of the group are good, their intentions are though, and the means to do those good intentions are questionable. Using power to control people, hiding in the shadows to kill those who use that power to control. Neither is justifiable. This is the kind of middle ground we saw in AC1, neither of the Orders were evil per say, but neither good.

As for Ezio, he was tired. He was weary of being an assassin and you see that for his disregard for the creed. Killing innocents, disrespecting those he has killed "the first guy and then the renegade" He just wanted to be done, and he was.

Ferrith
12-05-2011, 07:00 AM
Originally posted by erudit0:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by SaMuRaI197:
Both Brotherhood and Revelations show that the Assassins are not without flaw. In Brotherhood there is a moment where a character tells Ezio that he is no better than his enemies, who kill innocent people to get what they want, when he himself kills hundreds in the process of hunting his targets down. And in Revelations it is discussed that ultimately the goals of the rival factions are the same, where the Templars believe in control being the means for world peace and Assassins believing that a free mind will generate peace.
The creators of this game put a lot of thought into this. It is meant to make you ask if you are doing the right thing. Are you? Are you a slave to the controls placed in your life or do you educate yourself and be free? Do you tell others what to do to keep the peace or do you ruin the lives of others by exposing their flaws in order to educate the masses?
Nothing is true = Don't believe what you are told, research it yourself and make up your own mind.
Everything is permitted = Whatever choice you make is yours and yours alone. Stick to your decisions. Do what you must to achieve your goals but remember that every action you take has consequences.

There's also the thing of right and wrong that seems to be disturbing people. Right and wrong is subjective and relative. As you well put it nothing is true hints at relativism again. Everything is permitted hints that rules are set by ourselves when in reality there could be no rules, therefore everything is permitted. What may be right for one person may be wrong for other person. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Thank you!
People keep talking about right and wrong, black and white, and they seem to forget that many things in life fall into the less travelled and explored gray area.


Originally posted by ACSineQuaNon:
What you propose, to simply "accept the flaws of humanity," is dangerous. To ignore any means of instructed, disciplined progress is unrealistic. I'm not an advocate of brainwashing the masses, but I don't believe people should always be allowed to act on their instincts. Often, our first impressions are incorrect and the actions that result from them, ill-advised.
This is how Templars would justify their efforts to manipulate and control the masses.
By this statement alone you forbid people to think for themselves, make their own decisions and learn from their mistakes.

orangebionic
12-05-2011, 01:20 PM
Originally posted by Ferrith:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by erudit0:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by SaMuRaI197:
Both Brotherhood and Revelations show that the Assassins are not without flaw. In Brotherhood there is a moment where a character tells Ezio that he is no better than his enemies, who kill innocent people to get what they want, when he himself kills hundreds in the process of hunting his targets down. And in Revelations it is discussed that ultimately the goals of the rival factions are the same, where the Templars believe in control being the means for world peace and Assassins believing that a free mind will generate peace.
The creators of this game put a lot of thought into this. It is meant to make you ask if you are doing the right thing. Are you? Are you a slave to the controls placed in your life or do you educate yourself and be free? Do you tell others what to do to keep the peace or do you ruin the lives of others by exposing their flaws in order to educate the masses?
Nothing is true = Don't believe what you are told, research it yourself and make up your own mind.
Everything is permitted = Whatever choice you make is yours and yours alone. Stick to your decisions. Do what you must to achieve your goals but remember that every action you take has consequences.

There's also the thing of right and wrong that seems to be disturbing people. Right and wrong is subjective and relative. As you well put it nothing is true hints at relativism again. Everything is permitted hints that rules are set by ourselves when in reality there could be no rules, therefore everything is permitted. What may be right for one person may be wrong for other person. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Thank you!
People keep talking about right and wrong, black and white, and they seem to forget that many things in life fall into the less travelled and explored gray area.


Originally posted by ACSineQuaNon:
What you propose, to simply "accept the flaws of humanity," is dangerous. To ignore any means of instructed, disciplined progress is unrealistic. I'm not an advocate of brainwashing the masses, but I don't believe people should always be allowed to act on their instincts. Often, our first impressions are incorrect and the actions that result from them, ill-advised.
This is how Templars would justify their efforts to manipulate and control the masses.
By this statement alone you forbid people to think for themselves, make their own decisions and learn from their mistakes. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

lol exactly!!!!
Also, storyline-wise Templars(abstergo) are in the very core of every totalitarism in history , as it seems they hell bent on establishing opressive system, enslaving mankind , also because of them we have to pay for electricity(which could be provided for free, by tesla misterious invention), also they responsible for WW2, and for keeping masses in poverty ever since.

This is actually great phylosophical/ethical provocation by creators of storyline :
- are we to agree that ppl are sheeps to be controlled ( and actually exploited) for they own good, and if we do, who supposed to do that, and how come they are better than those controlled by them?
or,
- are to agree that freedom is value in itself, despite all misfortunes which comes with that?

OP however rightly noticed that the assasins the same way like templars ,justify deeds by its means.

agitatedchimp
12-05-2011, 04:35 PM
I'm not going to judge the whole creed of assassins based on Ezio's actions.
To me when referring to the assassins i imagine Altair as the model perfect assassin, because i believe that he symbolizes the creed so strongly through his actions.
From Ezio and Altair we can see that their morality differs.
Which is justified with 'nothing is true everything is permitted' the debate of this philosophy will always end in the outcome of questioning the individuals (assassins) morality. The decision of whether you support the assassins or the templars questions your own individual morality. I believe that the assassins are righteous because despite the fact that they are not perfect and make some irrational decisions, they aim to achieve something much greater then the templars.
I would rather have Ezio kill hundreds/thousands of people out of necessity then have those people to succeed only to corrupt and control the planet.
would you rather kill people unjustly? or would you rather allow yourself to be stripped of your conscience control.