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View Full Version : Where's the logic? PF? BOB?



dgaggi
02-09-2005, 06:41 AM
OK,
Maybe someone can explain this to me because I'm a little confused. I'm new to all of this since release of PF. I'm quite happy with FB+AE+PF and feel like I've cheated myself by not getting them earlier. On the other hand, I get the feeling that I've been "HAD". PF was released (incomplete)and there was no server support in the begining, so I went out and bought FB+AE gold pack so that I would be more compatable. Now the focus is on BOB? So let me get this right, I have paid for an incomplete game and it's dead in roughly 6 months? Shouldn't the focus have been on putting out a completed product in the first place? Where is the logic in releasing an unfinished game that will get no future support(dead) and then six months later releasing a new game with a new engine? Maybe PF should have just been shelved and released with the new engine. Sounds and looks like they bit off more than they could chew and we're footing the bill. I really don't see myself purchasing BOB when it comes out. For all of you long time IL2 guys, put yourselves in the shoes of someone who just got into this game with PF.

dgaggi
02-09-2005, 06:41 AM
OK,
Maybe someone can explain this to me because I'm a little confused. I'm new to all of this since release of PF. I'm quite happy with FB+AE+PF and feel like I've cheated myself by not getting them earlier. On the other hand, I get the feeling that I've been "HAD". PF was released (incomplete)and there was no server support in the begining, so I went out and bought FB+AE gold pack so that I would be more compatable. Now the focus is on BOB? So let me get this right, I have paid for an incomplete game and it's dead in roughly 6 months? Shouldn't the focus have been on putting out a completed product in the first place? Where is the logic in releasing an unfinished game that will get no future support(dead) and then six months later releasing a new game with a new engine? Maybe PF should have just been shelved and released with the new engine. Sounds and looks like they bit off more than they could chew and we're footing the bill. I really don't see myself purchasing BOB when it comes out. For all of you long time IL2 guys, put yourselves in the shoes of someone who just got into this game with PF.

EnGaurde
02-09-2005, 06:48 AM
i can appreciate why youre unimpressed.

ivce always been a sim fan, back when Creative bundled Chuck Yeager with thier hardware?

ive seen the ground breaking, genre re-inventing IL2 land.

all i can suggest is that you wait, and judge BoB by its reviews, not its siblings.

269GA-Maxmars
02-09-2005, 06:52 AM
Don't worry, dgaggi.. The next big thing may be in the work (has been for a long time actually!), but that doesn't mean that nobody will play it or new things won't come.

Hyperlobby just recently had to double their cap limit since most evenings you had to wait in queue to get in.

Many dogfight servers are always populated (F16, Warclouds - 2 of them, Virtualpilots, Greatergreen just to name a few).

If you are part of a squad, the new VOW tournament is in beta.

BOE and TLD add a ton of offline replay value, utilities like DCG and UQMG stretch that replay value even further.

And that's not all. Many third party little gems add to the value of the game (IL2Mat Manager, IL2Stab, PFManager all have been updated for PF, other utils have appeared since then).

I'd say we have our hands full well into BoB release.

Do like me, play online whenever you have the chance: there are literally thousands of people out there that are dedicated and will entertain you with their skills, in a sim that is rock solid and beautiful to look at. IL-2 may show its age, but turn on perfect, max water, AA and effects and it will still thrill you even in free flight.

The sky is NOT falling.

VVS-Manuc
02-09-2005, 07:02 AM
I doubt that Oleg's BoB will be released before 2006 (3rd Q)

LEXX_Luthor
02-09-2005, 07:27 AM
Yep, you got HAD. The people that HAD you hope you do not read for yourself Oleg's now famous emil to CHAV_

This is what they don't want you to read...

~~> http://forums.ubi.com/eve/forums?a=tpc&s=400102&f=26310365&m=5011066372


Yep, I always said BoB 2006, I think early 2006 though. The world's software industry uses a different calender than we do, usually 1 year off.

arjisme
02-09-2005, 08:04 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by dgaggi:
[...]I'm quite happy with FB+AE+PF and feel like I've cheated myself by not getting them earlier. [...] For all of you long time IL2 guys, put yourselves in the shoes of someone who just got into this game with PF. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>You are playing the same game the rest of us are. New to the sim or not, you have the same functionality. The main difference is you are late to the show, so you missed out on a few years of playing time (and waiting for patches, expansions, and the like).

Capt._Tenneal
02-09-2005, 08:05 AM
@ dgaggi : BOB was planned way before Oleg even announced that they were working on a Pacific theater addition. I thought that AEP would be the culmination of the IL2 series and then BOB will be the new engine, then PF came along. So you can say that PF was the latecomer in this scenario.

WOLFMondo
02-09-2005, 08:09 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by dgaggi:
For all of you long time IL2 guys, put yourselves in the shoes of someone who just got into this game with PF. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Then go get Fb and AEP and you'll have enough stuff to keep you going till BoB is outhttp://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

papaboon
02-09-2005, 08:31 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> Maybe PF should have just been shelved and released with the new engine. Sounds and looks like they bit off more than they could chew and we're footing the bill. I really don't see myself purchasing BOB when it comes out. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

As posted earlier, you came to game in the fourth quater with 2 minutes to play and feel you haven't gotten your money's worth.
I can see your point but again, for those of us that have been here since the beginning( what like,11/01/2001) it's been a long and winding road.
This game still has a tremendous amount of playiblity left in it. It's a classic of the genre, and classics die hard!
There are still alot of great servers out there hosting games with a great bunch of people here that are more than willing help a new comer with any problem they have.

As far as BoB goes,give it a chance before condenming it!

269GA-Maxmars
02-09-2005, 08:46 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>
There are still alot of great servers out there hosting games with a great bunch of people here that are more than willing help a new comer with any problem they have. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Let me correct you: there have never been so many servers hosting games! This, if anything, is the best moment to be "in".

I can remember the first times. For a few months after fb (until well into the summer), world+dog was waiting for the first patch, and great suffering was upon the forums.

Then other patches came and went, and brought with them endless discussions.

And then, all the time spent waiting for AEP, and people could not play with each other because one had AEP and the other didn't.

Dedicated servers lagged behind patch releases therefore at times, for weeks, you didn't have reliable and fast servers.

What I mean is that you joined us in the best moment. The game will not get much better than this, but THIS is fantastic nonetheless. You have at least one full year before world+dog is again onto the next big thing.

One year, probably more. If you are smart, you will spend this year playing FB+AEP+PF.

papaboon
02-09-2005, 08:57 AM
Well, maybe not as many as the standard games, BFV or COD!

I stand corrected, sir! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

R_Mutt
02-09-2005, 09:45 AM
What a bunch of BS.

You know the point of playing PF is to have fun and kill some time, the point of PF is not updates and add-ons. Not to say they aren't nice but they shouldn't be the driving force behind playing these games. This game will be played right up to the time BoB is released, long after the last patch or add-on.

You have not been takin or HAD, what you've been is;

a.) incredibly spoiled with the support this particular developer gives to his games.

b.) a prolific whiner

c.) Another new user with seemingly intimate knowledge of the game and it's developer, who feels the need to pontificate in a forum about how disappointed they are with the game using the same reasons other new users with seemingly intimate knowledge of the game and it's developer have used in the past.

d.) Just finshed some programming for CFS4.

Spitf_ACE
02-09-2005, 10:20 AM
About a year ago a poll was held to see what theatre the community wanted to see Oleg develope next.

The winner was the Battle of Britain, but there were enough calls for the Pacific theatre for a member of Oleg's team to decide to create an add-on to include it within FB.

It was soon realised that PF could attract a lot of new fans to the series; so the decision was taken to make it available as a stand alone product, which could also be added on to FB.

The size of the project soon led to Oleg and the rest of the team getting involved to finish it, meaning BoB was pushed to one side for now.

Ubi (I think) weren't happy and wanted PF out of the way so Oleg could focus on what he was supposed to be doing in the first place, ie BoB.

So unfortunately PF was rushed out, and as a stand-alone was a bit disappointing. This should be addressed soon, as far is legally possible, with a free add-on/patch to download.

I paid full price for what is essentially an add-on to me. But I am not upset, the game I have now is unrivaled, and gives me a lot of enjoyment.

I don't understand what there is to be angry about; is the fact that you didn't find this game earlier?

Ok, I understand, it's because some planes aren't flyable. But, they will be, if allowed.

It's a shame Oleg put himself in this position, because he's getting the blame/abuse for something that wasn't his fault. He probably should of just kept away from PF. It had no future, and there wasn't the time to do it justice.

Hopefully in the end we will be left with something we are all happy with. (Although somehow I doubt it).

Sharkey888
02-09-2005, 10:36 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Spitf_ACE:
About a year ago a poll was held to see what theatre the community wanted to see Oleg develope next.

The winner was the Battle of Britain, but there were enough calls for the Pacific theatre for a member of Oleg's team to decide to create an add-on to include it within FB.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Wasn't it "THE MED" that won by a big margin?

Chivas
02-09-2005, 10:37 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by dgaggi:
OK,
Maybe someone can explain this to me because I'm a little confused. I'm new to all of this since release of PF. I'm quite happy with FB+AE+PF and feel like I've cheated myself by not getting them earlier. On the other hand, I get the feeling that I've been "HAD". PF was released (incomplete)and there was no server support in the begining, so I went out and bought FB+AE gold pack so that I would be more compatable. Now the focus is on BOB? So let me get this right, I have paid for an incomplete game and it's dead in roughly 6 months? Shouldn't the focus have been on putting out a completed product in the first place? Where is the logic in releasing an unfinished game that will get no future support(dead) and then six months later releasing a new game with a new engine? Maybe PF should have just been shelved and released with the new engine. Sounds and looks like they bit off more than they could chew and we're footing the bill. I really don't see myself purchasing BOB when it comes out. For all of you long time IL2 guys, put yourselves in the shoes of someone who just got into this game with PF. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

You haven't been ripped, you've gotten one of the biggest entertainment bargains of your life. If your a combat flight simmer, FB/AEP/PF will deliver endless hours of enjoyment for just a few dollars.

If you want to deny yourself BOB, that will be your loss.



I

asurob11963
02-09-2005, 10:37 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> About a year ago a poll was held to see what theatre the community wanted to see Oleg develope next.

The winner was the Battle of Britain, but there were enough calls for the Pacific theatre for a member of Oleg's team to decide to create an add-on to include it within FB.

It was soon realised that PF could attract a lot of new fans to the series; so the decision was taken to make it available as a stand alone product, which could also be added on to FB.

The size of the project soon led to Oleg and the rest of the team getting involved to finish it, meaning BoB was pushed to one side for now.

Ubi (I think) weren't happy and wanted PF out of the way so Oleg could focus on what he was supposed to be doing in the first place, ie BoB.

So unfortunately PF was rushed out, and as a stand-alone was a bit disappointing. This should be addressed soon, as far is legally possible, with a free add-on/patch to download.

I paid full price for what is essentially an add-on to me. But I am not upset, the game I have now is unrivaled, and gives me a lot of enjoyment.

I don't understand what there is to be angry about; is the fact that you didn't find this game earlier?

Ok, I understand, it's because some planes aren't flyable. But, they will be, if allowed.

It's a shame Oleg put himself in this position, because he's getting the blame/abuse for something that wasn't his fault. He probably should of just kept away from PF. It had no future, and there wasn't the time to do it justice.

Hopefully in the end we will be left with something we are all happy with. (Although somehow I doubt it).
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Im not unhappy with PF. I like it a great deal and fly it everyday. There are just details that I am missing...American battleships for instance...the devastator tpd...little things that would add immersion. I assumed this stuff would be there out of the box, when it wasnt, based on the support I had seen from this developer I was sure we would see it in the follow up...I think all most of us are asking for is what is going to be in the update...at least what they can guarantee. Information is the key to putting down a lot of the ongoing rancor...the lack of that has led to wild speculation.

dgaggi
02-09-2005, 11:00 AM
Thanks SpitF_Ace and everyone else,
Spit, what you say makes sense to me. It also supports my gut feeling that PF was a rush job. Don't get me wrong. I like the game, but I don't think it was a good idea to release it as a stand alone. I had to buy FB+AE (which I don't regret either) to really enjoy it online, since a majority of the severs were running the merged version. I don't want to sound anti Oleg either. I know that he must be tremendously busy and find it incredible that a game developer actually interacts with his end users. Thanks for the replys. I'm sure that there were more "newbs" that had the same feelings and hopefully this post will help them understand too.

veauger
02-09-2005, 11:59 AM
Well, Oleg isnt like the unanswerable dictator over his games either -- the publisher has a lot of say in what goes on. It could also have been that PF was put out there to keep up interest in the sim so that when BoB came out there would still be a nice big market. Not a ton of people care about flight sims these days, its all about the stupid consoles :\.

Hoatee
02-09-2005, 12:45 PM
Incomplete product? Maybe, but compare the ratio of incomplete to completed aspects of the game and the criticism does not seem correct.

Chuck_Older
02-09-2005, 01:16 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by dgaggi:
OK,
Maybe someone can explain this to me because I'm a little confused. I'm new to all of this since release of PF. I'm quite happy with FB+AE+PF and feel like I've cheated myself by not getting them earlier. On the other hand, I get the feeling that I've been "HAD". PF was released (incomplete)and there was no server support in the begining, so I went out and bought FB+AE gold pack so that I would be more compatable. Now the focus is on BOB? So let me get this right, I have paid for an incomplete game and it's dead in roughly 6 months? Shouldn't the focus have been on putting out a completed product in the first place? Where is the logic in releasing an unfinished game that will get no future support(dead) and then six months later releasing a new game with a new engine? Maybe PF should have just been shelved and released with the new engine. Sounds and looks like they bit off more than they could chew and we're footing the bill. I really don't see myself purchasing BOB when it comes out. For all of you long time IL2 guys, put yourselves in the shoes of someone who just got into this game with PF. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well, since you've been around since November of '04, once thing you have completely ignored is keeping up with the evolution of FB, PF and BoB

You must admit, you haven't done much looking into the subject other than the typical 'OMG!' posts here

If you had, you'd know why PF was released the way it was

You'd know why the FB series will not have support someday

You'd know the hows and whys of BoB


The short version: UbiSoft is the publisher. 1C:Maddox games is the developer. Ubi limited Oleg (read: 1C:Games) to only 2 CDs. Originally, PF was going to be an add-on to FB. Then the plan was to make it standalone AND an add-on. So, instead of wanting to give folks like you a "incomplete" game, they wanted to gibe you the opportunity to play even if you didn't have FB. But nobody cares about that...it's just "this game is incomplete".

Oleg had more content than 2 CDs worth. Some things had to be left out. No-one considers what or why.

There are legal concerns about the release of some aircraft. Should that legal angle have been sewed up prior to beginning work on PF? Sure it should have. But it happened, there's nothing to be done about it.

BoB is the next generation of combat flight sim. The future is going to happen whether we like it or not. I for one do not wish to see FB just continue on and on and on...it has serious limitations now. I could write a laundry list. But it is still quite good and I like it...but do I want something better? YES! I can see your point, but why should the progression of the flight sim hinge on when you jumped on the bandwagon?

The logic is devastatingly simple:

1C:Maddox Games has a long history of supporting their sims. They supported FB, and through it, PF, for too long. The punishment for that crime is people expect support to continue indefinitely. Instead of it being seen as a good thing that 1C didn't have to do, it's seen as 'abandoning' the sim. The illogical thing is that support would continue this long in the first place. The game engine in PF is OLD. FB was supposed to be an add-on to the original Il-2

The work on BoB instead of PF is also obvious. It's next. They are still a business. Ubi is the one who make a hash of PF as far as I can tell, with their constraint of an original 2 CDs. Oleg doesn't run that company. Now he's obligated to BoB, which is his company's future. You don't secure your company's future by continually working on last year's work

The good news for you and me both in all this is: FB, and PF aren't going away just because of an e-mail from Oleg that said "soon acceptance of 3rd party things will cease". You'll still have FB and PF, and so will we all. You don't need to play online at Ubi, go to HyperLobby

When I put myself into the shoes of somebody who just bought PF...I'm still me. If spending 50 or 75 bucks was my concern, I wouldn't buy any simulation. If I had just bough PF, I would look into BoB- if it were something I was interested in. I'd look at development, stay on top of the news...and then make up my mind when it was done. It's a moot question

I am sorry, but you seem to be saying "Hey! I just bought this and you're screwing me!". Well, I say again-

the evolution of the combat flight sim does not hinge upon when you bought PF. That's not a put-down, that's the cold hard fact

Platypus_1.JaVA
02-09-2005, 02:02 PM
http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/10.gif This game is essentially allready over three years old. It's not the dev's fault that you only bought it recently.

Bearcat99
02-09-2005, 02:44 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by dgaggi:
OK,
Maybe someone can explain this to me because I'm a little confused. I'm new to all of this since release of PF. I'm quite happy with FB+AE+PF and feel like I've cheated myself by not getting them earlier. On the other hand, I get the feeling that I've been "HAD". PF was released (incomplete)and there was no server support in the begining, so I went out and bought FB+AE gold pack so that I would be more compatable. Now the focus is on BOB? So let me get this right, I have paid for an incomplete game and it's dead in roughly 6 months? Shouldn't the focus have been on putting out a completed product in the first place? Where is the logic in releasing an unfinished game that will get no future support(dead) and then six months later releasing a new game with a new engine? Maybe PF should have just been shelved and released with the new engine. Sounds and looks like they bit off more than they could chew and we're footing the bill. I really don't see myself purchasing BOB when it comes out. For all of you long time IL2 guys, put yourselves in the shoes of someone who just got into this game with PF. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Relax.....enjoy the sim.. This sim is hardly dead..... or anywhere near death. Read all the other posts carefully. Also read into the BoB post that was linked..... Oleg said that BoB will be the start... that it would eventually spread to theaters not covered yet.... Im sorry if you feel you got ripped off but you need to use what you have and see this gem for what it is.. as far as the server thing goes... there are PF only servers on Hyperlobby... its just that most people get PF and soon they want the whole nine yards.... and if I put myself in your shoes Id be doing two things...... A)Kicking myself for being so narrowminded and not checking out this franchise sooner, opting to stick with what was familiar and listening to all the BS from guys who were just as clueless as me... (For 80% of the new guys that is what it was.... whether they are recently "new" or became "new" a year ago.... just plain old narrowmindedness... the other 20% had technical issues) and B) Id be enjoying the H@LL out of my new found toy.... maximizing B4B (Bang for Buck), just like I actually did when I was a newcomer to this community and had passed IL2 by on the shelves for months..... granted my little POS 233 PII couldnt have handled it anyway but I had upgraded for about a month or so before I decided to bite the bullet and get IL2.... and Ive been here since.

You and others like you who come over here crying and what not on the other hand (unless of course there were technical reasons) have no excuse..... Forgotten Battles and FB GOLD have been on the shelves for quite some time...... you could have checked them out and you would have known what you had been missing and you would have known about PF and probably had it on release day like 90% of the guys who were already into FB2.XX when PF was released.... but you chose....YOU (singular or plural as it applies) CHOSE to stay where you were and avoid this place. You now rightfully feel cheated as you stated.... but not to worry...... enjoy yourself...... there is MUCH fun.... y hear me??!! MUCH FUN http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif to be had still... if BoB was to come out in 12 months, which I doubt.... you could have more than your money's worth of good times with this sim in that time and youd be chomping at the bit for BoB like a baby on a t!t. Just dive in and enjoy it. Look at the bright spots (You are here and when you get that patch..... http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/53.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/11.gif) ... and ignore the clouds... there might be a 190 behind it waiting to rip you a new virtual arsehole......

Welcome to the community and be glad you got here when you did.... other wise you would be simming..... where? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/blink.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif

Wallstein
02-09-2005, 05:05 PM
Let me say a couple of words, too! Take it easy, fore you have not been cheated or fooled either. The reasons for PF being immature (when published) has been explained above by several blokes. And... I guess they told you this also, there are no 6 months to wait for the BoB. Multiply that by two, three or perhaps four. Another BoB will soon be released, so Oleg`s production will take time. I bet they want to see what will happen with this Rowan´s BoB:s successor.

I want to congratulate for your good decission to join us with all of the repertuare, IL-2 + FB + PF (did I remember all the letters correctly?). For more than ones it has been said in these forums, how much pleasure and excitment we all have got AND HOW INEXPENSIVE it has been...!

If there was only six more months to go before THE BOB, I would feel petty for you, because you will need much more (than just a six months) time to learn to handle the bunch of aero planes available for you now. Finally I´d like to encourage you to "study the roots", go to the original Russo/German confrontation (original for the IL-2 as you know). GO FOR IT!
Many people think that it is astonishing... It is different compared to any other front. Russo/German aircombat was the original idea, the inspiring source of ideas for the new thing to come, the STORMOVIK!(I wrote it intentionally in the old finnish form instead of Sthurmovik...or so)

Don´t regret that you bought this sim, but enjoy!!!

For your long and exciting pilot career I remain,
Wallstein http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Saunders1953
02-09-2005, 06:48 PM
My perspective might be a little different. I kind of have both experiences--a veteran noobie, if you will. I started with IL2 in February of 2002. I hadn't played a flight sim or any computer game since SWOTL (loved it)in 1994. After that, my sons took successive PC's to college and I didn't really have a home PC again until January 2002. But I didn't really need one, because my main hobbies for 30+ years were reading military history and painting and gaming miniatures. I have several thousand painted and began painting competitively about 10 years and put alot of effort and time into them. I've even won major awards (all, strangely, stamped "FRAGILE" http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif) at national and regional cons, and, well, it is important to me because it is something I'm good at and provides a lot of relaxation.

But IL2 got under my skin and I played the **** thing several hours a day for about 6 months. But exclusively offline QMB and single missions. I never plumbed the depths--online, FMB, even the forums (LOL, sorry, but I thought the forums were mostly for techies and never really followed them.) Eventually, because new skins weren't available in QMB, my computer was getting long in the tooth, I wasn't interested in other computer games, there was no ETO, MTO, PTO in IL2, and because I didn't really know better by not following the forums, I never understood the FMB mechanisms---I just went back to painting for relaxation and enjoyment.

When I finally decided to upgrade last year, about the same time I came across an announcement about PF. Around then the FB/AEP Gold pack came out cheap, so I grabbed it, upgraded (over several months) and later got PF and did the merged install. Since early October, I haven't picked up a paint brush. Instead, I read the PF forums every noon hour and about an hour a night, (they're alot of fun, what with all the flaming, whining, praise, speculation, dreaming and, of course, x-CRASH-x) I've got DGEN, UQMB, Shift-E's VAC, Shift-E's Mission thingy (can't remember the name at the moment)and IL2 MAT. I have ordered Operation Barbarossa,Fall Blau and BOE, I spend hours a week in the FMB, built dozens of missions and barely scratched the surface of what I want to build. I have yet to start skinning, but have all the necessary utilities, have read the tutorials, etc., Same for movie making, although I already have had alot of fun making guncam shots. I fly now and then as well.

So my point is, dgaggi, don't short change yourself. Give this sim a chance. I'm not a flight sim nut, so I'm not overly concerned if the FM isn't just right on a plane. But I'm a combat sim-and-all-the-goodies-that-go-with-it-nut, and I don't think I ever spent a better $39.95 US on anything else in my life. Like many others, I look at PF as an add-on, and know I will enjoy it for years, even after BOB. There's just so much depth to it.

It's too bad that PF isn't complete, but these others have laid out the history on it and you have to admit, the odds are that Oleg will continue to provide content. In the meantime, enjoy all this sim and it's 3rd party stuff does offer. I wasn't Had.

Anyone wanna buy about 2500 unpainted miniatures?