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XyZspineZyX
09-30-2003, 12:45 AM
Whatever happened to Khalkhin-Gol? (or the Nomonhan incident, as the Japs called it). The Finns got their Winter War already. How about remembering the rest of the forgotten battles?

Rumor has it that Ubi wants to sell a Japanese version of Forgotten Battles in Japan. That's probably why they've started adding the Ki-84 and the Zero. Those planes are great for 1944, but those planes are not even remotely appropriate for most of the war in the East. (Flying Tigers, CBI fans, etc, please feel free to chime in here....)

The USSR side is nearly ready to go for Khalkin-Gol. Simply tweak the existing I-153 to make fixed gear I-15bis. Then, add some earlier type I-16s. All the great SBs and the Po-2 biplanes are ready to go as-is. On the Japanese side, we'll need Ki-27 'Nate', A6M4 'Claude', plus a smattering of bombers such as Ki-21, Ki-30 or Ki-32. That's not much compared to the Finland Winter War or a China-Burma-India add-on.

Forgotten Battles provided the Finns with a very nice add-on addressing their theatre. The Japanese consumers Ubi is targeting deserve the same thoroughness. There had better be a heck of a lot more than two late-war Japanese fighters and a palm tree in the Japanese add-on.

XyZspineZyX
09-30-2003, 12:45 AM
Whatever happened to Khalkhin-Gol? (or the Nomonhan incident, as the Japs called it). The Finns got their Winter War already. How about remembering the rest of the forgotten battles?

Rumor has it that Ubi wants to sell a Japanese version of Forgotten Battles in Japan. That's probably why they've started adding the Ki-84 and the Zero. Those planes are great for 1944, but those planes are not even remotely appropriate for most of the war in the East. (Flying Tigers, CBI fans, etc, please feel free to chime in here....)

The USSR side is nearly ready to go for Khalkin-Gol. Simply tweak the existing I-153 to make fixed gear I-15bis. Then, add some earlier type I-16s. All the great SBs and the Po-2 biplanes are ready to go as-is. On the Japanese side, we'll need Ki-27 'Nate', A6M4 'Claude', plus a smattering of bombers such as Ki-21, Ki-30 or Ki-32. That's not much compared to the Finland Winter War or a China-Burma-India add-on.

Forgotten Battles provided the Finns with a very nice add-on addressing their theatre. The Japanese consumers Ubi is targeting deserve the same thoroughness. There had better be a heck of a lot more than two late-war Japanese fighters and a palm tree in the Japanese add-on.

XyZspineZyX
09-30-2003, 12:59 AM
Sorry, I can think of better campaigns to sell to the Japs.

Malaya, Singapore, Burma, Phillipines, China.

XyZspineZyX
09-30-2003, 04:43 AM
They better have Kamikaze missions in any such add-on. Late in the war they got rid of more than half their planes by trying to crash them into boats. I also am looking forward to spending ten minutes playing the Kamikaze "campaign".

XyZspineZyX
09-30-2003, 08:12 AM
Col.Tomb, welcome to the Khalkin-Gol Club.

XyZspineZyX
09-30-2003, 08:24 AM
Cheers, Lazio5! http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

By the way, I would be thrilled to see Singapore, China, Malaya, New Guinea, too. Without aircraft carriers, FB is naturally suited to the land-based Japanese campaigns.

<font size="-2">'Perfect' is enemy of 'good enough' --Admiral Gorshkov
It's a trap! --Admiral Ackbar</font>

XyZspineZyX
09-30-2003, 08:55 AM
No, sorry, but we didn't get our Winter war yet! FB has the Continuation war of 1941, winter war was 1939.

XyZspineZyX
09-30-2003, 10:05 AM
And the Aleoutians, why always forget the Aleoutians!

Cheers,

XyZspineZyX
09-30-2003, 11:42 AM
True, look at the planes the avg faced.

The Flying Tiger aces

Here are the 15 Flying Tiger pilots who were credited with five or more air-to-air victories--the usual definition of an "ace". (Click here for victories attributed to AVG pilots, in the air and on the ground.) Where scores are tied, I list the names alphabetically. If you have additional information about any of these men, please send email. Thanks to Skip Guidry, Tom Pearson, and Rick Siciliano for helping update this file.

1. Robert Neale

A Seattle resident, Bob Neale was a dive-bomber pilot on Saratoga when he joined the AVG. He took over the 1st Squadron Adam & Eves after Sandy Sandell was killed, and was decorated by the British government (Distinguished Service Order) for his exploits in Burma. Neale was one of the AVG pilots who volunteered two weeks' additional service in China after the group was disbanded; during that interim, he commanded the U.S. Army's 23rd Fighter Group--as a civilian!--pending the arrival of the designated commander, Colonel Robert Scott. After returning to the States, he served as a civilian transport or ferry pilot for Pan American World Airways. The AVG records credit him with 13 air-to-air victories:

23 Jan 1942: 1 Ki-27 Nate fighter
24 Jan 1942: 2 Ki-21 Sally bombers
26 Jan 1942: 1 Ki-27 Nate fighter
6 Feb 1942: 1 Ki-27 Nate fighter
25 Feb 1942: 4 Ki-27 Nate fighters
26 Feb 1942: 3 Ki-27 Nate fighters
3 May 1942: 1 Ki-15? observation plane

2. David Lee Hill

Born in Korea to a missionary father who later became chaplain to the Texas Rangers, Tex Hill was also a Navy dive-bomber pilot when recruited for the AVG, serving on Ranger on the east coast. The British awarded him the Distiguished Flying Cross for his service in Burma. He replaced Jack Newkirk as commander of the 2nd Squadron Panda Bears in March 1942. Devoted to Chennault, he was one of only five Flying Tigers who accepted induction into the U.S. Army in July 1942. He was given the rank of major and the command of the 75th Fighter Squadron. On his second combat tour in China, he served as commander of the 23rd Fighter Group, and after the war earned general's rank in the Texas Air National Guard. The AVG record credits him with 10.25 air-to-air victories:

3 Jan 1942: 1 Ki-27 Nate fighter
23 Jan 1942: 2 Ki-27 Nate fighters
24 Jan 1942: 1 Ki-21 Sally bomber + 1 Ki-27 Nate fighter
29 Jan 1942: 1 Ki-27 Nate fighter
24 Apr 1942: shared 1 Ki-15 Sonia observation plane
28 Apr 1942: 2 Ki-43 Hayabusa fighters
5 May 1942: 1 Ki-43 Hayabusa fighter
6 July 1942: 1 Ki-27 Nate fighter

(3) George Burgard

A native of Pennsylvania, George Burgard was born August 12, 1915. He attended Bucknell and spent six years as a newspaperman before joining the Army. Trained in B-17s, he was serving as a Ferry Command pilot when he joined the AVG. Following his AVG service, he flew for American Export Lines. He has his own webpage; see the links. The record shows him in a three-way tie as a double ace:

21 Feb 1942: 2 Ki-27 Nate fighters
25 Feb 1942: 1 bomber + 2 fighters
26 Feb 1942: 3 Ki-27 Nate fighters
12 Jun 1942: 1 Ki-45 Toryu fighter + 1 Ki-27 Nate fighter (the Toryu was piloted by Sgt. Jiro Ieiri, commander of "Nagano Force" of five or more Ki-45s based at Canton; Ieiri was killed in the crash, but the radioman-gunner survived to have his picture taken with Burgard and other Flying Tigers)

(3) Robert Little

Bob Little is shown as a native of Spokane. Likewise recruited from the Army Air Corps (probably from the 8th Pursuit Group at Mitchel Field), and likewise a double ace, he was killed in action while bombing Japanese positions on the Salween River, 22 May 1942.

29 Jan 1942: 1 Ki-27 Nate fighter
6 Feb 1942: 2 Ki-27 Nate fighters
25 Feb 1942: 3 Ki-27 Nate fighters
26 Feb 1942: 3 Ki-27 Nate fighters
8 Apr 1942: 1 Ki-43 Hayabusa fighter

(3) Charles Older

A graduate of UCLA, Chuck Older joined the Navy as a breather before law school. Following the AVG, he joined the Army and ended the war as a lieutenant colonel before resuming his interrupted study of the law, perhaps the only double ace to become a judge. (Most famously, he presided over the Charles Manson trial.) Meantime, he was recalled to active duty and flew a Douglas B-26 Invader during the Korean War--probably the only Flying Tiger to be a combat pilot in another war.

23 Dec 1941: 2 Ki-21 Sally bombers
25 Dec 1941: 2 Ki-21 Sally bombers + 1 Ki-43 Hayabusa fighter
17 Jan 1942: 1 Ki-21 Sally bomber + 1 shared
29 Mar 1942: 1 Ki-46 Dinah? observation plane
10 Apr 1942: shared 1 Ki-43 Hayabusa fighter (flown by Sgt. Yosh1to Yasuda of the 64th Sentai, who not only managed to fly back to Chiang Mai but survived the war, later writing about this combat in terms that make it impossible that he was not the pilot claimed by Older and Hedman)
28 Apr 1942: 2 Ki-43 Hayabusa fighters

6. Robert T. Smith

A native of Red Cloud, Nebraska, R. T. Smith was serving as an Army flight instructor at Randolph Field when he joined the AVG, and he rejoined the Air Corps when his tour was finished. He served with the 1st Air Commando in India and Burma, ending the war as a colonel. His facsimile diary, Tale of a Tiger, is one of the best of the AVG memoirs. (Part of it is online at C. C. Jordan's page.) The record shows him with 8.90 air-to-air victories:

23 Dec 1941: 1 Ki-21 Sally bomber + 1 shared
25 Dec 1941: 2 Ki-21 Sally bombers + 1 Ki-43 Hayabusa fighter
8 Apr 1942: 2 Ki-43 Hayabusa fighters (the first was flown by Lt. Yohei Hinoki of the 64th Sentai, who was badly shot up but managed to fly home to Chiang Mai; the second belonged to Sgt. Chikara Goto, credited with two victories at Singapore, who crashed 30 or 40 miles south of Loiwing)
10 Apr 1942: 1 Ki-43 Hayabusa fighter
25 Apr 1942: shared 2 Ki-15 Sonia observation planes (the loss of these planes is confirmed in Japanese records)
28 Apr 1942: 1 Ki-43 Hayabusa fighter

7. William McGarry

One of the few AVG recruits who'd actually flown fighter planes--Curtiss P-40s for the 1st Pursuit Group at Selfridge Field--Mac McGarry was shot down over Chiang Mai, Thailand, on 24 March 1942. (Portions of his Tomahawk are now on display at the Chiang Mai airport. It was the discovery of those relicts that prompted me to write my novel Remains.) After a rough interrogation by the Japanese, he was handed over to the local authorities and spent the war in the comparative comfort of a Thai jail. The record shows him with 8 air-to-air victories:

26 Jan 1942: 1 Ki-27 Nate fighter
6 Feb 1942: 1 Ki-27 Nate fighter
25 Feb 1942: 4 Ki-27 Nate fighters
26 Feb 1942: 2 Ki-27 Nate fighters

(8) Charles Bond

Charlie Bond was born in Dallas on April 22, 1915. As a high-school student, he joined the ROTC and eventually the Texas National Guard. In 1935 he joined the Army in hopes of attending the West Point Preparatory School at Camp Bullis, Texas--a route for enlisted men to attend the Military Academy. Failing to win an appointment, he tried again as a flying cadet. He succeeded in becoming an officer, but was disappointed to be assigned to the 2nd Bomb Group at Langley Field, Virgina, instead of flying "pursuit" as every young pilot dreamed of doing. He was ferrying Hudsons to the RAF when an AVG recruiter caught up with him. For his services in Burma, the British awarded him the Distinguished Flying Cross. After his AVG tour--which included two weeks' extra service during the transition to the 23rd Fighter Group--he became a career officer, retiring from the Air Force with the rank of major general. In 1984, he published his memoirs as A Flying Tiger's Diary. He was credited with 7 air-to-air victories:

29 Jan 1942: 2 Ki-27 Nate fighters
25 Feb 1942: 3 Ki-27 Nate fighters
26 Feb 1942: 1 Ki-27 Nate fighter
4 May 1942: 1 Ki-21 Sally bomber (the Sally belonged to the 98th Sentai based at Rangoon; it crashed inside China, and several other bombers also sustained damage from Bond's attacks)

(8) Frank Lawlor

A graduate of the University of North Carolina, "Whitey" Lawlor joined the Navy in 1938, and he was a fighter pilot on Saratoga when he joined the AVG. He returned to the Navy after his AVG tour, ending the war as a lieutenant commander. He tied Bond and Jack Newkirk with 7 air-to-air victories:

23 Jan 1942: 4 Ki-27 Nate fighters
29 Jan 1942: 1 Ki-27 Nate fighter
5 May 1942: 2 Ki-27 Nate fighters

(8) John Newkirk

The newspapers called him "Scarsdale Jack," though he was actually a native of New York City, born there on November 15, 1913. Improbably, he had worked as a copy boy for Time magazine. He also served a three-year hitch in the U.S. Army as an infantry lieutenant, before switching to the Navy and flying, and somewhere in there he apparently also flew for American Airlines. Jack was a fighter pilot aboard Yorktown when he volunteered for the AVG. At the age of 27, with his leadership training, he was already a dominant figure in the group by the time he arrived in Burma. By the time he was killed on the Chiang Mai raid, he too had been credited with 7 air-to-air victories, though some AVG veterans hinted broadly that were skeptical of his claims. (It is certainly true that the squadron leaders, who had the primary responsibility for signing off on victories, generally built up their scores more quickly than the other pilots.)

3 Jan 1942: 1 Ki-44 Shoki? fighter, 1 Ki-27 Nate fighter
20 Jan 1942: 2 Ki-27 Nate fighters
23 Jan 1942: 1 Ki-21 Sally? bomber, 2 Ki-27 Nate fighters

(11) Robert Hedman

Duke Hedman was the only AVG pilot--and one of very few Americans--to make ace in a single day. (The record was confused when one of his victories was shifted to an earlier day, and again when his flight agreed to share all bonus credits equally.) He attended the University of North Dakota and was serving with the 1st Pursuit Group at Selfridge Field when he joined the AVG. He stayed on in China as a civilian transport pilot for the national airline, CNAC. Postwar, he was a pilot for Flying Tiger Line until he retired in 1971. Though his CAMCO bonus account stands at only 4.83, he should have been credited with 6 victories, putting him in a three-way tie as tenth-ranking AVG ace, and one of very few Americans who achieved acedom in a single day:

25 Dec 1941: 4 Ki-21 Sally bombers + 1 Ki-43 Hayabusa fighter
10 Apr 1942: shared 1 Ki-43 Hayabusa fighter (Sgt. Yasuda's plane; see Older's listing for more about this combat)
20 Apr 1942: shared 1 Ki-15? Sonia observation plane

(11) C. Joseph Rosbert

Joe Rosbert (his first initial stands for Camille) graduated from Villanova as a chemical engineer before joining the Navy in 1938. He was piloting a stately PBY Catalina for VP-44 in San Diego when the AVG signed him up. He served two extra weeks during the transition to the 23rd Fighter Group, then joined CNAC as a transport pilot flying cargo over the "Hump" of the Himalayas. Postwar, he was one of the original founder-pilots of Flying Tiger Line (see Bartling, below), before moving over to Chennault's Civil Air Transport (the predecessor of Air America). Later he ran several "Flying Tiger Joe" restaurants. He too had six victories in the record:

25 Feb 1942: 1 Ki-27 Nate fighter
26 Feb 1942: 3 Ki-27 Nate fighters
12 June 1942: 2 Ki-45 Toryu fighters

(11) J. Richard Rossi

**** Rossi was born April 19, 1915, and he'd attended the University of California and served a hitch in the Merchant Marine before joining the Navy. He was a flight instructor at Pensacola when he joined the AVG. Like the other six-victory aces, he declined to rejoin his country's armed services after the AVG disbanded, staying on in China as a highly-paid CNAC pilot. He flew for Flying Tiger Line until his retirement in 1971, and is the long-time president of the Flying Tiger Assocation. He recently posted his story online.

28 Jan 1942: 1 Ki-27 Nate fighter
25 Feb 1942: 1 Ki-27 Nate fighter
26 Feb 1942: 3 Ki-27 Nate fighters
12 Jun 1942: 1 Ki-27 Nate fighter

14. Robert Prescott

Born May 5, 1913, and therefore apparently the oldest of the AVG aces, Bob Prescott had been a pre-law student in college. Recruited from the Navy, he was yet another of the Flying Tigers who chose to fly for CNAC when his tour ended. He later founded the Flying Tiger Line, the only "non-sked" established by World War II veterans that survived and prospered, at least until it was absorbed by FedEx. (Until the FAA put a stop to it, he used to fly AVG veterans to their annual reunions.) The record shows him with 5.5 air-to-air victories:

29 Jan 1942: 1 Ki-27 Nate fighter
6 Feb 1942: 1 Ki-27 Nate fighter
25 Feb 1942: 3 Ki-27 Nate fighters
18 Apr 1942: shared 1 Ki-46? Dinah observation plane

(15) Percy Bartelt

An engineering graduate of the University of Iowa, Bartelt had served four years in the Navy when he joined the AVG. He quit the AVG in March 1942 and thus received a "dishonorable discharge" from Chennault, depriving him of the veterans' benefits and Silver Star that were later awarded to those who stayed with the group to the end. He was the only ace to be so treated, and probably for that reason I could find no photograph of him. He returned to the Navy as a lieutenant and served as a flight instructor until being hospitalized with a lung infection. He received a disability retirement in 1951 and worked for the state of Minnesota until retirement in 1974. He died in Fargo, ND on March 29, 1986. The record shows him in a five-way tie as the AVG's fifteenth-ranking ace:

23 Jan 1942: 3 Ki-30 Ann light bombers
24 Jan 1942: 2 Ki-27 Nate fighters

(15) William Bartling

A 1938 graduate of Purdue in chemical engineering, Bartling joined the navy and flew a dive bomber off the USS Wasp. He was one of the AVG pilots who volunteered two extra weeks' service in China to ease the transition to the 23rd Fighter group, and he afterward flew for CNAC. Postwar, he was an executive at National Skyway Freight Corporation, which morphed into the Flying Tiger Line, the most successful of the "non-scheds" established by veterans flying war-surplus aircraft (in this case, Douglas C-47s with a rather bemused shark-mouth painted on). He died November 1979.

23 Jan 1942: 1 Ki-27 Nate fighter
28 Jan 1942: 1 Ki-27 Nate fighter
9 May 1942: 1 Ki-46 Dinah observation plane (this was the first plane ever lost by the 18th Independent Chutai, which had been flying reconnissance missions over China for four years; it was piloted by Capt. Hideharu Takeuchi)
12 June 1942: 1 Ki-45 Toryu fighter + 1 Ki-27 Nate fighter

(15) Edmund Overend

Born May 31, 1914, Eddie Overend became a Flying Tiger ace shortly before his 28th birthday. A Marine pilot when recruited for the AVG, he'd also served two years in a machine-gun company--presumably also in the Marines. He rejoined the Corps after his AVG tour was ended, finishing the war with the rank of major.

23 Dec 1941: 1 Ki-21 Sally bomber
25 Dec 1941: 2 Ki-21 Sally bombers
8 Apr 1942: 1 Ki-43 Hayabusa fighter
28 April 1942: 1 Ki-43 Hayabusa fighter

(15) Robert Sandell

A former Army flight instructor at Maxwell Field, Sandy Sandell somehow ended up as squadron leader of the AVG 1st Squadron, called the Adam & Eves. He was not particularly liked, but in his short combat career at Rangoon he became one of the first of the AVG aces. He was killed on 7 Feb 1942 when his recently-repaired Tomahawk shed its tail on a test flight over Mingaladon airport.

28 Jan 1942: 2 Ki-27 Nate fighters
29 Jan 1942: 3 Ki-27 Nate fighters

(15) Robert H. Smith

Sometimes called Snuffy, sometimes Smitty, this Bob Smith attended Kansas State College and served in its ROTC detachment; he had 18 months in the Army Air Corps when he was recruited for the AVG. He rejoined the Army after his tour as a Flying Tiger, ending the war as a major.

21 Feb 1942: 1 Ki-27 Nate fighter
25 Feb 1942: 3 Ki-27 Nate fighters
26 Feb 1942: 1 Ki-48 Lily bomber


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Good dogfighters bring ammo home, Great ones don't. (c) Leadspitter



http://www.freewebs.com/leadspitter/lead.txt
Good dogfighters bring ammo home, Great ones don't. (c) Leadspitter

XyZspineZyX
09-30-2003, 11:56 AM
The I-15 bis or I-152 didn't have the gull wing of the I-153. It was a regular biplane configuration. I've also thought about this tweak with keeping the undercarriage down. The earlier I-15 wasn't as structurally strong as the later I-152 & I-153 fighters of the series and you will need someone to model the M25 engine for it and the earlier I-16's.