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View Full Version : Ki-27 versus I-16 Type18 - need help



Mix120
06-16-2008, 01:52 PM
Hi all!

I'm playing this sim for some months now, so I think I got the basics. Last days I am flying this Khalkin Gol scenario, and I must say it's a nightmare for me to shoot down an I-16 with two light MGs mounted on Ki-27. I have absolutely no problems in a reversed position, and I usually use only two MGs instead of all 4 to set Ki-27 alight or to kill its pilot, but I-16 seems absurdly sturdy. Weren't those early birds nothing more than just flying canisters of gas, with some ammunition added? I find myself running out of ammo trying to shoot down a single plane quite often - and I know I am hitting him as black parts are flying off him all the time. I also try to aim for the same spot on the plane with that sniper sight. They only seem vulnerable if I catch them during turn - it is no problem then to shoot them down with putting some bullets into frontal compartment of the plane. This usually results in a pilot kill or burning engine. But from dead 6, they just don't realise they are being hit - it's like tickling them! Ki-27 on the other side burns really nice when hit from dead 6 into a wingroot with the russian shkas machineguns.

Can anyone explain why I can rack up to 5 japanese Ki-27s with a I-16 using only two nose machineguns, but it's a reaaal pain in the buttocks dealing with I-16s. It's like trying to kill a tied up mamooth barehanded.

I play offline, externals enabled, other settings to realistic. Sometime I slow down the time to learn to shoot, but I'm trying to get rid of this habit as I found out you can learn more by reviewing the track (an advice read on this forums http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif). Oh, and opponents are novice or average.

mortoma
06-16-2008, 02:43 PM
I have never tried to down an I-16 in a KI-27. But I have downed hundreds of them with planes like the Hurricane Mk.IIb, the PZL-11C and the J8A. All of these have MGs only or a combination of MG and extremely light cannon. They are ineffective but I do it by trying to kill the pilot at high angles, when I can shoot at the top of the plane. This takes some lead deflection shooting. Also the top of the I-16s cowling, which is exposed at high angles, is a good place to shoot because the engine can be smoked more easily.

Although I have fired concentrated, long bursts of MG from dead six at close range and got the engines smoking, critically damaging them. Also if you hit them in the bottom under the wing root sometimes you can set them alight or even cause them to explode!! This also takes a concentrated, long burst.

You are lucky, the I-16s damage model was toned down a little after Forgotten Battles came out. In the original IL2 days they were much tougher. They still have an early and simplistic damage model which makes them harder to kill than planes introduced later. The worst offender is the LaGG-3 S4, but it still can be downed even by MG. I got quite a few flying an Italian campaign in the MC-200 and the early 202s which both have weak Italian MGs only. I also got dozens of I-16s of both types.

I think after a while you gunnery will improve and you will get better. It takes good markmanship to kill I-16s with light guns. I'm going to try a QMB with the KI-27 against the I-16 now to see if I can kill one or more. Also you could turn off realistic gunnery. If you don't want to do that, just practice more.

Sillius_Sodus
06-16-2008, 02:57 PM
I-16's are hard to bring down from dead six. Try to shoot them when they are in a turn. Most of my kills against them (offline) have been either PK's or I was able to disable the controls because they just stopped maneuvering and flew into the ground.

Ba5tard5word
06-16-2008, 03:19 PM
The I-16 just soaks up a lot of damage no matter what. The I-185 biplane I think can take even more damage. In any case the I-16 is noticeably tougher than Japanese planes like the Ki-27 or Zero, which really were kinda just a gas tank surrounded by paper.

I've gotten quick kills on I-16's when I got lucky and blew its wing off, this seems to be the quickest way to get a kill on one.

For my part I can't stand the goofy periscope gunsights on the Ki-27--it's not like an enemy plane is going to stay in one place so you can line up a shot with that monstrosity.

VW-IceFire
06-16-2008, 03:41 PM
I think both planes have buggered up DM's. The I-16 can take repeated hits and keep going until you get the pilot or the engine. Do not aim for the rear fuselage as it will stop just about everything. The Ki-27 is just as bad...the fuel tanks refuse to light on fire unless hit repeatedly by even the mightly ShKAS light machine gun on the I-16.

Grendel-B
06-16-2008, 04:35 PM
Originally posted by Mix120:

Can anyone explain why I can rack up to 5 japanese Ki-27s with a I-16 using only two nose machineguns, but it's a reaaal pain in the buttocks dealing with I-16s. It's like trying to kill a tied up mamooth barehanded.


Because that's how it was.
Soviets were among the first to really use armor in their fighter planes. The Soviet fighters and bombers were heavily armored against rifle caliber weapons and you're learning the same thing as many Finnish/German pilots did - don't shoot from dead 6. Shoot from side, to bypass the armor and hit vital nonprotected parts.

Japanese on other hand avoided armoring or protecting their planes until rather late in the war.

Lurch1962
06-16-2008, 04:52 PM
For my part I can't stand the goofy periscope gunsights on the Ki-27--it's not like an enemy plane is going to stay in one place so you can line up a shot with that monstrosity.

Hmmmm... In such a nimble plane as the Ki-27 or Ki-43, once I've got an enemy in that telescopic sight I can keep it there for quite extended periods. Even when the enemy are aces in similarly maneuverable kites and twisting about like the very Devil's on their a$$. (Which of course is the case! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/784.gif)

leitmotiv
06-16-2008, 05:33 PM
First and foremost, those Soviet rifle-caliber machine guns on the Type 18 I-16 (Type 18 anachronistic for Mongolia, by the way) were the finest, fastest firing light aircraft machine guns of the WWII period. Very correctly they should demolish the lightly-built, unarmored Ki-27. Next, the I-16 had a great slab of armor right behind the pilot's back which completely protected him from machine gun fire from his six o'clock. The rest of the I-16 Type 18 was unarmored. The Japanese Army light aircraft machine gun was based on the American .30 cal. Browning. Their version was not great. As for using the ghastly non-6 DOF tele sight in Maddox games---all I can say is good luck. I could never get used to the unnaturalness of the way they were depicted. I solved the problem using means which cannot be discussed. I recommend setting your convergence for 100 meters and shooting at this range. Try to rake the I-16 from the side, above, or below.

DuckyFluff
06-16-2008, 06:25 PM
The "ghastly" tele sight in the legal game is a DELIGHT nothing sweeter than saddling up on a bandit and switching to the "ghastly" sight and literally picking EXACTLY where you want hit with them http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

leitmotiv
06-16-2008, 10:48 PM
It's ghastly because the Oleg tele sights are not natural in the way you use it---with 6 DOF you are able to use telescopic sights the way God intended, not some game designer. I grant you some people have no trouble with the Oleg tele sight---I was never able to hit the broad side of a barn door with it. With a 6 DOF tele sight, I can hit anything because it works like a real tele sight, i.e., you can move your head right up against it to shoot and pull back slightly for a wider view for an instant to maintain position on your target. I always found the Oleg "interpretation" to be impossible to use against a maneuvering target. If the Oleg works for you, grand!

Ba5tard5word
06-17-2008, 01:05 AM
the one on the F2A is a bit easier to deal with since it's small and unobtrusive and you can use the iron sight-type things on top of it to aim.

DKoor
06-17-2008, 01:27 AM
Ki-27 should be able to eat I-16 type 18 alive, while type 24 is somewhat dangerous opponent being faster and having cannons so that fight could be quite unlikely, I-16 could be stuck with exploiting better top speed.

BWaltteri
06-18-2008, 01:38 AM
Fly very close, and aim for the engine. The Ki-27 has far superior optical sights and you must use those to win.

Don't expect the enemy plane to explode, it will go down eventually but a bit slowly though.

***

I managed to shoot 3 Tschaikas down with Ki-27, two with my machine guns and one with my landing gears...

Mix120
06-20-2008, 12:33 PM
Thank you for all the advices guys! I see now it is also a damage modelling issue.

IceFire, do you really find it hard to fire up a Ki-27? By my experience they just wait for their chance... Usually a few well aimed bullets into wingroot and they go afire like a roman torch! The same as early zeros or Ki-43s. I don't even have the need to fire all 4 machineguns! I feel more confortable to use only nose ones, and have wing mounted weapons for a backup if I need to defend myself on my return leg.

I really like these early birds, armed only with light machineguns, like I-16, I-15, P11, Gladiator or Ki-27. Am I alone? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-indifferent.gif
Everyone else around here seem to discuss only late war, heavy cannon armed planes... How about online, is it possible to find early war servers and players wanting to fly that timeframe?

Ba5tard5word
06-20-2008, 02:00 PM
I enjoy the early planes too, some of them are SOOOO maneuverable...a huge change from something like a P-38 or FW-190 that takes forever to turn...

The I-185 is a joy to fly, too bad it's so slow that it's a pain to fly against anything faster than a Gladiator...the Buffalo is also really fun to fly because of how maneuverable it is.

but again I just cannot deal with the Ki-27's periscope sights... http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

The I-16 is fun but it's a bit annoying how it will veer to the right if you are making a sharp turn, this is pretty dangerous if you are close to the ground. Also I can't stand how the engine on it or on the I-185 will just cut out on you in the middle of battle...but hey that's realism for ya.

TinyTim
06-20-2008, 04:22 PM
U probably mean I-153, as I-185 is fast as hell, and has no probs with neg cutout http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif.

Lurch1962
06-20-2008, 04:33 PM
I really like these early birds, armed only with light machineguns, like I-16, I-15, P11, Gladiator or Ki-27. Am I alone?

No, you're definitely NOT alone. I fly the MG-only equipped early fighters well over half the time.

Ba5tard5word
06-20-2008, 05:27 PM
crud, yes, sorry, I mean the 153 and not the 185.

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/35.gif

zardozid
06-21-2008, 12:31 PM
Your talking about one of my favorite (early war) scenarios, the KI-27 vs early USSR. If you read story's of actual engagements from that time you will (frequently) hear story's of great furballs where fighters are just flying around in a disorganized mass. The Japanese fighter pilots would take shots of opportunity as I-16's would fly past at high deflection (presenting a nice side shot). A frequent tactic that Japanese pilots would use in the early war was to fly strait into a formation and break it up into a disorganized melee where they would twist, turn, and loop constantly (presenting a difficult target) and they would shoot as targets presented...in other words they didn't always sit on the I-16's 6o'clock and fire away (or Boom & Zoom)...they would bounce around flying in and out of the furball always moving and "showing off" just waiting for a "high deflection shot of opportunity"...They would usually aim at the engine or pilot from the side.