PDA

View Full Version : IL2 P-51 compared to other sims.



p0wderfinger
07-13-2007, 11:53 PM
I'm not a heavy Il-2 flier, but I do consider myself a heavy flight simmer in general. When I fly the P-51 in Il2 however, I find I don't do as well compared to other planes of similar flying style like the FW190 or Tempest. I find the P-51's elevator response to be quite tempermental compared to Warbirds or Targetware where it's my favourite ride. Pulling even moderate angles of attack seems to induce fluttering a lot easier than in a FW190 even at high speeds, giving the FW190 what feels like much smoother handling, and an instantaneous turn advantage, albeit at a higher energy cost. Playing multiplayer on Pacific Fighters, I also noticed that if I dove on a Zero, it could quickly dive to 300mph+ speeds, perform an evasive, and then follow me quite closely in the zoom. Against Ki-84s, I found energy parity was reached rather quickly so that after a couple of passes, it would be time to bug out. This is flying P-51Ds by the way, I find the Mustang IIIs with the higher boost ratings perform better though not without expense. Typically my style is to stick with FW190s in high speed dogfights, chipping away at them when I can, and bnz everything else except 109Ks sometimes if I feel the pilot isn't too sharp, but I find the early fluttering makes sticking with the FW190s pretty difficult especially when things slow down to medium speeds. Does anyone have any advice, or an explanation as to why the P-51 behaves the way it does here? Did the programmers here catch something the other sims missed? Or is this the result of an attempt to downplay the Mustang in favour of the Soviet planes? (Not drawing any conclusions, but if you read the View Object descriptions it seems that the only disadvantage Soviet planes suffered was "poor manufacturing quality."http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/shady.gif)

FritzGryphon
07-14-2007, 12:10 AM
You could do some research on laminar flow wings, or test pilot reports for P-51s in general.

It's a little hard to get past the popular history that surrounds planes like the P-51, but if you try and ignore the hyperbolic stuff and look at the specs, I think you'll find it's quite accurate in this sim compared to others.

The T/W ratio and wing loading alone is enough to see it would turn like a FW-190. The laminar flow wing, outstanding for low drag and efficiency, is also dreadfully snappy (that's the whole point of a laminar flow wing). Further concessions to low drag made the stabilizers too small, even with the fillet added.

Most other sims simply model popular history as-is in an attempt to get sales, or simply because the developers do not know any better. In fact, they 'miss' a lot, including all of the test pilot remarks about the P-51 through it's career.

The P-51s in general are extremely fast and unmatchable in BnZ, I'd say the the best plane, barring jets. It doesn't need false performance figures on top of it.

p0wderfinger
07-14-2007, 12:28 AM
Originally posted by FritzGryphon:
You could do some research on laminar flow wings, or P-51s in general.

It's a little hard to get past the popular history that surrounds planes like the P-51, but if you try and ignore the hyperbolic stuff and look at the specs, I think you'll find it's quite accurate in this sim compared to others.

The T/W ratio and wing loading alone is enough to see it would turn like a FW-190. The laminar flow wing, outstanding for low drag and efficiency, is also dreadfully snappy (that's the whole point of a laminar flow wing). Further concessions to low drag made the stabilizers too small, even with the fillet added.

Most other sims simply model popular history as-is in an attempt to get sales, or simply because the developers do not know any better.
If I'm not flying when I could be flying, it's usually because I'm doing research on airplanes. I'm not one of those people who believes the "Mustang won the war" propaganda, I simply fly it because I just love the plane itself, and while not exceptional in any one area, I found it to be "just enough" in all categories to be able to do well, and against the tougher matchups, atleast survive. While survival isn't really an issue, I find the doing well half to be a lot tougher in Il2, yet I still see dedicated 'stang squadrons so there must be a way to do it right. I had suspicions about the laminar flow wings which I understand are designed for speed, not lift, but shouldn't the high speed handling, where airspeed offsets disadvantages in airfoil lift, still live up to its reputation as a speed demon? Mind you I don't solely fly the mustang. I'm just another shallow ******* captivated by its looks, but who cheats around with Focke Wulfs http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif.

Xiolablu3
07-14-2007, 12:33 AM
Like Gryphon says, take a look at the actual P51 with it laminar flow wing built for high speed.

Planes with laminar flow wing are not good at low speed manouvrability. AKA dogfighting.

Once you examine the real plane's specs/design and compare it to other WW2 planes, you should find out that IL2's P51 is one of the most accurate out there.

(As accuarate as we can say without flying one in wartime, anyway...)


ANother problem the P51 has one servers like Warclouds, is that we have a Spring 1944 model of P51D in teh game, and that is always put up against arguably the best plane in the game, the FW190D9 which is from very late 1944.

So if you see the Dora on the Axis planeset you are immediatley suffering a 8/9 month development disadvatage.

Really the P51 that we have in the game should be up against FW190A's not Doras, but you would never hear the whining stop if that happened, so I am afraid you will have to put up with it.

Not all servers have Dora vs P51D, you can find some maps on some of the servers where the P51 is the fastest plane ont eh map, but not too many.

Good luck!.

You picked possibly the hardest plane to do well in. If you can master it like some have then you will be a great pilot.

Remember stay very fast. Get high before you engage and zoom around, dont linger. You do have the best zoom climb and excellent high speed manouvrability so use that to your advantage, but dont keep turning until you have bled all your energy away or you will be a sitting duck.

You might be better off learning in a FW190 or Tempest first, then moving to the P51, they are very similar planes, but the Tempest and FW190 have 4x20mm canno which are far more destructive..

K_Freddie
07-14-2007, 01:20 AM
You can dogfight in both the P51 and Dora and A's, but you have to be very awake to the quirks of the a/c, so that you can compensate in time.

If you're having problems with any, change your way of flying them - the light will suddenly shine.
http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_cool.gif

Brain32
07-14-2007, 02:24 AM
I find the P-51's elevator response to be quite tempermental compared to Warbirds or Targetware where it's my favourite ride.
Well you see, couple of patches ago, people here were complaining about P51's elevator authority, as P51 complaints tend to be quite pushy, developers made it the way it is today, how accurate it is - I don't know. The funny thing is that those now complain about the effect of such a responsive elevator http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif Yes, we are strange people http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif
Anyway I've been using a little trick to tone that effect down a bit, trim her 9-11 clicks(or even more, experiment a bit until you find what you feel is best) nose down and you will push through manouvers a lot better and safer and still retain the ability to use good parts of the highly responisve elevator(e.g. sudden snap stall which you can use as evasion tehnique).

DKoor
07-14-2007, 02:35 AM
Originally posted by Brain32:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content"> I find the P-51's elevator response to be quite tempermental compared to Warbirds or Targetware where it's my favourite ride. The funny thing is that those now complain about the effect of such a responsive elevator http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif Yes, we are strange people http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>Yep.....some Spit flyers get owned due to good elevator response at high speed.....pilot simply "black out" while trying t0 0wn teh 109 doing a hard deflection......lol I know I'm guilty of this http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/59.gif

MrMojok
07-14-2007, 03:28 AM
Originally posted by p0wderfinger:
I'm not one of those people who believes the "Mustang won the war" propaganda, I simply fly it because I just love the plane itself, and while not exceptional in any one area, I found it to be "just enough" in all categories to be able to do well, and against the tougher matchups, atleast survive.

I feel exactly the same way as you do, word-for-word. I will add that there are several people I could name who fly online, one of whom has posted in this thread, that are death incarnate in the P-51.

So just keep working with it. Every minute spent online in it will make you better and better, if you are determined.

PF_Coastie
07-14-2007, 07:59 AM
This is one of the best "level headed" threads I have seen regarding the P51. Well done fellas!

I have one question since things are going so well.

Don't you think the wing break-off is way to sensitive?

All it takes is any use of ailerons during a hard pull up at over 600kph and a wing will snap. I find it very hard to believe that this actually happened in real life to the extent it does in this game. If you are going 700-800kph it is ultra sensistive. Even the slightest Aileron/elevator combo will result in wing snap.

Don't get me wrong, I can fly the P51 all night without snapping the wing in high speed dives because I have learned what I can and can not do in the plane. But that one thing is what keeps me flying mostly the Jug instead of the P51.

But don't you guys think the wing snap is a bit overdone?

Thanks,

Bearcat99
07-14-2007, 08:01 AM
Originally posted by p0wderfinger:
If I'm not flying when I could be flying, it's usually because I'm doing research on airplanes. I'm not one of those people who believes the "Mustang won the war" propaganda, I simply fly it because I just love the plane itself, and while not exceptional in any one area, I found it to be "just enough" in all categories to be able to do well, and against the tougher matchups, atleast survive. While survival isn't really an issue, I find the doing well half to be a lot tougher in Il2, yet I still see dedicated 'stang squadrons so there must be a way to do it right. I had suspicions about the laminar flow wings which I understand are designed for speed, not lift, but shouldn't the high speed handling, where airspeed offsets disadvantages in airfoil lift, still live up to its reputation as a speed demon? Mind you I don't solely fly the mustang. I'm just another shallow ******* captivated by its looks, but who cheats around with Focke Wulfs http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif.

I feel the same way about the bird.... However I recommend that you consider adjusting the elevator response in the inputs section. As much as people complain about things like that in the sim I think many forget that while they cant mod the plane.. they can adjust the controls somewhat.

AS for the wing snap... man I havent lost a wing in a P-51 in a while. I have been fast.. 500mph in a dive... the thing is you have to make gentle moves on the stick... I also use trim when iat high speeds as it tends to put less stress on the AC.

arjisme
07-14-2007, 08:29 AM
Originally posted by PF_Coastie:
But don't you guys think the wing snap is a bit overdone? Since the sim cannot give us through-the-seat feedback on the G forces being exerted during manoeuvers, I am reluctant to conclude the wing snap is overdone. It really may just be that the control surfaces are more responsive at speed in this bird than in other planes.

It would be really interesting if we had an optional G-meter to display those forces. Then we could better say whether the wings snap off too early.

drose01
07-14-2007, 08:40 AM
With enough stick time, you will learn to stop snapping your wings and appreciate your elevator authority as an asset.

PF_Coastie
07-14-2007, 08:45 AM
Originally posted by Bearcat99:

AS for the wing snap... man I havent lost a wing in a P-51 in a while. I have been fast.. 500mph in a dive... the thing is you have to make gentle moves on the stick... I also use trim when iat high speeds as it tends to put less stress on the AC.

Now that is one thing I never use after initial adjustment "trim". For the high speed birds, I always nose trim down a bit because at high speed the nose really wants to come up and it takes a good bit of stick pressure to keep it down. But if you trim down to much, you will induce some nose wobble which makes it harder to stay on target. I like to trim nose down just enough so that at high speed I still have to put some stick pressure down.

I also have not snapped a wing in the P51 for a long time, BUT I can make it happen at will when at high speeds. It just seems you have to really Baby the P51 too much at high speeds.

JG4_Helofly
07-14-2007, 08:46 AM
Does RL documents exist about controle authority in the Mustang? I remember that someone wrote the p51 had high controle forces similar to the 109.

PF_Coastie
07-14-2007, 08:49 AM
Originally posted by drose01:
With enough stick time, you will learn to stop snapping your wings and appreciate your elevator authority as an asset.

Hopefully that was not directed at me. If so, you may want to re-read my first post where I said I can fly all day without snapping the wings.

I still think it is way overdone at high speeds.

If you put a 190 pilot in a P51, He will snap the wings on every flight if he does not fly it much, without a doubt. It is the only plane in the game that will do this when it is well within its speed envelope.

Scorpion.233
07-14-2007, 09:06 AM
86 Pages be sure.

TheBandit_76
07-14-2007, 09:14 AM
In short, Oleg does not have the P51 right.

drose01
07-14-2007, 09:15 AM
Originally posted by PF_Coastie:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by drose01:
With enough stick time, you will learn to stop snapping your wings and appreciate your elevator authority as an asset.

Hopefully that was not directed at me. If so, you may want to re-read my first post where I said I can fly all day without snapping the wings.
. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
No, didn't mean to direct it at anyone specifically.

To further explain, I do think that although the elevator authority can make it dangerous to maneuver at high speeds, it will also let you make strong, precise turns at high speeds too, a real advantage at times.

MrMojok
07-14-2007, 09:25 AM
I have set my elevator curve on the P51 to this:

elevator=0 18 34 45 52 60 69 78 83 86 90 0

It has helped me and I almost never snap wings.

Obviously because of these settings I cannot pull full deflection at slower speeds either, but I just try to be a little gentler on the stick with this plane anyway.

For a 109, I have to set it back up to 100.

Clipper_51
07-14-2007, 10:13 AM
If you go with the defaul joystick settings in IL2 you shouldn't have too much difficulty keeping the wings on.

Whenever the speedometer goes over 450 mph IAS, I always pull gently while in the Mustang. Most times it puts you in lag pursuit anyway against a target that is blowing his "E" pulling hard on the stick. Just roll out above him and come down again for another attack.

Hard turning bandits don't bother me. It's the fast ones that scare me!

GH_Klingstroem
07-14-2007, 10:38 AM
I fly the p51D-20 ONLY when flying online. I fly on Warclouds WF and I do agree that the p51 in game does have few problems that should be fixed.
1st is the wing snapping issue. Its not that the wings are weaker than other planes, its just that its too damn easy to use elevators at high speed. I have read several reallife accounts of p51 pilots having to use trim to get a p51 out of a dive. The controls should get stiff at high speed. Just not as early as a 109. I personally didnt fly the p51 before this so called "fix" was made for the p51 elevator so I dunno what it was like before but now it is too senstive at high speed. PERIOD.

I can live with it tho as other people have pointed out, trim down will help!
However as I posted many months ago, the P51 is deadly in the right hands! fly with RADS closed and never use 100% prop pitch execpt in steep climbs and she wont overheat and give u plenty of extra speed vs those D9s!
Today I was in close in dogfight vs 3 190s and when it got too hot and dove away, closed the rads and came down on prop pitch and they chased me for 5 mins across the map and never caught me and I know there was a Dora 9 among them.

The 2nd fix that needs to be fixed for the p51 and most US planes is the "point convergence"!
It makes it way too hard for the average pilot to hit with the .50s. Instead the spread should be increased to resemble what spitfires MGs have. This increases the chance of hitting ur target ALOT so u cane cripple him and then u can finish him off!! Trust me! Try the 4 MGS on the spit and use them ONLY and see the amount of hits on ur target. Now imagine if there were 6 MGs and they were .50s. Mmmm DEADLY!
Anyway some people might recognise me form online as F16_kling and know that I can do well in the P51! trust me she is deadly!!

Jaws2002
07-14-2007, 10:48 AM
The 2nd fix that needs to be fixed for the p51 and most US planes is the "point convergence"!
It makes it way too hard for the average pilot to hit with the .50s. Instead the spread should be increased to resemble what spitfires MGs have.

For this one as well, you can thank some of the people here in the forum. When the Pony came to the game it had exactly the type of convergence you ask for. Few Mustang fans started posting screenshots and tracks and asked for point convergence. They got it.

VW-IceFire
07-14-2007, 10:59 AM
Originally posted by Jaws2002:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">The 2nd fix that needs to be fixed for the p51 and most US planes is the "point convergence"!
It makes it way too hard for the average pilot to hit with the .50s. Instead the spread should be increased to resemble what spitfires MGs have.

For this one as well, you can thank some of the people here in the forum. When the Pony came to the game it had exactly the type of convergence you ask for. Few Mustang fans started posting screenshots and tracks and asked for point convergence. They got it. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Not exactly. When we started it had a huge spread that was more like a shotgun scatter effect. Then it was changed and the community voted overwhelmingly to change the spread to point convergence. And so it was done.

The same thing goes for the elevator. Everyone was ticked that the Mustang had a heavy elevator at very high speed (we're talking very high speed) so it was changed and now its really easy to break a wing.

In this case the community asked...got what it wanted...and then people in general changed their minds.

I personally like the point convergence but I know its not effective for most people.

GH_Klingstroem
07-14-2007, 11:07 AM
I kinda like it too, but hitting with it is very very difficult!!
A shotgun effect is a big NO! I dont consider the MGs on the spitfire to have a "shotgun" effect but I see them hitting its target ALOT more, even far away from its convergence setting! I think now a days when the single .50s round is effective enough, we should leave the point convergence and make the spread less tight!!

Polyperhon
07-14-2007, 11:17 AM
http://forums.ubi.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/23110283/m/9111001964/p/1

I wonder what can you say here that was not said in the past 44 pages

heywooood
07-14-2007, 11:18 AM
such a well roasted chestnut...so golden yet so close to being...ah feckit - this thing is burnt to a cinder. Next.

Xiolablu3
07-14-2007, 11:40 AM
The P51 was an excellent, ground breaking plane.

It just a shame that its best features dont translate well into short range, low altitude, turn and burn fights which is what happens online 99% of the time.


Great PLane in real life.

No so great for Simming unfortunatly.

Thats not Olegs fault or the P51's fault. Its just the nature of gaming.

stalkervision
07-14-2007, 11:40 AM
"...but it was the the p-47 that broke the back of the luftwaffe.." http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/10.gif

http://www.skylighters.org/p47/index.html

VMF-214_HaVoK
07-14-2007, 12:16 PM
Originally posted by FritzGryphon:
You could do some research on laminar flow wings, or test pilot reports for P-51s in general.

It's a little hard to get past the popular history that surrounds planes like the P-51, but if you try and ignore the hyperbolic stuff and look at the specs, I think you'll find it's quite accurate in this sim compared to others.

The T/W ratio and wing loading alone is enough to see it would turn like a FW-190. The laminar flow wing, outstanding for low drag and efficiency, is also dreadfully snappy (that's the whole point of a laminar flow wing). Further concessions to low drag made the stabilizers too small, even with the fillet added.

Most other sims simply model popular history as-is in an attempt to get sales, or simply because the developers do not know any better. In fact, they 'miss' a lot, including all of the test pilot remarks about the P-51 through it's career.

The P-51s in general are extremely fast and unmatchable in BnZ, I'd say the the best plane, barring jets. It doesn't need false performance figures on top of it.

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/agreepost.gif Well said.

VMF-214_HaVoK
07-14-2007, 12:17 PM
Originally posted by Xiolablu3:
The P51 was an excellent, ground breaking plane.

It just a shame that its best features dont translate well into short range, low altitude, turn and burn fights which is what happens online 99% of the time.


Great PLane in real life.

No so great for Simming unfortunatly.

Thats not Olegs fault or the P51's fault. Its just the nature of gaming.

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/agreepost.gif Another well said post. Those two have pretty much summed it up for you.

BfHeFwMe
07-14-2007, 12:50 PM
And here I thought the old readme file several patches ago said it was the most realistic ever modeled. It being tested by an actual Mustang owner/pilot and all. But that wasn't good enough for this gang, and it was 'fixed' with tears. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/88.gif

Bearcat99
07-14-2007, 12:56 PM
Originally posted by heywooood:
such a well roasted chestnut...so golden yet so close to being...ah feckit - this thing is burnt to a cinder. Next.

Yes but there is a reason why these posts keep coming up... The P-51 for better or worse is one of the most popular American fighters of WWII. pOwderfinger has what... 8 posts? Unless he is a troll under a different name just trying to stir the pot... all this is new to him... the FB Pony I mean.... so he has every right to ask about it...... even if it has been beaten, slain, resurrected and beaten and re killed again and again and again again... As long as we get new blood in here this will keep popping up... just like the mod thing.... Only for the life of me I cant think of as snappy an answer for this as I could for that little reoccurring gem. Plus I still think that this overall is the best P-51 so far. Except of course for the very first one that came in a patch.... 1. something I think... just before AEP... of course that Mustang was unrealistically good.. and after some of our buddies across the ocean nearly lost their minds it was "fixed" to the neutered, clawless, toothless plane is was for some time... until it steadily began to improve... I think the 4.08 Mustang is the best one yet overall... I still think it looses E a bit fast.. but I am no engineer, pilot or programmer.... so I just accept it as it is and try to make the most of it. I have found that with this series there is always room to grow as far as maximizing your performance in any of the planes here... When you think you have it down... keep fiddling.

carguy_
07-14-2007, 01:31 PM
Originally posted by VW-IceFire:
Not exactly. When we started it had a huge spread that was more like a shotgun scatter effect. Then it was changed and the community voted overwhelmingly to change the spread to point convergence. And so it was done.

In this case the community asked...got what it wanted...and then people in general changed their minds.

I personally like the point convergence but I know its not effective for most people.

I do not remember any kind of poll.I do remember certain folks posted 14 pager threads attacking Oleg.A definite LOLZ at some of the quotes : "Oleg,you`re wrong I`m telling you!"

Point convergence is something you want for relative low ROF high power weapons and those are mainly cannons.Now ask them why do they expect to see effects same as say using the MG 151/20?

Yes,point convergence was preferred by P38 pilots but that plane has its armament in the nose,don`t it?

Box convergence is the way you want to use 50cal because no matter how concentrated it is,it won`t do the same damage as high explosive 20mm does!

Firing from 200m you had the entire enemy fighter covered by led,stricken in the engine,canopy,control cables and fuel tank in one moment.

Changing to point convergence was the change which took much of P51`s destructiveness and unrealistic which was also said by Oleg Maddox himself.

VMF-214_HaVoK
07-14-2007, 02:42 PM
Originally posted by Bearcat99:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by heywooood:
such a well roasted chestnut...so golden yet so close to being...ah feckit - this thing is burnt to a cinder. Next.

Yes but there is a reason why these posts keep coming up... The P-51 for better or worse is one of the most popular American fighters of WWII. pOwderfinger has what... 8 posts? Unless he is a troll under a different name just trying to stir the pot... all this is new to him... the FB Pony I mean.... so he has every right to ask about it...... even if it has been beaten, slain, resurrected and beaten and re killed again and again and again again... As long as we get new blood in here this will keep popping up... just like the mod thing.... Only for the life of me I cant think of as snappy an answer for this as I could for that little reoccurring gem. Plus I still think that this overall is the best P-51 so far. Except of course for the very first one that came in a patch.... 1. something I think... just before AEP... of course that Mustang was unrealistically good.. and after some of our buddies across the ocean nearly lost their minds it was "fixed" to the neutered, clawless, toothless plane is was for some time... until it steadily began to improve... I think the 4.08 Mustang is the best one yet overall... I still think it looses E a bit fast.. but I am no engineer, pilot or programmer.... so I just accept it as it is and try to make the most of it. I have found that with this series there is always room to grow as far as maximizing your performance in any of the planes here... When you think you have it down... keep fiddling. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Mustang took some lumps but near on the level the P-47 has. Remember what it was like when FB shipped? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/53.gif Or how about the original P-40? The P-40 use to blow up into pieces when you dove it. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/35.gif I cant remember the exact speed this happened but it was not very fast at all. But eventually Oleg and crew get things right and 4.08 is pretty good proof of that. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif

S!

horseback
07-14-2007, 02:44 PM
I'm sorry, but what I seem to remember originally causing all the uproar about the modelling of the M2 fifty cal was that each single gun had MUCH greater dispersion than any other machine gun in the sim. A fifty's bullets (except, oddly, on the P-39) seemed to spread a great deal more over the same range. Gibbage and others proved this conclusively, to the great distress of many on these boards who seem to confuse anything in this sim that confirms their prejudices with a proof of fact.

Then the problem became that all aircraft equipped with the fifty fired all the guns at precisely the same instant every time it fired a round in every burst and all of them firing at precisely the same rate,leading to a ridiculous amount of shaking (except for the Soviet re-engined P-40), and there was a mysteriously consistant tendency of the target aircraft's wings and fuselage to slip between your bullets.

After this was 'fixed' by modelling two rates of fire, with different rates of fire for half the fifty cal guns, there were some USN fighters that had a faster rate of fire for the guns on one wing than the other, causing a bit of a yaw problem...

Now that all that has been fixed, some are complaining that the guns are harmonized to a single point, and think that unless you are firing precisely on or about the convergence range, a LOT less damage will be done to your target.

The fact is that Oleg tends to take criticism a bit hard, especially when it is harsh and sufficiently vague so as to allow misinterpretation, and will take his repairs to a bit of an extreme to get back at his critics.

Beware of complaining too much about the FM or anything else about your favorite WWII fighter as it is depicted in Il-2; you might get- a little too exactly- what you ask for.

cheers

horseback

VMF-214_HaVoK
07-14-2007, 02:52 PM
Beware of complaining too much about the FM or anything else about your favorite WWII fighter as it is depicted in Il-2; you might get- a little too exactly- what you ask for.


I heard that!

S!

ElAurens
07-14-2007, 03:34 PM
I always find it interesting that when someone complains that the P51 in game is poor in the turn, another poster will say it's because of the laminar flow wings. But, when someone from the other side complains that the P51 is uber, another poster will say yeah, it really didn't have laminar flow wings so it shouldn't be so fast, dive so well, etc...

Can't have it both ways, now can we?

horseback
07-14-2007, 03:47 PM
Actually, with semi-laminar flow wings, some would think it should be equally pathetic at BOTH turning and diving, which would not be so much as having it both ways as much as getting it both ways.

It was a friggin' compromise; the intent was that it should be faster than it would have been with the P-40's wings, and turn a bit better than a P-47.

cheers

horseback

HellToupee
07-14-2007, 04:04 PM
P51s fine but as some one said its often on servers facing much later aircraft like the d9, which generally outperform and outgun it at all heights.

I think the p51s fm is fine, it flies alright responsive and good vis, but its guns ugh, especially with the 190 dm where even 4 20mms at times can seem not enough :P

Xiolablu3
07-14-2007, 04:20 PM
Yeah, I agree. One big problem I see is that too many people base planes ingame charateristics and qualities on Warclouds planeset.

The number of people who I see complaining about the Bf109 being poor because they only fly late 1944 I find astounding.

Where I play the 109 is an uber machine through 1940-42. 1940 and '41 it the best plane in the game.

Also I see 'Spitfires are Uber' a lot. Not where I fly. About half the time I see the Spitfire mkV on red vs much better blue planes like the 109F4/G2 and FW190A4/5

I think its the same with the P51. FLy some other servers with some other, dare I say more realistic, planesets. The P51's natural enemy was not the Dora, it was the 190A5/A6 for the P51B and the 190A8 for the P51D.

There are so many other servers with such varied planesets, I find it strange that people want to limit it to SPitfire IX/Tempest/P51 vs DOra/109G10 all the time.

Thats just ONE planeset in a game which spans the whole war. In 1943 early 1944 the P51 will be facing its natural enemies. If you want to fly the P51 in a more historical environment, find a server which has a map from this period.

1943 for example :- P51B/P47/P38 vs 109G6/FW190A5/Machii

Or mid 1944 with P51D/P47/P38/A20 vs FW190A9/109G10/Me110/Stuka/Ju88

LAte 1944 is a fun period, but its just a small snippet of the period covered by IL2. There are even more fun planesets/years, trust me.

MrMojok
07-14-2007, 06:30 PM
Are you talking about the UKded servers, Xio?

Brain32
07-14-2007, 06:36 PM
especially with the 190 dm where even 4 20mms at times can seem not enough :P Still not toned down enough???? As it is now, after enourmus amounts of previous whineing by guys with 0,89 hit percentage, 190's are not strucutrally tougher than the Spitfire, on top of that the inital damage you can make on a FW190 even with low caliber weapons is ridiculous. I will not even mention the 109 as that one would fit extremely well on Pacific with early Zeros.

The number of people who I see complaining about the Bf109 being poor because they only fly late 1944 I find astounding.
And why would the 109 be a piece of junk as it is in late war???????

As for the P51D in game, I have no trouble kicking the living sh1t out of Luftwaffe with it, and no I'm not up there at 9000m diving on people, I fly it like a FW190 very often between the deck and 4000m. Do you know why is Dora a problem for people on WC? Not because of speed or climbrate or those pathetic guns, a smart pilot with il2c will know what altitudes to use against it same as the fact that nothing catches a P51 in a shallow dive. The problem is that Dora is really, really close in a TURN, you can't simply bank and pull with a Dora on your 6 and 80% of people simply does not know anything else thanks to spoiledbratFM by 1C. It's not the guns or speed or anything, I'm telling you make P51D outturn all FW's and all 109's at all speeds, and you will not hear another P51 complaint ever again http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

VMF-214_HaVoK
07-14-2007, 07:22 PM
Originally posted by Xiolablu3:
Yeah, I agree. One big problem I see is that too many people base planes ingame charateristics and qualities on Warclouds planeset.

The number of people who I see complaining about the Bf109 being poor because they only fly late 1944 I find astounding.

Where I play the 109 is an uber machine through 1940-42. 1940 and '41 it the best plane in the game.

Also I see 'Spitfires are Uber' a lot. Not where I fly. About half the time I see the Spitfire mkV on red vs much better blue planes like the 109F4/G2 and FW190A4/5

I think its the same with the P51. FLy some other servers with some other, dare I say more realistic, planesets. The P51's natural enemy was not the Dora, it was the 190A5/A6 for the P51B and the 190A8 for the P51D.

There are so many other servers with such varied planesets, I find it strange that people want to limit it to SPitfire IX/Tempest/P51 vs DOra/109G10 all the time.

Thats just ONE planeset in a game which spans the whole war. In 1943 early 1944 the P51 will be facing its natural enemies. If you want to fly the P51 in a more historical environment, find a server which has a map from this period.

1943 for example :- P51B/P47/P38 vs 109G6/FW190A5/Machii

Or mid 1944 with P51D/P47/P38/A20 vs FW190A9/109G10/Me110/Stuka/Ju88

LAte 1944 is a fun period, but its just a small snippet of the period covered by IL2. There are even more fun planesets/years, trust me.

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/agreepost.gif Could not have said it better myself. Man, Im really liking this thread as I barely have to type. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

VMF-214_HaVoK
07-14-2007, 07:24 PM
thanks to spoiledbratFM by 1C

You really put a lot of thought into that comment. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif Seriously what combat sim has a better flight model?

p0wderfinger
07-14-2007, 08:59 PM
Originally posted by GH_Klingstroem:
I fly the p51D-20 ONLY when flying online. I fly on Warclouds WF and I do agree that the p51 in game does have few problems that should be fixed.
1st is the wing snapping issue. Its not that the wings are weaker than other planes, its just that its too damn easy to use elevators at high speed. I have read several reallife accounts of p51 pilots having to use trim to get a p51 out of a dive. The controls should get stiff at high speed. Just not as early as a 109. I personally didnt fly the p51 before this so called "fix" was made for the p51 elevator so I dunno what it was like before but now it is too senstive at high speed. PERIOD.

I can live with it tho as other people have pointed out, trim down will help!
However as I posted many months ago, the P51 is deadly in the right hands! fly with RADS closed and never use 100% prop pitch execpt in steep climbs and she wont overheat and give u plenty of extra speed vs those D9s!
Today I was in close in dogfight vs 3 190s and when it got too hot and dove away, closed the rads and came down on prop pitch and they chased me for 5 mins across the map and never caught me and I know there was a Dora 9 among them.

The 2nd fix that needs to be fixed for the p51 and most US planes is the "point convergence"!
It makes it way too hard for the average pilot to hit with the .50s. Instead the spread should be increased to resemble what spitfires MGs have. This increases the chance of hitting ur target ALOT so u cane cripple him and then u can finish him off!! Trust me! Try the 4 MGS on the spit and use them ONLY and see the amount of hits on ur target. Now imagine if there were 6 MGs and they were .50s. Mmmm DEADLY!
Anyway some people might recognise me form online as F16_kling and know that I can do well in the P51! trust me she is deadly!!
Hm, I do find the 50cals hard to hit with due to a number of reasons. The tracer path is hard to see compared to the tracers that have smoke trails. Hits are not obvious like with cannons when you can see the big "poof" so often I'm waiting to spot the debris fall off the target which by then the situation has changed. And also because of all the damn shaking.

In Warbirds if I found a 190 of any varient below me, I knew I had an instant kill as long as nobody else showed up to ruin my party. Now I know that Il2 compare shouldn't be taken as the gospel, but does the 190D actually outturn the P-51D or is that the result of the P-51 being loaded on max fuel? How does the P-51 compare against the 109D and Tempest in game?

Bearcat99
07-14-2007, 09:30 PM
Originally posted by VMF-214_HaVoK:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Bearcat99:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by heywooood:
such a well roasted chestnut...so golden yet so close to being...ah feckit - this thing is burnt to a cinder. Next.

Yes but there is a reason why these posts keep coming up... The P-51 for better or worse is one of the most popular American fighters of WWII. pOwderfinger has what... 8 posts? Unless he is a troll under a different name just trying to stir the pot... all this is new to him... the FB Pony I mean.... so he has every right to ask about it...... even if it has been beaten, slain, resurrected and beaten and re killed again and again and again again... As long as we get new blood in here this will keep popping up... just like the mod thing.... Only for the life of me I cant think of as snappy an answer for this as I could for that little reoccurring gem. Plus I still think that this overall is the best P-51 so far. Except of course for the very first one that came in a patch.... 1. something I think... just before AEP... of course that Mustang was unrealistically good.. and after some of our buddies across the ocean nearly lost their minds it was "fixed" to the neutered, clawless, toothless plane is was for some time... until it steadily began to improve... I think the 4.08 Mustang is the best one yet overall... I still think it looses E a bit fast.. but I am no engineer, pilot or programmer.... so I just accept it as it is and try to make the most of it. I have found that with this series there is always room to grow as far as maximizing your performance in any of the planes here... When you think you have it down... keep fiddling. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Mustang took some lumps but near on the level the P-47 has. Remember what it was like when FB shipped? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/53.gif Or how about the original P-40? The P-40 use to blow up into pieces when you dove it. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/35.gif I cant remember the exact speed this happened but it was not very fast at all. But eventually Oleg and crew get things right and 4.08 is pretty good proof of that. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif

S! </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yeah that was @ 400 or so fopr the P-40. If I remember right the He-111 actually had a better roll rate than the first P-47. The one thing that always got me with the 50s was that the 50s on the P-40 just seemed to be easier to hit with. Even now I can still do better with the P-40 than any other plane as far as 6 50s go. I dont know why.

Ratsack
07-14-2007, 10:29 PM
I actually think the P-51 B and D are beautiful planes in this sim, particularly since 4.07. I find them excellent planes for boom and zoom, or for dogfighting. I have one gripe, however. I can't hit the side of a barn with the 0.50s. I notice a lot of other players on line having the same problem (particularly when I'm flying Blue http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif: I hear the guns and see the bullets fly past, and none of them hit. It's like magic. ).

I know from off-line shooting practice that the 0.50s work. I can regularly set Fw 190s on fire, and bombers, with the six 0.50s of the D. Wings come off. 109s explode. The guns work.

The problem is that these effects are under controlled conditions where I can set up an approach and use the zoom view in order to BE ABLE TO SEE THE PHARKING TRACERS, and so can śwalk' the sparklies into the target.

As a consequence, my online experience with the Pony is that I can happily dogfight till the cows come home, but I can't shoot anything down. Well, not quite nothing, but bloody close to it. The inability to see the tracers renders my usually poor shooting utterly sh1thouse.

Nice plane, though. The guys who can aim really kick arse in it. The performance aspects are largely a question of good trim.

Cheers,
Ratsack

HellToupee
07-15-2007, 05:32 AM
Originally posted by Brain32:
Still not toned down enough???? As it is now, after enourmus amounts of previous whineing by guys with 0,89 hit percentage, 190's are not strucutrally tougher than the Spitfire, on top of that the inital damage you can make on a FW190 even with low caliber weapons is ridiculous. I will not even mention the 109 as that one would fit extremely well on Pacific with early Zeros.

same as a spitfire 109 like a zero? yea sure brain, please share what you are smoking.




As for the P51D in game, I have no trouble kicking the living sh1t out of Luftwaffe with it, and no I'm not up there at 9000m diving on people, I fly it like a FW190 very often between the deck and 4000m. Do you know why is Dora a problem for people on WC? Not because of speed or climbrate or those pathetic guns, a smart pilot with il2c will know what altitudes to use against it same as the fact that nothing catches a P51 in a shallow dive. The problem is that Dora is really, really close in a TURN, you can't simply bank and pull with a Dora on your 6 and 80% of people simply does not know anything else thanks to spoiledbratFM by 1C. It's not the guns or speed or anything, I'm telling you make P51D outturn all FW's and all 109's at all speeds, and you will not hear another P51 complaint ever again http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

Yea u have no problem flying around ur base killing off lone bandits woop dee do.

P51 is simply outrun most heights narrow ranges exist where it has a small advantage, Doras climb rate is simply far far better, even better than real life infact p51 climbs closer to an a8, as for guns doras guns are far far stronger.

Problem is not turn, problem is p51 is overall outperformed and outgunned by planes far later than it that it most often has to fight it has no standout qualities, range does not factor, the only stand out 51 in ur typical 44 ub3r fest is a mustang III, yet its guns are so ineffective ur better off hurling insults. With the difference in service entries of p51 dore its like a 109g6 vs a spit XIV.

p0wderfinger
07-15-2007, 05:34 AM
Regarding prop pitch, is there a chart online that shows the optimal settings for different speeds? At the moment I'm using 100% for sustained climbs, 95-85% between 200mph-300mph, and down to 80% above that. Would be nice if someone could give me some insight as to Mustang, Dora and Tempest matchups. Does the Dora really out-turn the 'stang at high speeds as indicated on IL2 compare?

GH_Klingstroem
07-15-2007, 05:34 AM
Thats exactly what I talking about Ratsack!!! They fly nivcely but, all of them do BUT with point convergence its gonna be difficult to actually hit something. The 0.50 have alsmost NO spread so if ur target isnt EXACLTY on the pipper in ur gunsight, ALL of your bullets will miss! Not very realistic! It might have worked for a few people IRL but "box convergence" is what we need for the .50s as we have them in game (with almost invisible tracers)... We just need Olegs team to know before its too late!

Brain32
07-15-2007, 05:51 AM
same as a spitfire 109 like a zero? yea sure brain, please share what you are smoking.
Cut the cr@p, you and this allied forum made enough damage to this game, what do you complain about really, the fact that you still have to hit atleast once? Do you want to be able to just look at them and and they disintegrate? Yes the FW190 is not stronger than a Spitfire and 109 is ridiculous, whine more and maybe even a collision with the cloud will be dangerous. Thank you for ruining this game to allied sh1tfest it is now.

Yea u have no problem flying around ur base killing off lone bandits woop dee do.
Hardly can happen on Red as 80% of team is turnfighting over Blue base since even 5 ton heavy allied wonder clown wagons turn better than anything Axis, save the P51, the only plane left on red that I have interest in flying, as most others are ridiculous, either turn like mad, or don't overheat, or have extra thrust out of nowhere, or can soak up 30mm's with no problem, etc.
Ofcourse for you it's still not enough http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/winky.gif


I use to look forward to new patches for this game, now I'm terrified of them, as each next one might mean the death of il2 for me. Maybe that's what Oleg is trying to do, make this one a POS so we rush to buy a new one? Hope not, as this is bad commercial http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-indifferent.gif

HellToupee
07-15-2007, 06:07 AM
ahh yes brain every red plane is hugely overmodeled and every blue plane is do hard done by....

The day you see reality is the day hell freezes over.

joeap
07-15-2007, 06:18 AM
Another idiotfest.

Codex1971
07-15-2007, 07:00 AM
Originally posted by Ratsack:
I actually think the P-51 B and D are beautiful planes in this sim, particularly since 4.07. I find them excellent planes for boom and zoom, or for dogfighting. I have one gripe, however. I can't hit the side of a barn with the 0.50s. I notice a lot of other players on line having the same problem (particularly when I'm flying Blue http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif: I hear the guns and see the bullets fly past, and none of them hit. It's like magic. ).

I know from off-line shooting practice that the 0.50s work. I can regularly set Fw 190s on fire, and bombers, with the six 0.50s of the D. Wings come off. 109s explode. The guns work.

The problem is that these effects are under controlled conditions where I can set up an approach and use the zoom view in order to BE ABLE TO SEE THE PHARKING TRACERS, and so can śwalk' the sparklies into the target.

As a consequence, my online experience with the Pony is that I can happily dogfight till the cows come home, but I can't shoot anything down. Well, not quite nothing, but bloody close to it. The inability to see the tracers renders my usually poor shooting utterly sh1thouse.

Nice plane, though. The guys who can aim really kick arse in it. The performance aspects are largely a question of good trim.

Cheers,
Ratsack

Next time your online try and take notice of your stress levels during online combat. I notice my aim can get way off when online because I'm not breathing right and I tense up when lining up my shots.

Even though it's a sim, it doesn't mean its effect on you is different.

Ratsack
07-15-2007, 07:07 AM
Too right!!

I fly best when stressed! My situational awareness is much better when I fly in constant fear of being bounced. I find after landing that these are usually my multiple-kill sorties...in the Fw 190 A-8. In the P-51 D-20 (which I fly like a Focke-Wulf) I feel so superior to the Axis junk that I get blase, then I get frustrated (because I can't hit anything), and then I get shot down.

Doh!

I find I'm better off on the edge of my seat in my Anton 8 than getting over confident in a hot rod.

cheers,
Ratsack

K_Freddie
07-15-2007, 07:25 AM
Originally posted by Ratsack:
I find I'm better off on the edge of my seat in my Anton 8 than getting over confident in a hot rod.
Ratsack

This is basically the point.

This lot whinging about the P51 seem to be expecting another in a FW to sit lamely in front of them and say 'shoot me'. It's hard to shoot down a good pilot in a good plane, no matter what it is.
Time to go and practice off-line girls.
http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

VW-IceFire
07-15-2007, 07:36 AM
Originally posted by K_Freddie:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Ratsack:
I find I'm better off on the edge of my seat in my Anton 8 than getting over confident in a hot rod.
Ratsack

This is basically the point.

This lot whinging about the P51 seem to be expecting another in a FW to sit lamely in front of them and say 'shoot me'. It's hard to shoot down a good pilot in a good plane, no matter what it is.
Time to go and practice off-line girls.
http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Why take responsibility for ones own abilities or lack thereof when its so much easier to hammer away on the keyboard and complain about how hard done by they are? http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

p0wderfinger
07-15-2007, 08:21 AM
What's a guy gotta do to get some advice around here without inciting a flame war?

Ratsack
07-15-2007, 08:26 AM
Sorry, this is the wrong forum for reasonable discussion. I think it says so somewhere in the membership agreement. Something about diminishing your IQ on entry...

...but all I know is, I'd rather have a full bottle in front of me than a full frontal lobotomy.

cheers,
Ratsack

Jaws2002
07-15-2007, 08:32 AM
In Warbirds if I found a 190 of any varient below me, I knew I had an instant kill as long as nobody else showed up to ruin my party.


You see. Here is the problem. You compare this game with warbirds. Warbirds in made by the same guys that have Aces High. Warbirds is an old game with simple flight model and in the same time, just like aces high, is made to show the players how USAF/P-51 won the war.
Games like this are based on propaganda and create a wrong impression for their players.
In aces high pony is the best z&B'er, can turn with anything and float around at 100km/hr with full power, can fly all day with half wing shot away and the fifties kill in an instant.

Some people get used with that kind of FM and take it as gospel.
This game is made by a designer from another part of the world that can look at P-51 from outside without emotions.

MrMojok
07-15-2007, 08:33 AM
P0wderfinger, in the P51 I have gotten to where I just leave PP on manual except when I need serious speed, then drop the nose a bit for a shallow dive and set it to 90-95%.

Other people around here use manual PP most of the time. They probably outperform me in the P51 but problem is I tend to forget about PP in the heat of battle, and that can be bad. So for me it stays on auto most of the time.

GH_Klingstroem
07-15-2007, 08:49 AM
what are u talking about? The P51 only has manual proppitch! No other option!

MrMojok
07-15-2007, 08:52 AM
that first paragraph should say "auto except when..."

GH_Klingstroem
07-15-2007, 08:59 AM
I see but there is no Auto either! In the US planes u constantly need to change the PP, othrwise u wont get max speed and u will overheat etc etc... Try it!

drose01
07-15-2007, 09:07 AM
Originally posted by Jaws2002:

This game is made by a designer from another part of the world that can look at P-51 from outside without emotions.

Fair enough.

Just curious, do you think this design team has 'emotions' about any planes?

Xiolablu3
07-15-2007, 09:41 AM
Originally posted by drose01:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Jaws2002:

This game is made by a designer from another part of the world that can look at P-51 from outside without emotions.

Fair enough.

Just curious, do you think this design team has 'emotions' about any planes? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Regarding other planes -

Possibly the P39 is a bit too good.

The Yaks seem pretty accurate.

The La5FN is too good for a 1943 model, should be lablled 1944.

The Lagg 3 was missing weight when it first arrived and was better than it should be. ow witht he proper weight its a death trap. The 109G2 has a 11:1 KD ratio over it on Ukded2 servers.

The P47 was wrongly modelled when it first arrived, as to the Russians it looked nothing like a fighter. Now as Maddoc games got more info about it, it has been modelled correctly IMO. It IS very heavy so its never going to be a SPifire, 109 or Yak in the air though.

Of cours there are mistakes, and have been mistakes which were corrected, but its constantly getting better, which is what a flight sim needs, constant tweaking and improvement. Its never going to be completetly 'right', but it can be more right than it was the last patch, if you get what I mean.

If you have real info that a plane might be modelled wrong pls talk about it on the forum or mail 1C.

Xiolablu3
07-15-2007, 09:46 AM
Originally posted by MrMojok:
Are you talking about the UKded servers, Xio?

Well, any servers which have maps from all years really, mate, but I do love UKded's planesets and maps. They have a good server with whatever settings you like to play.

Most of them seem to have been tweaked hard to get good balance and interesting missions.

Obviously thre are those which will never be balanced, like the historical early Eastern front stuff, but I think its still done well.

Also Winds Of War,
Spits Vs 109's (although last time I was on there there was a map on with Spitfire 25lbs vs 109G6A/S and FW190A8 which I thought was a poor match)
Also others , just woke up so I cant remember them all now http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

MrMojok
07-15-2007, 09:50 AM
Yeah, that's a little bit misleading.. it doesn't have a setting where it automatically adjusts the PP depending on what you are doing. It has the game's version of a CSP.

What I mean is, generally I don't touch it at all except to drop down to 90 or 95 if I need to go really fast. I don't back it down to 80 % in a dive like some people do, or set it lower when I'm 'cruising'.

3.JG51_BigBear
07-15-2007, 09:52 AM
Originally posted by drose01:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Jaws2002:

This game is made by a designer from another part of the world that can look at P-51 from outside without emotions.

Fair enough.

Just curious, do you think this design team has 'emotions' about any planes? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I wouldn't be surprised if there was some 'emotion' that went into every plane in the game. I doubt that the flight models are based 100% on real life data. On some level there has to be a seat of the pants/does this feel right factor in every plane. An He-111 can't "feel" as light as a P-47 which can't "feel" as light as a Spitfire. Stuff like that.

3.JG51_BigBear
07-15-2007, 09:55 AM
Originally posted by MrMojok:
Yeah, that's a little bit misleading.. it doesn't have a setting where it automatically adjusts the PP depending on what you are doing. It has the game's version of a CSP.

What I mean is, generally I don't touch it at all except to drop down to 90 or 95 if I need to go really fast. I don't back it down to 80 % in a dive like some people do, or set it lower when I'm 'cruising'.

I agree 100% with this one. I've read a lot of posts about messing with the PP on the P-51 but I usually leave it pegged at 100% for combat situations. Its just one more thing to remember and I have enough trouble tracking bandits as it is. It also seems to make much less difference at low altitude than at high.

MrMojok
07-15-2007, 10:05 AM
Yeah. Like I say, I'm sure someone who is really on the PP and constantly setting it for optimum can outperform me in the P51 by virtue of running it more efficiently and keeping heat lower. I do overheat but I find most of the time throttling back to 98% and waiting till the overheat msg has been off for 5 seconds, then throttling back up I can run fast for a while again. I don't think the CEM in this game does too good a job of simulating CEM sometimes http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

Whirlin_merlin
07-15-2007, 03:01 PM
It is a shame that nature of the game, especially online, doesn't remind us of what was so amazing about the P51D. The fact that it could escort those bombers all that way.
A really remarkable feat to make a warplane that could fly all that way, sorry I mean fight all that way.
Truely amazing.

The nature of this game is that it shows 'interceptors', light, fast climbing type planes and nippy little turners in the most favourable light. It's not so much about bias in how the planes are modelled but limitations of the scenarios the game can 'simulate'.

joeap
07-15-2007, 03:49 PM
Originally posted by TheBandit_76:
In short, Oleg does not have the P51 right.
Yet you praised Oleg a couple of patches back for improving the P-51 to where it should be. So make up you mind.


Originally posted by Brain32:

Cut the cr@p, you and this allied forum made enough damage to this game, what do you complain about really, the fact that you still have to hit atleast once? Do you want to be able to just look at them and and they disintegrate? Yes the FW190 is not stronger than a Spitfire and 109 is ridiculous, whine more and maybe even a collision with the cloud will be dangerous. Thank you for ruining this game to allied sh1tfest it is now.

Hardly can happen on Red as 80% of team is turnfighting over Blue base since even 5 ton heavy allied wonder clown wagons turn better than anything Axis, save the P51, the only plane left on red that I have interest in flying, as most others are ridiculous, either turn like mad, or don't overheat, or have extra thrust out of nowhere, or can soak up 30mm's with no problem, etc.
Ofcourse for you it's still not enough http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/winky.gif


I use to look forward to new patches for this game, now I'm terrified of them, as each next one might mean the death of il2 for me. Maybe that's what Oleg is trying to do, make this one a POS so we rush to buy a new one? Hope not, as this is bad commercial http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-indifferent.gif

Cripes you ARE as bad as the Red tards.

So here is one for raaaid, who is right? Can they both be right? What formula to describe this strange phenomena?

Manu-6S
07-15-2007, 03:50 PM
Originally posted by Xiolablu3:
Spits Vs 109's (although last time I was on there there was a map on with Spitfire 25lbs vs 109G6A/S and FW190A8 which I thought was a poor match)

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

Welcome in the server where allied must win anyway... but I'm grateful to the map maker for inserting the Ta152H in one map.

The map selection is great, only the planeset used (and usually the missions themself) annoy almost all the blue players (even if I fly all the 2 side, the one with less pilots)... like using the G6 in '42 because the G2 is too strong... but seems that Tempest matches the '43 blue planes well... http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-indifferent.gif

I hate that where are not other full difficulty servers in HL... (except Zeke, but I don't like the PTO).

But if you want something different from the quake-wars server like Warclouds (my opinion, I can't seriously fly there) your choice for ETO remains spitvs109.

Manu-6S
07-15-2007, 04:05 PM
Originally posted by joeap:
Cripes you ARE as bad as the Red tards.

So here is one for raaaid, who is right? Can they both be right? What formula to describe this strange phenomena?

I would only to know why flying 109 I am PKed with a single hispano shot. (I'm not complaining about the SpitVc4... the "normal" one)

And in the same way I am PKed in a FW by 0.50 hits everytime I'm so ******ed that I extend too slowly...

Flying Red I never experienced this (except exploding with all the plane, of course).

Oleg, please, finish SoW that I'm starting to hate-love these game.

Kettenhunde
07-15-2007, 06:24 PM
The P-51 for better or worse is one of the most popular American fighters of WWII. pOwderfinger has what... 8 posts? Unless he is a troll under a different name just trying to stir the pot... all this is new to him..

Hi guys,

Just some food for thought. On average in any given Air Force during WWII less than 3% of the total fighter force had the skills to become an Ace.

When game players ask for realism from the game designer, take a second to think if they are in that 3%.

In a hypothetical 100% realism WWII air combat simulation, 97% of the players will have a hard time getting 5 kills, some will get one or two, and the vast majority will get none.

Wouldn't be much fun if it was even possible.

Just to put these discussions of realism in perspective.

Of course that is not even discussing just learning to fly basic aircraft much less a high performance complex one.

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif

All the best,

Crumpp

TheBandit_76
07-15-2007, 06:46 PM
Originally posted by joeap:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by TheBandit_76:
In short, Oleg does not have the P51 right.
Yet you praised Oleg a couple of patches back for improving the P-51 to where it should be. So make up you mind.

</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Heck ya. Don't recall the version, but for one brief patch the P51 as well as a few other allied planes finally got their rudder reattached and stall characteristics were made reasonable.

Then, another patch was quickly released that negated all this and put things back where they were previously.

For me, the Spitfire, P51 and numerous other allied fighters handle as if they are poised on a bar of soap. Even at high speeds, as soon as I pull on the controls the least bit, the wings begin to slip, causing control and most importantly AIM to be a guessing game at best.

Switch to 109s and 190s and my AIM magically reappears.

Someone here will know patch history and be able to refer you to the number. Understand?

TheBandit_76
07-15-2007, 06:49 PM
Or, since you are so into my posting history, tell when I praised Oleg for getting the Mustang "right" and we can correspond that date to that times current version.

Understand?

Viper2005_
07-15-2007, 06:58 PM
To be fair though Kettenhunde, IRL you only get one life.

Most of the online aces have died hundreds of times, and on their 1st life I'd bet that at least 97% of them didn't manage to score 5 kills...

Kettenhunde
07-15-2007, 07:09 PM
To be fair though Kettenhunde, IRL you only get one life.

Certainly.

To be fair though, compared to RL there really is no level that these games can be called "realistic".

They are fun though! We should just enjoy them.

All the best,

Crumpp

Bearcat99
07-15-2007, 07:22 PM
Originally posted by Brain32:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content"> same as a spitfire 109 like a zero? yea sure brain, please share what you are smoking.
Cut the cr@p, you and this allied forum made enough damage to this game, what do you complain about really, the fact that you still have to hit atleast once? Do you want to be able to just look at them and and they disintegrate? Yes the FW190 is not stronger than a Spitfire and 109 is ridiculous, whine more and maybe even a collision with the cloud will be dangerous. Thank you for ruining this game to allied sh1tfest it is now.

Yea u have no problem flying around ur base killing off lone bandits woop dee do.
Hardly can happen on Red as 80% of team is turnfighting over Blue base since even 5 ton heavy allied wonder clown wagons turn better than anything Axis, save the P51, the only plane left on red that I have interest in flying, as most others are ridiculous, either turn like mad, or don't overheat, or have extra thrust out of nowhere, or can soak up 30mm's with no problem, etc.
Ofcourse for you it's still not enough http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/winky.gif


I use to look forward to new patches for this game, now I'm terrified of them, as each next one might mean the death of il2 for me. Maybe that's what Oleg is trying to do, make this one a POS so we rush to buy a new one? Hope not, as this is bad commercial http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-indifferent.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

You need to take your meds or whatever it is you do to calm down man.... http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/icon_twisted.gif quick... http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/winky.gif Leave the boards for a few hours .. whatever... I am in no mood for the friggin drama OK.. so calm down... Keep repeating... "It's only a flight sim... It's only a flight sim..."


Originally posted by VMF-214_HaVoK:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Xiolablu3:
Yeah, I agree. One big problem I see is that too many people base planes ingame charateristics and qualities on Warclouds planeset.

The number of people who I see complaining about the Bf109 being poor because they only fly late 1944 I find astounding.

Where I play the 109 is an uber machine through 1940-42. 1940 and '41 it the best plane in the game.

Also I see 'Spitfires are Uber' a lot. Not where I fly. About half the time I see the Spitfire mkV on red vs much better blue planes like the 109F4/G2 and FW190A4/5

I think its the same with the P51. FLy some other servers with some other, dare I say more realistic, planesets. The P51's natural enemy was not the Dora, it was the 190A5/A6 for the P51B and the 190A8 for the P51D.

There are so many other servers with such varied planesets, I find it strange that people want to limit it to SPitfire IX/Tempest/P51 vs DOra/109G10 all the time.

Thats just ONE planeset in a game which spans the whole war. In 1943 early 1944 the P51 will be facing its natural enemies. If you want to fly the P51 in a more historical environment, find a server which has a map from this period.

1943 for example :- P51B/P47/P38 vs 109G6/FW190A5/Machii

Or mid 1944 with P51D/P47/P38/A20 vs FW190A9/109G10/Me110/Stuka/Ju88

LAte 1944 is a fun period, but its just a small snippet of the period covered by IL2. There are even more fun planesets/years, trust me.

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/agreepost.gif Could not have said it better myself. Man, Im really liking this thread as I barely have to type. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/agreepost.gif too and that is something that so many overlook.


Originally posted by GH_Klingstroem:
what are u talking about? The P51 only has manual proppitch! No other option!

WRONG. The P-51 has auto pitch... with a CSP.. constant speed prop. All changing pitch does is change the rpm. Now you CAN squeeze a bit more out of your plane with tweaking of thye RPMs (prop pitch) and manifold pressure (throttle) .. but to get an idea of a manual vs auto prop pitch go to the 109s. I highly recommend that when in any plane and fiddling with pitch keep looking at the hud display for the PP & throttle settings. As soon as I get to the point where I have it down to a science as far as what MP & RPM settings equal what throttle & PP settings on each plane I fly I will turn off the hudlog and just use my gauges.

BSS_Sniper
07-15-2007, 09:04 PM
Originally posted by Bearcat99:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Brain32:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content"> same as a spitfire 109 like a zero? yea sure brain, please share what you are smoking.
Cut the cr@p, you and this allied forum made enough damage to this game, what do you complain about really, the fact that you still have to hit atleast once? Do you want to be able to just look at them and and they disintegrate? Yes the FW190 is not stronger than a Spitfire and 109 is ridiculous, whine more and maybe even a collision with the cloud will be dangerous. Thank you for ruining this game to allied sh1tfest it is now.

Yea u have no problem flying around ur base killing off lone bandits woop dee do.
Hardly can happen on Red as 80% of team is turnfighting over Blue base since even 5 ton heavy allied wonder clown wagons turn better than anything Axis, save the P51, the only plane left on red that I have interest in flying, as most others are ridiculous, either turn like mad, or don't overheat, or have extra thrust out of nowhere, or can soak up 30mm's with no problem, etc.
Ofcourse for you it's still not enough http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/winky.gif


I use to look forward to new patches for this game, now I'm terrified of them, as each next one might mean the death of il2 for me. Maybe that's what Oleg is trying to do, make this one a POS so we rush to buy a new one? Hope not, as this is bad commercial http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-indifferent.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

You need to take your meds or whatever it is you do to calm down man.... http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/icon_twisted.gif quick... http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/winky.gif Leave the boards for a few hours .. whatever... I am in no mood for the friggin drama OK.. so calm down... Keep repeating... "It's only a flight sim... It's only a flight sim..."


Originally posted by VMF-214_HaVoK:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Xiolablu3:
Yeah, I agree. One big problem I see is that too many people base planes ingame charateristics and qualities on Warclouds planeset.

The number of people who I see complaining about the Bf109 being poor because they only fly late 1944 I find astounding.

Where I play the 109 is an uber machine through 1940-42. 1940 and '41 it the best plane in the game.

Also I see 'Spitfires are Uber' a lot. Not where I fly. About half the time I see the Spitfire mkV on red vs much better blue planes like the 109F4/G2 and FW190A4/5

I think its the same with the P51. FLy some other servers with some other, dare I say more realistic, planesets. The P51's natural enemy was not the Dora, it was the 190A5/A6 for the P51B and the 190A8 for the P51D.

There are so many other servers with such varied planesets, I find it strange that people want to limit it to SPitfire IX/Tempest/P51 vs DOra/109G10 all the time.

Thats just ONE planeset in a game which spans the whole war. In 1943 early 1944 the P51 will be facing its natural enemies. If you want to fly the P51 in a more historical environment, find a server which has a map from this period.

1943 for example :- P51B/P47/P38 vs 109G6/FW190A5/Machii

Or mid 1944 with P51D/P47/P38/A20 vs FW190A9/109G10/Me110/Stuka/Ju88

LAte 1944 is a fun period, but its just a small snippet of the period covered by IL2. There are even more fun planesets/years, trust me.

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/agreepost.gif Could not have said it better myself. Man, Im really liking this thread as I barely have to type. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/agreepost.gif too and that is something that so many overlook.


Originally posted by GH_Klingstroem:
what are u talking about? The P51 only has manual proppitch! No other option!

WRONG. The P-51 has auto pitch... with a CSP.. constant speed prop. All changing pitch does is change the rpm. Now you CAN squeeze a bit more out of your plane with tweaking of thye RPMs (prop pitch) and manifold pressure (throttle) .. but to get an idea of a manual vs auto prop pitch go to the 109s. I highly recommend that when in any plane and fiddling with pitch keep looking at the hud display for the PP & throttle settings. As soon as I get to the point where I have it down to a science as far as what MP & RPM settings equal what throttle & PP settings on each plane I fly I will turn off the hudlog and just use my gauges. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Maybe you could expand on that and explain some. The in game P51 has only manual PP. It is at 100% all the time unless you manually change it yourself, unlike some of the spits and all of the 109's and 190's.

heywooood
07-15-2007, 09:12 PM
don't say I didn't warn you 'cause I did, BC


constant speed prop auto adjusts prop pitch so that no matter the throttle setting, the prop can't exceed max RPM's and should be maintained in the optimum pitch automatically by the auto pitch system...some systems were hydraulic and some were electric...and when they failed or were f'd with, you got a runaway prop, complete with explosive overrev, and a blown engine.

Because the P51 had this system - you leave prop pitch alone...at 100%

ElAurens
07-15-2007, 09:31 PM
NO, you use the prop control to adjust rpm and the throttle to set manifold pressure.

IRL it's more complicated than our game portrays it.

Matz0r
07-16-2007, 12:51 AM
Originally posted by Bearcat99:
Yeah that was @ 400 or so fopr the P-40. If I remember right the He-111 actually had a better roll rate than the first P-47. The one thing that always got me with the 50s was that the 50s on the P-40 just seemed to be easier to hit with. Even now I can still do better with the P-40 than any other plane as far as 6 50s go. I dont know why.

I've noticed this myself and come to the conclusion that a P-40 is much slower than a P-51 or P-47 and usually it's opponents too. Which means that you have lower closing speeds and more time to shoot accurately in convergence. Also, since the P-40 is a good turner you're more likely to throttle back and match your targets speeds before you fire.

WOLFMondo
07-16-2007, 03:36 AM
This is the most ******ed thread I've read in ages. Kettenhunde said the only sensible thing in 5 pages.

SeaFireLIV
07-16-2007, 03:53 AM
Originally posted by WOLFMondo:
This is the most ******ed thread I've read in ages. Kettenhunde said the only sensible thing in 5 pages.

Agreed, Wolfmondo. But no one wants to hear Kettenhunde because he`s right.

msalama
07-16-2007, 03:58 AM
This is the most ******ed thread I've read in ages.

In places, yes. And what's funny is that there're some participants here who:

1) Complain on some other boards how ******ed this place is, and
2) Then come here and s**t all over the place, thus making themselves sure that the Zoo stays true to its reputation.

Dunno if it's just me, but I sincerely fail to see the logic behind this behaviour http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

Brain32
07-16-2007, 03:59 AM
You need to take your meds or whatever it is you do to calm down man.... quick... Leave the boards for a few hours .. whatever... I am in no mood for the friggin drama OK.. so calm down... Keep repeating... "It's only a flight sim... It's only a flight sim..."
If you have a problem with me, by all means react, hel1, I have to read all the bullsh1t of some people posting opposite of what I did, time after time after time, yet nobody warns them, not that I'm suprised mind you http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif
In not so many words I'm not in the mood for anybody's BS including yours http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/winky.gif

WOLFMondo
07-16-2007, 04:19 AM
Originally posted by msalama:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">This is the most ******ed thread I've read in ages.

In places, yes. And what's funny is that there're some participants here who:

1) Complain on some other boards how ******ed this place is, and
2) Then come here and s**t all over the place, thus making themselves sure that the Zoo stays true to its reputation.

Dunno if it's just me, but I sincerely fail to see the logic behind this behaviour http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Thats because many threads are ******ed and fueled by the onwhine red vs blue bollocks but occasionally you can pick up some good nuggets of information on these boards and has plenty of members who do actually know what there talking about and are not clouded by the onwhine world.

While there is some hope or pretense that the development team of Il2 will read these boards, any person who flies IL2 and is a die hard fan (even if they are in denial like Brain http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif) will post here.

MrMojok
07-16-2007, 05:13 AM
Originally posted by BSS_Sniper:
Maybe you could expand on that and explain some. The in game P51 has only manual PP. It is at 100% all the time unless you manually change it yourself, unlike some of the spits and all of the 109's and 190's.

He means the CSP the game "models" kind of "auto" prop pitch setting in that you don't HAVE to change it for each situation. So it's not a true "auto" PP setting but it doesn't have to be messed with either. It stays at 100%, as you say. But it is not the same thing as leaving the PP in a 109 on manual at 100%. With the 109 on 100% you will fry it in no time. Doesn't happen on the P51.

You can effectivly cool the engine a bit better by constantly adjusting PP yourself. A lot of people do that. I don't.

joeap
07-16-2007, 12:53 PM
Originally posted by TheBandit_76:
Or, since you are so into my posting history, tell when I praised Oleg for getting the Mustang "right" and we can correspond that date to that times current version.

Understand?

So who is right you or Brain? I give up have fun and read Kettunhunde's post.

msalama
07-16-2007, 01:19 PM
So who is right you or Brain?

Neither, and even if they were they still wouldn't understand why. Which indeed is the way of this board http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Just too many folks with too many biases, that's all http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/mockface.gif

MrMojok
07-16-2007, 01:53 PM
Originally posted by TheBandit_76:
Or, since you are so into my posting history, tell when I praised Oleg for getting the Mustang "right" and we can correspond that date to that times current version.

Understand?

I don't know if the forum search engine can handle looking through all posts from the Bandit account, the HayateAce account, and Billy's account.

crazyivan1970
07-16-2007, 02:09 PM
http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/compsmash.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/351.gif

thefruitbat
07-16-2007, 02:17 PM
in amongst the "p51 won teh war"tm V "p51 is ghey"tm Something that i've been curious about for a while, has popped up, proppitch on the 51.

So how does it work? I assumed it was 100% unless u changed it, since you dont have to take it off 'auto', as say with the spit.

I actually use it alot on the '51, but i mainly use it to keep my engine cooler while i fast cruise (rads closed), but ramp it up to 100 in combat. Also, i have no track, but i am sure u accelerate quicker dropping it a little in shallow dives.

so, whats the deal? seems to be conficting opinions above?

cheers in advance,

fruitbat

BGs_Ricky
07-16-2007, 02:34 PM
As already said by others the '51, like in most of the plane in game, is equipped with a Constant Speed Propeller. By changing the "PP" in those plane you actually control the RPM and the CSP wil automatically adjust the PP for you. On the 109 set in manual you directly control the PP that's why you can easily fry your engine because there's nothing preventing you from overevving the engine if you're not careful.

thefruitbat
07-16-2007, 02:53 PM
Originally posted by BGs_Ricky:
As already said by others the '51, like in most of the plane in game, is equipped with a Constant Speed Propeller. By changing the "PP" in those plane you actually control the RPM and the CSP wil automatically adjust the PP for you. On the 109 set in manual you directly control the PP that's why you can easily fry your engine because there's nothing preventing you from overevving the engine if you're not careful.

ok, thats what i guessed. So whats a spit doing when it is set to auto?, is it varying it, or is it locked on 100%?

cheers fruitbat

p0wderfinger
07-16-2007, 07:00 PM
Originally posted by WOLFMondo:
This is the most ******ed thread I've read in ages. Kettenhunde said the only sensible thing in 5 pages.
Actually, this thread was meant to serve as a non-partisan request for advice, but unfortunately people have decided to litter it with useless posts for me to glance over, and that includes you. So if you have nothing useful to say, don't say it. Thanks to those of you bothered to write anything helpful.

heywooood
07-16-2007, 07:41 PM
hey man - its an old game that tries to emulate r/l stuff and falls short and gamey...

but as someone said 4 pages ago - its only a game, don't take it too seriously...sage advice ignored emphatically.

Zoom2136
07-17-2007, 09:35 AM
Originally posted by PF_Coastie:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Bearcat99:

AS for the wing snap... man I havent lost a wing in a P-51 in a while. I have been fast.. 500mph in a dive... the thing is you have to make gentle moves on the stick... I also use trim when iat high speeds as it tends to put less stress on the AC.

Now that is one thing I never use after initial adjustment "trim". For the high speed birds, I always nose trim down a bit because at high speed the nose really wants to come up and it takes a good bit of stick pressure to keep it down. But if you trim down to much, you will induce some nose wobble which makes it harder to stay on target. I like to trim nose down just enough so that at high speed I still have to put some stick pressure down.

I also have not snapped a wing in the P51 for a long time, BUT I can make it happen at will when at high speeds. It just seems you have to really Baby the P51 too much at high speeds. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

See... me its the opposite... I always trim nose down so I have to keep a bit of nose up pressure... different taste... I suppose http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

Zoom2136
07-17-2007, 02:45 PM
Originally posted by GH_Klingstroem:
Thats exactly what I talking about Ratsack!!! They fly nivcely but, all of them do BUT with point convergence its gonna be difficult to actually hit something. The 0.50 have alsmost NO spread so if ur target isnt EXACLTY on the pipper in ur gunsight, ALL of your bullets will miss! Not very realistic! It might have worked for a few people IRL but "box convergence" is what we need for the .50s as we have them in game (with almost invisible tracers)... We just need Olegs team to know before its too late!

ABSOLUTELY NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO

What we need for all planes is the ability to select either BOX or POINT convergence... not be stuck with on or the other....

Zoom2136
07-17-2007, 02:50 PM
Originally posted by p0wderfinger:
What's a guy gotta do to get some advice around here without inciting a flame war?

Well it's impossible... you will always get the same guys go at it... just start a new thread a see....

Zoom2136
07-17-2007, 03:04 PM
Originally posted by Viper2005_:
To be fair though Kettenhunde, IRL you only get one life.

Most of the online aces have died hundreds of times, and on their 1st life I'd bet that at least 97% of them didn't manage to score 5 kills...

YEP but real life pilot didn't just install the damm thing on their HD 15 minutes before taking to the sky... they went through something called "flight school" first where they lurned how to actually fly the thing... and lurned about other nifty stuff like gunnary (deflection shooting), combat manoeuvers, evasive manuvering...

But what is true here is that most guys claiming my fav plane is por.ked all want their fav ride to performed the way some ace or test pilot (wich were some of the very best pilots... you don't assign this task to the dumbest MF to graduate... this one you send to the front to get is a.s.s. killed) was able to push the d.a.m.m. thing...

So the average pilot was probably not able to push these planes at their rated limits... this could be due to improper (read not optimal) engine management, improper flight technique... etc...

GH_Klingstroem
07-17-2007, 03:08 PM
═m with you Zoom2136! What we really need is the ability to chose our selves how we want our convergency. I think the best would be something in between "POINT" and "BOX" That would be best for everyone. And thats EXACTLY the type of convergency the RAF planes (MGs) in this game have! And what a difference it does for hit %!!!!

3.JG51_BigBear
07-17-2007, 03:12 PM
Originally posted by p0wderfinger:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by WOLFMondo:
This is the most ******ed thread I've read in ages. Kettenhunde said the only sensible thing in 5 pages.
Actually, this thread was meant to serve as a non-partisan request for advice, but unfortunately people have decided to litter it with useless posts for me to glance over, and that includes you. So if you have nothing useful to say, don't say it. Thanks to those of you bothered to write anything helpful. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Here's my advice

Joystick setup
Pitch 55 55 55 55 55 57 63 72 83 95
Roll 50 50 50 50 50 53 61 70 85 100
Yaw 22 22 25 25 25 32 42 75 75 100 Filtering 1
I use Saitek sticks and these numbers work great fro me on the Mustang.

Set your convrgence close in and wait till your up their tail pipe to fire.

Fly through manuevers. Make sure you have plenty of energy if you're trying to pull off tight turns, immelmans, chandelles, etc.

If you decide to engage an enemy in a turn fight make sure you have a lot of energy going in and try not to stay with him for more than 3/4 of a revolution. Combat flaps were used historically to tighten turns for short periods but they were used sparingly because they ate energy like crazy, same applies in game.

Don't dive straight away from an attacker, especially something lighter like an A6M or a Ki-84. They will accelerate faster in a dive initially and they will catch you. Put your nose down, something like a 30 degree angle should do it, and firewall the engine. In a straight line like that you will walk away from anything.

The P-51 in game has a nasty high speed snap spin if you pull to hard in a turn. I personally feel its realistic but opinions vary on this particular point. My joystick settings help a lot with this one but the only way to avoid it is to practice with the plane and learn to anticipate it. Keeping out of turning fights is probably the best idea.

Stay fast, stay high, and see him before he sees you.

3.JG51_BigBear
07-17-2007, 03:15 PM
One more tidbit. With an excellent energy fighter like the P-51, stick to Yo-Yos whenever possible when an attacker makes a hard break. Always avoid trying to make that turn if you can.

Korolov1986
07-17-2007, 03:28 PM
Here's my advice:

Fly Fw-190A-4 for a few missions.

Then fly P-51.

I guarantee your ability to fly the P-51 will increase by at least a factor of 1.5!

horseback
07-17-2007, 06:12 PM
Actually, if you want to take the master's course in twitchy b*tch stall-avoidance, start with the P-39 in a full-real campaign.

After that, almost anything else is cake.

cheers

horseback

thefruitbat
07-17-2007, 06:19 PM
Originally posted by horseback:
Actually, if you want to take the master's course in twitchy b*tch stall-avoidance, start with the P-39 in a full-real campaign.

After that, almost anything else is cake.

cheers

horseback

Off all the things i have read on these boards, in the last few months, this is the killer fact...

this is an il2 truth!

cheers fruitbat

BSS_Sniper
07-17-2007, 06:24 PM
Originally posted by MrMojok:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by BSS_Sniper:
Maybe you could expand on that and explain some. The in game P51 has only manual PP. It is at 100% all the time unless you manually change it yourself, unlike some of the spits and all of the 109's and 190's.

He means the CSP the game "models" kind of "auto" prop pitch setting in that you don't HAVE to change it for each situation. So it's not a true "auto" PP setting but it doesn't have to be messed with either. It stays at 100%, as you say. But it is not the same thing as leaving the PP in a 109 on manual at 100%. With the 109 on 100% you will fry it in no time. Doesn't happen on the P51.

You can effectivly cool the engine a bit better by constantly adjusting PP yourself. A lot of people do that. I don't. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Thanks for the clarification, although I'm still a bit confused. lol I fly a complex piston and turbine on a daily basis and I come in here and get perplexed by trying to compare this to RL. lol Thanks again.

p0wderfinger
08-04-2007, 04:10 AM
Thanks for those who posted help. I think my biggest concern was with the CEM. I always feel like I'm not getting the most out of the engine because I'm not sure what settings to use. For example in a zoom climb after a gun pass, do I set the pitch back to 100% right away, or do I let it stay at 80% for a bit and slowly bring it up as speed drops (as to avoid creating unnecessary drag when the plane is still travelling fast from momentum).

Tactics and maneuvering wise, I'm pretty decent, as my favourite rides in WBs were the Fw190, Bf109, and the P51 so I'm no stranger to energy tactics. But I find whenever I pull for a deflection shot in a P51, even if it's for 30-45 degrees, I'm bleeding E like a stuck pig, and if he isn't dead after the pass (which is highly likely since I find the 50cals hard to use with the invisible tracers and convergence as someone already pointed out), I have no choice but to extend and disengage as the enemy is likely to be in something that will catch me if I try a zoom climb. So my question to those of you BnZers is what do you usually do when you dive onto a Spit/Ki84/La7 etc. and he enters into a dive of his own in an attempt to even out the energy states before performing his defensive maneuver? Do you ride it high, dive with him, or zoom back to alt and simply pick another patsy?

And then there's the problem I have with the game's absolutely terrible dot visibility, which is another issue on its own.

Sturm_Williger
08-04-2007, 05:50 AM
P0wderfinger, there's some good advice and info in this thread, too bad you have to trawl through it with a fine-toothed comb to extract it, but that's the nature of this place. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

I personally can't help you with advice as to avoid bleeding E, 'cos it's something I still do ( especially after not flying for 6 months ) - I'm the guy that gets killed by the enemy I bounce - I miss the shot, then I'm meat http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/35.gif

I suggest you start a new thread on the BnZ/E retention issue as the first page of a thread often garners the best info before it degenerates... ( on top of being more visible and maybe attracting the attention of good pilots who wouldn't bother to look at this one, knowing how it will end up http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif )

I also recommend watching some tracks of good pilots doing their thing - the Warclouds site has a section for track downloads and I daresay other sites do too.

Good luck and when you know your Pony inside-out... you'll be deadly.

danjama
08-04-2007, 06:18 AM
Originally posted by Sturm_Williger:
I'm the guy that gets killed by the enemy I bounce - I miss the shot, then I'm meat http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/35.gif



Hey im that guy too, what would happen if we met in a duel http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/crackwhip.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/35.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/blink.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/touche.gif

Sturm_Williger
08-04-2007, 06:29 AM
Originally posted by danjama:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Sturm_Williger:
I'm the guy that gets killed by the enemy I bounce - I miss the shot, then I'm meat http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/35.gif



Hey im that guy too, what would happen if we met in a duel http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/crackwhip.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/35.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/blink.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/touche.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

One or both of us would run out of fuel http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/34.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/88.gif

danjama
08-04-2007, 06:45 AM
Originally posted by Sturm_Williger:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by danjama:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Sturm_Williger:
I'm the guy that gets killed by the enemy I bounce - I miss the shot, then I'm meat http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/35.gif



Hey im that guy too, what would happen if we met in a duel http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/crackwhip.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/35.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/blink.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/touche.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

One or both of us would run out of fuel http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/34.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/88.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

or hit the ground http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/crackwhip.gif

VW-IceFire
08-04-2007, 07:02 AM
Originally posted by BSS_Sniper:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by MrMojok:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by BSS_Sniper:
Maybe you could expand on that and explain some. The in game P51 has only manual PP. It is at 100% all the time unless you manually change it yourself, unlike some of the spits and all of the 109's and 190's.

He means the CSP the game "models" kind of "auto" prop pitch setting in that you don't HAVE to change it for each situation. So it's not a true "auto" PP setting but it doesn't have to be messed with either. It stays at 100%, as you say. But it is not the same thing as leaving the PP in a 109 on manual at 100%. With the 109 on 100% you will fry it in no time. Doesn't happen on the P51.

You can effectivly cool the engine a bit better by constantly adjusting PP yourself. A lot of people do that. I don't. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Thanks for the clarification, although I'm still a bit confused. lol I fly a complex piston and turbine on a daily basis and I come in here and get perplexed by trying to compare this to RL. lol Thanks again. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Ultimately its the following:

FW190/Bf109 (in particular the 109) = prop pitch directly controls the prop pitch
All other types including the P-51 = CSP system means that "prop pitch" in game controls the RPM and the CSP system manages the actual blade angles

Clearer?

As far as combat is concerned 100% pitch in the Mustang and other types is the best solution as you're getting the most power out of the engine. Some use lower settings for dives and certain moves because evidently its less prop resistance and therefore better speed. I'm not completely convinced of this but you can experiment if you want. It won't make a massive difference although controlling the RPM does mean that you can keep the engine cooler.

So with the Tempest the trick we've learned is to use the pitch controls to bring the engine back to 80% or 70% when using boost as this keeps the engine on a high boost setting but lower heat. Then we tend to spike the engine to 90% or 95% to get that little extra boost of power when its needed.

ElAurens
08-04-2007, 09:02 AM
Originally posted by p0wderfinger:
what do you usually do when you dive onto a Spit/Ki84/La7 etc.

Last time I looked the Spit and La7 were Allied aircraft, so meeting them in combat should never happen.

The Ki84 is a tough nut to crack for any Allied aircraft if the Hayate pilot is competent. My only advice would be never go down low agianst a Ki84, and aim for his wing roots.

Bearcat99
08-04-2007, 09:32 AM
Originally posted by p0wderfinger:
I always feel like I'm not getting the most out of the engine because I'm not sure what settings to use. For example in a zoom climb after a gun pass, do I set the pitch back to 100% right away, or do I let it stay at 80% for a bit and slowly bring it up as speed drops (as to avoid creating unnecessary drag when the plane is still travelling fast from momentum).

Tactics and maneuvering wise, I'm pretty decent, as my favourite rides in WBs were the Fw190, Bf109, and the P51 so I'm no stranger to energy tactics. But I find whenever I pull for a deflection shot in a P51, even if it's for 30-45 degrees, I'm bleeding E like a stuck pig, and if he isn't dead after the pass (which is highly likely since I find the 50cals hard to use with the invisible tracers and convergence as someone already pointed out), I have no choice but to extend and disengage as the enemy is likely to be in something that will catch me if I try a zoom climb. So my question to those of you BnZers is what do you usually do when you dive onto a Spit/Ki84/La7 etc. and he enters into a dive of his own in an attempt to even out the energy states before performing his defensive maneuver? Do you ride it high, dive with him, or zoom back to alt and simply pick another patsy?

And then there's the problem I have with the game's absolutely terrible dot visibility, which is another issue on its own.

The E bleed is one of the issues I have with the P-51 too.. I still think it bleeds E a bit too fast... I am getting better at holding it though. I like the fact that up until now at least for better or worse you had to learn how to fly your plane.

Friendly_flyer
08-04-2007, 03:16 PM
Originally posted by horseback:
Actually, if you want to take the master's course in twitchy b*tch stall-avoidance, start with the P-39 in a full-real campaign.

After that, almost anything else is cake.


Amen to that!

The P-51 is not the easiest plane to be an instant ace in. While the basics of flying it is fairly straight forward (speed-speed-speed, and don't turn), the guns are just barely adequate for shooting fighters. Most of us are going to just see some bits fly off, which is what happened in real life as well (all those enemy planes claimed as "damaged"). With my lousy shooting, I much prefer cannon armed planes: When speed is important, I'll take the Mustang Mk. III.

3.JG51_BigBear
08-04-2007, 03:28 PM
My personal opinion is that the Mustang is one of the very best fighters in the game and a lot of issues that players have with it is due to their individual stick setups. After I changed mine I feel like I can do no wrong in the Mustang. Its really great if you manage energy well and let the plane "fly through" the manuevers.

Also, I think the main problem people have with the .50s is that the tracers are small and when the bullets are impacting the target you don't get some great exploding effect like with the 20MM rounds. Whithout either of those its much harder to aim. In my opinion the guns themselves are very effective. They definitely don't have the destructive effect of medium cannons but I think their capabilities are reasonably modelled in game.

Ratsack
08-04-2007, 04:18 PM
http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/agreepost.gif

I wish they could give the 0.50s smoke and tracer effects the same as those for the 0.50s in that Italian biplane. I know the argument about frame rates, but couldn't they just do it for one gun in each wing?

I love flying the thing, but I can only get kills in it when the other guy is asleep.

cheers,
Ratsack

p0wderfinger
08-06-2007, 09:49 PM
Originally posted by ElAurens:
Last time I looked the Spit and La7 were Allied aircraft, so meeting them in combat should never happen.

The Ki84 is a tough nut to crack for any Allied aircraft if the Hayate pilot is competent. My only advice would be never go down low agianst a Ki84, and aim for his wing roots.
I meant to pose the question towards any BnZ fliers since those high thrust/weight ratioed late war beasts are often the toughest opponents. But also in some servers you can fly allied/axis versus other allied/axis.

Originally posted by Bearcat99:
The E bleed is one of the issues I have with the P-51 too.. I still think it bleeds E a bit too fast... I am getting better at holding it though. I like the fact that up until now at least for better or worse you had to learn how to fly your plane.
Co-E, against zeroes and other speed disadvantaged tnb crates, my tactic in other sims is to make very gentle eaving turns while they chase me to bleed their E while I retain mine, and then enter into a very shallow climb at high speed until I reach a point where they are able to match my speed by staying level, but I am gaining E from my shallow climb. Then when I think I've gained enough of an advantage, I'll enter a zoom transitioning to a hammerhead, or a spiral climb. Problem is the zeroes here seem either too fast, or my BnZ rides too slow and my speed advantage is enough only to disengage, but not come over the top for another pass. Then again, maybe I'm doing something wrong with engine management.

M_Gunz
08-06-2007, 10:24 PM
More like energy management. In sims past I would follow a target along a lesser energy path
than he was using just by hanging back a bit and flying inside his path. That's why I practice
mid to long range deflection gunnery.
All of that works in IL2 series but the piloting and gunnery are more difficult, more complete.
Older games, it's easy to make full performance where in IL2 series it is not. I think that
the difference is in the degree of realism.