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View Full Version : New LCD = BIG performance jump.



Ernst_Rohr
05-14-2007, 09:18 AM
I just recently upgraded my trusty old Samsung 19" LCD with a new Samsung 22" 226BW widescreen, on BOY what a difference!

I picked up a nice boost in FPS and that 22" widescreen give a hell of a view! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Seems that the biggest boost came via the way the n newer screen switches colors (measured in GTG) and going from a 8ms draw time to a 2ms draw time.

I didnt thing it would make a big difference, but boy did it ever! I picked up about 20fps, and man does that make a difference, especially in my gunnery! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

If your looking to replace your old LCD, I can really recommend the Samsung, its been a great upgrade.

The LCD;
Samsung 226BW
3000:1 Contrast ratio (thats not a typo)
1680x1050 resolution
2ms response time
16:10 Aspect ratio
DVI and Analog cables come with the monitor
Fully Vista compatible (HDCP compliant)
and best of all;
$349 http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Superluminal_8
05-14-2007, 09:31 AM
I have a Syncmaster 940BF (Bayerische Flugzeugwerke? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif)with 2ms.It´s good but that RTA chipset create some strange ghosting for me so I turn it off.

Ernst_Rohr
05-14-2007, 10:40 AM
I havent noticed any ghosting after I played with the video card settings. My old LCD was having some issues with reflections and the newer Nvida drivers, after the change, it looks great.

I do notice that is a lot easier to track planes on the 22" compared to the 19" though. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

omega_max
05-14-2007, 10:49 AM
Originally posted by Ernst_Rohr:
I havent noticed any ghosting after I played with the video card settings.


May I ask what settings? I've got the 226BW recently also and like it alot except for some strange ghosting of other a/c against a bright background e.g. the sky.

Regards

omega_max (on HL as Stoff)

DooDaH2007
05-14-2007, 03:18 PM
Originally posted by Ernst_Rohr:
I just recently upgraded my trusty old Samsung 19" LCD with a new Samsung 22" 226BW widescreen, on BOY what a difference!

I picked up a nice boost in FPS and that 22" widescreen give a hell of a view! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Seems that the biggest boost came via the way the n newer screen switches colors (measured in GTG) and going from a 8ms draw time to a 2ms draw time.

I didnt thing it would make a big difference, but boy did it ever! I picked up about 20fps, and man does that make a difference, especially in my gunnery! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

If your looking to replace your old LCD, I can really recommend the Samsung, its been a great upgrade.

The LCD;
Samsung 226BW
3000:1 Contrast ratio (thats not a typo)
1680x1050 resolution
2ms response time
16:10 Aspect ratio
DVI and Analog cables come with the monitor
Fully Vista compatible (HDCP compliant)
and best of all;
$349 http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

A monitor does not effect FPS...
Another setting must have changed...

Ernst_Rohr
05-14-2007, 03:26 PM
Originally posted by DooDaH2007:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Ernst_Rohr:
I just recently upgraded my trusty old Samsung 19" LCD with a new Samsung 22" 226BW widescreen, on BOY what a difference!

I picked up a nice boost in FPS and that 22" widescreen give a hell of a view! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Seems that the biggest boost came via the way the n newer screen switches colors (measured in GTG) and going from a 8ms draw time to a 2ms draw time.

I didnt thing it would make a big difference, but boy did it ever! I picked up about 20fps, and man does that make a difference, especially in my gunnery! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

If your looking to replace your old LCD, I can really recommend the Samsung, its been a great upgrade.

The LCD;
Samsung 226BW
3000:1 Contrast ratio (thats not a typo)
1680x1050 resolution
2ms response time
16:10 Aspect ratio
DVI and Analog cables come with the monitor
Fully Vista compatible (HDCP compliant)
and best of all;
$349 http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

A monitor does not effect FPS...
Another setting must have changed... </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yep, thats what I thought as well, but I tested it, and I am getting better frames all the same. With the SAME settings on both monitors. I dont know what the difference could be, but it is there.

Ernst_Rohr
05-14-2007, 03:27 PM
Originally posted by omega_max:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Ernst_Rohr:
I havent noticed any ghosting after I played with the video card settings.


May I ask what settings? I've got the 226BW recently also and like it alot except for some strange ghosting of other a/c against a bright background e.g. the sky.

Regards

omega_max (on HL as Stoff) </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I got a bit of that after I first plugged it in, whats your AA set for? Also, check your Vsync and stencil buffer settings. The monitor is so fast, you can turn off Vsync with no problems, helps your FPS as well.

crazyivan1970
05-14-2007, 03:33 PM
What do you mean monitor is so fast... what`s the refresh rate on it? Just curios.

Ernst_Rohr
05-14-2007, 03:38 PM
Originally posted by crazyivan1970:
What do you mean monitor is so fast... what`s the refresh rate on it? Just curios.

The response time is 2 miliseconds. The old one was 8ms, doesnt sound like a big deal, or that it should even be noticible, but it sure feels like it does. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

FM_Golden_Eagle
05-14-2007, 03:41 PM
I am using a Samsung Syncmaster 244T (6msec) and play in 1920X1200 (native resolution).
I switched from an "old" Sony 21" CRT working in 1600X1200 at 100HZ.
Image color quality/contrast got a boost. Regarding framerate I saw no difference with the CRT.

I am a little bit astonished that an LCD screen could have such an impact on framerate. On image quality for sure but on framerate. A 20 FPS difference is a very big improvement.
Are you sure you just changed the screen and nothing else. Please give some more information on your system.

I have the feeling that there is some confusion here between response time and frame refresh time.

The response time from 8ms to 2msec will improve the clarity with which you will see moving objects on the screen that is without trailing.

All the LCD work at least at 60 HZ whatever the response time. By the way 60HZ is 16msec between frames. If you have 70 HZ (some LCD can do it) then you have 14msec between frames. And 100HZ is 10 msec between frames.

The 8msec or 2msec response time you mention is the time needed for the liquid crystals to switch between two different states (it is more complicated but we will keep it simple). So this timing measures in simple words the change time of the LCD screen when clearing the screen and redrawing a new image. Higher times mean that you will have have a visible mix between the new and old image thus the trailing effect. If this time would be perfect let's say 0 then you would have two absolute perfectly distinct pictures. When the new picture is being drawn it is done on a perfectly clear screen, the old one has instantaneously disappeared.

Let's now see what happens with slow and fast moving objects for a given graphic system performance.

If you have a slowly moving object across the screen it means the distance travelled between two frames will be very small. The trailing effect will be less visible as the two images of the same object will be very little apart. In this case you can afford to have 8msec or more. People working on still photos do not bother to have 16msec or even 21msec as they work on still pictures but they will want to have perfect image and color quality. In this case your Graphic system does not need to be very performant because you would produce a lot of intermediate frames that would be invisible to you.

If now you have a fast moving object like an airplane zooming past then the distance the object will move between the frames will be large and visible if the response time is low.
You will see the object leaving a ghostly trace on the screen behind him.

Now here comes into play the graphic performance of your system. Let's suppose that you have zero response time (perfect) and a not very performant system for exmple 12 FPS at a certain stage in the game. You will see the plane zooming as a sequence of images which will be very clear and crisp but also very distinct in space. It will be a stuttering image, The object will make jumps between different positions. If your system can generate 60 or more frames then you will diminish the distance separating the object in space and the motion will seem more continuous but still each image of the object will be distinct. The motion will lack fluidity. At a very high framerate (150-200) you may render this effect not noticeable any more but all this power will be for bad use because your eyes will not be able to se crisply such a fast moving abject across a big screen and the image will be blurred any way.

In the real world things are continuous and not digital so when looking at fast moving objects with our eyes comes into play an effect called motion blur which is the reason why we see always continuous motions. The faster the objects move and the less focused or the more blurred we see. This is why in computer generated images for animation the motion blur effect is calculated and applied artificially onto the moving objects to get amore realistic and natural effect.

In conclusion a small response time is not bad if your computer has low performance, but then maybe to play flight simulation games is not the best solution. If you take a screen with very little response time for flight simulation then you must also have a powerful system. To me going under a real 4-6msec (advertised values and real values differ a lot) does not bring much. It is a better investment to buy a more peformant graphic card that can generate higher FPS.

Gold



Here is my core system:
CPU: Intel Quad Extreme QX6700 cooled with a Zalmann CPD 9700 in pure copper.
Mainboard: Asus Commando
Ram: 4GB DDR2 PC8500
Graphic Card: ASUS 8800 GTX and a good power supply with 850 Watts.

VW-IceFire
05-14-2007, 04:23 PM
Originally posted by Ernst_Rohr:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by crazyivan1970:
What do you mean monitor is so fast... what`s the refresh rate on it? Just curios.

The response time is 2 miliseconds. The old one was 8ms, doesnt sound like a big deal, or that it should even be noticible, but it sure feels like it does. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Response time does not equal refresh rate. Related but not the same. Response time is how quickly the monitor can switch from one color to another. Typically this is done from "grey to grey"...some others will do "black to white". Usually a 2ms monitor is actually 8ms http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Marketing eh?

As for FPS...no possible way for a monitor to give you extra FPS. Software settings can...such as VSYNC...would.

Ernst_Rohr
05-14-2007, 05:01 PM
I had to wait till I got home to tinker with this, but I found the culprit.

Vsynch

The profile for the old 19" has Vsynch set to on, the new 22" is off. I never even thought to look. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/35.gif

So, now that I look stupid... its still a heck of a nice LCD. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

BaldieJr
05-14-2007, 05:03 PM
Using DVI eh?

Davinci..
05-14-2007, 05:19 PM
Originally posted by VW-IceFire:
As for FPS...no possible way for a monitor to give you extra FPS. Software settings can...such as VSYNC...would.

yeah thats probably it! a monitor itself cannot increas frame rate.. But its possible the newer(better) monitor is running at a higher refresh rate and vsync is on, which would give you a higher fps as a result.

VMF-214_HaVoK
05-14-2007, 07:26 PM
A monitor does not effect FPS...
Another setting must have changed...

Your wrong. It certainly does.

VMF-214_HaVoK
05-14-2007, 07:28 PM
But its possible the newer(better) monitor is running at a higher refresh rate and vsync is on, which would give you a higher fps as a result.

Bingo! This the main reason CRTs offer better FPS. So yes changing a monitor can effect your FPS.

Bearcat99
05-14-2007, 07:50 PM
Thats good to know.. I was looking at that monitor.. I decided to hold off till I could get a 24".

BaldieJr
05-14-2007, 08:49 PM
C'mon you tightwad you can't afford that lcd tell the truth. Everyone says their waiting for the new model when they're just broke cause taxes or $4/gal gas.

Ernst_Rohr
05-14-2007, 09:04 PM
I rationalized the monitor as something to prevent me from spending cash on an computer upgrade. I am trying to hold off until the fall, when AMD kicks out there quad core, and the resulting price wars between them and intel drop the CPU prices down to the reasonable range. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Ernst_Rohr
05-14-2007, 09:06 PM
Originally posted by Bearcat99:
Thats good to know.. I was looking at that monitor.. I decided to hold off till I could get a 24".

I looked at that as well. TBH, I cant see justifiying a hundred plus on top of this for a 24" (as much as I would like too). So I settled for this one.

Actually, I would REALLY like to get my hands on the 30" monitor I saw, but sort of a new job making stupid money, thats not going to happen. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

VMF-214_HaVoK
05-14-2007, 10:32 PM
Got a Samsung 20" Widescreen and I will never go back to those squares again! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif I only wish I got the monster you got! And it only would have cost me 50 or so dollars more. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/35.gif It has been quite a few months though.

FM_Golden_Eagle
05-15-2007, 03:03 AM
Here is my proposal HaVok.

Stop drinking all those expensive whiskies and smoking the havana cigars and any other vice you may have. Put the money regularly in a small piglet on your table and in a very short time Bingo! your dream will come true. You will be able to buy yourself the 30" latest Samsung widescreen.

But if you do not like to live like a monk for some time then you can always buy a lottery ticket.

Gold

Capt.LoneRanger
05-15-2007, 03:57 AM
A higher refreshrate does not increase your FPS. The signal is just transmitted more often to the monitor, but what is transmitted is of course still up to your computer.

Changing from a Monitor to another CAN affect your FPS, though. If you use a resolution of 1280x1024 or any custom resolution, there is a fraction of the screen above and below the usual restrains, where fog and other details are not rendered correctly. If you have even enabled "save aspect" and see a black line above and below the output in IL2, this will dramatically drop your FPS, especially when you have a plane with mirrors (even if they are off).

The shadowing of dark objects against bright skies is the main problem with TFT. Sure, they made a big jump in response times, 2 years ago, but that was not solely due to a technological advance. The manufacturers agreed to another method of calculations.

Before this, the time was measured from reaching black from full white, to full black, or at least 95% of it. Now, this has been changed to 80%. That means a single pixel needs 2ms to change from 80% white to 80% black and back again. In other words: Cheaper monitors need a LOT longer to reach full black or full white.

I have a 19" 930BF and a 17"benQ myself and this shadowing is with every setting, no matter what you change, DVI or VGA. You also got to know, that a TFT is still only able to show 16Mio colors, while any CRT can show 32Mio colors. What does this matter, you might ask, but this lack of colors make a lot more crispy pictures, even when you don't like it, you'll always see stepping and you'll always see artifacts if you have slight color variations.

F19_Orheim
05-15-2007, 04:07 AM
is it possible that the widescreen format can be the reason. I mean, the widescreen "cuts" a lot of the image info both up and down of the screen right? This means that a smaller area is rendered in comparison to the 4:3 monitor?

Capt.LoneRanger
05-15-2007, 04:28 AM
Originally posted by F19_Orheim:
is it possible that the widescreen format can be the reason. I mean, the widescreen "cuts" a lot of the image info both up and down of the screen right? This means that a smaller area is rendered in comparison to the 4:3 monitor?

Of course it does.

As I said, 1280x1024 is a vertically longer format, so you have to render additional scenes.
With any wide-screen, the side boundaries are kept, while you have shorter vertical area, that is rendered. While the pixels may be even more, the rendered view (at least in IL2) is noteably smaller.

You can see the opposite effect when turning your monitor and view by 90?. If you run the game in 1024x1280, for example, the sides are still the same, but you have a very much longer vertical range than the usual view. That costs you 10-25fps, but you see a lot more.

Ooops - did I tell a secret? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/blush.gif

gdfo
05-15-2007, 05:15 AM
So, a wide screen LCD cannot display the entire image of the game.

Is that correct? It cuts the image because the native resolution is not the same as the games. Correct?

Tiger27
05-15-2007, 05:27 AM
Just picked up the 226bw last weekend and it is very nice, but I am seeing the odd ghosting of planes against bright backgrounds as well, might try turning off RTA to see if it makes a difference, could be that I havent correctly set the gamma etc as well I suppose.

TgD Thunderbolt56
05-15-2007, 06:07 AM
Originally posted by gdfo:
So, a wide screen LCD cannot display the entire image of the game.

Is that correct? It cuts the image because the native resolution is not the same as the games. Correct?

Correct. IL2 doesn't natively support wide screen resolutions, but the loss at the top and bottom are easily overcome with TIR and the larger resulting image is a nice trade-off.


TB

Sun_Ra
05-15-2007, 06:49 AM
One extra question on this. What exactly does HDCP compliant mean? Does it allow one to watch high definition movies? I get acronym overload when shopping for new hardware.

Ernst_Rohr
05-15-2007, 08:01 AM
HDCP is a new cert, basically it means that the monitor is on the "compliant" list for Vista and HD content.

If you try and play HD content in Vista with a non-compliant monitor, it will either run in a degraded non-HD mode, or it wont run at all.