PDA

View Full Version : An idea to end all the whines.....



Tvrdi
08-10-2005, 06:13 AM
proposal...lets challenge all the whiners to fly in planes for which they claim that they are overmodeled vs a plane (in hands of a IL2 veteran) for which they claim theyr undermodelled/porked...that would shut their mouths forever after their certain defeat in 90% of the cases/dogs...

MEGILE
08-10-2005, 06:19 AM
I say La-7 is undermodelled!!!!!!!!

Force me to fly it in a dogfight.. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/51.gif

Tvrdi
08-10-2005, 06:44 AM
Megile...we all know who are those ppl-one side whiners and for which planes they whine....we cant force them to fly "their overmodelled" plane, but then - they must shut up....if they are honest in their statements let them fly hehe...bigtalkers....one of them already answered and from his answer we can see how many truth is in their statements...or "tests"

it was better before, without them here...but then we were "the few" compared to the other gaming communities...now we are bigger community with lots of t****...

MEGILE
08-10-2005, 06:48 AM
Better before?

The pilots lounge was a heap of $hit.

VW-IceFire
08-10-2005, 07:02 AM
As good an idea as it is...these people will say anything, even if they lost, to prove whatever it is that they believe. They made their minds up a long time ago and they aren't willing to go back on what they said - the embarrasment would kill them.

tHeBaLrOgRoCkS
08-10-2005, 07:05 AM
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v323/tHeBaLrOgRoCkS/22-beast.jpg

SeaFireLIV
08-10-2005, 07:23 AM
Originally posted by VW-IceFire:
As good an idea as it is...these people will say anything, even if they lost, to prove whatever it is that they believe. They made their minds up a long time ago and they aren't willing to go back on what they said - the embarrasment would kill them.

Extremely right. One thing I`ve discovered about a lot of whiners on the forum is they aren`t about being fair. It`s fine for them to whine that there favourite plane is porked or their hated plane is Uber, but they`d never say their favourite plane is too good or their hated plane is not good enough!

Although there ARE rare exceptions.

Pirschjaeger
08-10-2005, 08:08 AM
Originally posted by SeaFireLIV:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by VW-IceFire:
As good an idea as it is...these people will say anything, even if they lost, to prove whatever it is that they believe. They made their minds up a long time ago and they aren't willing to go back on what they said - the embarrasment would kill them.

Extremely right. One thing I`ve discovered about a lot of whiners on the forum is they aren`t about being fair. It`s fine for them to whine that there favourite plane is porked or their hated plane is Uber, but they`d never say their favourite plane is too good or their hated plane is not good enough!

Although there ARE rare exceptions. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I find the majority of whiners to be extremely unfair in many ways. For example, if you want to discuss something about the plane you fly, they are like termites, they aggressively bite their way into the thread, fill it full of holes, and take away any chance of having good thread, for those who are interested.

You mention the experience you've had with a certain plane and a whiner always pops up to correct you or accuse you of lying. Makes a lot of sense doesn't it. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

To say it straight, the f-ing whiners have done more to ruin this community than to make it interesting.

I'd say the worse comes from those whining about the "Luftwhiners". I'm still waiting for the luftwhiners to whine.

There, that's my whine. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-mad.gif

Fritz

Pirschjaeger
08-10-2005, 08:10 AM
BTW, for any of those who can read and write German, take a look at the German GD. You'll find a lot less whining in there. Is that linguistic or cultural?

Fritz

Ankanor
08-10-2005, 08:20 AM
well, I'm guessing here but the german whinig will still have to be proven in English before sent to the dev team. So, I suppose the English GD forum wraps it all into one http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif Still, I won't say end the whines. the forum will be much much much more boring place without them. Besides, whiners offer constant flow of laughter tot he forum members, which is good http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-tongue.gif

Pirschjaeger
08-10-2005, 08:29 AM
Originally posted by Ankanor:
Still, I won't say end the whines. the forum will be much much much more boring place without them. Besides, whiners offer constant flow of laughter tot he forum members, which is good http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-tongue.gif

Yes, to be fair, some of them are quite hilarious. Where is Hayata anyway? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

Fritz

Ankanor
08-10-2005, 08:41 AM
I suppose gone YAOIing http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-tongue.gif

SeaFireLIV
08-10-2005, 08:44 AM
Originally posted by Pirschjaeger:
I find the majority of whiners to be extremely unfair in many ways. For example, if you want to discuss something about the plane you fly, they are like termites, they aggressively bite their way into the thread, fill it full of holes, and take away any chance of having good thread, for those who are interested.



This is also another important point.

For example: A guy posts genuinely to complain that an aircraft in FB/PF is not accurate in its depiction in the game. He presents his points perfectly. Then we`ll get the goiks who`ll come along with no interest in accuracy or reality and just add a lot of rubbish. It`s very similar to a small naughty child muddying the clear waters so that in the end NO-ONE can tell what`s a good complaint or a bunch of childish whines.


A nasty tactic used often here.

NorrisMcWhirter
08-10-2005, 09:23 AM
Originally posted by Pirschjaeger:
BTW, for any of those who can read and write German, take a look at the German GD. You'll find a lot less whining in there. Is that linguistic or cultural?

Fritz

I strongly suspect the reason for that is precisely the same reason why there was far less whining seen on these forums before US planes were introduced. i.e. It's language

I'm sure even Oleg would agree with that - he's said as much in the past.

Ta,
Norris

lrrp22
08-10-2005, 11:19 AM
Originally posted by NorrisMcWhirter:

I strongly suspect the reason for that is precisely the same reason why there was far less whining seen on these forums before US planes were introduced. i.e. It's language

I'm sure even Oleg would agree with that - he's said as much in the past.

Ta,
Norris


By saying "It's language" you really means "It's the Americans", don't you Norris?

.

MEGILE
08-10-2005, 11:27 AM
Norris' axe is extremely blunt at the moment.. looks like he is in the process of grinding it.

Atomic_Marten
08-10-2005, 11:41 AM
Originally posted by lrrp22:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by NorrisMcWhirter:

I strongly suspect the reason for that is precisely the same reason why there was far less whining seen on these forums before US planes were introduced. i.e. It's language

I'm sure even Oleg would agree with that - he's said as much in the past.

Ta,
Norris


By saying "It's language" you really means "It's the Americans", don't you Norris?

. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I think he was quite clear on yank whiner issue there.

But if I may add my 2c - IMO no side of our biased part of community is entirely to blame for increased ammount of whining threads/posts. About shares of guilt... well... http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif

MEGILE
08-10-2005, 11:50 AM
Heyt lrrp22 could ya check your PTs plz? I have a quick question.

http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

geetarman
08-10-2005, 11:51 AM
Originally posted by SeaFireLIV:


Extremely right. One thing I`ve discovered about a lot of whiners on the forum is they aren`t about being fair. It`s fine for them to whine that there favourite plane is porked or their hated plane is Uber, but they`d never say their favourite plane is too good or their hated plane is not good enough!

Although there ARE rare exceptions.

Although I don't consider myself a whiner, there is a difference between being an advocate and not being able to accept facts. The true whiners are those who won't accept that certain planes need fixing, despite the overwhelming evidence to do so, and let everyone know why the facts are wrong.

One is not a whiner simply because they don't leap to the defense or take the lead in trying to change a plane they either don't like or could care less about. That's like a trial attorney arguing his opponent's case. There are plenty of fans of certain planes around to do that.

Pirschjaeger
08-10-2005, 11:52 AM
Originally posted by lrrp22:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by NorrisMcWhirter:

I strongly suspect the reason for that is precisely the same reason why there was far less whining seen on these forums before US planes were introduced. i.e. It's language

I'm sure even Oleg would agree with that - he's said as much in the past.

Ta,
Norris


By saying "It's language" you really means "It's the Americans", don't you Norris?

. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/10.gifAmericans aren't the only ones that speak English.

Fritz

LStarosta
08-10-2005, 11:58 AM
You got a point there, Fritz.

lrrp22
08-10-2005, 12:04 PM
Originally posted by Pirschjaeger:

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/10.gifAmericans aren't the only ones that speak English.

Fritz


Fritz,

If you know Norris's posting history, you'll know exactly what he means.

.

arcadeace
08-10-2005, 12:34 PM
A lot of folks wouldn€t enjoy this forum if it weren€t for whiners, period. Without naming names, some of you guys here, why bother involving yourselves? Like it€s a big deal, too important not to add your 2 cents? http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

And this thread, what a crock. Lol for some even this isn't about whining in general, just an excuse to whine about Americans whining. Lets pretend this one€s for a higher calling http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif Actually I€m disgusted with Americans whining too. Well not really disgusted, more amused, like watching Hollywood whine about the world€s injustices when they€ve got more goodies to know what to do. To be fair Luftwhiners are a pathetic lot too, especially pre- 4.01.

I don€t involve myself in the a/c whiner arguments because they are boring but I enjoy involving myself complaining about whining showing everyone how mature and above it I am. These threads aren€t€ easy to ignore, this forum needs identity and thank God we know that.

NorrisMcWhirter
08-10-2005, 12:40 PM
I know two things:

a. Whining has been worse since certain planes were introduced.
b. Oleg confirmed who whines the most.

He knows what comes into his inbox never mind what happens on here.

If you don't believe me...and I couldn't care less if you do or don't...take it from the man himself http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Ta,
Norris

PS: Of course, lots of people speak English - there's no doubt it's future as a 'world language'...but you don't see too many threads opened about Hurricanes or Blenheims now, do you? http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Pirschjaeger
08-10-2005, 12:44 PM
Originally posted by lrrp22:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Pirschjaeger:

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/10.gifAmericans aren't the only ones that speak English.

Fritz


Fritz,

If you know Norris's posting history, you'll know exactly what he means.

. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

By saying "US planes" he meant "Americans". I was just teasing you for not picking that up.http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

The thing is, how can we figure out who does the most whining in GD? Obviously, they will be English speakers, since this is an English forum. I think most will agree the majority of whiners are Allied plane fans(note my wording). This doesn't imply any particular nation, rather Allied or Axis preference.

Then we must consider how many are on each side. Recently I made a poll to see what percentage flew blue and what percentage flew red. It turned out that the highest percentage flew blue. To be honest, after seeing so many whine threads, I had expected the majority to be red flyers but I was wrong in my assumption.

With further thought and reading back threads, I found most of the whining came from the Allied side, just as my first assumption. The Axis side does whine from time to time but there is one major difference I noticed; consistancy. The Axis whiners usually whine about the same things. The Allied tend to whine about almost anything.

I also assumed that by creating the poll I would get votes from the majority of regular posters. Whiners are regular posters. The poll does not accurately represent all players of IL-2 but I think I can trust that I got all the whiners to vote along with many non-whiners. Unless I go back and read all the posts in GD, I think there is no accurate way to represent the majority of whiners.

Being an Allied whiner doesn't mean you are American. The same goes for the Axis whiner; doesn't mean you are German.

Honestly, I don't think there are that many whiners. The thing is the whiners post more often. You can even remember there names, proving there are not so many.

In summary, from my observations, I have two conclusions;

1) Allied whine the most

2) I spend too much time here.

Goodnight. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

Fritz

Atomic_Marten
08-10-2005, 12:49 PM
I agree with Fritz with only slight modification.

1) Allied whine the most lately
2) Me 2

No one remembers good old (pre 4.00 beta) MG151 days anymore. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-sad.gif

arcadeace
08-10-2005, 12:55 PM
Well I€ve always believed Oleg Norris. That€s one reason why I don€t care about whiners and all their reasons http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif Silly me I€ve been content from version 1.0. I've never seen the enlightenment in a/c threads, with too many folks its not about planes... if you know what I mean.

Pirschjaeger
08-10-2005, 01:08 PM
Originally posted by Atomic_Marten:
I agree with Fritz with only slight modification.

1) Allied whine the most lately
2) Me 2

No one remembers good old (pre 4.00 beta) MG151 days anymore. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-sad.gif

To be honest, I come and go. I post for a couple months before for finding something to occupy my brain. Then after as many or more months, I come back. I've miised a ot of time here that I wouldn't be able to follow the complaints at various stages. But I think what you said sounds logical. It's all about the patches.

Fritz

lrrp22
08-10-2005, 01:30 PM
Well Norris, considering the state of the P-47/P-38/.50's/exploding p-40 when introduced, it's not all that suprising that Oleg would hear from the fans of those planes, now is it?

The Fw 190 was similarly handicapped early on, and there was no shortage of posters (myself included) requesting improvements to that FM. I'm still utterly convinced that the 190's forward view is hosed.

There is a big difference between whines and valid requests for improvement, isn't there? Or is anything that requests something positive for anything American automatically relegated to the whine category? I can tell you that it wasn't whining that got the Mustang III included in 4.01.




Originally posted by NorrisMcWhirter:
I know two things:

a. Whining has been worse since certain planes were introduced.
b. Oleg confirmed who whines the most.

He knows what comes into his inbox never mind what happens on here.

If you don't believe me...and I couldn't care less if you do or don't...take it from the man himself http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Ta,
Norris

PS: Of course, lots of people speak English - there's no doubt it's future as a 'world language'...but you don't see too many threads opened about Hurricanes or Blenheims now, do you? http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

LeadSpitter_
08-10-2005, 01:41 PM
A FM forum to post all previous and current patch device link data plotted charts, and all the hundreds of dated sourced signed data charts with no questioning them just a place for all the information to be posted. Something similiar to ross_youss great il2compair but done by the maddox team themselves.

Let the moderators remove fake user created charts. But then again its ubi and would never happen here.

MEGILE
08-10-2005, 01:47 PM
Indeed LS.
Apparently Faustnik et. al have a Focke Wulf forum somewhere for their data.. but a general, Heavily moderated data forum would be excellent.

BigKahuna_GS
08-10-2005, 02:40 PM
S!
__________________________________________________ _________________________
NorrisMcWhirter Posted Wed August 10 2005 08:23
quote:I strongly suspect the reason for that is precisely the same reason why there was far less whining seen on these forums before US planes were introduced. i.e. It's language
I'm sure even Oleg would agree with that - he's said as much in the past.
__________________________________________________ _________________________



Strongly disagree with you Norris.

I have been here from the beginning when the only US A/C where the P39/P40. By far the biggest whining day in and day out was the Lufties claiming the German aircraft were undermodeled vs Russian aircraft. Threads about the 109/190 would go on and on for months at a time getting very heated with many insults aimed directly at Oleg. These personal attacks of Oleg being biased against luftwaffe aircraft lasted for years.
During this same time frame was attacks on the P39/P40 flight model. I would say the Lufties did a good job verbally abusing Oleg.

Currently the german plane set is the best in the sim and yet there are those Lufties clamering for more and more performance--mostly for the 109. These people want the most overmodeled plane in the sim (109) to be even more over modeled ! When will this end ?

This is from a 109 pilot Kwaitos:

For my Bf109 actually is userfriendly plane now. I call it now noobplane. Easy to fly, easy to aim. No accleration stall, too low stall speed for Bf 109 G and K series. Prop pitch cheat give 109 extra impossible boost, trim bug on elevator cause impossible turn rate at high speed, and still bf109 could turn like the hell at low speed (109 G2, A/S. G-14).
Now 109 is the same noobplanes lile LA5FN, La7 and Laggs66.

everything is here:

http://forums.ubi.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/23110283/m/6941040243
__


Now if you want to know why people are upset by US aircraft flight models read on:

1. Oleg's usage of foreign information to model US aircraft--that spells inacuracies and non-historical performance models for US aircraft in many respects. Oleg has also used information from damaged and restored US aircraft tests. To put things in perspective the ruskies rejected the P47 & P51, perfering of course the P39/63. The red pilots demonstrated a large dislike for the P47 and dubbed it "definetly not a fighter". That sentiment is accurately displayed in this flight sim. Why else would the P47 fly like a Hienkle He-111 when first introduced into FB ?

The actual P47 is amazingly agile for it's size, stable, fast, and has a very quick roll rate.

I have traded emails over this very subject with Oleg for 2 years now. Each group of pilots utilized the strengths of their particular A/C for the respective theater of operations they were fighting in.

The P39 was known as the "Iron Dog" in the PTO and for the most part disliked with huge requests for replacemnts with P38s. The P39 in the Eastern Front is loved by the russain pilots but then again rejected by the RAF & USAAF on the Western Front as not being able to "compete with the Luftwaffe". It all depended how the fighters flight parameters matched up to the altitudes and speeds of the theater of operations.

The P47 & P51 were obviously never needed on the Eastern Front as high altitude escorts, so how well could russain pilots know the capabilities and tactical fighting dictums of 8th AF pilots on the Western Front? How could russain pilots who flew at low altitudes over short distances ever know and utilize the strengths of the P47 & P51 ?

1. Flight models of US aircraft change from patch to patch many times with flight perfomance usually being reduced in several ways. See version 3.0 to now in P47/P51 dive performance/turn rates.

2. Historial strengths of dive speed acceleration and tough airframes are not present. P47/P51 do not out dive 109/190 as they did in version 3.0 which Oleg called "accurate". In PF the Corsair/Hellcat--especially the Hellcat do not out dive the Zero as they should.

3. Energy retention for large mass aircraft is not present. In fact e-bleed is excessive for the P51, P47, P38, F4U, Hellcat.

4. P38 was not known for compressing at mid to low altitudes--it is currently THE ONLY aircraft to suffer from compressibility in the sim. All high speed aircraft could and did enter into compressibilty with some unable to recover. Many US pilots saw 190s plow into the ground after long dives unable to recover from compressibility.

5. The best representations of US aircraft are not in this sim P47M, P47N, F4U-4 Corsair, P51H Mustang, F8F Bearcat. Also the P51D at 72"-80" MAP is not modeled when 150 octane Avgas was available in both the ETO/PTO by mid 44'. Some can argue whether the P51H or F8F should be here--but just look at the german plane set of never flown/litle action seen late warbirds.

6. Basically US aircraft have negative traits now that they did not have in real life--excessive yaw swing and nose pitch when manuevering and firing weapons. The P38, P47, P51 where all known as very stable gun platforms.

7. US aircraft have torque, the 109 has little if any and 190 torque is on the light side.

8. As an overall basic statement many see US aircraft as not having the historical strengths they were known to have being represented in this sim in both flight models and damage modeling. Then include bad charectoristics the aircraft never had of excessive yaw swing and nose pitch. Then add the best performing US aircraft being left out of the sim.
Then compare this to the blue aircraft and see if there is any sort of parity.

9. Questionable blackout/greyouts effects on Brit/US A/C vs German A/C. All aircraft supposedly have the same G limits. I should say I have also tried this in Spits also, on and off line testing against 109/190. I let my buddy get on my tail when he is flying a 109 and I was in a Spit. I pulled until I was graying out near the deck the whole time watching behind me. I figure if both planes are traveling at near the same speed that both pilots would feel/see the same effects. While I was near blackout maintaing my turn, my buddy in the 109 behind me was able to pull lead and fire. If I am near blackout at speeds near 220-200mph while turning how can a plane at reltively the same speed pull even more G's to aquire a firing solution without blacking out? We traded planes and I was able to do the samething. Something in the G modeling of blackout/greyout is not right here.


__

MEGILE
08-10-2005, 02:49 PM
In fact e-bleed is excessive for the P51, P47, P38, F4U, Hellcat.

Strongly disagree for P-38, and disagree for p-47.
The P-47 holds its speed extremly well, and the P-38 even better.


9. Questionable blackout/greyouts effects on Brit/US A/C vs German A/C. All aircraft supposedly have the same G limits. I should say I have also tried this in Spits also, on and off line testing against 109/190. I let my buddy get on my tail when he is flying a 109 and I was in a Spit. I pulled until I was graying out near the deck the whole time watching behind me. I figure if both planes are traveling at near the same speed that both pilots would feel/see the same effects. While I was near blackout maintaing my turn, my buddy in the 109 behind me was able to pull lead and fire. If I am near blackout at speeds near 220-200mph while turning how can a plane at reltively the same speed pull even more G's to aquire a firing solution without blacking out? We traded planes and I was able to do the samething. Something in the G modeling of blackout/greyout is not right here.

UDP data says, you are wrong.

faustnik
08-10-2005, 02:57 PM
Originally posted by Megile:
Indeed LS.
Apparently Faustnik et. al have a Focke Wulf forum somewhere for their data.. but a general, Heavily moderated data forum would be excellent.

I police the Focke Wulf Consortium pretty tightly. We don't have that many PF related threads though, mostly historical data and questions. Oleg has plenty of his own data for the Fw190 series, all he has ever requested from us were pictures.

I had recently invited Copperhead to post P-47 data and he had some great stuff, but, the old forum went down and we lost it. Historical data threads on other a/c are most welcome! We try to stay away from the anecdotal stuff, or at least combine it with data.

MEGILE
08-10-2005, 03:00 PM
Even Spitfire data? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-tongue.gif

faustnik
08-10-2005, 03:04 PM
Originally posted by Megile:
Even Spitfire data? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-tongue.gif

Definately! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif

MEGILE
08-10-2005, 03:07 PM
http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_cool.gif

LeadSpitter_
08-10-2005, 03:12 PM
609IAP_Kahuna

I have been here too since then, thats when oleg made the statement the 109g6 was his favorite aircraft in game and what he flies most if anyone remembers.

Even back then the 109 was almost equal to the p39 in low alt turn fights in sturmovik but was a tiny bit worse, but the 190 definatly was full of concrete back then. I wrote to oleg back then in sturmo and he told me about the p39s central gravity which made it a great turning ac but with difficult stall recovery, pretty much stuff I knew, he also told me to read a bunch of russian books with pilot accounts and gave me a list of 3 books which were written in russian so pretty useless to me.

He never did answer the turn rates with bat trim and flaps the p39 were able to achieve in sturmo which is what i was questioning to him back then.

also in fb early versions when the yak and la5 broke up at 650kmph and 109s elevator froze up historically accurate at 750kmph the russians complained and got changed just like now constant complaints of the 109 elevator getting some compressibility 700-800 and gets changed, even tho there was only one chart which was from a book of aluminum covered elevator and rudder tests on the g2 model which kurfust posted over 30 times the same tiny picture chart, in which the aircraft reached 850 in a max dive speed test and was only recovered by forward stick pressure and the pilot almost died missing the ground very closely, I have posted the report here in orr before but it just gets called propaganda blah blah even tho the reported is dated pilot names given german airfeild of test etc for kurfursts chart in which he did not post any info about. I'd say all sides whine equally i was one of the ones in sturmovik complaining about the 190a8 fm and it did change, to me it seems the the only change was to its ac weight as a half fix.

the thing i noticed with the 190a8 when it was improved the plane would bounce like a jumping bean off runway, this was in the early fb patchs the 47 also had the same problem as the 47.

The only reason i think only weight was changed as a so called fix was off runway the stuka p47 and 190 were some of the only ac that can stay on the ground across the whole map basically wheels down. once the 190 got lightened "i think only oleg can tell us" the 190 bounced about like the 109 offrunway and light aircraft.

Right now only the russian ac seem to have some elevator compressibility, the 109s had the same problem high speed combat and dives theres thousands of testing documents that prove this, the russian ac did also.

all aircraft had this problem some slightly better then other highspeeds but all experienced elevator compressibility highspeed, and lbs of stick pressure.

BigKahuna_GS
08-10-2005, 03:22 PM
S!



Megile
Posted Wed August 10 2005 13:49
quote:Strongly disagree for P-38, and disagree for p-47.
The P-47 holds its speed extremly well, and the P-38 even
__________________________________________________ _____________________________________________



Completely disagree with you Megile on the P47.

The closer to the deck the faster the E-bleed in speed and esceially in the vertical. I have flown this plane allot and one thing it does not de well is retain energy.

The P38--well it is just adequate in this area depending upon which model of P38 you are talking about.

The P38L-Late E-retention is good. P38J/L is not and all 3 aircraft do not have their respective climb rates as according to USAAF records and Tagert climb test with devicelink.


__

BigKahuna_GS
08-10-2005, 03:37 PM
S!



Megile-UDP data says, you are wrong


Megile, I sent information on 8th AF g-suit usage to Oleg over a year ago. This mechnical device gave about a 1-G advantge to Allied pilots over Luft pilots. A discussion over which held more merit was discussed; seat position vs G-suit. Oleg felt that seat position alone helped more than just G-suites. Medical research sides with the G-suit.

In the Korean war F-86 pilots consistently out-turned & pulled more G's wearing basically the same Chapp style G-suit developed in Canada during WW2. There is gun cam footage of Mig 15's wildly going out out control after the pilot blacked out.

Now I am very familar with this subject and that all planes in the sim have the same G-limit.

But I find it very interesting that many ex-military pilots with extensive flight time are saying the same thing that I posted here. Some of these guys are Top Gun graduates and they are saying that there is no way an aircraft should be able to pull lead for a firing solution without blacking out on an aircraft that is near blackout--if all planes have the same G-limits.

I think they have a valid point.


__

faustnik
08-10-2005, 03:40 PM
We used to run a scripted DF on Forgotten Server with PF 3.04 that had P-47D-27s against Fw190A8s. It was a very even match then, we will have to try it in 4.01 and see if there is a big difference.

BigKahuna_GS
08-10-2005, 03:48 PM
S!

I agree Lead. I would like to see all planes have their respective good and bad traits displayed. That's what develops tactics, the historical strengths and weaknesses of an aircraft's flight parameters.

The trouble is lobbying groups pushing so hard--even pushing when their aircraft is already the best performing plane in the sim.

The only defining factors now seem to be turn rate, climb rate and weapons power. All other values are given so little attention that they make little difference.


__

Atomic_Marten
08-10-2005, 03:52 PM
So when do we get G-suits? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

On a serious note, there is a way where you can pull a lead on a turning aircraft without blackout - you must be slower and reduce G. Therefore it is imperativ that both airplanes travell on exactly same speed and then start turning at exactly same speed and angle...

Now if one is blacking out at the same speed and angle of turn (therefore same G) and other is not that is incorrect.

Is that what we have in game now?

BigKahuna_GS
08-10-2005, 03:58 PM
S!



faustnik Posted Wed August 10 2005 14:40
We used to run a scripted DF on Forgotten Server with PF 3.04 that had P-47D-27s against Fw190A8s. It was a very even match then, we will have to try it in 4.01 and see if there is a big difference.


Hya Faustnik, you sure that wasn't version 3.0 ?

After 3.0 the dive speeds and turn rates were increased for both the 109/190 while the turn rates for both the P51/P47 were trimmed. There seems to be a problem with relaying information to Oleg on the difference between terminal dive speed and dive aceleration as both the 109/190 have the same if not better dive speed until terminal dive speed is reached.

If you fight with P47D-27 any where other than high altitude--it wont have a chance against the 190D-9.

The 190D-9 is superior in every catagory.


__

MEGILE
08-10-2005, 03:58 PM
Now if one is blacking out at the same speed and angle of turn (therefore same G) and other is not that is incorrect.

Is that what we have in game now?

No.
All planes blackout at the same G load.

If the chasing plane has not blacked out, it simply hasn't pulled sufficient Gs to blackout. Nothing magical going on there.... the planes are just not subject to the exact same factors.

BigKahuna_GS
08-10-2005, 04:07 PM
Megile
Posted Wed August 10 2005 14:58
No.
All planes blackout at the same G load.
if the chasing plane has not blacked out, it simply hasn't pulled sufficient Gs to blackout. Nothing magical going on there.


You are missing the point. If both planes are co-speed, co-alt and plane A can pull lead over plane B and shoot it down. When the plane B is chasing Plane A under the same conditions it cannot pull lead to shot--then there is a difference in G-load some how. Something is affecting g-load. Try it for yourself with a Spit and 109 under controlled speeds and turns. The 109 appears to be able to pull more G's. Not sure why.


__

faustnik
08-10-2005, 04:09 PM
Originally posted by 609IAP_Kahuna:
S!


<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">faustnik Posted Wed August 10 2005 14:40
We used to run a scripted DF on Forgotten Server with PF 3.04 that had P-47D-27s against Fw190A8s. It was a very even match then, we will have to try it in 4.01 and see if there is a big difference.


Hya Faustnik, you sure that wasn't version 3.0 ?

After 3.0 the dive speeds and turn rates were increased for both the 109/190 while the turn rates for both the P51/P47 were trimmed. There seems to be a problem with relaying information to Oleg on the difference between terminal dive speed and dive aceleration as both the 109/190 have the same if not better dive speed until terminal dive speed is reached.

If you fight with P47D-27 any where other than high altitude--it wont have a chance against the 190D-9.

The 190D-9 is superior in every catagory.


__ </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Kuhana,

The fight I referred to was P-47D-27s vs. Fw190A8s, and yes, it was 3.04. T

BigKahuna_GS
08-10-2005, 04:19 PM
S!




Faustnik-The fight I referred to was P-47D-27s vs. Fw190A8s, and yes, it was 3.04. T


Yeah rgr that, I saw they were 190a8 not D9 after I posted. The A8 was heavier and slower than D9 at least in the bomber attack version. The P47 bubble tops could compete with the 190D9's in real life but not in this sim.



__

faustnik
08-10-2005, 04:27 PM
The P47 bubble tops could compete with the 190D9's in real life but not in this sim.

I'm sure they could over 6K meters. Below that, a P-47 would have it's hands full with a veteran Dora pilot. Fortunatley, there weren't many veteran Dora pilots.

MEGILE
08-10-2005, 04:38 PM
Kahuna, the easiest way is to test with both pilots in the same plane... then you will see what is happening.
The chase plane may appear to be pulling more Gs, because it is pulling lead, but this does not make it so.

Again, the two planes are not subject to the EXACT same factors

There certainly is NO difference between the 109 in particular and allied planes in G blackout limit.

I will change my mind when Oleg says it is so.

Atomic_Marten
08-10-2005, 04:44 PM
Originally posted by 609IAP_Kahuna:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Megile
Posted Wed August 10 2005 14:58
No.
All planes blackout at the same G load.
if the chasing plane has not blacked out, it simply hasn't pulled sufficient Gs to blackout. Nothing magical going on there.


You are missing the point. If both planes are co-speed, co-alt and plane A can pull lead over plane B and shoot it down. When the plane B is chasing Plane A under the same conditions it cannot pull lead to shot--then there is a difference in G-load some how. Something is affecting g-load. Try it for yourself with a Spit and 109 under controlled speeds and turns. The 109 appears to be able to pull more G's. Not sure why.


__ </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

What you just described Kahuna looks like perfect example of elevator authority issue to me.(or lack of it) That has nothing to do with pilot blackout and G load in that regard. Therefore translated in this case, Bf-109 in your case was gaining on Spit due to it's better turning ability.

Like I say and Megile repeated, if all planes are blacking out pilot on same G's everything is fine.(of course relatively)

Xiolablu3
08-10-2005, 04:56 PM
I often answer ppl whining about a certain aircraft being over modelled 'well fly one then'

If they think the plabne is so good then why dont they fly it and prove what a super pilot they are in a super plane?

fordfan25
08-10-2005, 05:04 PM
maby if our planes were repersented in a historical way then we wouldnt whine the most. when we do get a fighter thats at least close to what it should be according to much data posted we get people attacking it with pics of clowns http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif.

SeaFireLIV
08-10-2005, 05:08 PM
Originally posted by Megile:
Kahuna, the easiest way is to test with both pilots in the same plane... then you will see what is happening.
The chase plane may appear to be pulling more Gs, because it is pulling lead, but this does not make it so.

Again, the two planes are not subject to the EXACT same factors

There certainly is NO difference between the 109 in particular and allied planes in G blackout limit.

I will change my mind when Oleg says it is so.

Once again the waters begin to be muddied, but Megile is correct. Some people find it really hard to understand why the lead plane appears not to black out while the following does. Basically, the following plane must make the `tighter` manouever. It`s a little bit like the leading motor car making the turn, but the 2nd one follows it too exactly to catch up and hits the corner. This is one of the reasons why you never follow the car; follow the road.

fordfan25
08-10-2005, 05:14 PM
Originally posted by Pirschjaeger:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by lrrp22:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by NorrisMcWhirter:

I strongly suspect the reason for that is precisely the same reason why there was far less whining seen on these forums before US planes were introduced. i.e. It's language

I'm sure even Oleg would agree with that - he's said as much in the past.

Ta,
Norris


By saying "It's language" you really means "It's the Americans", don't you Norris?

. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/10.gifAmericans aren't the only ones that speak English.

Fritz </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

no but people like to blame us for stuff so what ever http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-tongue.gif

Atomic_Marten
08-10-2005, 05:21 PM
Originally posted by SeaFireLIV:
Once again the waters begin to be muddied, but Megile is correct. Some people find it really hard to understand why the lead plane appears not to black out while the following does. Basically, the following plane must make the `tighter` manouever. It`s a little bit like the leading motor car making the turn, but the 2nd one follows it too exactly to catch up and hits the corner. This is one of the reasons why you never follow the car; follow the road.

That is not fair Seafire. Why don't you say Atomic_Marten I disagree with you in that in that. No, instead you have to make fun of my post. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

What is wrong there if I said that following plane have to slow down in order to reduce force that is affecting the pilot?


On a serious note, there is a way where you can pull a lead on a turning aircraft without blackout - you must be slower and reduce G. Therefore it is imperativ that both airplanes travell on exactly same speed and then start turning at exactly same speed and angle...

So where is the error?

waffen-79
08-10-2005, 05:24 PM
hi guys!

the Bf-109 or one-o-whine overmodelled o über? come on, please.

Some words bout me first, I fly mostly in 334th DF server, my STATS reveal that I'm an average pilot, NOT an ace or experten, I fly the K4 or th G6

Bf-109 let's see:

1. Easiest plane to take off = YES
2. Kills in One hit (most Cases) = YES
3. n00b or œber plane = NO, NO, NO

With no aleron or rudder trim, you're wrestling the plane all the time, the torque it's to heavy, specially if you use gunpods.

Using gunpods, try shaking a bandit (yak,spit or la) of your 6, it CAN be done, GRANTED I've done that lot's of times, but it's very difficult.

Perhaps the people that claims the 109 it's a n00b plane arem't using Force Feedback or they're abusing the PROP PITCH, Trim exploit. OR maybe they are just d_a_m_n GOOD in every plane, that it's possible. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Like I said I'm not an ACE, I'm lucky if I shot down 2 planes per sortie. But using a La-7 as a rule; I down 2-3 planes per sortie, sometimes I even get out of ammo first.

I know I'm not providing charts, just my personal opinion, but the uber n00b plane of all time IS and will BE the La-7

Let the flame begin http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/mockface.gif

(waffen runs for cover)

WarWolfe_1
08-10-2005, 05:28 PM
It saddens me to see that America is taking the brunt of the blame here.
Most people don't see the grass on the other side because it isn't the same shade of green. By this I mean, who here speaks, german, jap, russ, and all the other? I'm sure that if you could, you would see that gripes are always present Langauge aside.
Blame, point fingers

Go to any work place, there are just as many whiners as not.

It is human nature to whine.

Read this:
"Grown men can learn from very little children for the hearts of the little children are pure."

Mackane1
08-10-2005, 05:47 PM
YES LADIES AND GENTLEMEN!!!...It's everyones favorite thread!!!......


"Whiners who whine about whining and the whining whiners who whine about the whiners who whine about whining"


http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/blink.gif

Atomic_Marten
08-10-2005, 05:53 PM
Originally posted by Mackane1:
YES LADIES AND GENTLEMEN!!!...It's everyones favorite thread!!!......


"Whiners who whine about whining and the whining whiners who whine about the whiners who whine about whining"


http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/blink.gif

Hey mate, what about that two groups of whiners? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/34.gif

Pirschjaeger
08-10-2005, 09:49 PM
Originally posted by Atomic_Marten:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Mackane1:
YES LADIES AND GENTLEMEN!!!...It's everyones favorite thread!!!......


"Whiners who whine about whining and the whining whiners who whine about the whiners who whine about whining"


http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/blink.gif

Hey mate, what about that two groups of whiners? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/34.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Ignor him, he's one of those anti-whiner thread whiners. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

Fritz

Targ
08-10-2005, 10:05 PM
It's the man, not the machine...

Pirschjaeger
08-11-2005, 05:47 AM
Originally posted by Targ:
It's the man, not the machine...

I totally agree, 110%.

There is something consistant in all the FM threads that people don't seem to consider. For every plane people get have different experiences. A good example is L-spitter and myself. We seem to always have difference in regards to our experiences.

How do most confront this situation? Simple; accusations and incinuations. Although L-spitter and I almost never agree, I'm not about to call him a liar. I believe him.

We are different people. Are all flightsimmers created equal? When people, and I believe most are being honest, post their experiences flying a certain plane, there is always someone who yells "Liar" or "noob". Then comes the whining and flaming. Seems pretty childish doesn't it? It does nothing positive for the community.

I use a Saitek Evo and nothing else, not even the mouse, to fly. Well, I do use the keyboard a little for landing gear and looking around. I don't remember what L-spitter uses but I think he was using a stick, throttle, and pedals. (Yes, no L-spitter?)

My point is simple and should be logical to all; we are not created equal and we do not have equal equipment.

Instead of trying to invalidate a poster's experience, which he/she was nice enough to share, why not stay open minded and listen. We might learn something.

If L-spitter has a problem with the 109 elevator though I don't, it could be equipment differences, trim settings, or most importantly, flying styles. I never reach 850kph and use a lot of trim before close enemy contact. Why would I have a problem? But I'll believe L-spitter if he says he has a problem with it.

Think about it.

Fritz

SeaFireLIV
08-11-2005, 06:20 AM
Ah, just shoot them all. The good and the bad whiners. Everyone.

Problem solved.

Atomic_Marten
08-11-2005, 06:21 AM
That's true. Let the All Mighty sort them out.http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Pirschjaeger
08-11-2005, 07:11 AM
Originally posted by Atomic_Marten:
That's true. Let the All Mighty sort them out.http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

When you say "The all mighty", are you referring to Oleg or Hristo? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/blink.gif

Fritz http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/88.gif

NorrisMcWhirter
08-15-2005, 02:30 AM
Late reply here but:

Yes, I agree that the P47 etc have seen their share of problems but so have other aircraft, particularly the 190 (where would you like me to begin on that one?) but Oleg still maintained who whined the most.

About the only people you have never seen whining are fliers of Russian planes and you can come to your own conclusions as to why that is.

What swung it for me, as I'm sure you are aware from my references to it, was the ridiculously hysterical whining about the .50 cals that happened some time ago now which saw all those threads being opened followed by a public display of grief(!) Shortly after, they were changed and Oleg dejectedly announced that he'd only done it because of the whining and that they were 'no longer historically correct.' Compare this with the 'whine-to-fix-time' of 151/20.

Whether the complaints were valid or otherwise is, again, debatable but I'd suggest you look at the long history of the 151/20 problem for comparison where people had known there was an issue for a long time (and whined about it) but were told to 'learn to shoot' by those 'of the other side' and that there was 'no problem' by Oleg until he checked his code. Now they are finally fixed (i.e. made comparable to the Hispano, which is correct), we've seen whining about them and a re-emergence of the '.50s are too weak' complaint again.

Don't get me wrong - both sides whine but I believe that Oleg has been forced to make changes that he would have rather not have done because of what amounts to commercial pressure from the red side (in particular, concerning US planes) and that is a scary thought especially where the prospect of distorting history is high....even in a computer game.

Ta,
Norris

Atomic_Marten
08-15-2005, 02:57 AM
Originally posted by Pirschjaeger:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Atomic_Marten:
That's true. Let the All Mighty sort them out.http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

When you say "The all mighty", are you referring to Oleg or Hristo? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/blink.gif

Fritz http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/88.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

He he you have just mixed up our legislator (Oleg, he makes the rules) with our executioner (Hristo, which enforces them with enthusiasm). http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/88.gif

But no I did not ment in game... I have ment it in real life. Seriously. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/784.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/59.gif

http://free-vk.t-com.hr/domagoj/smileys/headhunters.gif

WTE_Ibis
08-15-2005, 03:12 AM
Originally posted by Pirschjaeger:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Atomic_Marten:
That's true. Let the All Mighty sort them out.http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

When you say "The all mighty", are you referring to Oleg or Hristo? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/blink.gif

Fritz http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/88.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


Good one Fritz http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/34.gif

But unfortunately the whiners are having an undesireable affect on the sim be sure. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-sad.gif

.

SeaFireLIV
08-15-2005, 04:57 AM
Originally posted by NorrisMcWhirter:
Late reply here but:



What swung it for me, as I'm sure you are aware from my references to it, was the ridiculously hysterical whining about the .50 cals that happened some time ago now which saw all those threads being opened followed by a public display of grief(!) Shortly after, they were changed and Oleg dejectedly announced that he'd only done it because of the whining and that they were 'no longer historically correct.' Compare this with the 'whine-to-fix-time' of 151/20.



Yes, Norris, I well remember this time. I was so vexed by this that I refused to touch any plane using the 0.50s (primarily the P51) for 6 months. I had nothing against the plane itself or US planes, but the SHEER WHINING was insane. It wasn`t just complaints, but attempted blackmailing, threats, Oleg being accused of some secret Commie agenda, etc,etc, etc, it seemed like it would never end. I also nearly got myself banned because I felt so strongly against the way Oleg was being treated.

I like you nearly boycotted all US planes because of it.

The Luftwaffe were bad originally, but the US crowd were definitely the worse in MY EXPERIENCE. I still love you America, just saying it like it was at the time. So in order of greatest worse whines it has to be...

5th place: Japanese flyers.
4th place: Russian flyers.
3rd Place: British (maybe joint 4th).
2nd Place: German.
1st Place: US.

That`s how it was. And that`s why I did this:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v31/SeaFireLIV/whinersend.jpg

Tvrdi
08-15-2005, 05:26 AM
hehe its only a game (an old one now) with limitations.....discussing about fighter capabilities is needless......

WOLFMondo
08-15-2005, 05:50 AM
Originally posted by NorrisMcWhirter:
I know two things:

a. Whining has been worse since certain planes were introduced.


But the BF109 and FW190's have always been in FB and they generate at least half the whines, if not morehttp://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif.

arcadeace
08-15-2005, 05:56 AM
Tvrdi you are a remarkable person.

Seafire I basically agree with your post but when I read discussions about whiner discussions one underlying reality comes to my mind: Why do you guys still let it bother you? I€m not trying to undermine what I may be insensitive to. But when I look at the a/c whiner threads, at this point in time, I just pass them by. I've always had opinions about each FM and how I think it should be but they€re just my opinions: how I feel. When people take it beyond that with numbers here and there, rights, nationality bashing etc. it becomes a muddled complete bore. So I click the page off. Discussions about whining seem to me just as meaningless and nonproductive, at least at this point in time.

When I click off this forum €" its off. Its been an excursion and the avatar names and written words are out of my mind (not saying there aren€t some here I think of warmly). I€ve appreciated this sim so much that anything written here hasn€t had the slightest affect on my judgment and enjoyment. It€s a great piece of work paying for itself untold times.

SeaFireLIV
08-15-2005, 06:04 AM
True, Arcadeace. I guess I got over excited. But I just hate rudeness and lack of appreciation. Whine, fine, but there are polite ways to do it.

NorrisMcWhirter
08-15-2005, 07:26 AM
Originally posted by WOLFMondo:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by NorrisMcWhirter:
I know two things:

a. Whining has been worse since certain planes were introduced.


But the BF109 and FW190's have always been in FB and they generate at least half the whines, if not morehttp://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I agree there has been whining over time but look around of late; most of the whine threads concerning the 109 and 190 are AGAINST them. '109 turns too well', '190 DM requires 5x10^6 .50 hits' type swipes presumably as some kind of concerted attempt to have them toned down in the next and, possibly, final patch. And look at the people that make the claims...they're not what you would call objective non-patriots (whereas I have the the luxury of just being 'objective' http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Yes, the 190 DM is suspect at the moment but I think some of these people would prefer to have it like the Zero and they wouldn't bat an eyelid.

Like I said, Oleg is best positioned to know who does what and that was his verdict.

Ta,
Norris