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ReligiousZealot
03-15-2005, 12:25 AM
This is my post, this is regarding the "fan boys" versus the "PF standalone" crowd. I feel I can speak on a somewhat neutral basis. The upcoming patch, is it going to be everything we all want? No, probably not, but it is a start.

I originally got IL-2 when it first came out and didn't care for it, so it sat around for a year or two until I returned it and got CFS3.

When I heard that 1C Maddox Games was going to be making a Pacific Theater flight sim, I was overjoyed and hunted down a place to preorder it. Once it arrived, I installed it, played it and was slightly disappointed. About this time I started playing online and found the experience more enjoyable than simple offline play so I dug up my CFS3 and traded it in to get the IL2FB Gold Pack.

I am telling you this background story simply to explain to you how I know how both sides of this game feel. The upcoming patch, looks like a great deal of excellent content will be added, but not a lot to the Pacific Theater. This is disappointing to me simply because that happens to be my favorite theater. What really is disgusting to me is how everyone seems to trade insults and act so childish just because they're not getting what they want. Aren't we all grown up here (or at least mature)?

I'm just getting frustrated with this garbage coming from both sides, what needs to be said, needs to be said. The Standalone PF players aren't getting everything they'd like or deserve -- but there's nothing anyone can really do about it. It's time to face the facts Standalone players, you need to get the Gold Pack before you can really cast a judgement on this series. You can't say you aren't getting service just because you aren't getting what you want, if you try the merged install, you won't feel so shunned. The game you purchased is getting service, but maybe not the kind you'd like.

In my opinion, I believe that Pacific Fighters needs one more patch, after the upcoming one, that includes more aircraft (I had an old post with the aircraft listing I took from the community that they thought should be included...I'll post it later depending on how this post does). How this is going to happen is beyond me, everytime I suggest something it seems to get lost in the fray of "PF is unfinished" or "needs XXX plane". So the true point of this post is to simply tell everyone to settle down and instead of complaining, try to come up with a way for the things they want to perhaps eventually be included.

I apologize for the strangeness of this post, it's 2AM here and I am greatly tired...I will be back tomorrow to explain things if I need be.

ReligiousZealot
03-15-2005, 12:25 AM
This is my post, this is regarding the "fan boys" versus the "PF standalone" crowd. I feel I can speak on a somewhat neutral basis. The upcoming patch, is it going to be everything we all want? No, probably not, but it is a start.

I originally got IL-2 when it first came out and didn't care for it, so it sat around for a year or two until I returned it and got CFS3.

When I heard that 1C Maddox Games was going to be making a Pacific Theater flight sim, I was overjoyed and hunted down a place to preorder it. Once it arrived, I installed it, played it and was slightly disappointed. About this time I started playing online and found the experience more enjoyable than simple offline play so I dug up my CFS3 and traded it in to get the IL2FB Gold Pack.

I am telling you this background story simply to explain to you how I know how both sides of this game feel. The upcoming patch, looks like a great deal of excellent content will be added, but not a lot to the Pacific Theater. This is disappointing to me simply because that happens to be my favorite theater. What really is disgusting to me is how everyone seems to trade insults and act so childish just because they're not getting what they want. Aren't we all grown up here (or at least mature)?

I'm just getting frustrated with this garbage coming from both sides, what needs to be said, needs to be said. The Standalone PF players aren't getting everything they'd like or deserve -- but there's nothing anyone can really do about it. It's time to face the facts Standalone players, you need to get the Gold Pack before you can really cast a judgement on this series. You can't say you aren't getting service just because you aren't getting what you want, if you try the merged install, you won't feel so shunned. The game you purchased is getting service, but maybe not the kind you'd like.

In my opinion, I believe that Pacific Fighters needs one more patch, after the upcoming one, that includes more aircraft (I had an old post with the aircraft listing I took from the community that they thought should be included...I'll post it later depending on how this post does). How this is going to happen is beyond me, everytime I suggest something it seems to get lost in the fray of "PF is unfinished" or "needs XXX plane". So the true point of this post is to simply tell everyone to settle down and instead of complaining, try to come up with a way for the things they want to perhaps eventually be included.

I apologize for the strangeness of this post, it's 2AM here and I am greatly tired...I will be back tomorrow to explain things if I need be.

ImpStarDuece
03-15-2005, 12:32 AM
If you want people to read a rant paragraphs would be advisible http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif

LEXX_Luthor
03-15-2005, 12:44 AM
Ya, you would have to be a Grumman Lawyer to read that bearagraph. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/icon_twisted.gif

Serial moderator Bearcat always makes one Big Paragraph--a Bearagraph, but I always read them anyway cos you know they are full of meat. The megatons of smileyfaces Bear puts into the Bearagraphs do help break up the Bearagraph into bite size pieces.

LEXX_Luthor
03-15-2005, 12:59 AM
Thanks Zeal...us non~Lawyers can read now.

I hope stuff comes to FBP for a long time--I toss out garbage on both sides. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

ImpStarDuece
03-15-2005, 01:15 AM
Thanks zealot, i can now navigate your stream of consciousness without having to deal with the aforementioned literary style.

Having PF standalone and PF merged on my system I can see how some players felt like they got the short end of the stick.

Still, on release PF was WAY more complete than either IL2 or FB. I guess many of us now feel spoiled for choice with the variety we have while others only see an incomplete piece of work. Its a perspective thing.

PF doess need more work. The more research I do the more I realise that there are large holes. Still, FB has similarly sized gaps and there hasn't been a similar degree of protest. Maybe the game is just appealing to a less hardcore or more theater oriented audience than before.

EnGaurde
03-15-2005, 03:06 AM
never underestimate the capability of human beings to act like theyre owed something. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

ive bought enough unfinished software to treat game purchases like ebay... fully prepare yourself to lose your money.

it still amazes me that some people think endless streams of complaints on this thread will somehow solve the problem.

in the end, it reminds me: never treat internet sourced opinions as anything remotely approaching worthwhile http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

enjoy your game, and dont let the Chicken Littles taint your view of an excellent merged sim.

Focus on that 90%, not the 10% yet to come. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Tallyho1961
03-15-2005, 07:00 AM
The IL2/FB/AEP/PF glass is definitely half full, and it's a most delicious and refreshing beverage to boot. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Stiglr
03-15-2005, 09:39 AM
Well, Zealot, if you're truly interested in the Pacific, you should be involved with Target:Rabaul (http://www.targetware.net). You might like the superior flight modeling and historic maps better there. Who knows.

LEXX_Luthor
03-15-2005, 10:04 AM
Ki~44 ?? Sweet

Stiglr, I am your offline AI nemesis, but if I ever go online, it would have to be something like TargetWare Pacific theater (as far as I know). I never was interested in Pacific until after the PF releace, now I'm hooked. How does TargetWare enforce or simulate military disciplined behavior among internet gamers playing military pilots? Can TargetWare online war be torpedoed by the Brownie Point Score? I guess I should look at the forums (duh!!).

VW-IceFire
03-15-2005, 10:04 AM
PF needs more maps...and a few more objects. That'd make it more or less complete...at least to a point.

Its kind of silly...we've got Corsairs up the wazoo and only two or three possible maps to fly them from. We've got two later versions of the P-38 but no maps to fly them from.

Whats the rumored Singapore map going to let us do?

Chuck_Older
03-15-2005, 10:10 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by ReligiousZealot:


I apologize for the strangeness of this post, it's 2AM here and I am greatly tired...I will be back tomorrow to explain things if I need be. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

This is why it's always wise to use your head before you open your mouth

ReligiousZealot
03-15-2005, 10:22 AM
Thanks for the link stiglr, that's something I will most definitely keep an eye on....Chuck_Older I'm getting the sense that you are trying to imply that I didn't use my head when I made my original post? Really now, I think I would've had to because evidently I typed coherently http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif.
I did not mean to offend anyone, so if I did, I am sorry. I just decided to state my opinion of everything, how I feel that I am being pulled in two directions. One feeling gypped of content and a good Pacific Theater sim, on the other hand, I feel as though Pacific Fighters is everything I had hoped. This post was merely me trying to help the two sides see from the other's shoes and maybe stop some of this bickering. Perhaps I've just stirred up the hornet's nest.
http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_confused.gif

LEXX_Luthor
03-15-2005, 10:30 AM
Don't sweat about Chuck, he/she is zealously going through a complete Re~Install of FBP....5 CDs ("forgot" to make backup game folder http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif).


Ice, Singapore will allow some British stuff I think (Pacific is still new to me). I saw "rumour" Singapore will be 400km. If so, I hope it goes south to the Java Sea islands off Sumatra. 400km won't reach Dutch Borneo. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/cry.gif

mortoma
03-15-2005, 10:46 AM
In any case those that are disappointed should never blame Oleg or Maddox 1C in general. The distributor Ubisoft is entirely to blame for any shortcomings that some people feel are evident the PF series.

Many distributors would have fought the Grumman lawyers on the basis that trademark infringement of 60 year old era aircraft and their names is on a very weak legal framework indeed. But Ubisoft keeled over to the slightest threat and exhibited no backbone, nor did they fight for us IL2/FB/AEP/PF fans.

But at least the developers ( Maddox games ) should see to it we get few more Pacific area maps to play on since we are not going to get many more U.S. aircraft or more ships. I think that would be reasonable, but if they don't it will be the pressure to get BoB going faster ( from greedy Ubisoft ) that will keep it from happening. So once again in this scenario Ubisoft would be the spoilers and not Oleg and his gang.

Airmail109
03-15-2005, 10:48 AM
The singapore map....if it includes Java will let me make the most historically acurate campaign ive ever made! I specialise in that area of aviation history......the air operations over south-east asia 1941-42! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

Stiglr
03-15-2005, 10:50 AM
Luthor, you'll have to ask clearer questions if I'm to answer them.

What do you mean, "Brownie Point score?" Or, "How does Targetware enforce military discipline among players?" How does any sim do that, offline or online? If the player wants to "fly like an idiot", there isn't much you can do to stop him. Flying a sim has to "assume" the player(s) wish to simulate something rather than just play AirQuake. You can have either version at Targetware, if you wish.

However, I will say that the "official server" scenarios are historically based, and can be structured, point-wise to reward the behavior the scenario designer intends (e.g., fulfilling the mission at hand, whatever that is)

As for the Phillipines and Dutch East Indies (both for 1941/42 and 1944), that's an area I'm very much interested in expanding Target:Rabaul to incorporate. To that end, I'm working on a new map and some of the earlier planes that'd populate that area.

ReligiousZealot
03-15-2005, 11:00 AM
Well put mortoma, but...isn't Ubisoft French? That would explain the lack of a backbone http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/88.gif


Sorry, I just had to say that, not to offend anyone of French ancestry or anything http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif.

SgtBriggs
03-15-2005, 11:05 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> this is regarding the "fan boys" versus the "PF standalone" crowd. I feel I can speak on a somewhat neutral basis. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

fan boys? doesn't sound neutral to me. i guess im just a fanboy becouse i have the merged install. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

Latico
03-15-2005, 11:10 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> Aren't we all grown up here (or at least mature)?
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

In answer to this question. In view of many of the post I've seen on this forum, I'd say the answer is NO, we are NOT all grown up or mature.

Sorry of the truth offends some of you.

ASide form that, I have really enjoyed the introduction of PF to the IL2 series. But, at the saeme time I am dissapointed that it falls short of fully covering the PTO in maps and planes/ships. I can also see where FB/AEP has come up short as well.

I was very much looking forward to creating missions and possible a full campaign based around the CV6 USS Enterprise. I wanted to do this as historically correct as possible, but without the maps (Marhal Islands, Gilbert Islands, Philipines, Northern New Guinea, Formosa, and Mainland Japan) and a missing plane or 2, And of course the main missing link the Yorktown Class Carriers, this can't be done.

I do hope that at some point in the future we'll get these holes filled.

LEXX_Luthor
03-15-2005, 11:36 AM
Thanks Stig, you answered great.

Phillipines and Dutch East Indies (both for 1941/42 and 1944) sound good.

Blackdog5555
03-15-2005, 11:58 AM
"Enough is enough kids"...thats how mom talks. LOL.

Treetop64
03-15-2005, 04:54 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by ReligiousZealot:
Well put mortoma, but...isn't Ubisoft French? That would explain the lack of a backbone http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/88.gif <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Oooohhh! Now THAT had to hurt! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/59.gif

jarink
03-15-2005, 05:38 PM
What flight sim IS complete?

I bought the Gold Pack after playing standalone PF for a month. I'd say that even FP/AEP is woefully incomplete (although perhaps less so than PF).

Missing from FB/AEP
* Any British bombers besides the Blenheim.
* Spit MK I and all the later marks (especially miss the XIV)
* Mosquitoes (at least we get 2 marks in the next patch, though)
* Various other Brit a/c including the Defiant, Sunderland, Fairley Battle, etc.
* DO 17/217
* JU 88G (night fighters)
* He 219
* Ar 234
* various German a/c like the Hs 123, Hs 126, all the various Blohm und Voss and Dornier seaplanes
* B-26 Marauder

Maps missing:
* Southern England/Calais
* Anywhere in the Med
* Poland (why does no one complain about no maps to make a P-11c campaign?)

The list could go on, but you get the idea. Russian aircraft are remarkably complete, I wonder why? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

Just to clarify, I'm not complaining. I'm just pointing out how something as far-reaching as this sim can be difficult to ever consider 'complete'.

Latico
03-15-2005, 05:41 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Blackdog5555:
"Enough is enough kids"...thats how mom talks. LOL. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Not my mom. All I got was........ "WHACK!!!!"

JR_Greenhorn
03-15-2005, 11:18 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by ReligiousZealot:
One feeling gypped of content... <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>I should think any Gypsies on these boards would find that remark quite offensive.

TAGERT.
03-15-2005, 11:58 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by ReligiousZealot:
This is my post, this is regarding the "fan boys" versus the "PF standalone" crowd. I feel I can speak on a somewhat neutral basis. The upcoming patch, is it going to be everything we all want? No, probably not, but it is a start.

I originally got IL-2 when it first came out and didn't care for it, so it sat around for a year or two until I returned it and got CFS3.

When I heard that 1C Maddox Games was going to be making a Pacific Theater flight sim, I was overjoyed and hunted down a place to preorder it. Once it arrived, I installed it, played it and was slightly disappointed. About this time I started playing online and found the experience more enjoyable than simple offline play so I dug up my CFS3 and traded it in to get the IL2FB Gold Pack.

I am telling you this background story simply to explain to you how I know how both sides of this game feel. The upcoming patch, looks like a great deal of excellent content will be added, but not a lot to the Pacific Theater. This is disappointing to me simply because that happens to be my favorite theater. What really is disgusting to me is how everyone seems to trade insults and act so childish just because they're not getting what they want. Aren't we all grown up here (or at least mature)?

I'm just getting frustrated with this garbage coming from both sides, what needs to be said, needs to be said. The Standalone PF players aren't getting everything they'd like or deserve -- but there's nothing anyone can really do about it. It's time to face the facts Standalone players, you need to get the Gold Pack before you can really cast a judgement on this series. You can't say you aren't getting service just because you aren't getting what you want, if you try the merged install, you won't feel so shunned. The game you purchased is getting service, but maybe not the kind you'd like.

In my opinion, I believe that Pacific Fighters needs one more patch, after the upcoming one, that includes more aircraft (I had an old post with the aircraft listing I took from the community that they thought should be included...I'll post it later depending on how this post does). How this is going to happen is beyond me, everytime I suggest something it seems to get lost in the fray of "PF is unfinished" or "needs XXX plane". So the true point of this post is to simply tell everyone to settle down and instead of complaining, try to come up with a way for the things they want to perhaps eventually be included.

I apologize for the strangeness of this post, it's 2AM here and I am greatly tired...I will be back tomorrow to explain things if I need be. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Like or Deserve? I can understand the *like* part.. I would like to date a super model.. or win the loto.. But deserve? Step Off son!

LEXX_Luthor
03-16-2005, 12:35 AM
I missed that...Lawyer~esque bearagraphs can be used to hide text!!

1C:: you want the complete -pf?
zealous board:: we Deserve the complete -pf.
1C: you can't handle the complete -pf.

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

buz13
03-16-2005, 07:21 AM
Just IMHO what we have here.
1. The best flight sim series ever developed.
2. The best support for a flight sim ever in the industry.
3. Lots of owners who want more of the same...very understandable (I'm one)
4. The most appreciative and the most critical group of sim owners I've seen on any forum.
5. A developer who, while providing excellent support and enhancements sometimes misses the mark on communicating with the users....but still does better than any other developer I know of.

So if I were grading the series and the developer based on what I have seen in the industry I would go with about a 9.5 http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif on a 1 to 10 scale.

Krt_Bong
03-16-2005, 09:11 AM
The original reason for Zealot's post is correct , there is far too much complaining and just plain childish and idiotic posts to wade through on these forums, I understand them but still. I agree we need certain A/C, Ships, Maps etc.. to complete the Sim part of this game, and because of greedy lawyer types for Big bully corporations trying to sink their fingers into a pie that was bought and paid for by the public some 60 years ago we dont get to see basically a moving picture of an airplane which can no longer make money for (not that it was designed to turn a profit) said Bullies. That said we really need to exercise just a wee bit of restraint about it cause unless your willing to start a class action lawsuit on behalf of computer sims, hobbyist building plastic or flying models, companies that make the decals representing the markings of these models, the many people who work in these industries who might lose their jobs because the Greedy Lawyers and their Equally Reprehensible Clients and all the rest...
Then you need to just shut up and take it like an adult cause it's not doing a **** thing to stop it from happening. The only people who see it is the ones who post here and I am soooo tired of reading it. And I'm not the only one.
I want Avengers too but Grumman thinks that they own that Aircraft and any images that might be made of it. Truth is they dont! It was built under contract to the United States Navy paid for with taxpayer dollars and the blood of every aircrew that went to battle and never returned. It is part of history and belongs to Us not Grumman; they received payment for it and can no longer claim it as intelectual property or otherwise. But ranting here is not going to have any influence on Grumman. Nope, making all this noise about how Oleg didnt give you what you deserve isnt going to include it in the next patch.
so if you want to make a dent, get your voice and everyone elses heard so that it makes a difference, then Do Something About It.
Write your congressmen, put a petition in your local hobbyshop let them know how it affects them, but quit complaining 'cos your only making these forums worthless as an avenue for constructive change in the flight-Sim community. I have been known to complain, everyone has but I know it's not getting anywhere and it's sickening to read all this and knowing how many people are posting the same useless diatribe and getting nowhere. There has to be one among you who has an idea or knowledge of how to go about it so speak up Lets Do Something About It!
but please lets quit posting all this b**ching and moaning huh?

Bearcat99
03-16-2005, 11:38 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by jarink:
What flight sim _IS_ complete?

I bought the Gold Pack after playing standalone PF for a month. I'd say that even FP/AEP is woefully incomplete (although perhaps less so than PF).

Missing from FB/AEP
* Any British bombers besides the Blenheim.
* Spit MK I and all the later marks (especially miss the XIV)
* Mosquitoes (at least we get 2 marks in the next patch, though)
* Various other Brit a/c including the Defiant, Sunderland, Fairley Battle, etc.
* DO 17/217
* JU 88G (night fighters)
* He 219
* Ar 234
* various German a/c like the Hs 123, Hs 126, all the various Blohm und Voss and Dornier seaplanes
* B-26 Marauder

Maps missing:
* Southern England/Calais
* Anywhere in the Med
* Poland (why does no one complain about no maps to make a P-11c campaign?)

The list could go on, but you get the idea. Russian aircraft are remarkably complete, I wonder why? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

Just to clarify, I'm not complaining. I'm just pointing out how something as far-reaching as this sim can be difficult to ever consider 'complete'. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I agree. Not only that but...... what makes people think that just because something like this covers a historical event, that the full historicity of the software would, should or even could fully encompass the historical reality?

I paid for a WW2 flight sim. Thats what i got. It covers segments of 3 fronts and allows for simulations of several others, with incredible attention to detail as far as the performance of the AC go. I have yet to find a flight sim as entertaining offline as this one. I think some of us need to just get a grip and enjoy what we have because there isnt a bettersim on the market at the moment. For those PF stand alone guys who "are just not interested in the other theaters.." Try to enjoy what you have instead of crying so loudly about what you dont... not to mention that..and this is just me talking.... I dont see how anyone who considers themselves a flight simmer could NOT try to get the most out of such a stunning product. I can go from Mustangs in the Ardennes in the winter of 44 to Tomahawks in the Pacific in 1941. I can fly a 109 over the frozen steppes of Russia or a Sturmo fully loaded over the Crimea with flak bursting all around me that is so realistic looking that it blows me away.

Plus the fact that with each upgrade I find more goodies..mind you now on excellent settings with my XP1600 and my 9500Pro it looked d@mn good.... Through the Barton and the 9800 Pro to the current 3200 and 6800GT it just gets better. I have never had a sim that does that.. most of them just kind of max out once you reach the maximum settings and thats it...

We have how many options of just running the water alone? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/heart.gif

This sim is a top notch product and anyone who finds more things to complain about than to be happy with is either just not looking, too cheap or narrow minded to go the full 9, or a type A personality that will ALWAYS find fault with ANYTHING... no matter how good it is.