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Sebastian166
05-27-2008, 11:00 PM
I learned that Saladin was poisoned by supposedly the Hasashin. However, at one point in the game, in a conversation between Al Mualim and Altair, one of them says poison is the weapon of cowards. So I don't know if Ubi just didn't do their research (Hard to ignore the cause of Saldin's death when making a game about the Crusades) or if that little fact is supposed to be a lie like most things are in the Assassin's Creed world about history. (Even though there's no mention of that)

altairego
05-28-2008, 04:39 AM
no, rather they tried to kill him 2 times and finally got the idea after he besieged alamut that maybe it aint such a good idea. indeed they shunned poison -- dagger was the main and very public weapon they used.

moqqy
05-28-2008, 07:28 AM
Saladin didn't get killed by the assassins.

Selur_Riatla
05-28-2008, 08:06 PM
I remember reading he was poisoned too, I forgot by who.

Either by the assassins or someone who wanted his power...try Google, that's where I found it.
I also found out the assassins ended up destroying themselves, and the Templars were destroyed by the orders of Pope-o-whatshisface. (Or so Google told me >&gthttp://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Kaxen6
05-28-2008, 08:19 PM
Saladin died of fever...

One of the times that the assassins tried to kill him, they were disguised as Saladin's troops.

moqqy
05-28-2008, 09:07 PM
The assassins were basically destroyed by the mongols, not by themselves.

Sebastian166
05-29-2008, 02:43 PM
Hmm, alright. I'm sure there are lots of different stories of what happened but all of those work http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

altairego
05-29-2008, 03:19 PM
the pope disbanded the templars after king of france philip the fair proscribed them for witchcraft because he was greedy and templars rich. the price of success proved to be death for the last grand master as well as all the king's family shortly after the burning of the last grand master in very mysterious circumstances.

moqqy
05-29-2008, 03:27 PM
Originally posted by Sebastian166:
Hmm, alright. I'm sure there are lots of different stories of what happened but all of those work http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

"All of those work"?

Jack_Vykios
05-29-2008, 05:03 PM
"You know doc, I'm no history teacher, but some of this stuff I'm seeing...it doesn't really fit historically..."

Or something like that.

Assassins think poison is a weapon of cowards, so the Templars would never EVER accuse them of using it, and thus of being hypocrites, would they?

Come on, let's be honest; the game's a work of fiction. Anything Altair says about the Assassins is pretty much irrelivant to the ACTUAL Hashashin. You never even saw him light up a joint and start talkin' rasta!

altairego
05-29-2008, 05:24 PM
what do you think he does during meditation before a mission jack? you don't know he don't do drugs. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

moqqy
05-29-2008, 05:30 PM
Originally posted by Jack_Vykios:
"You know doc, I'm no history teacher, but some of this stuff I'm seeing...it doesn't really fit historically..."

Or something like that.

Assassins think poison is a weapon of cowards, so the Templars would never EVER accuse them of using it, and thus of being hypocrites, would they?

Come on, let's be honest; the game's a work of fiction. Anything Altair says about the Assassins is pretty much irrelivant to the ACTUAL Hashashin. You never even saw him light up a joint and start talkin' rasta!

The real assassins didn't light up a joint either

altairego
05-29-2008, 05:37 PM
moqqy, how did they stay focused then? the famous assassin cake?

moqqy
05-29-2008, 05:51 PM
Meditation!

pietjevlip
05-29-2008, 06:16 PM
the famous assassin cake?

Am I gonna say it...?

Nothing is true, so the cake is a lie http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

altairego
05-29-2008, 07:35 PM
i think with him being an ismaili he'd have prayer 5 times a day first. can you imagine? just as he's about to assassinate, the blade is out, he's in position, focused -- bang, the muezzin calls to prayer... o god! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Selur_Riatla
05-30-2008, 01:00 PM
Never under-estimate the mighty Assassin Cake...
Actually the assassins did use drugs in order to "relieve themselves of fear" before a mission. Hence 'Hashashin,' or 'Hashishinnya.' Assassins were under the influence of hashish and opium during their killings.


Originally posted by moqqy:
The assassins were basically destroyed by the mongols, not by themselves.

The Mamluk Sultan Baybars brought about their downfall; but yeah, the Mongols, as you said, were the ones to originally make the assassins scatter. (Mongols attacked/weakened the assassins, the Mamluk Sultan Baybars finished them off.) Sad really...they were cool (thought violent, blind, and overall, brainwashed drones commanded by power-hungry grand-masters. Like the end of AC.)


And the assassin's did use poison. (i.e. Death Cap mushrooms.) In fact, it was used often.

GreyFlame
05-30-2008, 01:11 PM
Originally posted by Selur_Riatla:
Never under-estimate the mighty Assassin Cake...
Actually the assassins did use drugs in order to "relieve themselves of fear" before a mission. Hence 'Hashashin,' or 'Hashishinnya.' Assassins were under the influence of hashish and opium during their killings.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by moqqy:
The assassins were basically destroyed by the mongols, not by themselves.

The Mamluk Sultan Baybars brought about their downfall; but yeah, the Mongols, as you said, were the ones to originally make the assassins scatter. (Mongols attacked/weakened the assassins, the Mamluk Sultan Baybars finished them off.) Sad really...they were cool (thought violent, blind, and overall, brainwashed drones commanded by power-hungry grand-masters. Like the end of AC.)


And the assassin's did use poison. (i.e. Death Cap mushrooms.) In fact, it was used often. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Not again! >_<''

moqqy
05-30-2008, 01:38 PM
Originally posted by Selur_Riatla:
Never under-estimate the mighty Assassin Cake...
Actually the assassins did use drugs in order to "relieve themselves of fear" before a mission. Hence 'Hashashin,' or 'Hashishinnya.' Assassins were under the influence of hashish and opium during their killings.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by moqqy:
The assassins were basically destroyed by the mongols, not by themselves.

The Mamluk Sultan Baybars brought about their downfall; but yeah, the Mongols, as you said, were the ones to originally make the assassins scatter. (Mongols attacked/weakened the assassins, the Mamluk Sultan Baybars finished them off.) Sad really...they were cool (thought violent, blind, and overall, brainwashed drones commanded by power-hungry grand-masters. Like the end of AC.)


And the assassin's did use poison. (i.e. Death Cap mushrooms.) In fact, it was used often. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

No, the assassins never used drugs.

And, can you prove that they did use poison?

Selur_Riatla
05-30-2008, 02:16 PM
No one can prove anything that happened in the past, now can we? We can only assume that the teachings of books and research are correct. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif
I'm not saying you're wrong, I could be. I'm just restating what I've read.

Link 1 (http://www.unexplainedstuff.com/Secret-Societies/The-Assassins.html)
Link 2 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hashshashin)
Link 3 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Assassination)

The drug theory cannot be proved (as, I repeat, nothing can be) and it's often debated, though most say that it was used. (I also read a book that had a section about the assassins, and it supported the drug theory.)

Kax is right though, he died of fever (seems...pitiful, a great ruler dies of...fever.) But I'm still pretty sure the Assassins used poisons.
But whatever, it's not like either of us can prove the other wrong.

moqqy
05-30-2008, 02:27 PM
Uh, no, "most" say it wasn't used. It is about 90-95% sure that they did not use drugs. Only thing saying that they DID use drugs is the word of Marco Polo, who didn't even know the difference between Sinan and Hassan-Sabbah, and visited the fortress a long time after its fall (if he did at all.)

From your source:

"Although such stories have been widely circulated since the Crusades in the eleventh century, other sources have recently stated that such accusations of heavy drug use among the Assassins only reflected the fact that their contemporaries despised them as members of a minority and unfairly associated the sect with one of the more detestable vices of the time."

That's the first link - the sources used are not reliable at all, and are about "secret societies."

Okay.. Wikipedia.. :

"Many scholars have argued, and demonstrated convincingly, that the attribution of the epithet 'hashish eaters' or 'hashish takers' is a misnomer derived from enemies of the Isma'ilis and was never used by Muslim chroniclers or sources. It was therefore used in a pejorative sense of 'enemies' or 'disreputable people'. This sense of the term survived into modern times with the common Egyptian usage of the term Hashasheen in the 1930s to mean simply 'noisy or riotous'. It is unlikely that the austere Hasan-i Sabbah indulged personally in drug taking. ...There is no mention of that drug [hashish] in connection with the Persian Assassins - especially in the library of Alamut ("the secret archives")."

The last link, "assassination", provides no evidence what-so-ever, so it's useless.

If you want accurate information about the assassins, don't read books with "sections about the assassins", they're often completely wrong about the assassins. Read books such as "The Assassin Legends, Myths of the Isma'ilis" by Farhad Daftary or "The Secret Order of Assassins" by Marshall G. S. Hodgson.

And still, can you provide any proof that they did use poison?

Selur_Riatla
05-30-2008, 06:03 PM
Each site provided two different opinions. Again, neither of us can prove the other wrong, not completely. Only that more people agree with one than the other.
On recall to a book, it said something about Hasan giving drugs to the boys then putting them in a garden that was the 'afterlife.'

And one article says they used poison.

Doesn't matter though, that's not what the thread is about.

Nowhere have I read that poison /wasn't/ used. Either it wasn't stated or it said poison /was/ used. You cannot expect a game to be 100% acurate, now. Though I may be wrong.
Regardless...Saladin died at 55 around Damacaus due to fever, to answer Sebastian.

moqqy
05-30-2008, 10:51 PM
If you just go by "well you can't be SURE", then you're not going to have very fruitful conversations since only very few things are sure in this world.

Selur_Riatla
05-31-2008, 12:54 PM
I'm not saying you can't be sure. Everyone can be sure. It's just if they're right.
I could be 100% sure I'm right, but I could be wrong because I can't prove myself.
So yeah. I'm going to find those books you mentioned though, see what they say. (:

moqqy
05-31-2008, 01:25 PM
Uhh.. what? Of course I have it right, it's me.

altairego
05-31-2008, 01:27 PM
daftary is good; balanced. i can't find hodgson in any library in city though... such bull****! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_mad.gif

Selur_Riatla
06-05-2008, 10:37 PM
@altairego: If you can't find it at a local library/bookstore, then they usually hve books that you can read online...it's not as handy as being able to have a book while waiting in the doctor's office or something, but it works?

altairego
06-05-2008, 10:57 PM
i'll try it
maybe i'll be able to print it.

blarson11
06-06-2008, 01:16 AM
Originally posted by altairego:
i think with him being an ismaili he'd have prayer 5 times a day first. can you imagine? just as he's about to assassinate, the blade is out, he's in position, focused -- bang, the muezzin calls to prayer... o god! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

he's not religious.

altairego
06-06-2008, 06:38 AM
how the hell woudl you know?
assassins were ismaili muslims -- prayer 5 times a day a must.

moqqy
06-06-2008, 07:34 AM
Could you show me a source that states Nizari Ismailis prayed 5 time towards Mecca a day?

LaurenIsSoMosh
06-06-2008, 07:56 AM
Altair's mother was a Christian and his father was a Muslim (either that or the other way around)

He is spiritual, but not religious. I believe Jade Raymond said that herself.

altairego
06-06-2008, 02:38 PM
where did you read his mother was a christian?