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View Full Version : Hitokiri is weak and needs buffs



Liduras
05-13-2019, 12:00 AM
Hitokiri has 3 big problems:

The GB vulnerability of her heavies are so long that they can be countered with a GB on reaction.

Her GB range is not long enough to catch back dodges after feinting the kick. (All of her kick timings and feint into GB can be avoided with a backdodge at the same timing, and her sweep can be dodged by a roll)

Her "roll catcher" is slow enough to be parried after rolling away from her kick mixup. Proof: https://www.reddit.com/r/CompetitiveForHonor/comments/blu1vf/hitokiris_rollcatcher_in_action/

Nestramutat
05-13-2019, 12:42 AM
Jee, I've seen all levels of stupidity now. You sir win.

Cyroy95
05-13-2019, 02:09 AM
Jee, I've seen all levels of stupidity now. You sir win.

Stupid? He's completely right though. Those are her major flaws that prevent Hito from being even close to viable.

Vendelkin
05-13-2019, 04:09 AM
Jee, I've seen all levels of stupidity now. You sir win.

Cyroy is right. Heck with good spacing even a singlw back dodge avoids the sweep. And if she trades it she only gets 17 dmg. Its really a terrible move with terrible recoveries. Im not sure qhat she needs as a buff, ive been trying to figure out what too add or add+take that wouldnt make her op but its a struggle. But she certainly at some point could use a mild buff. Shes B tier in my mind. Good noob stomper tho for thos who cant handle her 800ms infinite.

Nestramutat
05-13-2019, 07:20 AM
Do you all comment from a 1v1 perspective? Fail again.
In a gank she is stupidly OP, and for honor = gank.

Vendelkin
05-13-2019, 11:35 AM
Do you all comment from a 1v1 perspective? Fail again.
In a gank she is stupidly OP, and for honor = gank.
It is very difficult to discuss particular metrics outside of a 1v1 scenario. And although for honor has 4v4, 4v4 still ends up simplified to 1v1 + external events. And FYI all my experience as and against her has come primarily from pvp breach mode. Where very much she is not one of the more outstanding units not bad mind you, but no where near as game changing having a good musha can be, or raider, or minion lane dwelling lawbro. And in the 4v4 situation all of the weaknesses discussed above still very much exist.

In fact you can add one more. Her oddly tiny hitboxes. Her axe can animation wise go straight through an external player/pikeman without connecting att all. Her tracking and hitbox on many of her moves are exceptionally weak.

Additionally as many have said her animations have serious tells that allow you to know when to parry. Making her charged heavies much simpler to parry than they initially seem once you know the tells.

Her matchups are very hero dependant tho. If you are playing a character without any bashes or HA of their own she can be hard to handle for awhile. Learning to gb her charged startups tho is also very key.

Haemmerst0rm
05-13-2019, 12:06 PM
I would like to see the start up of hyper armor on Hitokiris heavies coming later then it is now. It is totally unfun to fight a hitokiri with hyper armor, especially when you are an assassin... We don't need a game where heroes have hyper armor and more bashes...

Knight_Raime
05-13-2019, 12:41 PM
Do you all comment from a 1v1 perspective? Fail again.
In a gank she is stupidly OP, and for honor = gank.

What does she have that makes her good as a ganker/team fighter?

Her hitboxes are bad. Her range is bad. She can't chase people down.

Her unblockable charge threat isn't even on the same level as goki's because goki's has a soft feint that sets up team damage.

The only thing I can really think of is her Tier 4 feat. as you can set that up in a gank quite easily. But as far as her kit goes I don't see what you're getting at.

Cyroy95
05-13-2019, 04:46 PM
I would like to see the start up of hyper armor on Hitokiris heavies coming later then it is now. It is totally unfun to fight a hitokiri with hyper armor, especially when you are an assassin... We don't need a game where heroes have hyper armor and more bashes...

Okay, done. Her hyper armour starts later. She can no longer effectively trade, she has no opener or pressure and mediocre damage. So what would you do to buff the rest of her kit now you've nerfed her only good point? Uncharged/Charged heavy mixup? Easy read and parry or just back dodge roll. Kick/sweep mixup? Backdodge, roll, avoids GB and parry her chaser because it is too slow. Now what can she do?

The_B0G_
05-13-2019, 05:03 PM
I feel like she has too much stamina personally, I get burned all the time trying to parry her, so I try to block and wait her out but my god does she have a lot of stamina, it feels like she can throw 15-20 heavy attacks/ feints before she tires.

With LB I can make it through one combo and I pretty much have to wait for my stamina to regenerate. Heroes like LB and HL can't sustain pressure at all, it's just quick spurts of pressure, then defend until you get your stamina back and repeat.

The fighting loses it strategy and mind games when you can go through your HA mixup over and over without having to worry about reacting to your opponent because of HA, they pretty much could do it without looking at the TV if they get a good matchup. Even when you slip an attack in, you're still getting hit and losing the trade.

The last few days every 4v4 me and my buddies play is all Raiders and Hitokiro's in gank squads, so much fn HA.

UbiInsulin
05-13-2019, 07:32 PM
Just a reminder not to flame other people who disagree with you. Just calmly explain your side of things. People always have different opinions in balance discussions.


Hitokiri has 3 big problems:

• The GB vulnerability of her heavies are so long that they can be countered with a GB on reaction.

• Her GB range is not long enough to catch back dodges after feinting the kick. (All of her kick timings and feint into GB can be avoided with a backdodge at the same timing, and her sweep can be dodged by a roll)

• Her "roll catcher" is slow enough to be parried after rolling away from her kick mixup. Proof: https://www.reddit.com/r/CompetitiveForHonor/comments/blu1vf/hitokiris_rollcatcher_in_action/

Re: the second and third points, "disengaging" (back-rolling/dodging/walking) is being looked at by the team as a broad problem that needs addressing.

MuscleTech12018
05-13-2019, 09:12 PM
Hitori is one of the most op chars ingame LOL, best kit ever. Everyone cries that "omg omg, it's slow and reactable". No it's not, not when your kit is the best overall with the most op hyperarmors, best feints combo and best delayed attacks ingame. Did i mentioned the most ridiculous lvl 4 feat ?:))

I'll trade anything for better movesets. AFTER ALL THAT"S WHAT MATTERS IN THIS GAME ! The tools to trade and overall strength... but noobs can't comprehend this :)

Cyroy95
05-13-2019, 10:16 PM
Hitori is one of the most op chars ingame LOL, best kit ever. Everyone cries that "omg omg, it's slow and reactable". No it's not, not when your kit is the best overall with the most op hyperarmors, best feints combo and best delayed attacks ingame. Did i mentioned the most ridiculous lvl 4 feat ?:))

I'll trade anything for better movesets. AFTER ALL THAT"S WHAT MATTERS IN THIS GAME ! The tools to trade and overall strength... but noobs can't comprehend this :)

She's not the most OP character by a long shot, B-tier at best. As has been mentioned several times in this thread and others about Hitokiri, she has no feint combo, no pressure or openers. Everything can be back-dodged, if need be, rolled out of. Her roll catcher is so slow it can be parried after a roll of the opponent reacted accordingly and to add insult to injury she has to feint her attacks when the opponent backdodges as letting anything fly will give the opponent a guaranteed guardbreak. The only thing good about her is her hyperarmour, but 30-45 damage on a trade is on the extremely low side as many of the cast can out damage this or trade equally with her hyperarmour.

She is slow, she is reactable, she has no opener/pressure tool, a horrible case of Aramusha-Syndrome and too low damage to continiously trade effectively. I'm sure that if you'd mention your main it'd quickly become apparant why you're having so many issues with her as the only thing that's slightly hard to do against her is aggressive play.

aibanatpemata
05-13-2019, 10:51 PM
So many defend this ridiculous character, it blows my mind. I swear you only need one good eye and 2 fingers to play this stupid OP sakura, and with one you can pick your nose. Damn...

Vendelkin
05-14-2019, 12:55 PM
So many defend this ridiculous character, it blows my mind. I swear you only need one good eye and 2 fingers to play this stupid OP sakura, and with one you can pick your nose. Damn...

Have you perhaps considered that so many people defned hitokiri cause she is in point of fact surprisingly weak? And yeah i get you have to learn to handle her, but seriously she has some glaring weaknesses. Take the time to learn her and you will very easily start to see them and shut her down.

MrB3NX
05-14-2019, 01:51 PM
I think Hiokiri is too weak

his kick is complete useless very slow and predictable

his second feat options are wack

his ultimate can easily be dodged

Hitokiri NEEDS BUFFS .

Klingentaenz3r
05-15-2019, 08:46 AM
I feel like she has too much stamina personally, I get burned all the time trying to parry her, so I try to block and wait her out but my god does she have a lot of stamina, it feels like she can throw 15-20 heavy attacks/ feints before she tires.

With LB I can make it through one combo and I pretty much have to wait for my stamina to regenerate. Heroes like LB and HL can't sustain pressure at all, it's just quick spurts of pressure, then defend until you get your stamina back and repeat.

The fighting loses it strategy and mind games when you can go through your HA mixup over and over without having to worry about reacting to your opponent because of HA, they pretty much could do it without looking at the TV if they get a good matchup. Even when you slip an attack in, you're still getting hit and losing the trade.

The last few days every 4v4 me and my buddies play is all Raiders and Hitokiro's in gank squads, so much fn HA.

I can relate to that. I currently concentrate since last season solely on Aramusha and even if I outplay my new hitokiri opponents often times in the first rounds they can easily come back by just destroying my mixups by throwing out midcombo a heavy with instant hyper armor and start their offense. Cannot bait it out atm due to move duration times, recovery times and the time until you can actually cancel of my character so that I don't get back to neutral in time. So factually hitokiri can easily obliterate my entire gameplay without much effort and force me to turtle. I don't have these issues if I pick heroes with a bash (naturally). These are then usually much more ok/enjoyable encounter with hitokiri.

The cancel from kick or sweep into guardbreak is also incredible effective and does not follow the same recovery rules as warden's version and hence is much more effective and reliable (although I read some rules now on when you have to input your dodge so maybe I just still have to learn how to handle it myself).

I also find 18 dmg on every single light is a bit too much. Others with those kind of damage have to do a double light and pay at least some stamina price for that (and they don't have this kind of dmg on every single other light). With the top light I have the feeling so far that the animation might be off. I seemingly get hit before the animation reaches me, making this attack odd for me to parry or defend against. Need more testing on that though to be sure.

I would like to see that the devs get those things more in line and actually add more depth to the character's moveset by adding more new moves and options. Hyperarmor on heavies for instant trades on demand was not a good idea.

Cyroy95
05-15-2019, 02:00 PM
I can relate to that. I currently concentrate since last season solely on Aramusha and even if I outplay my new hitokiri opponents often times in the first rounds they can easily come back by just destroying my mixups by throwing out midcombo a heavy with instant hyper armor and start their offense. Cannot bait it out atm due to move duration times, recovery times and the time until you can actually cancel of my character so that I don't get back to neutral in time. So factually hitokiri can easily obliterate my entire gameplay without much effort and force me to turtle. I don't have these issues if I pick heroes with a bash (naturally). These are then usually much more ok/enjoyable encounter with hitokiri.

The cancel from kick or sweep into guardbreak is also incredible effective and does not follow the same recovery rules as warden's version and hence is much more effective and reliable (although I read some rules now on when you have to input your dodge so maybe I just still have to learn how to handle it myself).

I also find 18 dmg on every single light is a bit too much. Others with those kind of damage have to do a double light and pay at least some stamina price for that (and they don't have this kind of dmg on every single other light). With the top light I have the feeling so far that the animation might be off. I seemingly get hit before the animation reaches me, making this attack odd for me to parry or defend against. Need more testing on that though to be sure.

I would like to see that the devs get those things more in line and actually add more depth to the character's moveset by adding more new moves and options. Hyperarmor on heavies for instant trades on demand was not a good idea.

Her kick into sweep, or cancel into GB can entirely be avoided by a back dodge, just as your Aramusha combos. You should be familiar with it since it seems like you mentioned playing Aramusha recently. If you time it well you'll even get a free GB if she let's it fly. Both her lights are just 500ms with her combo one being extremely overly well telegraphed with the jump. They're both pretty much parry bait so 18dmg is fine imo.

The_B0G_
05-15-2019, 02:04 PM
Her kick into sweep, or cancel into GB can entirely be avoided by a back dodge, just as your Aramusha combos. You should be familiar with it since it seems like you mentioned playing Aramusha recently. If you time it well you'll even get a free GB if she let's it fly. Both her lights are just 500ms with her combo one being extremely overly well telegraphed with the jump. They're both pretty much parry bait so 18dmg is fine imo.

Parry bait 500 ms lights? I'm guessing you're on PC...