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Siegfried-Z
05-07-2019, 03:26 PM
Now that we are not going to have competitive tier list anymore, i think its interesting to have list of some good players which doesnt made them looking at what can be abused and then run away for 5min.

I do not like Kenzo playstyle but his level is very comparable to what is a decent/good FH player Imo.

So find below his tier list which i strongly agree with on my side. What do you think ?

https://youtu.be/NrdkIHWzAz0

Knight_Raime
05-07-2019, 03:30 PM
I disagree with a majority of what is said and placements. His tier list is not ordered and also does not account for match ups at all. Which makes it not very informative especially considering it's a duel tier list. Showcases's that Kenzo's overall general knowledge might be decent, but his character specific knowledge is very lacking. Kenzo is in the same tier as pretty much any other active youtuber. Pub stompy. Not comparable to players who frequently skrim and enter/place high in tourney's. So I don't particularly value him. His gameplay level and his game sense leave much to be desired.

I really only watch his stuff on occasion due to the guy's overall chill attitude. it's relaxing to watch. But I don't value his opinions.

Siegfried-Z
05-07-2019, 05:50 PM
I disagree with a majority of what is said and placements. His tier list is not ordered and also does not account for match ups at all. Which makes it not very informative especially considering it's a duel tier list. Showcases's that Kenzo's overall general knowledge might be decent, but his character specific knowledge is very lacking. Kenzo is in the same tier as pretty much any other active youtuber. Pub stompy. Not comparable to players who frequently skrim and enter/place high in tourney's. So I don't particularly value him. His gameplay level and his game sense leave much to be desired.

I really only watch his stuff on occasion due to the guy's overall chill attitude. it's relaxing to watch. But I don't value his opinions.

Well yes, i know many players have better skills than him. But these one are not going to release tier list anymore :/

As i said i dont like either his playstyle.

But his level and understanding of the game and his mech are a good mirror to most good level players (arround Diamond rank) and looking at his Ranking (even if there are no specifics placements in each tier), i mostly agree with his.

Anyway tier list are always slighly subjective but i do like his.
I'll wright it here for people Who dont want to watch all the vid :
D - Cent, Musha, Valk
C - PK, Glad, Shugo, Nobu
B - Shinobi, WL, Roch, Kensei, Nuxia, LB
A - HL, Shaolin, BP, Tiandi, Shaman, JJ, Hitokiri
S - Conq, Warden, Zerk, Raider

I like it because it looks like it fit for both PC and Console with Roch in B or Tiandi in A.

The only things i would change would be to put Valk in C and Shugo in B.

allenhollow
05-07-2019, 06:16 PM
poor muha x(

Siegfried-Z
05-08-2019, 03:06 PM
poor muha x(

As always. But, untill you are playing at high level, he can still be effective.

Big plus if you are on console and focus 4v4

Herbstlicht
05-08-2019, 04:47 PM
I Agree 99%. Would put nobushi lower, she is not only statistically one of the worst duelers, she simply has no offense to speak off with hidden stance being useful but dangerous as well - one light parry out of hs costs you a lot of stamina and you wont reg it for some time. But that's me being angry she gets ignored for do long.
Overall this list really seems solid.

allenhollow
05-08-2019, 04:53 PM
i play on pc where is everything can be parried, and i still wait to see devs give him some buff

Vakris_One
05-08-2019, 05:19 PM
Question: why do we need a tier list for the average veteran player's matchmaking experience? Because that is ultimately what Kenzo represents.

If it's to provide character matchup data for the general matchmaking experience then we have the developer collated win matrices for this purpose. And they incompass a much larger and more extensive data set than any one Youtuber can provide.

Meanpie13
05-08-2019, 05:34 PM
I would consider the State Of Balance data that Ubisoft provides at the end of each to be the best representation of the tier list for everyone who isn't in the top 1% of players, aka decent players on Kenzo's level. I also feel like that data is what should be most considered when making balance changes. I don't think it's possible for For Honor to be balanced on both console and PC and for both competitive and non-competitive players. Competitive players will always find a way to exploit the tiniest things to their advantage and the characters just won't ever be balanced at that level. FH is not the first fighting game to have this problem. I do feel like there is a place where FH could be roughly balanced on both PC and console, and for it to be balances around those good to great, but not quite competitive players in a way that would make most people happy. Ubisoft just can't seem to find that balance though.

Vakris_One
05-08-2019, 05:42 PM
I would consider the State Of Balance data that Ubisoft provides at the end of each to be the best representation of the tier list for everyone who isn't in the top 1% of players, aka decent players on Kenzo's level. I also feel like that data is what should be most considered when making balance changes. I don't think it's possible for For Honor to be balanced on both console and PC and for both competitive and non-competitive players. Competitive players will always find a way to exploit the tiniest things to their advantage and the characters just won't ever be balanced at that level. FH is not the first fighting game to have this problem. I do feel like there is a place where FH could be roughly balanced on both PC and console, and for it to be balances around those good to great, but not quite competitive players in a way that would make most people happy. Ubisoft just can't seem to find that balance though.
Competitive players also want the game to be fun just like everybody else does. They want the game to be fun to play at their level but at their level things also have to be viable so it's not as easy as just going 100% in the "fun" direction. And it's worth acknowledging that comp players do not create metas, they simply discover them. Developers are wholly in charge when it comes to what exists in their game.

Meanpie13
05-08-2019, 07:23 PM
Competitive players also want the game to be fun just like everybody else does. They want the game to be fun to play at their level but at their level things also have to be viable so it's not as easy as just going 100% in the "fun" direction. And it's worth acknowledging that comp players do not create metas, they simply discover them. Developers are wholly in charge when it comes to what exists in their game.

Ideally the game would be perfect for everyone, but I don't think it's possible for a game like For Honor to satisfy competitive players. Without making all the characters basically the same, there's always going to be something to exploit. That's why I just feel like Ubisoft should focus on balance around the top 20-30% of their players and forget about trying to make it ultra competitive.

Siegfried-Z
05-09-2019, 09:50 AM
Question: why do we need a tier list for the average veteran player's matchmaking experience? Because that is ultimately what Kenzo represents.

If it's to provide character matchup data for the general matchmaking experience then we have the developer collated win matrices for this purpose. And they incompass a much larger and more extensive data set than any one Youtuber can provide.

It was pretty much because i agree with his tier list.

Wanted to share it and see what people think. Again, yes there are better players than him, i even think i am better than him and i dont like his playstyle but it was interesting to see a list with nerfed BP and Hitokiri in.

The devs Data take a lot of Times to pop up btw and most of Times when we got one matrix things have at least slighly change already for a few heroes.

Knight_Raime
05-09-2019, 10:19 AM
Well yes, i know many players have better skills than him. But these one are not going to release tier list anymore :/

As i said i dont like either his playstyle.

But his level and understanding of the game and his mech are a good mirror to most good level players (arround Diamond rank) and looking at his Ranking (even if there are no specifics placements in each tier), i mostly agree with his.

Anyway tier list are always slighly subjective but i do like his.
I'll wright it here for people Who dont want to watch all the vid :
D - Cent, Musha, Valk
C - PK, Glad, Shugo, Nobu
B - Shinobi, WL, Roch, Kensei, Nuxia, LB
A - HL, Shaolin, BP, Tiandi, Shaman, JJ, Hitokiri
S - Conq, Warden, Zerk, Raider

I like it because it looks like it fit for both PC and Console with Roch in B or Tiandi in A.

The only things i would change would be to put Valk in C and Shugo in B.

Said players still participate in discussion. The removal of the competitive tier list was more ceremony than anything. It was an act of defiance because they're fed up with how the devs are being in general. So, as long as we have their understanding of the game to some capacity and they still participate in actual discussions there is no real need to create any other kind of tier list.

Due to my understanding of the game I can't shift my perspective to be anything else. So even if Kenzo's tier list is comparable to lower players it's still invalid to me. And it doesn't really help anyone. The most one could legitimately gleam from such a list is what hero is popular pick wise. And in that case we already get the devs W/L for each season which would be the most accurate of this kind of "tier list."

I'm rambling, I don't like the tier list because it's not accurate. Which means it can't be helpful for anyone trying to be serious about the game. And it can't be used for meta game speak either. It's just a personal list. Which is a novel thing. But to give it any other kind of importance or attention would just be wrong in my opinion.

shogun_guardian
05-11-2019, 11:52 PM
after 61 rep nobushi I want say all nobushi moveset is Predictable and all player know how to counter this player , she is to weak in 1v1 and if enemy want to Turtleing , nobushi will be Useless , hide stance cant be strong and op vs assassin and undoggeble attacks and they will hit you , stance need buff for undoggeble attacks , nobushi kick is very Predictable and most player dogging it , vs the heroes like cent boy and orochi , nobushi have no chance to victory cuz faint guard break and stance will not work against centi boy , orochi light and undoggeble side attacks are stonger than nobushi stance .

and long range attack will not make her strong cuz all players know attacks whom have long range are light and they all parrying it . and heavy faint guard break will not work for long range , and when enemy want to parry light we cant use faint guard break cuz there heave will hit you ,

my option is

- make more op stance

-faintbale kick just like highlander or like warden

-nobushi bleed attacks are take limited bleed for example 26 bleed , make it unlimite like peacekeere bleed attacks you will bleed how musch u resive bleed attacks

-fast light will make her light spamm , but better moveset will make better charecter

-she need some moveset agenst player who turtiling for example if lawbringer want just use shove defence and light , you will die slowly . she need some thing to be harm agenst turtule players

i post top Written last Month but now

-u can see law dady and radier have faster light than nobushi who have most move set by light attacks ,

-but i still offer new moveset its will be better than faster light

-faintable kick is good idea

-hide stance may dogge undoggeble attacks

-swife recoil have bug or its to weak to many attack will track you lights or heave or pum strikes , in 1v2 if you press dogge after block other enemy attacks will track and hit you , its really need review

-swife retreat is to weak and useless to many enemy can handle it and parry that light attack , is need rework and review

-softfaint gurad break for who try parry lights