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View Full Version : Unstoppable force has been nerfed as of the current PTS patch



xcel30
04-26-2019, 04:23 PM
Well spreading info because devs appear they would have a heart attack from doing so

Beard_0
04-26-2019, 04:39 PM
Not really the worst nerf I have seen, 2% damage for every 25k armor instead of 2% for every 20k. At 250k Armor you're loosing 5% which you can easily pick up now with the changed to re-calibration.

xcel30
04-26-2019, 04:44 PM
Well it appears they also drasticly increased the armor bonus roll

Sompero
04-26-2019, 05:24 PM
Not really the worst nerf I have seen, 2% damage for every 25k armor instead of 2% for every 20k. At 250k Armor you're loosing 5% which you can easily pick up now with the changed to re-calibration.

UF is currently 2% for every 10 000 armor in live server. 50% more weapon dmg if you have 250k armor.

PTS 2% for every 25 000 armor. 20% more weapon damage if you have 250k armor.

Beard_0
04-26-2019, 07:51 PM
UF is currently 2% for every 10 000 armor in live server. 50% more weapon dmg if you have 250k armor.

PTS 2% for every 25 000 armor. 20% more weapon damage if you have 250k armor.

You're correct, my bad I wasn't fully awake

For those that haven't seen yet, Unbreakable looks to have gotten a huge buff, now 70% armor repair on depletion

SkuzzyG
04-26-2019, 08:32 PM
That seems a tad overzealous.

The difference between expectation and reality with UF was always huge. I tried timing the useable uptime on the buff by recording a 4 man mission and then comparing all the time I was shooting at an enemy and all the time I had UF up as I watched it back. My results weren't encouraging. The buff basically gets wasted by being in cover, not having a clear target, having a target that is suppressed or otherwise in cover, dodging grenades, healing, applying armour kits, using skills, missing the kill shot, environmental kills, skill kills etc. It feels good when you get a long corridor and no one else is firing so you can chain it, sort of (not being refreshable really hurts it). At best you will have the buff 30% of the time and on average you will be looking at somewhere around 15-20% uptime. I understand others may be better shots, play on different difficulties, have different builds etc. but I would doubt anyone could sustain 30% useable uptime on UF.
Now, if this change happens, UF will be easily dropped for any damage passive.

On the plus side, fewer people will be ****ing up and starting engagements with gun shots, as fewer people will be looking to get UF to proc. :P

KotoTheMage
04-26-2019, 10:56 PM
It's 1% in PvP per 25000 armor. It's not gonna be usefull at all, in my opinion. At least, not as useful as 10% armor for example.

SinisterJoint
04-26-2019, 11:22 PM
LOL

wow... I might as well just Uninstall. Really don't like the direction this game is headed. Had such high hopes, oh well.


No you can't have my stuff

Nedrith
04-27-2019, 08:07 AM
Since it wasn't mentioned yet. You also get more armor in the PTS. You can regularly get a lot higher bonus armor rolls Also there are now +X% bonus armor stats beyond just the talents.

It's overall a nerf, just not as bad as it works. Though it was also never as good as most people thought. as Skuzzy said, it's not up a lot of the time so most of the buff time gets lost.

IMO they should atleast make kills refresh the buff though. So many times have I killed an enemy with like 1 or 2 seconds left on the buff to make it worthless for the next enemy.

Krush.SG
04-27-2019, 09:14 AM
Before the nerf pitchforks start full swing, yes it's a nerf, no it's not as bad as it looks, yes it was a reasonable nerf.

Just using my current stats as an example because numbers explain it better:

On live:

220k armor = 44% UF dmg bonus

On PTS(with some new pieces with new attribute rolls and some recalibrations, unoptimized):

346k armor = 27.7% UF dmg bonus.

This works out to about a 40% nerf to UF with my stats. Yes, mathing the pre and post nerf talent values does yield a 60% nerf value but it does not factor in new armour values (easily) attainable on the PTS, so it is not an accurate representation of the magnitude of the nerf.

Even so, it is easy to look at the 40% and make a blanket claim that it's a huge nerf and subsequently "rage quit", lol, but understand that no other talent post patch provides anything close to the old UF values of 40-50% dmg and leaving it unnerfed would make UF hugely overpowered. With a little more time spent optimizing gear, I'd expect the average player to be running around with ~325-375k armor post patch, so having 25-30% dmg from UF is far from underpowered compared to any alternative talent in the same slot.

Another thing to note is not only do you get a massive amount of survivability on top of all this, but your base damage values are likely to increase drastically, very quickly, post patch. With just 3 recalibrations from gear I already had, my stats spiked by 10% all wpn dmg and 6% WtD. With some messing around with new stats and swapping out a coupla items, I was able to turn that into gaining 11% all wpn dmg, 5% WtD and 13% HSD. My classic m1a went from 587k headshot crits at the range, to 706k, without UF up. This could very well see me landing just shy of 1mil HS crits with UF up and with 50.5% CC, that's gonna happen for half my shots, with a rifle.

The takeaway here is, take a step back and look at the big picture before tunneling into the specific nerfs, there are alot of changes happening on the PTS that go overlooked that make alot of these changes much more reasonable than they would seem.

FourthVariety
04-27-2019, 10:21 AM
The changes to UF contribute to the problems of visibility when it comes to players finding out what is necessary to optimize their chaaracter.


Imagine a character at 100%, stacking every buff in the best way possible.

Division 2 tries to equally spread those 100% across all pieces of gear and mods. Call it the squirrel doctrine, meaning there is no way to get a big chunk of those 100% right with little effort. Instead you have to drill down into every piece of gear, There seems to be an effort to prevent a situation where a player could say "this is the important damage multiplier" (e.g. UF on chest), while another one is far less important (e.g Mask).

This in turn means that no damage boost will really stick out from the crowd. At best, your character is just the sum of all mediocre boosts put together. Maybe they play well, but they certainly do not read well. Since there is no hierarchy between damage boosts, they are all boring, yet necessary. This is also how my character feels, like the sum total of a series of tiny multipliers endlessly chained together in a process that is way too tedious. fyi, I am saying this about a character that clears heroic missions.


Considering the power level creep and the increased amounts of armor that come along with it, UF is problematic. But not because it grants too much damage, but because it automatically scales up, while all other multipliers remain in the 5-10% toilet.

The overall result of this process is the strict control over TimeToKill the Division 2 is able to enforce. TimeToKill usually ranges from 'absolutely not fun' to 'barely fun, maybe'. As a player, I get the feeling that constantly getting nerfed and fighting your way back up to 'barely fun, maybe' is the desired loop of this game. How else am I to interpret the game removing most Elites from missions, after I finally got my damage vs. elites going? That is trolling. Got a lot of headshot damage as well? How about a flood of veteran machine gunners with heavy helmets? No doubt, this is troll balance.

In my opinion, the Raid will be the big decider, whether Division 2 has some growth left, or is a one trick pony in this regard. Because one way to approach the raid was to make it super-punishing, meaning the encounters are barely playable and your job is to find gear that turns the content back into 'barely fun, maybe'. The other way to approach the raid is to make the encounters not the barrier of entry for 90% of the players and instead focus on an experience that requires communication between players. The really good raids of this genre do not require cut-throat builds, they require information to be passed from one player to another to solve a level mechanic.

Tjrbbq
04-27-2019, 11:15 AM
This is the problem that emerged when the talents were overpowered from the get-go, at release of the game. People got used to the fact that talents like Berserk had 100% more dmg at 0% armor, 40% UF damage etc.
Now when they are "nerfed" and people aren't killing mobs fast enough they get the "my char is trash-tier" feeling. Hence the frustrated comments all over the forums.

People need to realize that the whole playerbase is hit by the same "nerfs". Are these even nerfs? Nah, they're not.. they're adjustments, they're just lowering the brutal amount of gained dynamic damage numbers by X amount of % which means that these damage numbers can lean more toward a linear static line.
This is because future stuff will be easier to adjust and balance and gear/weapons will be much easier to add to the game with much reduced risk of having said gear pieces/weapons needing an overhaul all the time. Saves a lot of headaches for the devs and ultimately, will save a huge amount of time. = More content for us.
Don't think they haven't thought this through properly.

If you didn't understand my point:
tl;dr : When these changes have hit LIVE > future release of weapons/gear > player feedback > Instead of everything needing a complete overhaul time after time(more work), they will only need small adjustments (less work) > more content

You can start calling changes as "nerfs" only when a targeted group of the playerbase get these changes, e.g. if we'd see UF getting nerfed to 20% damage while Berserk was still at 100% dmg at 0% armor.

Right now, the whole talent system is getting an overhaul.

Yes, of course, they put themselves in this predicament.. not refuting that.

MightMight-GER
04-27-2019, 11:41 AM
Right now, the whole talent system is getting an overhaul.
Yes. 1.5 months after release of the game just prior to the release of the raid most of the dedicated PvE community is waiting for. Which in turn will more than likley change the whole thing again with "raid gear" and 515+ drops. Grind like no tomorrow, only you cant, because stats are changing and you never know where the hammer will fall next.

Yes, griniding is the point of a looter shooter. But you need to keep your playerbase happy. Nerfing/adjusting everyone toward a "linear static line" doesnt help. The "liner static line" doesn't make anyone happy . Nobody but some few nuts (myself included) with too much time on their hands even care about balance in PvE . The vast majority of the dedicated player base just wants to feel powerful, clear content without much issuse and enjoy perfecting two ore three viable end game builds. They want to feel strong and to hell with balance. It does matter very little how good or bad these balacing nerfs are. It's just not fun for way too many players to have to regrind on the same item level just because Massive didn't look at it twice before release.
WT4 to WT5 already was a huge hit to the health of the game. This will be much worse. And it wont matter one bit how balanced it actually is.

Tjrbbq
04-27-2019, 11:51 AM
Yes. 1.5 months after release of the game just prior to the release of the raid most of the dedicated PvE community is waiting for. Which in turn will more than likley change the whole thing again with "raid gear" and 515+ drops. Grind like no tomorrow, only you cant, because stats are changing and you never know where the hammer will fall next.

Yes, griniding is the point of a looter shooter. But you need to keep your playerbase happy. Nerfing/adjusting everyone toward a "linear static line" doesnt help. The "liner static line" doesn't make anyone happy . Nobody but some few nuts (myself included) with too much time on their hands even care about balance in PvE . The vast majority of the dedicated player base just wants to feel powerful, clear content without much issuse and enjoy perfecting two ore three viable end game builds. They want to feel strong and to hell with balance. It does matter very little how good or bad these balacing nerfs are. It's just not fun for way too many players to have to regrind on the same item level just because Massive didn't look at it twice before release.
WT4 to WT5 already was a huge hit to the health of the game. This will be much worse. And it wont matter one bit how balanced it actually is.

I completely agree, I want to feel powerful too.

They opened Pandora's Box when they didn't properly balance PvP and PvE separately at the start. This is the result now.

BorrieTheBlade
04-27-2019, 12:30 PM
Before the nerf pitchforks start full swing, yes it's a nerf, no it's not as bad as it looks, yes it was a reasonable nerf.

Just using my current stats as an example because numbers explain it better:

On live:

220k armor = 44% UF dmg bonus

On PTS(with some new pieces with new attribute rolls and some recalibrations, unoptimized):

346k armor = 27.7% UF dmg bonus.

This works out to about a 40% nerf to UF with my stats. Yes, mathing the pre and post nerf talent values does yield a 60% nerf value but it does not factor in new armour values (easily) attainable on the PTS, so it is not an accurate representation of the magnitude of the nerf.

Even so, it is easy to look at the 40% and make a blanket claim that it's a huge nerf and subsequently "rage quit", lol, but understand that no other talent post patch provides anything close to the old UF values of 40-50% dmg and leaving it unnerfed would make UF hugely overpowered. With a little more time spent optimizing gear, I'd expect the average player to be running around with ~325-375k armor post patch, so having 25-30% dmg from UF is far from underpowered compared to any alternative talent in the same slot.

Another thing to note is not only do you get a massive amount of survivability on top of all this, but your base damage values are likely to increase drastically, very quickly, post patch. With just 3 recalibrations from gear I already had, my stats spiked by 10% all wpn dmg and 6% WtD. With some messing around with new stats and swapping out a coupla items, I was able to turn that into gaining 11% all wpn dmg, 5% WtD and 13% HSD. My classic m1a went from 587k headshot crits at the range, to 706k, without UF up. This could very well see me landing just shy of 1mil HS crits with UF up and with 50.5% CC, that's gonna happen for half my shots, with a rifle.

The takeaway here is, take a step back and look at the big picture before tunneling into the specific nerfs, there are alot of changes happening on the PTS that go overlooked that make alot of these changes much more reasonable than they would seem.


I want to add to your great comment above.

NPCs have also been nerfed in both TTK and DPS to the player in the PTS so having more dmg from UF would just be a stupid for testing as it wouldn't provide the correct feedback from the PTS.

Relax people. It's phase 2

SinisterJoint
04-27-2019, 12:57 PM
It's like The Division all over again.

They released a game that might have been on the money in terms of balance, then people started complaining that it was too hard in beta.

So they run through (even though they just spent millions developing the game) and nerf without even looking at talents. This was the start of it all..

So now just like the division 1, we are this horrendous track. I don't even play anymore because whats the point? I'm max level, had a build that I liked and had some good synergy.

Don't get me wrong I don't mind the grind, What I don't like is wasting my time and that's what I'd be doing if I actually played on live. Even pts feels like a waste of time.



Just so bummed

FourthVariety
04-27-2019, 01:08 PM
If you do not want UF to scale up to 400.000, then give it a cap. But do not remove existing damage bonus from players, then expect them to re-grind gear to get near their previous bonus again, while also expecting players to cheer for you. That is akin to breaking somebody's nose, expecting them to give you a hug, because we all share the delusion the nose will heal up to look better.



If everything was balanced perfectly against everything else, there would be no value in choice.

Right now, people feel rewarded for choosing something that is more powerful than the rest. Nerfing this removes a reward from the player, which is a huge no-go. There is a reason why experienced loot gamers suggest boosting bad talents, instead of removing the good ones.

All the good graphics and sounds cannot save a game that feels bad from a psychological perspective. You wouldn't deliver bad visuals, you would not deliver bad sound. Why would somebody deliver bad emotions? Imagine textures being removed from the game because they were 'too high resolution'. In the example of a texture, it becomes very obvious that a good texture is a good feeling for the player that is not to be messed with. But in the example of a person logging back into the game finding their build destroyed and needing to grind a new one, it is suddenly ok?

Tjrbbq
04-27-2019, 01:40 PM
If you do not want UF to scale up to 400.000, then give it a cap. But do not remove existing damage bonus from players, then expect them to re-grind gear to get near their previous bonus again, while also expecting players to cheer for you. That is akin to breaking somebody's nose, expecting them to give you a hug, because we all share the delusion the nose will heal up to look better.

Why would you have to farm again? They're literally balancing everything to match the new damage numbers, is all. Instead of you doing 100k dmg you're doing 50k. The npcs are still dying just as fast.

Why changes like these are implemented is the fact that right now, your TTK is very low without Berserk/UF buff. But while they're on, you're hitting like a f*cking truck. High npc health means they become sponges when you're without the buff giving you the illusion of "hard content". This because the game is literally balanced around Berserk and UF in its current state.

Hence lowering npc hp to get their difficulty closer in line to your relative non-buffed damage range to not get the aforementioned sponge effect. While at the same time lowering these buff damages to not be overly godlike, 1-shotting npcs.

FourthVariety
04-27-2019, 02:10 PM
Why would you have to farm again? They're literally balancing everything to match the new damage numbers, is all. Instead of you doing 100k dmg you're doing 50k. The npcs are still dying just as fast.


I bet you that when I log into the game post patch, my UF attribute will be trashed, while my gear will still have all the old armor values. Three weeks later maybe, the new gear and its new armor level will compensate somewhat for what was lost, but on that day of the patch, I have no doubt that the game will screw me over.

It is no help that the NPCs get lower health pools. I am not interested in how enemy health pools progress in the game, I am interested in how my character progresses. So if healthpools are too high and time to kill is too high, there is a fix I can get behind and that is to bring the gear up to the proper level. It worked for world tiers 1-4, but at WT5 we suddenly need to nerf across the board? That is insulting and a step backwards even if time to kill is faster.

To be blunt, patch or no patch, the game will always have players who optimize every slot and therefore tear through the game and players who just equip large gearscore and are therefore trash at dealing damage.

fredchocolate
04-27-2019, 03:29 PM
Changing UF has made no difference. Enemies are softer, much softer. Damage received is....much less. AI is less aggressive.

The game has taken a several steps back with regards to challenge in general.

The pistol is now a viable weapon. Challenging content can now be made challenging, just use the pistol.

It's terrible, the game gives so much stuff, I have to actually take time to look at it and ... uh gasp ... think whether a particular item will be good in what context when combined with other parrts and weapons.................uh my head asplode.

So annoying I have to search Youtube to be told what is "Best in Slot", Developers should find some way to do it for me....can't they just LISTEN.

SgtDmX
04-27-2019, 03:55 PM
My biggest issue with UF is that you have to actually kill something for it to procc, and if you kill another target with the buff, it doesn't get refreshed.
Like SkuzzyG said, the realistic uptime of this talent is very low during a higher difficulty mission, I'd say around 5-15% is pretty accurate and probably even less in PvP due to the fact that killing anything in PvP combat rarely happens, and if it does the fight is most of the time already over unless you were outnumbered to begin with. Also for those who didn't know, in order to procc this talent, and any other on-kill effect, you have to actually finish a player off completely. Leaving a player in a downed state doesn't procc on-kill effects, further reducing the value of this talent in PvP.

You have to sacrifice alot of DPS for this talent, and this talent doesn't make up for it in most realistic situations.
I would like to see the duration increased, and be able to be refreshed by kills while it's active.

There's not many viable defensive talents at all, because they all require so much from the player to give anything in return, while many DPS talents have much higher impact and higher uptimes.

Mr._.Breeze
05-02-2019, 07:17 PM
I'm okay with this as long as there's still a significant damage bonus even if it doesn't equate to 40% esp considering the armor increase, And to bring it within reason of other talents after "nerfs" like Berzerk it's a necessary so it doesn't stand out. I agree it doesnt seem to hold as much value in PVP but in PVE it is useful though my Marksman build feels just as powerful with or without since most NPCs are one and done unless they are heavy elites. I'm more curious to see how TTK feels in the update (I don't feel like wasting my time in the PTS and then having to do it again in the live game). To me it already feels like even Heroic missions are way too easy with a coordinated group ever since the NPC nerfs that happened recently. I feel the game in it's current state offers no real difficulty scaling. It's EASY, EASY, EASY, and then SOMEWHAT CHALLENGING. But doing this all right before the raid feels a little harsh for those who don't grind hours a day. Time will tell but I'm hopeful. I've already removed Safeguard and Patience from all my builds and I still think that they overdid Safeguard and should have either reduced healing or duration but not both (while also changing the stat distribution requirements) and leaving a 20 second cool down. They effectively rendered this talent useless.