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Semi-on
11-19-2009, 06:12 PM
After having spent couple of years in offline flying I discovered the different world of online fights. Some disappointment ensued. I appeared to be an average skill pilot, quite unprepared for serious player-vs-player dogfight. The majority of rivals flying the same plane as I did managed to get on my six in 30 seconds of dogfight. When asked what I did wrong they replied that "there are some nuances that you don't know". I realize I must be missing a lot of details and lacking both theory and practice. But could someone provide me a kind of a guide to learn those nuances or give me a link. Your help would be invaluable.

Woke_Up_Dead
11-19-2009, 06:48 PM
Start here: http://web.comhem.se/~u85627360/inpursuit.pdf (http://web.comhem.se/%7Eu85627360/inpursuit.pdf,) it's a guide I keep coming back to over and over again. It's always tough when you first start online, though at least you managed to get into 30 second dogfights rather than getting bounced completely unaware.

AndyJWest
11-19-2009, 06:55 PM
Sorry, Woke_Up_Dead, the link appears to be a duff one. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/compsmash.gif

Flying online is a whole new experience. I went through the same discovery process myself, not so long ago. It does get easier though. Just don't take your inadequacies too seriously, enjoy what success you have, and keep trying...

TS_Sancho
11-19-2009, 10:35 PM
The bigger servers host voice comms as well as the game so if you haven't already, download teamspeak key the mike and ask for some pointers.

There are a lot of really cool people who enjoy this game and there are usually a few veterans around that are more than happy to help.

There are a few good air combat tutorials, one I would recommend is In Pursuit. Its comprehensive, factual and free. Download the PDF here... http://web.comhem.se/~u85627360/ (http://web.comhem.se/%7Eu85627360/)
( click the "free PDF" tab on the left)

The learning curve is steep if you want to be competitive so don't allow yourself to be discouraged and know up front there is no one "super move" to be an ace in a day.

Good Luck and I'll hopefully see you online.

X32Wright
11-19-2009, 11:10 PM
Find and join a squad that would train you one on one. Find one in your time zone and fly with them for two week before actually joining so you know if they fit you and you fit them http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

BillSwagger
11-19-2009, 11:21 PM
Originally posted by Semi-on:
After having spent couple of years in offline flying I discovered the different world of online fights. Some disappointment ensued. I appeared to be an average skill pilot, quite unprepared for serious player-vs-player dogfight. The majority of rivals flying the same plane as I did managed to get on my six in 30 seconds of dogfight. When asked what I did wrong they replied that "there are some nuances that you don't know". I realize I must be missing a lot of details and lacking both theory and practice. But could someone provide me a kind of a guide to learn those nuances or give me a link. Your help would be invaluable.


Here's a couple pointers:

Combat flaps help in turning, but bleed speed.

trimming the plane helps keep the plane fast, including keeping the radiator closed if possible.

prop pitch: this would be a lengthy description, but get familiar with it. It is used to conserve fuel, heat, and can help with dive speed.

Nuance: trim also helps in making tight turns. Use trim on top of joystick input and you will turn better than the joystick input alone.


I would say start with those, and then the rest is just practice and getting used to the geometry of different maneuvers.


Bill

Yskonyn23
11-20-2009, 01:47 AM
Originally posted by BillSwagger:
Nuance: trim also helps in making tight turns. Use trim on top of joystick input and you will turn better than the joystick input alone.


http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/winky.gif That makes me hear my instructor yell in my ear NOT to steer with trim input to align an aircraft. You fly with the controls and ONLY use trim to nullify the input needed. You do NOT steer with trim!

FIRST set the aircraft in the attitude you want with control input ONLY THEN trim to keep it there. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif

Woke_Up_Dead, thanks very much for the awesome guide!

Two other tips:
The Art of the Kill by Pete Bonanni. A book which came with Falcon 3 IIRC. It's F-16 specific in many ways, but there's a lot to get from it on general aerial combat as well.
Fighter Combat - Tactics and Maneuvering: The BIBLE as far as fighter combat goes. A definite must-have and must-read.
PM me for pointers.

Manu-6S
11-20-2009, 02:20 AM
In which servers do you fly?

Xiolablu3
11-20-2009, 02:22 AM
The most important thing is to learn about energy management :-

Remember that you can go much faster than your planes top speed in a dive.

Remember that you can climb much faster than your planes top climb rate if you were diving fast beforehand (think of a pendalum)

These two tips should help you work it out.

BillSwagger
11-20-2009, 03:34 AM
Originally posted by Yskonyn23:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by BillSwagger:
Nuance: trim also helps in making tight turns. Use trim on top of joystick input and you will turn better than the joystick input alone.


http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif That makes me hear my instructor yell in my ear NOT to steer with trim input to align an aircraft. You fly with the controls and ONLY use trim to nullify the input needed. You do NOT steer with trim!
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I totally agree with what you are saying, if this wasn't a game and an actual plane, sure, but there is a reason its a "nuance", and using trim inputs along with joy stick inputs will help in turns. Some aircraft benefit more from it than others.

Actually, i'd also recommend using 6dof, which is a mod that lets you move the position of your virtual head inside the cockpit. This can also give you a slight advantage when it comes to visibility.
I don't think either suggestion is going to make you a better pilot, but these are "nuances" that aren't immediately obvious which could give the other guy the advantage if you aren't aware.

I think this is what the poster is looking to hear.


Bill

Manu-6S
11-20-2009, 03:42 AM
Originally posted by X32Wright:
Find and join a squad that would train you one on one. Find one in your time zone and fly with them for two week before actually joining so you know if they fit you and you fit them http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

+100000

Yskonyn23
11-20-2009, 04:04 AM
As the smileys showed my comment was merely put down here for entertainment.
I did refer to actual real life training.

The fact that you can benefit from these 'nuances' in game is not contested.

http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

BillSwagger
11-20-2009, 04:21 AM
they need a 'sarcasm' smiley.

Yskonyn23
11-20-2009, 04:27 AM
Originally posted by BillSwagger:
they need a 'sarcasm' smiley.

Fixed, specially for you, sir.

BillSwagger
11-20-2009, 04:46 AM
it would help me better if you posted this:

http://prsnlty.s3.amazonaws.com/icons/cleavage_i.jpg



or

this


http://www.freedomcrowsnest.org/forum/images/smiles/sarcasm.gif

you take your pick,
http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

Yskonyn23
11-20-2009, 05:00 AM
The first icon will just take away attention from the actual message.
And as I always like to be heard that doesn't seem like a good choice.

http://www.freedomcrowsnest.org/forum/images/smiles/sarcasm.gif

Woke_Up_Dead
11-20-2009, 11:47 AM
Originally posted by AndyJWest:
Sorry, Woke_Up_Dead, the link appears to be a duff one. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/compsmash.gif


Oops, I included a coma at the end of the html, try now: http://web.comhem.se/~u85627360/inpursuit.pdf (http://web.comhem.se/%7Eu85627360/inpursuit.pdf)

Woke_Up_Dead
11-20-2009, 12:12 PM
Originally posted by BillSwagger:

Here's a couple pointers:

trimming the plane helps keep the plane fast, including keeping the radiator closed if possible.

prop pitch: this would be a lengthy description, but get familiar with it. It is used to conserve fuel, heat, and can help with dive speed.

Nuance: trim also helps in making tight turns. Use trim on top of joystick input and you will turn better than the joystick input alone.

Bill

I don't know Bill, I think those are good advanced tips or tips for flying between dogfights but they are very low on the list of things to do DURING a dogfight, especially for a new pilot online. Yes, they help a little, but for new pilots the positive benefits of fiddling with trim and rads will be outweighed by the negative of being too distracted by them.

I would advise this: between dogfights try to keep your engine cool and your plane trimmed, but as soon as you enter a dogfight close the rads or set them to 2 or 4, set prop pitch to 100%, then forget about rads, pitch and trim until the fight is over. Once you start getting better in dogfights you can start looking for that little edge by fiddling with prop and trim, start by reducing prop pitch in dives for example.

But before then don't worry about the nuances and concentrate on the basics instead:
-enter the fight with some sort of advantage
-always know where your opponent is
-keep your plane at speeds where it handles the best
-if you need to pass in front of your opponent's nose make yourself as small a target as possible (roll to hide your wings from him) and move in two dimensions while doing so
-don't always try to go for the shot, it makes no sense to waste lots of energy by pulling or pushing hard to try to get a difficult and unlikely shot
-try reading your opponent's energy

Also, learn how to safely disengage from a fight that is going badly and getting worse. Even if your opponent is in a faster plane that can catch yours, you will still be buying yourself a few seconds to cool off (your mind more than your engine), re-asses, and bring your speed and energy level closer to his.

M_Gunz
11-20-2009, 12:34 PM
Nobody mentions Joint-Ops (http://www.joint-ops.com/php2/index.php) training?

Semi-on, you have a short PM.

TS_Sancho
11-20-2009, 12:48 PM
That makes me hear my instructor yell in my ear NOT to steer with trim input to align an aircraft. You fly with the controls and ONLY use trim to nullify the input needed. You do NOT steer with trim!

FIRST set the aircraft in the attitude you want with control input ONLY THEN trim to keep it there.

I dunno, a buddy I have flown with quite a bit who's held his certificate for 40 some years uses the trim wheel to set AOA everytime we go up.

Yskonyn23
11-20-2009, 03:38 PM
Originally posted by TS_Sancho:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">That makes me hear my instructor yell in my ear NOT to steer with trim input to align an aircraft. You fly with the controls and ONLY use trim to nullify the input needed. You do NOT steer with trim!

FIRST set the aircraft in the attitude you want with control input ONLY THEN trim to keep it there.

I dunno, a buddy I have flown with quite a bit who's held his certificate for 40 some years uses the trim wheel to set AOA everytime we go up. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

If he does set his attitude with trim he's just being lazy. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif
If he first sets his attitude and then trims to keep it there, he's doing it by the book. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

BillSwagger
11-21-2009, 01:27 AM
Originally posted by Woke_Up_Dead:

I don't know Bill, I think those are good advanced tips or tips for flying between dogfights but they are very low on the list of things to do DURING a dogfight, especially for a new pilot online.

Advanced or not, or no matter how distracting, using trim DURING a dog fight helps. Your not using trim to trim up the plane, you are using trim to help steer the plane. Its that simple. I recommend trying it out using a P-38 in a dive. When the P-38 reaches compressibility use the joystick to recover, and then try to recover using trim. You might see how that "nuance" could be useful in a dogfight, particularly for planes that lose control authority at higher speeds. It also allows you to steer while blacked out, however you will be blacked out for considerably longer, so there is a trade off. Some planes also lose wings. Ever snapped a wing on a P-47? If not then i suggest you visit this idea with caution, and get familiar with how it works.

It is worth learning and knowing for the dogfight so you don't get into a spat with another player using the same plane who keeps out turning you.



Bill

AndyJWest
11-21-2009, 04:39 AM
using trim ... allows you to steer while blacked out

If this is true, I'd say it is a bug in the program, and should ideally be fixed.

RegRag1977
11-21-2009, 09:08 AM
Originally posted by Semi-on:
After having spent couple of years in offline flying I discovered the different world of online fights. Some disappointment ensued. I appeared to be an average skill pilot, quite unprepared for serious player-vs-player dogfight. The majority of rivals flying the same plane as I did managed to get on my six in 30 seconds of dogfight. When asked what I did wrong they replied that "there are some nuances that you don't know". I realize I must be missing a lot of details and lacking both theory and practice. But could someone provide me a kind of a guide to learn those nuances or give me a link. Your help would be invaluable.

Welcome Semi On,


To me the most important thing is your controls: if those are not calibrated correctly, your AC will seem sluggish or over sensitive and there's no way you'll be able to get in position, or if you're in good position, no way you'll be able shoot accurately enough for the kill. Nobody around here has the same set up, and the same AC will feel completely different on two different one. Remember, unlike in real life nobody here have the same controls, or control sensitivity for the same aircraft!Nobody has the same joystick or hotas.

Rudder, elevator and elevator trim controls especially have to be properly set, and you'll like to have a rotary or (better) a slider for your elevator trim (so that you can smoothly trim and correct the deflection while you're aiming and that without having too much wobble http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif ): it will help you greatly, trust me!

Setting your Hotas, finding the good curves for buttons and axis WILL take you a lot of time (weeks) but without it you won't be able to get the best out of your AC and you may be too slow for online fight. All the online aces have found the best balance between sluggish and wobble, and i guess they spent far more time on this than on studying tactics (what you will have to do too).

Remember, any tactics will give you kills, but skills will: If you're not able to hit the ennemy after using the good tactic, then you're a useless "ammo waster". You'll notice that often your survival will depend on your ability to kill an aircraft quickly.

My two cents! I also agree with all that was posted above.

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/10.gif Get IL2 JoyControl: this programm will help you to set your controls: and good luck!

TS_Sancho
11-21-2009, 09:28 AM
Practice flying smooth, learn to bank the aircraft without gaining or losing altitude, learn to keep the aircraft in coordinated flight ( keep the slipball centered) and in trim ( you should be able to take your hand off the stick and have the aircraft maintain its flightpath.)

Good flying habits will go a long way towards winning an internet dogfight.

RegRag1977
11-21-2009, 09:58 AM
Very true!

Like in the lyrics of this song:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=moGiPkIeElg

major_setback
11-21-2009, 10:08 AM
I got quite depressed during my first few weeks of online play. Offline I could hold my own, quite easily dealing with my AI opponents. What you forget is that offline all you learn is to predict AI manouvres. online is a different matter. It will take a few months more to learn that new aspect of the game, but I'm certain that if you found out how to deal with AI, you will soon find out how to deal with real world opponents.
The 100% virtual world is a great training ground.

Thank God for the real world http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Scolar
11-21-2009, 01:21 PM
Originally posted by BillSwagger:
It also allows you to steer while blacked out,

That is as bad as using F6 and wonder woman view. Cheating!

Xiolablu3
11-21-2009, 02:35 PM
I learned on the WonderWoman dogfight servers.

Used to have great fun on 334th just dogfighting. But you naturally progress to the online, cockpit always on, 'mini-war' type of server with team vs team ground attack and fighter cover, like UKdedicated 2.