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XyZspineZyX
10-16-2003, 07:07 PM
Would it be possible to include these variants as well ? External model of the current 109K would need only small adjustments.

Bf 109 K-6 was a heavy attack fighter version of the K-4, similiar in concept as FW 190A-8/R8 "Sturmbock"s. It was supposed to produce one K-6 for every two K-4s. Armor weight was tripled, and two MK 108 were added in the wings (which were reinforced to carry them). 600 set of MK 108 containing wings were produced up to the end of war, and one K-6 is known to be tested at Rechlin. Weighting at about 3.6 ton, the heavy armor and armament decreased climb and manouveribility quite a bit, but speed was almost uneffected, making it ideal to attack bombers from a high speed pass, under the cover of light Ks.


Bf 109 K-14 was to be a special high altitude version of the K series, being powered by the two-stage, two-speed DB 605 L engine, which had a rated altitude of no less than 9.6 km, one, if not THE best high alt engine of the war. A 4 bladed propellor was also considered for better high altitude perforance.

It had worser performance, being slower and worser climber than K-4 under 6000m, but much better above, speed being 725-735 over 10 000m (70 km/h faster than K-4).
The K-14 was Messerscmitt`s equivalent of the Ta-152H. It seems that a light version, and a heavily armed one (3 MK 108s in similiar arrangement as K-6) was planned as well.

Two of these planes are believed to see service with II/JG 52 at the end of the war.


http://109lair.hobbyvista.com/models/bn1/bn1_k14/bn1.k14-6.jpg

Kit model of K-14. Wings guns like on K-6.


http://vo101isegrim.piranho.com/FB-desktopweb.jpg
'Only a dead Indianer is a good Indianer!'

Vezérünk a Bátorság, K*sérµnk a Szerencse!
(Courage leads, Luck escorts us! - Historical motto of the 101st Puma Fighter Regiment)

Flight tests and other aviation performance data: http://www.pbase.com/isegrim

Message Edited on 10/18/0301:58AM by Vo101_Isegrim

XyZspineZyX
10-16-2003, 07:07 PM
Would it be possible to include these variants as well ? External model of the current 109K would need only small adjustments.

Bf 109 K-6 was a heavy attack fighter version of the K-4, similiar in concept as FW 190A-8/R8 "Sturmbock"s. It was supposed to produce one K-6 for every two K-4s. Armor weight was tripled, and two MK 108 were added in the wings (which were reinforced to carry them). 600 set of MK 108 containing wings were produced up to the end of war, and one K-6 is known to be tested at Rechlin. Weighting at about 3.6 ton, the heavy armor and armament decreased climb and manouveribility quite a bit, but speed was almost uneffected, making it ideal to attack bombers from a high speed pass, under the cover of light Ks.


Bf 109 K-14 was to be a special high altitude version of the K series, being powered by the two-stage, two-speed DB 605 L engine, which had a rated altitude of no less than 9.6 km, one, if not THE best high alt engine of the war. A 4 bladed propellor was also considered for better high altitude perforance.

It had worser performance, being slower and worser climber than K-4 under 6000m, but much better above, speed being 725-735 over 10 000m (70 km/h faster than K-4).
The K-14 was Messerscmitt`s equivalent of the Ta-152H. It seems that a light version, and a heavily armed one (3 MK 108s in similiar arrangement as K-6) was planned as well.

Two of these planes are believed to see service with II/JG 52 at the end of the war.


http://109lair.hobbyvista.com/models/bn1/bn1_k14/bn1.k14-6.jpg

Kit model of K-14. Wings guns like on K-6.


http://vo101isegrim.piranho.com/FB-desktopweb.jpg
'Only a dead Indianer is a good Indianer!'

Vezérünk a Bátorság, K*sérµnk a Szerencse!
(Courage leads, Luck escorts us! - Historical motto of the 101st Puma Fighter Regiment)

Flight tests and other aviation performance data: http://www.pbase.com/isegrim

Message Edited on 10/18/0301:58AM by Vo101_Isegrim

XyZspineZyX
10-17-2003, 01:16 AM
I can see the K-6 as being viable, but not the K-14. High altitude combat is still porked in FB.

http://www.mechmodels.com/images/klv_ubisig1a.jpg


Oh yeah, I'm a P-63 whiner too! /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

XyZspineZyX
10-17-2003, 02:32 AM
Korolov wrote:
- I can see the K-6 as being viable, but not the K-14.
- High altitude combat is still porked in FB.
-

I agreed about K-6 if we have US bombing campiage. Triple armor! ummmm wow. I hope it have armor engine cover to protect engine even extra thickness for front windshield.

Regards
SnowLeopard

XyZspineZyX
10-17-2003, 03:06 AM
No Text

Message Edited on 10/17/0302:07AM by Panelboy

XyZspineZyX
10-17-2003, 08:03 AM
well I prefer the K14 to overcome these Jug´s and Ponies in high altitude /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

On the other Hand we get the TA152H for this and I think it was a better flying Plane in High altitudes because it´s longer wings . messerschmitt´s 109 H develop was not very successful
and it´s design is worse in my opinion.

http://mitglied.lycos.de/kubanskiloewe/110missing.jpg

XyZspineZyX
10-17-2003, 11:15 PM
Let's face it, the 109 was outdated by 1942/1943!!

/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

1 Judge not, that ye be not judged.
2 For with what judgment ye judge, ye
shall be judged: and with what
measure ye mete, it shall be
measured to you again.

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XyZspineZyX
10-17-2003, 11:27 PM
a K14 will be nice

and a K4 with an 2000hp engine too hehe

BUMP

http://gc3.normandie.niemen.free.fr/images/ezboard/signatures/enigmus.jpg

NN_EnigmuS.
Normandie Niemen virtuel.
http://www.normandieniemen.firstream.net/

XyZspineZyX
10-17-2003, 11:34 PM
I don't know about the K-14,but the K-6 would be a cool addition!

47|FC
http://rangerring.com/wwii/p-47.jpg

XyZspineZyX
10-18-2003, 12:30 AM
Yes include them, for the Spiteful and Spit 21/22/24 need some competition.


http://www.thundercycle.com/photos/dropdead2.gif



"Only a dead 'chamber pot' is a good 'chamber pot'!"

XyZspineZyX
10-18-2003, 12:52 AM
MiloMorai wrote:
-
- Yes include them, for the Spiteful and Spit 21/22/24
- need some competition.
-

Yep, a Mark 21 would be nice. /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif




Vezérünk a Bátorság, K*sérµnk a Szerencse!
(Courage leads, Luck escorts us! - Historical motto of the 101st Puma Fighter Regiment)

Flight tests and other aviation performance data: http://www.pbase.com/isegrim

XyZspineZyX
10-18-2003, 01:13 AM
Nah i hope they concentrate on fixing existing planes
insted of bringing new ultra-rare fighters in game.

XyZspineZyX
10-18-2003, 03:10 AM
S
I think this is a good choice that oleg should consider, its easy to any 3d modeller edit somethings on the ext and pit, and definetly a K14 would be my 2nd choice, 1st = G14 /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

-------------------------------------
Findimus Cealum

-------------------------------------
Findimus Cealum

XyZspineZyX
10-18-2003, 10:44 AM
I have to agree with ladoga, fixing existing planes should get priority over introducing new ones. Still, it would be an interesting addon.



Vezérünk a Bátorság, K*sérµnk a Szerencse!
(Courage leads, Luck escorts us! - Historical motto of the 101st Puma Fighter Regiment)

Flight tests and other aviation performance data: http://www.pbase.com/isegrim

XyZspineZyX
10-18-2003, 11:26 AM
agreed but there is no change to do for a K4 with a DB605DC(the 2000hp engine at take off)except on the FM and it will be a cool feature.

a G14/As will be nice too and the K14 and K6 will be cool versus those B17 box when you ll have to fight vs mustang,P47.....

but for that will need a good FB Fm at high altitude lol

perhaps that's why we don t have TA152H in the free addon lol or perhaps it s because it will be too hard for VVs fighters don t try to doghfight with a german plane haha

http://gc3.normandie.niemen.free.fr/images/ezboard/signatures/enigmus.jpg

NN_EnigmuS.
Normandie Niemen virtuel.
http://www.normandieniemen.firstream.net/

XyZspineZyX
10-18-2003, 12:07 PM
more EARLY war planes with CORRECT FM . please !

XyZspineZyX
10-18-2003, 12:19 PM
When you right,

Then was too all russia birds was outdated,because until 44 novemver was g6 and a4/a5 more as enough to fight against russia 44.

First g14 with mw50 was use november 44 jg52 Eastfront.

a9,dora,k4 are birds that russia has never fight and when only 1-2 fights over berlin.



Platypus_1.JaVA wrote:
- Let's face it, the 109 was outdated by 1942/1943!!
-
- /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif
-
- 1 Judge not, that ye be not judged.
- 2 For with what judgment ye judge, ye
- shall be judged: and with what
-
- measure ye mete, it shall be
-
- measured to you again.
-
-
- <a
- href="http://acompletewasteofspace.com/forum/index
- .php"><img
- src="http://acompletewasteofspace.com/forum/templa
- tes/subSilver/images/logo_phpBB.gif" border "0"></a>





Message Edited on 10/18/0302:22PM by Skalgrim

XyZspineZyX
10-18-2003, 01:30 PM
NN_EnigmuS wrote:
- a G14/As will be nice too

You have it already, namely G-6/AS ingame. It's one and the same aircraft. There's just the difference of a strengthened gear in the G-14/AS over the G-6/AS + the MW-50 stuff which our G-6/AS already has. So there's an error in the 3D model and in the name as well /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif .


Those Ks would be nice... along with Ta-152H, He-162A, Go-229 etc they're a must-be-in.
But I might add, that the allies should get their Yak-9UT and P-47M as well /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif . An I-224 MiG would be cool, 2. An notice, they all are "just" modding jobs. Take an existing model (Yak-9U, P-47D-27 resp. MiG-3U) and edit it, then Maddox guys do the same with FM, EM, DM etc and that's it. I don't think that this would take as much time as doing one from scratch.

XyZspineZyX
10-18-2003, 04:03 PM
Skalgrim wrote:

- a9,dora,k4 are birds that russia has never fight and
- when only 1-2 fights over berlin.

Dora-9's first saw combat in the East in December 1944 with Rudel's StG 2, and beginng in January 1945 JG 6 was equipped with the same aircraft and sent to the East, soon followed by IV/JG 3.

The "fights over Berlin" you refer to are most likely those involving the Ta 152's.

I/JG54^Lukas
He 162 A-2 Cockpit Modeler
...and soon the Hs 129 /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

XyZspineZyX
10-18-2003, 07:09 PM
Skalgrim wrote:
- When you right,
-
- Then was too all russia birds was outdated,because
- until 44 novemver was g6 and a4/a5 more as enough to
- fight against russia 44.
-
- First g14 with mw50 was use november 44 jg52
- Eastfront.
-
- a9,dora,k4 are birds that russia has never fight and
- when only 1-2 fights over berlin.
-
-
-
Really! it is true!

After the F series (and maybe the early G too) the 109 became too heavy for its small airframe. The dimensions of the plane stayed almost the same troughout the war. Only the length was increased a bit, to fit heavier engines.

The 109 series are relatively small and therefore, shouldn't have made it too heavy. Hell, when they wanted to mount multiple cannons on the thing, I just thing the recoil effect of shooting all those cannons at the same time would have serious effect on the speed and stability. Apart from the weigth issue.

1 Judge not, that ye be not judged.
2 For with what judgment ye judge, ye
shall be judged: and with what
measure ye mete, it shall be
measured to you again.

http://acompletewasteofspace.com/forum/templates/subSilver/images/logo_phpBB.gif (http://acompletewasteofspace.com/forum/index.php)

XyZspineZyX
10-18-2003, 09:33 PM
Willey wrote:
-
- NN_EnigmuS wrote:
-- a G14/As will be nice too
-
- You have it already, namely G-6/AS ingame. It's one
- and the same aircraft. There's just the difference
- of a strengthened gear in the G-14/AS over the
- G-6/AS + the MW-50 stuff which our G-6/AS already
- has. So there's an error in the 3D model and in the
- name as well.

Actually I believe the best renaming for the current G-6/AS would be G-14/ASC. The /As`s specs are 100% spot on for a 2000 HP DB 605ASC equipped G-14, but a too good for an ASM engined one, in both climb and speed.



Vezérünk a Bátorság, K*sérµnk a Szerencse!
(Courage leads, Luck escorts us! - Historical motto of the 101st Puma Fighter Regiment)

Flight tests and other aviation performance data: http://www.pbase.com/isegrim

XyZspineZyX
10-18-2003, 11:13 PM
what is the engine of K4 in FB ?
it is the DB609Dc with 2000hp or the one with 1850hp

http://gc3.normandie.niemen.free.fr/images/ezboard/signatures/enigmus.jpg

NN_EnigmuS.
Normandie Niemen virtuel.
http://www.normandieniemen.firstream.net/

XyZspineZyX
10-18-2003, 11:13 PM
sorry DB605DC lol

http://gc3.normandie.niemen.free.fr/images/ezboard/signatures/enigmus.jpg

NN_EnigmuS.
Normandie Niemen virtuel.
http://www.normandieniemen.firstream.net/

XyZspineZyX
10-19-2003, 06:49 PM
no one of both :-)
they mixed the DC with the DB
its the DB at low alt and DC at high
alt.

wastel

XyZspineZyX
10-20-2003, 04:33 PM
With db605dc 2000ps and effective propeller 9-12199 fly she 610km/h sealevel and 727km/h topspeed,

russia test from k4 too over 600km/h and 720km/h topspeed,

It seem she has db605db 1850ps and the worst serien propeller 9-12159 in fb.


Message Edited on 10/20/0308:01PM by Skalgrim

XyZspineZyX
10-20-2003, 04:52 PM
Look of the la-7 and la-5fn,they have almost same weigh,wingloading,powerloading how 109 with mw50

this airframe is too very small with big strong engine,

think 109 airframe was not less suitable as la-5/7 airframe for big engine.

and 42 was 109 not outdate,

f4/g2 was more as a match eastfront 42 for the russia plane,say too the russia.



Look luther tatik page.

http://luthier.stormloader.com/home.html


g2 with very good climb,accelerate,dive,dive accelerate,zoomclimb is too for spit9 not easy target.

Platypus_1.JaVA wrote:
-
- Skalgrim wrote:
-- When you right,
--
-- Then was too all russia birds was outdated,because
-- until 44 novemver was g6 and a4/a5 more as enough to
-- fight against russia 44.
--
-- First g14 with mw50 was use november 44 jg52
-- Eastfront.
--
-- a9,dora,k4 are birds that russia has never fight and
-- when only 1-2 fights over berlin.
--
--
--
- Really! it is true!
-
- After the F series (and maybe the early G too) the
- 109 became too heavy for its small airframe. The
- dimensions of the plane stayed almost the same
- troughout the war. Only the length was increased a
- bit, to fit heavier engines.
-
- The 109 series are relatively small and therefore,
- shouldn't have made it too heavy. Hell, when they
- wanted to mount multiple cannons on the thing, I
- just thing the recoil effect of shooting all those
- cannons at the same time would have serious effect
- on the speed and stability. Apart from the weigth
- issue.
-
- 1 Judge not, that ye be not judged.
- 2 For with what judgment ye judge, ye
- shall be judged: and with what
-
- measure ye mete, it shall be
-
- measured to you again.
-
-
- <a
- href="http://acompletewasteofspace.com/forum/index
- .php"><img
- src="http://acompletewasteofspace.com/forum/templa
- tes/subSilver/images/logo_phpBB.gif" border "0"></a>


Message Edited on 10/20/0308:03PM by Skalgrim

XyZspineZyX
10-20-2003, 05:58 PM
skalagrim,
we don't have the DB. the K4 in Fb reaches 730 at alt with MW50.
but over all, the MW50 performance is totally off, because it really works nice above rated alt.

so..we have an DB low (582km/h) and an DC at high alt (730km/h)..and totally porked MW50

wastel

XyZspineZyX
10-20-2003, 06:47 PM
We need 109 B ,C, and D.


Anyway who is gonna dogfight with Ta or P~51 at hi altitude where they can't get socially acceptable screenshots? /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-indifferent.gif

XyZspineZyX
10-21-2003, 04:10 AM
It is not known if the K-6 actually entered production - there is still no known Werknummer block for the series. It is known that at least one was being tested at Rechlin in autumn 1944.

There was no K-14. The K-10 and K-12 variants did not progress beyond the project stage.

Matt.

XyZspineZyX
10-21-2003, 09:14 AM
matttm wrote:
- It is not known if the K-6 actually entered
- production - there is still no known Werknummer
- block for the series. It is known that at least one
- was being tested at Rechlin in autumn 1944.
-
- There was no K-14. The K-10 and K-12 variants did
- not progress beyond the project stage.
-
- Matt.
-
-

Maybe for the '46 Add On. But for now, fix FM and DM of the many planes which are already in the game...please

XyZspineZyX
10-21-2003, 04:04 PM
matttm wrote:
-
- There was no K-14. The K-10 and K-12 variants did
- not progress beyond the project stage.
-
- Matt.

If you read Poruba`s 'Me 109G a K' book, they mention two K-14s associated with II. Gruppe of JG 52. In fact the DB 605 L engine it had certainly was built (jane`s has pictures of it).

I also have a GLC/E-2 chart that lists K-14. Remember plane designations were often chaotic.




Vezérünk a Bátorság, K*sérµnk a Szerencse!
(Courage leads, Luck escorts us! - Historical motto of the 101st Puma Fighter Regiment)

Flight tests and other aviation performance data: http://www.pbase.com/isegrim

XyZspineZyX
10-21-2003, 04:24 PM
- a9,dora,k4 are birds that russia has never fight and
- when only 1-2 fights over berlin.


And what about Batz's K-4 ? He flew in the JG52, and his K was not the only one /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

A-9 was used by JG54 as well as in the JG51.

http://franz.lampl.bei.t-online.de/toryusig.jpg (http://www.virtual-jabog32.de)

http://franz.lampl.bei.t-online.de/toryusig2.jpg (http://www.jg68.de.vu)

When once you have tasted flight,
you will always walk the earth
with your eyes turned skyward;
to where you have been
and to where you always want to return.

XyZspineZyX
10-21-2003, 04:37 PM
Platypus_1.JaVA wrote:

- After the F series (and maybe the early G too) the
- 109 became too heavy for its small airframe. The
- dimensions of the plane stayed almost the same
- troughout the war. Only the length was increased a
- bit, to fit heavier engines.

That's a myth. Improvements to the airframe meant that weight was actually saved as the aircraft was developed, especially in later-war Bf109 variants. For example - the K-4 was lighter than the G-6. This in turn led to increased performance, as did improved aerodynamics, engine, etc..

WRT the K-6 and K-14 - both didn't see operational service and so shouldn't really be included IMHO. It would be better to get the K-4 working properly.

XyZspineZyX
10-21-2003, 06:00 PM
K-4 was not lighter, it was heavier than the G-6, but with much improved aerodynamics.

Butch

XyZspineZyX
10-21-2003, 08:11 PM
-- a9,dora,k4 are birds that russia has never fight and
-- when only 1-2 fights over berlin.

yes for the russian Planes the G6 were still a match/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

http://mitglied.lycos.de/kubanskiloewe/110missing.jpg

XyZspineZyX
10-22-2003, 12:47 AM
We still dont have one of the most numerous 190 variants ever made.

Fw 190A-6.

gimme gimme gimme...oh, wait until FMs are fixed.

XyZspineZyX
10-22-2003, 02:50 PM
A-6 ? Has 4 Mg 151s, but much lighter than than A-8. Sounds nice. /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

But please, its a 109 K topic. /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif



Vezérünk a Bátorság, K*sérµnk a Szerencse!
(Courage leads, Luck escorts us! - Historical motto of the 101st Puma Fighter Regiment)

Flight tests and other aviation performance data: http://www.pbase.com/isegrim

XyZspineZyX
10-22-2003, 09:47 PM
I'll agree as long as the US gets the the P-47M/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

http://www.flightjournal.com/fj/articles/p-38_lightning/images/p-38_spread_large.jpg

XyZspineZyX
10-23-2003, 12:13 AM
Vo101_Isegrim wrote:
-
- matttm wrote:
--
-- There was no K-14. The K-10 and K-12 variants did
-- not progress beyond the project stage.
--
-- Matt.
-
- If you read Poruba`s 'Me 109G a K' book, they
- mention two K-14s associated with II. Gruppe of JG
- 52.

I have both of the Poruba books relating to the 109K- the first one and the follow up 'camouflage and markings'- which corrects a few items in the original. What he actually says (page 80 of the first book) is:

".. an alleged assignment of two Bf109K14s to II/JG52 is not confirmed by its commander, Major W. Batz. He does not remember any four blade propelled Bf109Ks coming to his unit. There is a theoretical possibility that in the end- of- war mess, prototypes came to operational units; but these craft would not have been Bf109K14s but DB605L powered Bf109K4s!"

However, he also says that Major Julius Meimberg of II/JG53 is known to have collected from Daimler Benz a 109 which had "all possible improvements from engine to cockpit" (in the words of a DB engineer), in early March 1945. Meimberg subsequently lent this aircraft to his wingman, Severin, who unfortunately was killed when he flew into a slope near Geislingen. The Werknummer of this machine was 331446 which implies it was a K4.
But, Poruba says:
"It is highly probable that the craft was a Bf109K14 adaption since the improvements were said to have involved the engine as well, which could have meant the installation of a DB605L. One of the (prototype) K14s seems to have crashed near Geislingen then."

Whatever-I say let's include both of Isegrim's suggestions- after the decision to allow the P80 and Go229 it would be churlish to refuse- planeset integrity went out the window long ago.

XyZspineZyX
10-23-2003, 02:05 AM
Further from one of my sources who is an expert on the Bf 109:

There is no evidence that the K-14 was operational. There is evidence that the DB605L never got off the test bench.


Therefore, they should not be included in the sim for historical reasons. Which means the K-4 is it.


Matt.

XyZspineZyX
10-23-2003, 02:11 AM
Hmmm... you all will probably want to kill me, but I think we have enough versions of the BF109 (14 of them?). I rather see some new planes...

GATO_LOCO

XyZspineZyX
10-23-2003, 04:56 AM
"Therefore, they should not be included in the sim for historical reasons. Which means the K-4 is it"


..

There isn't any "historical" standard left in planesets. It died away when 1C ignored suggestions to set a firm agenda on future planeset, and gave way to the inclusion of prototypical, inadequate, and non-combat service birds.





-----------
Due to pressure from the moderators, the sig returns to..

"It's the machine, not the man." - Materialist, and proud of it!

XyZspineZyX
10-23-2003, 05:48 AM
BerkshireHunt wrote:
-
- Vo101_Isegrim wrote:
--
-- If you read Poruba`s 'Me 109G a K' book, they
-- mention two K-14s associated with II. Gruppe of JG
-- 52.
-
- I have both of the Poruba books relating to the
- 109K- the first one and the follow up 'camouflage
- and markings'- which corrects a few items in the
- original. What he actually says (page 80 of the
- first book) is:

Well you have to give Issie some *credit* in that he did say that they were "mentioned" he just forgot the "alleged" part.

Problem is the *credit* he deserves is in FICTION and or CREATIVE WRITING not FACTS.

But that is nothing new.




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