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Kocur_
02-13-2006, 09:02 AM
Guess what plane cocpit this is? http://img397.imageshack.us/img397/4259/p47drazorbackpit5ny.png (http://imageshack.us)
Warning: do not use the game as a reference.

Krizz1972
02-13-2006, 09:04 AM
P-47 of course ...

BGs_Ricky
02-13-2006, 09:06 AM
P-47, Razorback versions

MystiqBlackCat
02-13-2006, 09:08 AM
I'm with Krizz, the front glass defeinitely looks like a P-47 bubble top, that with the huge radial nose seals it.

Could be a Corsair, but the sight is different, so that is a huge stretch, my money is on the Jug http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Treetop64
02-13-2006, 09:10 AM
Pbbbbt! Duh!

Think this could be any more difficult? http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

P-47 Thunderbolt, Razorback. The bubble-tops didn't have the split front windscreen.

Bring more puzzles! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif

PBNA-Boosher
02-13-2006, 09:10 AM
It's gotta be a Thundybolt.

Low_Flyer_MkVb
02-13-2006, 09:11 AM
P47.

ednavar
02-13-2006, 09:26 AM
You know, the image source was a bit of a giveaway anyway http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

p47drazorbackpit5ny.png

Kocur_
02-13-2006, 09:36 AM
Yes, this is P-47D Razorback cocpit. Note position of gunsight over lower front edge of cocpit, note also thickness of vertical bar between windscreen glass panel. Nice, huh?

So another riddle: since above is P-47D Razorback cocpit, what in the world could this be!?

http://img418.imageshack.us/img418/66/socalledp47cocpit1lg.png (http://imageshack.us)

rnzoli
02-13-2006, 09:37 AM
socalledp47cocpit1lg.png

Jaws2002
02-13-2006, 09:52 AM
Originally posted by Kocur_:
Yes, this is P-47D Razorback cocpit. Note position of gunsight over lower front edge of cocpit, note also thickness of vertical bar between windscreen glass panel. Nice, huh?

So another riddle: since above is P-47D Razorback cocpit, what in the world could this be!?

http://img418.imageshack.us/img418/66/socalledp47cocpit1lg.png (http://imageshack.us)

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/88.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/59.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif


This is one of the lowest points of the sim. Forward view!!!! Not only because many of them are wrong but because the attitude of the game designer towards it.
I was thinking. How would Oleg model the forward view of "Spirit of St. Louis" without counting on how the light travels. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/59.gif

Willey
02-13-2006, 10:16 AM
If it's not the 47, it must be a P-43 Lancer http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_cool.gif

Kocur_
02-13-2006, 10:23 AM
Sorry Jaws and Willey, but as the only repliers here you failed to give correct answer to original riddle.
( http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/10.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif )


So Fw-190 has THE BAR. But in-game P-47D razorback also has something in virtual pilot view, that RL pilot did not ever see. So how should we call <span class="ev_code_RED">this</span> thing? You know, to whine uselessly about this frontal view B(e)S(ure) using short and understandable term.

http://img344.imageshack.us/img344/1947/howtoname6du.png (http://imageshack.us)

NonWonderDog
02-13-2006, 10:40 AM
There's a whole heck of a lot of refraction on that first pic... (http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif) but the P-47 cockpit is still pretty horrible. I really wish someone had redone this one.

Kocur_
02-13-2006, 10:43 AM
Please note distance between top point of gunsight glass and armour glass top framing: in the virtual cocpit the gunsight is OBVIOUSLY too low - even without considering the nameless thing obstructing view, exactly like in Fw190's bar.

horseback
02-13-2006, 10:45 AM
So, if the Focke-Wulf has "The Bar", then can we say that the Razorback P-47 has "The Pyramid"?

cheers

horseback

anasteksi
02-13-2006, 10:55 AM
that cockpit is the biggest reason why i newer fly razorback p47's.. outside they look good but that cockpit is really horrible.

btw compare that screen to irl picture and you can see that gunsight is much higher irl than in game. If you look at the pictures of planes (doesn't matter what plane) you are able to see engine cowling. In il2 there are only few planes which cowling is visible.

Stigler_9_JG52
02-13-2006, 11:14 AM
Originally posted by Kocur_:
Yes, this is P-47D Razorback cocpit. Note position of gunsight over lower front edge of cocpit, note also thickness of vertical bar between windscreen glass panel. Nice, huh?

So another riddle: since above is P-47D Razorback cocpit, what in the world could this be!?
http://img418.imageshack.us/img418/66/socalledp47cocpit1lg.png (http://imageshack.us)

I'll take a wild guess...

It's a stubborn design team's refusal to take binocular vision into account when designing a flight sim cockpit? For other variations, see FW190, in which refraction is the ignored factor.

Am I close?

Jetbuff
02-13-2006, 12:34 PM
Another possibility. It was the efforts of a 3rd-party modeller which the overworked technical design team did not review as thoroughly as they usually do?

DaimonSyrius
02-13-2006, 01:19 PM
There is no doubt that the "pyramid" -as horseback has designated it- is in the wrong place, or has the wrong shape/size, or both.

However, is the pilot's free view really that different?

http://www.infonegocio.com/daimon/img/p47d-razorback-view-5.jpg http://www.infonegocio.com/daimon/img/P47-razor-IL2-5.jpg

(I have put a sky-blue mask on the unobstructed area, covering the prop too. The mask I've used can be checked in my paintshop-pro file (http://www.infonegocio.com/daimon/img/p47d-razorback-view.pspimage), the mask is in a separate layer and also in the alpha channel) **Edit* I've reduced the size of the pictures, reload the page if they don't show OK**

This is similar to the argument that pops up when discussing the FW bar, where some people say that even if the bar wasn't there, the nose cowling would still obstruct the view in very much the same way.

This is more apparent in the case of the razorback P47. Still, I'd like everything, bars and pyramids and cowlings, to be just like they should be.

Also the point-of-view seems to not be precisely the same in the 'real' picture (a bit higher) and the in-game picture (bit lower), as shown by the positions of the horizontal canopy frame and the top of the armoured glass frame. I guess all this just shows how 6DoF is a necessity.

Cheers,
S.

Kocur_
02-13-2006, 01:31 PM
Originally posted by DaimonSyrius:
I guess all this just shows how 6DoF is a necessity.


Wouldnt if some cocpits were modelled properly, i.e. to replicate what RL pilot could see.

DaimonSyrius
02-13-2006, 01:40 PM
Originally posted by Kocur_:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by DaimonSyrius:
I guess all this just shows how 6DoF is a necessity.


Wouldnt if some cocpits were modelled properly, i.e. to replicate what RL pilot could see. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

It still is a necessity to look around (more) properly, unless you're comfortable with having a paralytic virtual pilot that can only turn his head on a hinge.

Cheers,
S.

Kocur_
02-13-2006, 01:52 PM
Originally posted by DaimonSyrius:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Kocur_:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by DaimonSyrius:
I guess all this just shows how 6DoF is a necessity.


Wouldnt if some cocpits were modelled properly, i.e. to replicate what RL pilot could see. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

It still is a necessity to look around (more) properly, unless you're comfortable with having a paralytic virtual pilot that can only turn his head on a hinge.

Cheers,
S. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Agreed on looking around, but issue here is frontal vision - and in that, knowing how reflector gunsight works, 6DoF wont help.
Btw: looking around would be much easier even without 6DoF if vertical axis of head movement, when looking further than 90 deg over shoulder, would gradually move from 'neck axis' to axis located neared shoulder - effect of that would be similar to RL natural one.

DaimonSyrius
02-13-2006, 02:19 PM
Originally posted by Kocur_:
Agreed on looking around, but issue here is frontal vision - and in that, knowing how reflector gunsight works, 6DoF wont help.
Btw: looking around would be much easier even without 6DoF if vertical axis of head movement, when looking further than 90 deg over shoulder, would gradually move from 'neck axis' to axis located neared shoulder - effect of that would be similar to RL natural one.

Agreed on the 'virtual eye' not being on the 'neck axis' and how that would help when looking over your shoulder (some time ago, someone posted an animated graph of the head axis and the position of the 'eye' as the head turned, it was very illustrative), I'd be all for implementing that as a simpler fix.

However, if we're concerned about adequate use of the reflector gunsight, the better modelling of the canopy/armoured glass frames is not going to help either if all you're going to get is revealing how the nose cowling still obstructs almost half of the gunsight, as the picture you posted seems to show clearly. Great picture, by the way, thanks for posting it.

My point is that, functionally, it wouldn't be much of an improvement for the frontal view through the reflector gunsight. Esthetically, it would.

Anyway, as I said before, I'd like all parts to be just as they should be, including the nose covering the lower half of the gunsight as shown in your picture, if that's how it was.

Cheers,
S.

Kocur_
02-13-2006, 03:10 PM
I had that animation in mind http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif.

On gunsights:

Dont feel like starting "where-camera-was positioned" to take that photo discussion, but there and also in last frames of that video "P-47 killing Tigers" (BS btw) you can see how high, i.e much higher than in-game Razorback and Bubbletops respectively, gunsight was mounted. The same obviously in case of P-47 D10/22 - RL gunsigh is clearly mounted far higher than in game. Also it is clearly visible if you look close, that armoured glass refracts pic behind it. No I dont think RL frontal view of P-47D10/22 or Fw-190 was ever remotely as BAD as is in the game. Cocpits of those two planes are simply badly modelled, as far as RL pilots experience replication was target of this, supposedly SIMULATION.

DaimonSyrius
02-13-2006, 06:21 PM
Originally posted by Kocur_:
On gunsights:

RL gunsigh is clearly mounted far higher than in game.
.../...
No I dont think RL frontal view of P-47D10/22 or Fw-190 was ever remotely as BAD as is in the game.
.../...
as far as RL pilots experience replication

OK, let's go back to square one. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

I'm assuming that the razorback's picture you posted shows what the RL pilots experience of the frontal view was, according to you. Also, as you said, let's not get into the "where-camera-was positioned" issue.

On Gunsights:

The esthetical qualities of the P47 (all of them) cockpits in IL2 are... nil, they're UGLY. Besides, parts of the frames are in the wrong positions. I'm confident that we'll agree on that, and I'll state again that I wish it wouldn't be so ugly and that every single frame and bolt was just as it should be.

Now, about the functional aspects of using the frontal view and the reflector gunsight:
I asked, is the pilot's free (unobstructed) view really so very much different? Is the virtual gunsight so very much "OBVIOUSLY too low" that it will terribly impair the pilot's ability to track a target and aim at it?

Let's have a look at the gunsights again:

http://www.infonegocio.com/daimon/img/P47-razor-GS-comp.jpg

And now let's have a look at the real and virtual frontal views, superimposed and adjusted (quick&dirty) for size:

http://www.infonegocio.com/daimon/img/P47-razor-merged.jpg

Well... the P47 cockpit is ugly in IL2, but is this any big issue, other than esthetically?

IMO, it's not.

Cheers, S.

Treetop64
02-13-2006, 07:43 PM
This thread has become an excellent example in descibing the term "splitting hairs"...

http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Kocur_
02-14-2006, 11:46 AM
Originally posted by DaimonSyrius:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Kocur_:
On gunsights:

RL gunsigh is clearly mounted far higher than in game.
.../...
No I dont think RL frontal view of P-47D10/22 or Fw-190 was ever remotely as BAD as is in the game.
.../...
as far as RL pilots experience replication

OK, let's go back to square one. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

I'm assuming that the razorback's picture you posted shows what the RL pilots experience of the frontal view was, according to you. Also, as you said, let's not get into the "where-camera-was positioned" issue.

On Gunsights:

The esthetical qualities of the P47 (all of them) cockpits in IL2 are... nil, they're UGLY. Besides, parts of the frames are in the wrong positions. I'm confident that we'll agree on that, and I'll state again that I wish it wouldn't be so ugly and that every single frame and bolt was just as it should be.

Now, about the functional aspects of using the frontal view and the reflector gunsight:
I asked, is the pilot's free (unobstructed) view really so very much different? Is the virtual gunsight so very much "OBVIOUSLY too low" that it will terribly impair the pilot's ability to track a target and aim at it?

Let's have a look at the gunsights again:

http://www.infonegocio.com/daimon/img/P47-razor-GS-comp.jpg

And now let's have a look at the real and virtual frontal views, superimposed and adjusted (quick&dirty) for size:

http://www.infonegocio.com/daimon/img/P47-razor-merged.jpg

Well... the P47 cockpit is ugly in IL2, but is this any big issue, other than esthetically?

IMO, it's not.

Cheers, S. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

The difference is far beyound esthetics: take a look here (http://forums.ubi.com/eve/forums?a=tpc&s=400102&f=23110283&m=5351020214&r=5351020214#5351020214).