PDA

View Full Version : Why China...?



LeviathanWard
04-06-2019, 10:04 AM
Alright, I know that this is an old topic... ish... it's not something really discussed a lot. But why Name Drop China specifically when the rest of the For Honor world has a layer of separation from reality.

The Knights may speak Latin, but they're descended from The Empire directly, and they're Polytheistic rather than Christian or Catholic (Lore makes multiple references to 'Gods' being used). The Vikings may reference Valhalla and speak Icelandic, but Sweden, Norway, Finland, Iceland, none of those countries explicitly exist, even look like they still exist, and aren't referenced. Not even the Samurai actually name dropped Japan, they always referred to it as their Homeland. In fact the only thing that names Japan is when Runa says "I don't speak Japanese."

and then... the Wu Lin come out, and they're from China. Not like, The Dynastic Lands, or The Land of Dragons, or anything like that. But just straight up China which apparently survived The Cataclysm and has only really suffered from Desertification. We went for so long without getting really explicit tie-ins to reality and then... China... just... China. I have my qualms about name dropping China, but this post isn't about that.

It's more to just ask the Developers if I can. "Why name drop China?" instead of just referring to it by some other name that leaves it just barely out of direct connection to reality?

The_B0G_
04-06-2019, 10:38 AM
I remember hearing that some Chinese company bought this game or something to that extent, that is probably the reason, but realistically, we all know who the factions are based on, just because they don't come right out and say it doesn't really make that any different.

Look at Highlander, he has a kilt, his name is Highlander which is someone from the Scottish Highlands.

Many other names have ties to countries as well.

I do think the Wu Lin was a bad choice to make the new faction though. They are too similar to the Samurai faction cosmetic wise, I think we would have been much better off with a middle eastern style faction or an African/South American style faction, Egyptian and Aztec warriors would have been pretty awesome and would have brought a completely new look into the new faction, instead we got Samurai 2.0, which was disappointing.

Knight_Raime
04-06-2019, 10:50 AM
I remember hearing that some Chinese company bought this game or something to that extent, that is probably the reason, but realistically, we all know who the factions are based on, just because they don't come right out and say it doesn't really make that any different.

Look at Highlander, he has a kilt, his name is Highlander which is someone from the Scottish Highlands.

Many other names have ties to countries as well.

I do think the Wu Lin was a bad choice to make the new faction though. They are too similar to the Samurai faction cosmetic wise, I think we would have been much better off with a middle eastern style faction or an African/South American style faction, Egyptian and Aztec warriors would have been pretty awesome and would have brought a completely new look into the new faction, instead we got Samurai 2.0, which was disappointing.


Was proven in a many long paged thread that the % of shares said Chinese company owns doesn't give them majority rule on decisions made let alone any swinging power on choices for the game. If I had to guess the devs decided to go with Chinese as a faction because even though China and Japan share many things culture wise there is still a LOT that they don't share. And it would be interesting sort of bring those differences to light.

To say that they're too stylistically the same as Japanese is basically a statement born from ignorance. Sure, you could more easily see the differences with an African or Egyptian style faction. But that's less of a problem with the Chinese and more of a problem with most people being born culturally inept. Plus, i'm not some expert on this or anything, but I don't think there would be much of a hype for those kinds of factions. China is more "hype." So that probably was a factor.

LeviathanWard
04-06-2019, 11:05 AM
Let's please keep the discussion on topic. There are several dozen posts already about why it shouldn't have been a Chinese faction. This isn't going to be one of those posts.

Instead this is focusing on the topic of why China was name dropped directly. Because yes, The Knights look very European, a Centurion is a member of the Roman Legion, and a Highlander is pretty obviously Scottish to the point of speaking Gaelic rather than Icelandic despite being in the same faction as the Vikings.

However, these concepts are not inherently tied to the lands they came from IRL. For the best example, look at how many other mediums the concept of a Knight has been in, but just because they use the name "Knight" and even have feudalistic societies doesn't make every medium that has a Knight into Medieval Europe. Same thing for the Vikings and Samurai albeit far less common. The only real outlier here is that the Wu Lin directly refer to their homeland as China.

Which honestly kind of breaks the illusion that these factions didn't have to tie to their IRL source. After all there's more to the world of For Honor than just the heroes of the faction. The Myre is a geological anomaly with the fact that the terrain almost constantly shifts, leading to maps swiftly becoming outdated in a matter of months. In Samurai-Controlled areas, there are Giant Bald Cypress trees that rival and possibly exceed the height of Sequoias as they dwarf even Siege Towers (if you look out past The Shard while it's raining). Then there's Ashfeld which features active volcanoes and numerous geysers in manners that I don't really recall seeing IRL. The mountains of Valkenheim are straight out of fantasy novels.

It really does feel like it is its own world and then... China...

The_B0G_
04-06-2019, 12:28 PM
Was proven in a many long paged thread that the % of shares said Chinese company owns doesn't give them majority rule on decisions made let alone any swinging power on choices for the game. If I had to guess the devs decided to go with Chinese as a faction because even though China and Japan share many things culture wise there is still a LOT that they don't share. And it would be interesting sort of bring those differences to light.

To say that they're too stylistically the same as Japanese is basically a statement born from ignorance. Sure, you could more easily see the differences with an African or Egyptian style faction. But that's less of a problem with the Chinese and more of a problem with most people being born culturally inept. Plus, i'm not some expert on this or anything, but I don't think there would be much of a hype for those kinds of factions. China is more "hype." So that probably was a factor.

I never once said there weren't many cultural differences, just cosmetic, in-game they are similar in style, I'm pretty sure even the devs said as much on release of the nee faction if I remember correctly.

Look at the similarities between Vikings, Knights, and Samurai, they are vastly different than each other with completely different cosmetic styles, then you have Wu Lin, which are similar to Samurai in style, whether I'm "culturally inept" or "ignorant" has little to do with this, but thanks for the kind words.

I fail to see how there would be more hype over a Chinese faction than say a Persian faction, or Egyptian or Mayan faction, I'm not sure where you're getting that idea. I personally would much rather something different than Wu Lin, they could have released some Wu Lin with the Samurai faction as DLC heroes. It's not like the Scottish were friends with Viking raiders.

Knight_Raime
04-06-2019, 01:18 PM
I never once said there weren't many cultural differences, just cosmetic, in-game they are similar in style, I'm pretty sure even the devs said as much on release of the nee faction if I remember correctly.

Look at the similarities between Vikings, Knights, and Samurai, they are vastly different than each other with completely different cosmetic styles, then you have Wu Lin, which are similar to Samurai in style, whether I'm "culturally inept" or "ignorant" has little to do with this, but thanks for the kind words.

I fail to see how there would be more hype over a Chinese faction than say a Persian faction, or Egyptian or Mayan faction, I'm not sure where you're getting that idea. I personally would much rather something different than Wu Lin, they could have released some Wu Lin with the Samurai faction as DLC heroes. It's not like the Scottish were friends with Viking raiders.

I don't think they look close to similar in game nor do they really play similar to the Samurai. Your original statement I took to mean you were talking about both China and Japan wholistically. Which is why I slung culture ignorance as a statement. If you were purely referring to in game then that's my bad.

As far as my hype comment goes it's just my guess. I just can't think of many people being super exited to fight aztechs/egyptian as a faction simply because I think it would be a lot harder to stand them next to one of the other factions and have it feel like it "fits." I disagree on them able to be dlc heros for the Samurai. Maybe it's just because of what my current knowledge base is. But it seems more understanding to me to pair rome/knights together than to shove china and japan together. I don't think your example is entirely fair.

As we don't have a lot of information on viking combat techniques. So highlander can fit in easier since there is more wiggle room.

The_B0G_
04-06-2019, 02:36 PM
I don't think they look close to similar in game nor do they really play similar to the Samurai. Your original statement I took to mean you were talking about both China and Japan wholistically. Which is why I slung culture ignorance as a statement. If you were purely referring to in game then that's my bad.

As far as my hype comment goes it's just my guess. I just can't think of many people being super exited to fight aztechs/egyptian as a faction simply because I think it would be a lot harder to stand them next to one of the other factions and have it feel like it "fits." I disagree on them able to be dlc heros for the Samurai. Maybe it's just because of what my current knowledge base is. But it seems more understanding to me to pair rome/knights together than to shove china and japan together. I don't think your example is entirely fair.

As we don't have a lot of information on viking combat techniques. So highlander can fit in easier since there is more wiggle room.

Yes, I was purely talking about cosmetic wise, that's why I said, "They are too similar to the Samurai faction cosmetic wise" in my first post lol

I think Huns look quite different from the Samurai (Japenese), maybe it's just me but the Wu Lin seem to have a similar style, lot's of styled patterned cloth, mixed with light armor, tassels here and there, to me that is much more similar than heavy leather and animal pelts for Vikings, and plated steel armor for Knights.

I'm just looking for as much diversity in appearance as possible, I'm not trying to knock on China in saying they are similar to the Japanese as a whole. I think it would be a lot cooler getting some Jaguar warrior's or a High priest with a dagger or spear, a persian immortal would be awesome too. I just feel like the could have made a better pick for the new faction personally, that's all, something completely different than we have.

Vakris_One
04-06-2019, 02:42 PM
It really does feel like it is its own world and then... China...
I don't feel like it's that jarring personally. We still have yet to get the Wu Lin included into the Faction War so you never know what the devs will decide to create for their "homeland" and how that places it within the Cataclysm. For now they kinda just added 4 DLC heroes without a faction essentially with the only identifier accredited to them being that they come from where China is/was before the Cataclysm.

They did the same thing when they introduced Centurion, Highlander, Gladiator and Shaman. Even though these heroes were placed in the Knight and Viking factions respectively the developers outright stated that Centurion and Gladiator are Romans for example They come from an enclave that while absorbed by the Knights were still basically of the ancient Roman society that happened to continue on for much longer than our own real life Roman Empire. Similar was said about Highlander; he's a Scottish guy and he's a mercenary that fights for the Vikings as part of a deal/uneasy cooperation they have going. Shaman was never explicity stated what culture she comes from but it's not quite pure Viking, mostly that she's a forest dwelling hermit/witch doctor of sorts.


I never once said there weren't many cultural differences, just cosmetic, in-game they are similar in style, I'm pretty sure even the devs said as much on release of the nee faction if I remember correctly.

Look at the similarities between Vikings, Knights, and Samurai, they are vastly different than each other with completely different cosmetic styles, then you have Wu Lin, which are similar to Samurai in style, whether I'm "culturally inept" or "ignorant" has little to do with this, but thanks for the kind words.
Not really in my opinion. The Wu Lin have their own distinct look that is unique to them and doesn't have many similarities to the Samurai. They wear silk, whereas the Samurai wear cloth. They wear traditional medieval Chinese boots, capes and helmets whereas the Samurai mostly wear Japanese style sandles and Samurai era helmets. The Wu Lin have metal and iron armour that has the tell tale shapes and angles of medieval Chinese design whereas the Samurai have primarily wooden armour and (reletively recently added) lamellar armour that has the very distinct Japanese designs and looks.



I fail to see how there would be more hype over a Chinese faction than say a Persian faction, or Egyptian or Mayan faction, I'm not sure where you're getting that idea. I personally would much rather something different than Wu Lin, they could have released some Wu Lin with the Samurai faction as DLC heroes. It's not like the Scottish were friends with Viking raiders.
The Scottish and the Vikings don't have the kind of history Japan has with China. It would be like if you added Middle Eastern warriors and made them a part of the Knight faction or vice versa... You get the not so pretty picture.

From a western perspective I think there would have been equal amounts of hype for a Chinese, a Persian, an Egyptian, a Mayan, a Zulu, a Native American and etc factions. Even though we all know the biggest hype was for the Pirate faction :)

As the dev team have told us, when they add new heroes they make their decisions based on the weapons and fighting styles they want to add to the game. So it's logical to assume that they went with China as the weapons potential appealed most to them at the time.

The_B0G_
04-06-2019, 04:31 PM
Yeah I can see where you're coming from, to me they have a similar look, but obviously that's just my personal opinion, on console(I don't have the 4k version) there is no difference between silk and cloth, it all looks like cloth.

As far as Vikings and Scottish go though, they didn't have conflict for as long as the Japanese and Chinese, but murdering their men, raping their women and taking children as slaves... not a pretty picture lol and not a likely partnership either.

I was just sharing my view of it.

Personally I'd rather a Persian faction the most, I'm not a big fan of the Wu Lin combat style, I bought the expansion so I have them all, I just couldn't get into any of them, none are at rep 1 yet. They aren't gritty enough, too graceful.

LeviathanWard
04-06-2019, 08:53 PM
I don't feel like it's that jarring personally. We still have yet to get the Wu Lin included into the Faction War so you never know what the devs will decide to create for their "homeland" and how that places it within the Cataclysm. For now they kinda just added 4 DLC heroes without a faction essentially with the only identifier accredited to them being that they come from where China is/was before the Cataclysm.

Yeah, it's not the worst thing in the world. But we do already know a lot about what happened to China. For the most part it was basically unaffected by The Cataclysm from what we can tell, in that Society didn't break down and they still had their history as a nation. The only real issue that they started to face because of the Cataclysm was Desertification and even then it's not preventing China from being China. Oh they've also got a Civil War going on, but that's literally just the status quo for China.

Compare and contrast that to the Knights who we saw personally get messed up in the story trailer for the game, you know just rampant lightning storms, earthquakes that rent and reshaped basically all of Europe. And then there's Japan that got SO messed up that it became Atlantis: The Sequel as the Samurai lost their homeland "to Sea and Fire". Then there's The Great Empire which is what really throws all timeline guesses out the window as this means that if The Great Empire is exactly Rome, then Rome lasted centuries longer than it originally did.

There's layers and layers of semantics of how equivalent (or not) For Honor's world was to ours was before the Cataclysm. The only one that sticks out is China. I can at least feel safe in believing that if Ubisoft ever does further include China's role in the game that they'll handle it well. But it still is an outlier and one that I would like an answer to if it wouldn't trouble the Devs too much.

UbiInsulin
04-06-2019, 09:10 PM
The short answer is that the Wu Lin faction came to the game because the devs thought it would be cool. Western gamers are familiar with Romance of the Three Kingdoms and Wuxia films, and that includes our dev team.

Why we stuck to using the word China, I'm not sure. I still don't think it should be taken too literally. The concepts and the culture are more important than any exact history.

SangLong524
04-07-2019, 01:52 PM
i'm not from China, but from its neighbouring country and I'm cool with Wulin. Did they explicitly say China somewhere? I didn't even notice.
if they had used a more fabled name to call them, it would have been better. heck, they came up with a samurai faction called "the Dawn Empire" that screams JAPAN till it lost its voice. Is it somehow more difficult to come up with a name for these Chinese?
Personally, I don't see the problem. I'm glad and amazed that Ubisoft can draw out some inspiration from just everywhere, including their "asset". As long as it is good quality, i'm happy.

Sweaty_Sock
04-08-2019, 09:31 AM
China is historically a collective of different states... hence the three kingdoms etc... imagine if Napoleon held his empire - that'd be the equivalent to calling Europe 'France'.

Also given they don't have a part in the map it can also be seen as the ignorance of the locals (i.e. how many ignorant people call anyone asian chinese these days... or historically?)