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View Full Version : A Plea for a true Bf-109 G10/U4 3D-Model (rework)



RafiGer
09-11-2005, 11:39 PM
Dear Gentlemen,

as a historically related painter of authentic Luftwaffe Paintschemes it is always annoying and frustating to see the unneccessary glitches on not only the Bf-109 Models also on different allied planes.

I can imagine that there is enough work to do in completing other more important parts, but I have the hope that for my understanding easy to solve glitches could be over worked and released to an upcomming patch or a payed ADD-On to this Series!

I would like to point out that there is an easy solutionto resolve and to incorporate a true Bf-109G-10, especially Bf-109G-10/U4 to the game in changing the Wings of the now In Game Bf-109G-10 to the Wings of the Bf-109G-14 http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif This gives the Bf-109G-10 (could be called Bf-109G-10late) the correct historical look, meaning wide bulges on the wings and the short tailwheel.

From 20.12.1944 up to May 1945 1150 Bf-109G-10/U4 was build at WNF & DIANA (in between the W.k.Nr. Blocks 610... to 613...) Factories which was a substitute in order to overcome manufactoring problems related to the Bf-109K-4.
The Bf-109G-10/U4 sported the following design:

1. DB605D (DM, DB, DC) Engine
2. MW 50 Installation
3. Larger Wheels 660mm x 190 mm
4. Stremalined covers on wing'S top surface (as seen In Game on Bf-109G-14 and K-4)
5. Short Tail Wheel
6. Wooden Tail surface with model B or C rudder
7. Larger Flettner Flap partly on Model C rudder
8. Engine Mounted MK 108 cannon
9. Streamline transitions between engine cowling and fuselage (already with existing G-10)

It sound maybe rediculus to plea fort such kind of detail but it's a part to the completness of a not only game that's also counts for a simulation of the ancient War Birds during WW II http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Vike
09-13-2005, 02:18 AM
Interesting.

http://misc.kitreview.com/bookreviews/images/bf109g10u4reviewbg_sample.jpg

Some infos on this plane here. (http://misc.kitreview.com/bookreviews/bf109g10u4reviewbg_1.htm)

Bf109 is a fascinating machine as far as i can see http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif


It sound maybe rediculus to plea fort such kind of detail

Don't apologize,this kind of details can make History! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

@+

RafiGer
09-13-2005, 05:43 AM
Thanks Vike for understanding http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

BTW, there is a second book issued by JaPo which deals with the Bf-109 (G and K-models) used by JG 52 during their assignment in Deutsch Brod till the end of the War and in addition there are four more books also dealing with the Luftwaffe units in Czech Territory till May 1945!

I luckily owe all of them and can recommend each one of them truly without any doubt http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

HayateAce
09-13-2005, 06:17 AM
Spend this time on the Tempest please. We have more 109 variants than ANY other aircraft in the game.

Tempest please.

http://www.warbirdphotos.net/aviapix/Fighters/Tempest/dday-tempest.jpg

Willey
09-13-2005, 07:14 AM
I'd be just glad with proper 109s. That would also include separation of those MK 108 variants as well as C3+MW-50 machines.

VW-IceFire
09-13-2005, 04:50 PM
Originally posted by HayateAce:
Spend this time on the Tempest please. We have more 109 variants than ANY other aircraft in the game.

Tempest please.

http://www.warbirdphotos.net/aviapix/Fighters/Tempest/dday-tempest.jpg
As much as I love the Tempest, this thread has nothing to do with it a'tall in any way. Please don't drag that plane into this thread.

@RafiGer - I had no idea that the G-10 we have is different than what you are looking at. I don't understand exactly...but were there some like the one we have and some others like the one you're talking about?

Next question...did it have very different performance?

I somehow doubt that Oleg would do it...as there are visual modifications required to make it happen and I think they are way beyond that now. But interesting to note anyways.

RafiGer
09-13-2005, 11:45 PM
Thanks VW-IceFire http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Yes, the plane had a different performance related to the Bf-109 G-Series.

The Bf-109G-10 was a project of Erla Factory in Leipzig, in trying to satisfy the urgent demand for powerful competetive fighter aircrafts in mid 1944. Actually the DB605D engine was anticipated for the newly designed Bf-109K but unfoutunately the launching of the serial production was delayed by a vast number of constant delays, so it became obvious in summer 1944 that the Bf-109K production would not beginn as scheduled.

But as the DB605D was ready for operation and it could be installed in the existing Bf-109G airframe (at this time Bf-109G-6 with MW 50, later designated as Bf-109G-14). So, this leads ERLA to the conclusion to build the "Bastardflugzeug der Fertigung ERLA" Bf-109G-10. The wording "Bastard" is noted in internal documents released August 2, 1944 http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

ERLA was able to fulfill the task easily in applying minor changes to fit the DB605D eingine into the existing airframe and build the first Bf-109G-10 which was ready for service in September 1944.

The majority of the Bf-109G-10/U4 planes was assigned for manufactoring at WNF in Austria & DIANA near Tisnov, Bohemia.

The performance of the new G-10 was satisfing:

With DB605DM (DB)
Sondernotleistung + MW 50, 3,300 kg
n= 2,800 with 1,8atm
Speed: 0 meter = 560 km/h, 7500 meter = 690 km/h
Steigleistung bis 6000 Meter > 20 m/s

With DB605DC
Sondernotleistung - MW 50 3,400 kg
n= 2800 with 1,98 atm
Speed: 0 meter 575 km/h, 7500 meter = 695 km/h
Steigleistung bis 6000 Meter > 16 m/s

So, over all it is a interesting try to achive demanded powerful performance with a Bastard model suted for the demands of the fighter units during that time.

And the number of 1150 Bf-109G10/U4 build showed also that the plane take a vital role during the last months of the war despite the actual success http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Units which used the new type was I. and II./JG 3, I./JG 4, II./JG 51, I. and III./JG 52, I./JG 53, JG 76, I. and II./JG 77, RHAF 101, NAGr. 2 and 4 and of cause the ROA J.G.5 http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

JG52Karaya-X
09-14-2005, 08:19 AM
Sag mal Rafiger.. was mich etwas verwundert:

Why is the DB605DC equipped 109G10 heavier than the DB605DB equipped... both have 300l fuel plus the MW50 tank. Could it be that it is a really late 109G10 series model that is already fitted with the latest aerodynamic retrofitting kits that put it into K4 standard!? (such as retractable tail wheel, fully covered wheel wells, etc.)
But for that both the topspeed and climbrate would not be correct...

RafiGer
09-14-2005, 10:02 AM
@ JG52Karaya-X

Right now I don't now exactly why the Bf-109G-10/U4 with DB605DC is 100 kg more in weight than the Bf-109G-10 with the DB605DB. I thing it is because of the additional weight given by the armament with 2x MG 131 and the engine mounted MK 108 with 60 rounds of ammunition!

None of the Bf-109G-10 Model sported the Bf-109K aerodynamic retrofitting kits that is clearly stated on a wide range of photographs taken during early and Mid 1945. This enhancements was purely forseen and done only on the Bf-109K-4. Some of the Bf-109G-10/R6 sported the long tail wheel as seen on Bf-109G-14 models.

All photographs that showed Bf-109G-10 or G-10/U4 the only difference is the MK 108 cannon. The versions I refer to are the following:

1. Bf-109G-10 with DB605DB or DM engine
with 2x MG 131 and 1x MG 151, 20 mm

2. Bf-109G-10/U4 with DB605DC engine
with 2x MG 131 and 1x MK 108, 30 mm

3. Bf-109G-10/R6 with additional equipment for bad weather conditions and DB605DB or DM engine
with 2x MG 131 and 1x MG 151, 20 mm

All three versions was equiped with FuG 16ZY and ETC 500 IXb racks for Droptanks or JABO task for Bf-109/R6. All version could also be fitted with two MG 151 Fl├┬Ąchenr├╝sts├┬Ątzen!

Several sources despite my JAPO and other books stated that the Bf-109G-10 was the fastest of all Bf-109G Model and there was definetly no Bf-109G-10/AS it is actually the Bf-109G-10/U4 http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Abbuzze
09-14-2005, 12:09 PM
Originally posted by RafiGer:
@ JG52Karaya-X

Right now I don't now exactly why the Bf-109G-10/U4 with DB605DC is 100 kg more in weight than the Bf-109G-10 with the DB605DB. I thing it is because of the additional weight given by the armament with 2x MG 131 and the engine mounted MK 108 with 60 rounds of ammunition!

None of the Bf-109G-10 Model sported the Bf-109K aerodynamic retrofitting kits that is clearly stated on a wide range of photographs taken during early and Mid 1945. This enhancements was purely forseen and done only on the Bf-109K-4. Some of the Bf-109G-10/R6 sported the long tail wheel as seen on Bf-109G-14 models.

All photographs that showed Bf-109G-10 or G-10/U4 the only difference is the MK 108 cannon. The versions I refer to are the following:

1. Bf-109G-10 with DB605DB or DM engine
with 2x MG 131 and 1x MG 151, 20 mm

2. Bf-109G-10/U4 with DB605DC engine
with 2x MG 131 and 1x MK 108, 30 mm

3. Bf-109G-10/R6 with additional equipment for bad weather conditions and DB605DB or DM engine
with 2x MG 131 and 1x MG 151, 20 mm

All three versions was equiped with FuG 16ZY and ETC 500 IXb racks for Droptanks or JABO task for Bf-109/R6. All version could also be fitted with two MG 151 Fl├┬Ąchenr├╝sts├┬Ątzen!

Several sources despite my JAPO and other books stated that the Bf-109G-10 was the fastest of all Bf-109G Model and there was definetly no Bf-109G-10/AS it is actually the Bf-109G-10/U4 http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

At the end all late 109Ô┬┤s with MW50 had a weight of around +/-3350kg. So 3300 or 3400kg doesnt realy matter.
RafiGer, short question am I right that the 16m/s for the 1.98at├╝ DC engine are from a chart that say without MW50, so it was a 1.98at├╝ ready engine but didnÔ┬┤t used Sondernotleistung for this test? Can you confirm this?

RafiGer
09-14-2005, 11:01 PM
lo Abbuzze !

Of cause, your're totally right, 16 m/s are without using Sondernotleistung + MW 50 but with Startnotleistung http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif


Sondernotleistung [pl= 1,98 atm at n = 2,800 rpm]
Startnotleistung [pl= 1,8 atm at n = 2,800 rpm]


Originally posted by RafiGer:
With DB605DC
Sondernotleistung - MW 50 3,400 kg
n= 2800 with 1,98 atm
Speed: 0 meter 575 km/h, 7500 meter = 695 km/h
Steigleistung bis 6000 Meter > 16 m/s


The graph I refer to are from ERLA, Leipzig during Performance Test in September 1944 and confirmed by trails run at WNF in Wien Neustadt.
The figures stays in line with all other documents related to DB605DB, DB and DC I have in my hand or available at known Netsources http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

e.g.
http://w1.1861.telia.com/~u186104874/db605.htm

BelaLvgosi
09-15-2005, 01:19 AM
Btw, on a cheap 1/72 die cast model of a "bf109g-10 stab iv/jg 4, november 44', white 21 Haupt. Franz Wienhusen" I have, the wing bulges are also like ingame's k4 so as the tailweel seems short too.
Hah, some pic of the same model included in that 9Ô"ÜČ http://www.serafimov.com/public/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?t=...fd6f64c0b643fafa157c (http://www.serafimov.com/public/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?t=457&view=next&sid=79ec6384e7e8fd6f64c0b643fafa157c) "every two weeks collection". (I opted for wheels on wings retracted)

Abbuzze
09-16-2005, 03:53 AM
Originally posted by RafiGer:
lo Abbuzze !

Of cause, your're totally right, 16 m/s are without using Sondernotleistung + MW 50 but with Startnotleistung http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif


Sondernotleistung [pl= 1,98 atm at n = 2,800 rpm]
Startnotleistung [pl= 1,8 atm at n = 2,800 rpm]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by RafiGer:
With DB605DC
Sondernotleistung - MW 50 3,400 kg
n= 2800 with 1,98 atm
Speed: 0 meter 575 km/h, 7500 meter = 695 km/h
Steigleistung bis 6000 Meter > 16 m/s


The graph I refer to are from ERLA, Leipzig during Performance Test in September 1944 and confirmed by trails run at WNF in Wien Neustadt.
The figures stays in line with all other documents related to DB605DB, DB and DC I have in my hand or available at known Netsources http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

e.g.
http://w1.1861.telia.com/~u186104874/db605.htm </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Edit: Had a wrong idea, sorry, but got another one! Thinking about the lack of MW50 use.

MW50 was used as a very effective intercooler,
so if you not use it, the cylinder charging is worse, because of the hotter air out of the supercharger, this means that an engine with this settings would perform worse than a "clean" 1.8at├╝+MW50 engine... poweroutput of this unusuall setting would be interesting (1.8at├╝ without MW50).


RafiGer Would you be so friendly and post or send me this report, I deleted it by mistake from my HD some time ago... http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

Kurfurst__
09-17-2005, 04:27 AM
Rafiger,

could you please contact me at kurfurst@atw.hu ?

OrkaJG52
09-17-2005, 12:22 PM
Nice doc-work Rafige, just one question:

And the number of 1150 Bf-109G10/U4 build

My numbers on G10/U4 r way more less than yours, afaik only 356 Neubau (from January to March 1945) were built on WFN. Maybe a couple of hundred more if counting 1944* production, but lack on info rightnow (if there is a Umbau list anywhere, will be great for me to give a sight for a while).
I think you r mixinÔ┬┤ data from G6-G14/U4 someway.

regards
Ballenato.

* 12/1944

anarchy52
09-19-2005, 08:41 AM
Originally posted by HayateAce:
Spend this time on the Tempest please. We have more 109 variants than ANY other aircraft in the game.



Actually that is a misinformation. The aircraft with most variants in the game is spitfire. Open the QMB and count.

jagdmailer
10-03-2005, 10:34 AM
BUMP

Jagd

Vipez-
10-04-2005, 01:46 PM
I think there is even more Yak-variants than 109s.. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

(atleast in 4.02 anyway..)

LEXX_Luthor
10-04-2005, 07:09 PM
Yes...Yaks have the most numerous subvariants I believe.

Still, the last thing we need are more Yaks and more 1944 "Hollywood" Bf-109 variants. We need Femail with GM-1 and early Doras, but Oleg is probably reserving stuff like that for BoB And Beyond and Polish Addon Pac, especially Email-3.

jagdmailer
10-04-2005, 08:01 PM
Yes, but once you have tried an F-4 or even an F-2, the Emil feels sooooo slow....

I personally prefers the late 1941 to mid 1944 planeset and it seems this is where I get the most exciting flying. (all off-line of course)

Bf 109G-6/U2 or G-5/U2 with GM-1 circa november 1943 would be great. Same with Bf 109G-6/U2 or G-5/U2 "field mod" MW-50 circa Feb-March 1944 & a real "high-altitude" motor (without MW-50) Bf 109G-6/AS or even G-5/AS circa January 1944 for that matter.

My only use for the Emil is for the odd jabo mission.

I guess I am not going to enjoy BoB really all that much and anything earlier even less I am afraid. Will have to wait until the Med/North Africa to get excited again.

Jagd



Originally posted by LEXX_Luthor:
Yes...Yaks have the most numerous subvariants I believe.

Still, the last thing we need are more Yaks and more 1944 "Hollywood" Bf-109 variants. We need Femail with GM-1 and early Doras, but Oleg is probably reserving stuff like that for BoB And Beyond and Polish Addon Pac, especially Email-3.