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View Full Version : How unreactable openers should be designed



Liduras
04-03-2019, 09:16 PM
Bash/GB only spammable mixups shouldn't exist. They indirectly remove a lot of game mechanics. There are a lot of ways to counter attack or just defend: block, dodge, parry, deflect, crushing counter, GB, counter GB, exchanging with hyper armor,... But against bash spammers (Warden, Conqueror, BP,...etc.), most of them don't exist.


Before explaining how an opener should be, i want to give some examples of good designed unreactable openers:

1) Kensei's top heavy finisher is probably the most well designed move in the game. It has so many possiblities. His 50/50 opener does not deal enough damage by itself, therefore he is forced to use his well designed top heavy finisher after it.

2) Berserker's mixup is a very good opener with a lot of possiblities. It may be a little annoying as it is a little OP, but it can be countered with so many differeny ways, unlike with bash/GB only mixups.

3) Shaman's forward/backward dash mixup into left heavy finisher mixup is a good one (for the same reason for why Kensei's mixup is very good).

4) Although it is not that good designed, Gladiators zone is much better designed than bash/GB only mixups with low stamina costs. It takes half of his stamina, therefore it can not be spammed against aggrassive oppenents and is only an anti turtle move.


The best way to make openers is making strong finishers with variety (like Kensei's top heavy finisher and Shaman's left heavy finisher) and combining them with safe or unreactable ways to access finishers.


Here are some safe or unreactable move ideas to access to chain finishers (without bashes):

A chargeable heavy like Centurion's and Shugoki's heavy.
A new unparryable but blockable heavy attack (trying to parry should stop the chain without a punish just like blocking a light attack).
A superior light opener that has similar animations with heavy attack animations.
A soft feint into 400 ms superior light attack (400 ms from only one direction for balance).

Knight_Raime
04-03-2019, 11:37 PM
Kensei's pommel mix up is bad. You can stuff the mix up with a light attack or zone option select on reaction. The only way Kensei can beat this is if he dodges out of said heavy start up to use instant superior block to net him a GB. And this only works from a top attack. If the opponent zone option selects instead you might be able to block the attack but kensei gets no punish. It's also not a great mix up because what follows after is not good mid combo pressure. In other words the only time this mix up is actually good is if your opponent is near OOS or is OOS. Otherwise it's just semi reliable chip damage.

Shaman's only dash mix up that's good involves flickering the unblockable indicator. Without it anything she does is reactable. And her unblockable side heavy finisher mix up is poor because unless she hitstuns you you can just back dash to avoid her attacks or feint into GB.

Warden's bash mix up can be beaten by correct prediction with dodges, GB's, or attacking him out of it. It's actually one of the best well designed mix ups in the game. As both players have to make reads.

FlyinBeef
04-04-2019, 02:41 PM
Kensei's pommel mix up is bad. You can stuff the mix up with a light attack or zone option select on reaction. The only way Kensei can beat this is if he dodges out of said heavy start up to use instant superior block to net him a GB. And this only works from a top attack. If the opponent zone option selects instead you might be able to block the attack but kensei gets no punish. It's also not a great mix up because what follows after is not good mid combo pressure. In other words the only time this mix up is actually good is if your opponent is near OOS or is OOS. Otherwise it's just semi reliable chip damage.

Shaman's only dash mix up that's good involves flickering the unblockable indicator. Without it anything she does is reactable. And her unblockable side heavy finisher mix up is poor because unless she hitstuns you you can just back dash to avoid her attacks or feint into GB.

Warden's bash mix up can be beaten by correct prediction with dodges, GB's, or attacking him out of it. It's actually one of the best well designed mix ups in the game. As both players have to make reads.

Kensei have bad opener, but idea is good, he just need buff, faster top heavy with 300ms lights to make guaranteed light even if it wasn't buffered then the opener will be very great.

Shaman is good even without unblock flickering, because this indicator is 400ms, it is unreactable even on high level, people who trying dodge on indicator just getting hit, the main problem of headbutt it is weak continuation and low damage, if double light was 24dmg, unblockable 45dmg and heavy 35dmg then it will be good opener with decent chain after.

rottmeister
04-04-2019, 06:33 PM
Kensei have bad opener, but idea is good, he just need buff, faster top heavy with 300ms lights to make guaranteed light even if it wasn't buffered then the opener will be very great.

Shaman is good even without unblock flickering, because this indicator is 400ms, it is unreactable even on high level, people who trying dodge on indicator just getting hit, the main problem of headbutt it is weak continuation and low damage, if double light was 24dmg, unblockable 45dmg and heavy 35dmg then it will be good opener with decent chain after.

Not sure if I understand your first paragraph. Could you elaborate what you mean with those 300ms lights? Are those from neutral, a softfeint or...? Honestly, I nearly fell out of my chair when I saw a suggestion to introduce 300ms lights. that's actually insane. Both Orochi and Nuxia possess over 400ms lights and boi do they get complained about a lot. If 300ms lights or bashes or anything get introduced they either should deal very minimal damage or stagger an opponent to not allow them to immediately parry/dodge a follow up attack. Giving heroes 300ms lights from neutral would destroy the game. I get that you're discussing unreactable openers, but let's not make this game into a spam fest.

Balance isn't achieved by making everything faster

I also disagree with your suggestion to make light attacks do more damage. 24 damage for 1 light + 1 confirmed light is way too much, making Shaman's UB heavy do 45 is also too much considering it's so easy to get to her UB mind game: it's her 2nd non confirmed hit that comes from her left.
If she manages to hit her double lights + UB heavy that's already 69 damage, not counting her bleed chain finisher and the pressure she gets because you could get bit for 50 damage.
Not sure how much her poke does, but let's say it does 10 damage, then she'd have hit you for 79 damage, add the 50 damage of her bite on top and you're dead if you're playing a hero with less than 129 health which is ALL assassin's and probably some vanguards.

Liduras
04-04-2019, 06:59 PM
Kensei's pommel mix up is bad. You can stuff the mix up with a light attack or zone option select on reaction. The only way Kensei can beat this is if he dodges out of said heavy start up to use instant superior block to net him a GB. And this only works from a top attack. If the opponent zone option selects instead you might be able to block the attack but kensei gets no punish. It's also not a great mix up because what follows after is not good mid combo pressure. In other words the only time this mix up is actually good is if your opponent is near OOS or is OOS. Otherwise it's just semi reliable chip damage.

Shaman's only dash mix up that's good involves flickering the unblockable indicator. Without it anything she does is reactable. And her unblockable side heavy finisher mix up is poor because unless she hitstuns you you can just back dash to avoid her attacks or feint into GB.

Warden's bash mix up can be beaten by correct prediction with dodges, GB's, or attacking him out of it. It's actually one of the best well designed mix ups in the game. As both players have to make reads.

While nothing you wrote is actually wrong, that is not the point i made. The point is, bash and GB only mixups do not allow most of the game mechanics.

Yes, Kensei's pommel mixup into top heavy finisher is weak, but it is not what i am trying to discuss here. It's base mechanics are well designed because it allows the receiving player to use various type of moves like deflect, block, parry, crushing counter, GB, dodge,...etc. It can be balanced without changing the base mechanics by simply making it faster (or changing some other numbers). Btw, his midchain has almost no effect, as Kensei can skip midchain and throw his finisher after GB, pommel strike and dash attacks.

Shaman is also same. Her base mechanics are well designed and she can be balanced by changing a few numbers. Btw, Shaman's bash is 400 ms at close range and it makes it totally unreactable. She only needs a little buff on her finisher mixup.

Warden is bad designed not because he is OP or UP, but because a lot of type of moves are impossible to use against him. When a Warden player decides to use only SB, you can not use various type of moves like block, parry, deflect, crushing counter, hyperarmor,... Forcing both players to make reads with a mixup is necessary, but that mixup should make more type of moves possible.

Baggin_
04-04-2019, 07:08 PM
Kensei's pommel mix up is bad. You can stuff the mix up with a light attack or zone option select on reaction. The only way Kensei can beat this is if he dodges out of said heavy start up to use instant superior block to net him a GB. And this only works from a top attack. If the opponent zone option selects instead you might be able to block the attack but kensei gets no punish. It's also not a great mix up because what follows after is not good mid combo pressure. In other words the only time this mix up is actually good is if your opponent is near OOS or is OOS. Otherwise it's just semi reliable chip damage.

Shaman's only dash mix up that's good involves flickering the unblockable indicator. Without it anything she does is reactable. And her unblockable side heavy finisher mix up is poor because unless she hitstuns you you can just back dash to avoid her attacks or feint into GB.

Warden's bash mix up can be beaten by correct prediction with dodges, GB's, or attacking him out of it. It's actually one of the best well designed mix ups in the game. As both players have to make reads.

I usually agree with what you say, but in no way is Wardens shoulder bash well designed.

Knight_Raime
04-04-2019, 08:41 PM
While nothing you wrote is actually wrong, that is not the point i made. The point is, bash and GB only mixups do not allow most of the game mechanics.

Yes, Kensei's pommel mixup into top heavy finisher is weak, but it is not what i am trying to discuss here. It's base mechanics are well designed because it allows the receiving player to use various type of moves like deflect, block, parry, crushing counter, GB, dodge,...etc. It can be balanced without changing the base mechanics by simply making it faster (or changing some other numbers). Btw, his midchain has almost no effect, as Kensei can skip midchain and throw his finisher after GB, pommel strike and dash attacks.

Shaman is also same. Her base mechanics are well designed and she can be balanced by changing a few numbers. Btw, Shaman's bash is 400 ms at close range and it makes it totally unreactable. She only needs a little buff on her finisher mixup.

Warden is bad designed not because he is OP or UP, but because a lot of type of moves are impossible to use against him. When a Warden player decides to use only SB, you can not use various type of moves like block, parry, deflect, crushing counter, hyperarmor,... Forcing both players to make reads with a mixup is necessary, but that mixup should make more type of moves possible.


Ah. I guess I see what you mean now. First sentence in that last bit clears it up for me. I guess I can see why you like said mix ups then.
However i'm going to say that I don't think all mix ups should be that way. As it would theoretically put more emphasis on blocking/parrying as a way to deter someone's offense.
and the game already does that quite a bit. We need both types of offense in the game imho.


I usually agree with what you say, but in no way is Wardens shoulder bash well designed.

I'll rephrase. I prefer the way warden's bash mix up is designed compared to most mix ups in the game.
This is because 2 good players (in theory,) enter a true mind game when using it. Warden is the initiator and that is some what of an advantage. But it's not an insurmountable one. The opponent has various methods to deal with it. Both universally and character specific. The Warden is always at risk for using it.

I will admit that the "beauty" of it's design doesn't particularly shine in average play. As those players do not have the game knowledge or muscle memory that would make this be a thing. It's very much something that only above average and higher players can really take advantage of. Below that it's just oppressive even with it's downsides. Which is why i've always advocated for changing the reward on the full charged bash to be a side heavy instead of a top heavy. It would force Warden to land an extra full charged bash to kill most heros. Which should give players more time to some how deal with it. And it wouldn't tank it's viability in high tier in the slightest since full charge bash rarely lands at that level of play. And he could still technically get access to a 40 damage punish via feint into GB into wall splat. So his punish game isn't hurt either.

Bloodwake1980
04-05-2019, 06:24 AM
(Sb into a double over top light total 30 damage. And since they are staggered and can't do anything sure let's do it again oh but I'll do double heavy this time for another 80 points since they are staggered. Oh that's a instant win for me I had no idea. I must be the best warden ever.) It's these types of attacks that are extremely annoying and get so over used. And you can try and dodge but depending on the distance between you it will automatically track.

It's also these exact combos that doesn't make a new player develop any real skills. This leaves them spamming the exact same thing all day. In my opinion every character should lose their charging gb. That would make them Lear.