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EiZ0N
07-06-2005, 06:20 PM
Hi there

I love flying Spitfires (probably because I'm British), but there are so many versions, and I don't really know the differences between them.

1) Seafire L.Mk.III, 1943
2) Seafire F.Mk.III, 1943
3) Spitfire Mk.Vb, 1941
4) Spitfire Mk.Vb (CW), 1943
5) Spitfire L.F.Mk.Vb, 1942
6) Spitfire L.F.Mk.Vb (CW)
7) Spitfire Mk.Vc(2), 1941
8) Spitfire Mk.Vc(4), 1941
9) Spitfire Mk.VIII, 1943
10) Spitfire Mk.VIII (CW)
11) Spitfire Mk.IXc, 1943
12) Spitfire L.F.Mk.IXc (CW)
13) Spitfire Mk.IXe, 1944
14) Spitfire L.F.Mk.IXe (CW)
15) Spitfire H.F.Mk.IXe 1944

I don't expect anyone to go through all 15 of them and tell me the difference (although that would be interesting).

However, for example, could someone please explain what performance changes a CW plane has (I know it has the chopped wingtips, but what does that mean for the flight model?).

What is L.F. and H.F. and what do those letters stand for?

Thanks

p1ngu666
07-06-2005, 06:24 PM
clipped wing gives extra roll rate, slightly faster at low alt, slower at high alt.

LF means low altitude, but with the IX and VIII it doesnt really matter

HF means high altitude

IX and VIII give decent performance at any alt, the seafire and V series dont.
the L ones of those are ok down low but useless up high
the normal ones are are poor at all alts really (slowwer than irl http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif )

EiZ0N
07-06-2005, 06:36 PM
Thanks very much.

All this time I avoided the CW spits, because for some reason I thought there must be some disadvantage to them as other people didn't seem to fly them http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

So with IX it's best to choose the CW, and it doesn't matter that they're low altitude?

Is there any particular reason why it doesn't really matter with IX and VIII models if they are LF?

Cheers

JG53Frankyboy
07-06-2005, 07:19 PM
1) Seafire L.Mk.III, 1943
- low level plane, usefull till 3000m
2) Seafire F.Mk.III, 1943
- normal altitude rated engine

3) Spitfire Mk.Vb, 1941
& 4) Spitfire Mk.Vb (CW), 1943
- normal altitude engine

5) Spitfire L.F.Mk.Vb, 1942
&6) Spitfire L.F.Mk.Vb (CW)
-low level plane, usefull till 3000m

7) Spitfire Mk.Vc(2), 1941
&8) Spitfire Mk.Vc(4), 1941
- normal altitude engine , little bit slower than Vb because of dustfilter , 120rpg in Canons instead of 60 like Vb

9) Spitfire Mk.VIII, 1943
&10) Spitfire Mk.VIII (CW)
- normal altitude engine, was used in MTO and CBI . should manouver little bit better than Mk.IX

11) Spitfire Mk.IXc, 1943
12) Spitfire L.F.Mk.IXc (CW)
13) Spitfire Mk.IXe, 1944
14) Spitfire L.F.Mk.IXe (CW)
-all these are LF planes , but that does not mean they are only low level limited like the LF.Vb . they are used for normal altitude.
c has 120rpg in canons and 4 .303cal lMGs .
e has 140rpg and 2 .50cal MGs

15) Spitfire H.F.Mk.IXe 1944
-high altitude rated engine

Bearcat99
07-06-2005, 07:59 PM
Wow...... think about it.. this sim went from having no Spits.. to 15 of em.... ya gotta love it...

ImpStarDuece
07-06-2005, 08:01 PM
The problem with spitfires is the absolutley confusing wealth of engine, boost and wing type changes that occured. Not only did these switch between marks like the V, VIII and IX, but they also switched while in the same mark. Hence during its operational life the Spitifre V had over 1100 modifications made to it. It operated with the Merlin 40, 45,46,50,50M, 55 and 55M at 9, 12, 16 and 18 lbs boost levels, as well as a few other engines outside of regular squadron service . The V also flew with the A type wing (8 Browing MMGs with 350 rpg), B type wing (2 Hispanos w/ 60 RPG and 4 Brownings w 350 RPG) and the 'universal' C type wing which could fit 2 or 4 cannon with 120 rpg or 2 cannon and 4 mgs.

It would take me hours to nail down all the differences between the various marks and I don't have the game at work to run any tests. Try IL2 compare for a good visual reference or google "Spitifre Performance testing" for Mike Williams very good site which has many of the official RAF test documents for the vrious marks. Just dont get sucked into his Spitfire vs 109 rhetoric, it tends to get bandied about a little unhealthily here.


Spitfire Vb 1942;

Basic Spitfire type. Medium to high altitude fighter and interceptor.

Engine; Merlin 45/46 (only difference is in the carburettor)
Maximum boost; +9lbs at 3000 rpm
Wing type; b
Armament; 2x Hispano Mk II 20mm w/ 60rpg
4x Browning .303 w/ 350rpg
Speed at altitude; 369-375 mph at 20, 000-22,000 feet(approx)
Speed at sea level; 295-305 mph (approx)
Peak rate of roll; 100-110 deg/sec @ 220-235 mph.
Rate of climb; 2900-3250 feet/sec to 20,000 feet (approx)

For clipped wing variant add these changes;
1) increase of approx 35-40 degrees/sec in rate of roll at all speeds.
2) Increase of 5-8 mph at altitudes below 10,000 feet
3) Increase in stalling speed by 5-10 mph
4) Slight increase in turn radius
5) Slightly improved energy retention in turns
6) Decreased rate of sustained climb, particularly above 12-14,000 feet.

Spitfire L.F. Vb 1942

Generally as above, performance, airframe and specs modified in the following areas;

Engine; Merlin 45/46/50 or 55M
Maximum boost +16lbs at 3000 rpm (45/46/5050)
+18lbs at 3000rpm (50M).
Speed at sea level; 325-335 mph 45/46/50
330-335 mph 50M
Speed at alt; 345 mph at 6000 feet (45/46/50)
350-55 mph at 6000 feet (50M)
Speed at alt 2; 340 mph at 13,000 feet (45/46/50)
370 mph at 13,000 feet (50M)
Rate of climb; 3000-3300 (45/46/50)
3600-3750 (50M) below 13,000 feet.

The MkVc used a strengthened and improved airframe and was the first type to mount the 'c' wing. The MkVc we have in the game is the full tropicalised version with the large and distinctive Volkes or 'beard' filter mounted under the nose. This was actually quite short lived as it cut between 7 and 10% off the performance of the Spitfire V in climb and level speed, mostly due to the decreased 'ram' effect of airflow into the supercharger. By 1943 most Tropicalised spitfires had been refitted with the 'Aboukir' filter, which was developed by 113 MU in 1941 to improve perfromance of tropicalised spitfires.


These are just the real world statistics I have on hand to give you an example of the differences. And these are by no means exhaustive. In April 1943 RAF Boscombe Down took a standard Merlin 46 engined Mk V out of storage and got it to do 388mph at 20,000 feet. The two primary changes were replacement of the fishtail type exhausts with multi-ejector stubs and removing the carburettor ice-guard (which was generally standard practice in Spitfire squadrons anyway) as well as cleaning up the airframe and polishing the wing leading edge. Originally when first flown straight out of storage it only did 357mph at the same height.

The Spitfire IX and VIII in the game run the Merlin 66 at +18lbs boost. Generally the IX is a marginally better performer at low altitude (Rate of climb, better rate of roll) while the XIII has a stronger airframe, should handle the torque better (different reduction gearing ratios), dives better and retains energy slightly better.

RNZAFJay
07-06-2005, 08:01 PM
I think while clipped winged Spits have better roll, normal ones turn better. Also clipped wings perform badly above 15,000 feet (Though maybe all merlin engined Spits are not that great at high altitude).

I also I believe while performance is lacking Mk V's turn a little better than Mk IX's.

My impression of early Spits are that, like the Zero, they are pure dogfighters. As they got better in performance and heavier, their agility decreased (but still good campared to teh competion) but they could compete against BnZ craft (like the FW 190). In fact Ive read many times that the Mk IX was a direct counter to the FW190.

I could be wrong, Im just a newbie. Feel free to correct me if my facts arent straight.

p1ngu666
07-06-2005, 08:24 PM
well, spit was one of the best high alt interceptors throughout the war, its that or teh 109, combining climb, speed and firepower.

apart from the LF vb, and mark 12 (XII) (not ingame) they all where good at altitude.

the IX was a quickfix to counter the fw190, a engine designed for a ultrahigh alt bomber was slipped in. main difference was the 2 stage, 2 speed supercharger. also a bunch of tiding up of the induction system by a guy called stanley ******.
with the new supercharger, performance at all altitudes was improved, especialy up high, i think something like 400hp above what old engine gave at some altitude, but i cant remmber.

and the spitfire can mix it up in any style of fight well, bnz or turn it was good, thats why teh luftwaffe hate it so much http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

Eizon, my favourite was the VIII in 3.x but i havent really flown much in 4.01.

with the CW its a matter of taste, personaly i prefer full wings, as it feels smoother http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

btw the same merlin in the IX and VIII is found in the mustang http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

VW-IceFire
07-06-2005, 09:30 PM
Originally posted by EiZ0N:
Hi there

I love flying Spitfires (probably because I'm British), but there are so many versions, and I don't really know the differences between them.

1) Seafire L.Mk.III, 1943
2) Seafire F.Mk.III, 1943
3) Spitfire Mk.Vb, 1941
4) Spitfire Mk.Vb (CW), 1943
5) Spitfire L.F.Mk.Vb, 1942
6) Spitfire L.F.Mk.Vb (CW)
7) Spitfire Mk.Vc(2), 1941
8) Spitfire Mk.Vc(4), 1941
9) Spitfire Mk.VIII, 1943
10) Spitfire Mk.VIII (CW)
11) Spitfire Mk.IXc, 1943
12) Spitfire L.F.Mk.IXc (CW)
13) Spitfire Mk.IXe, 1944
14) Spitfire L.F.Mk.IXe (CW)
15) Spitfire H.F.Mk.IXe 1944

I don't expect anyone to go through all 15 of them and tell me the difference (although that would be interesting).

However, for example, could someone please explain what performance changes a CW plane has (I know it has the chopped wingtips, but what does that mean for the flight model?).

What is L.F. and H.F. and what do those letters stand for?

Thanks
I will because I'm a Spitfire affictionado.

1) Seafire L.Mk.III, 1943 - Seafire III, basically a revised version of the Mark V with C type armament, and arrestor gear for carrier landings. L means low altitude performance (best power lower than 3000m)
2) Seafire F.Mk.III, 1943 - Same as the above except with performance maxing out around 6000m.
3) Spitfire Mk.Vb, 1941 - Upgrade of the Mark II with more powerful engine and cannons. B type armament with 60 rounds (very short duration)
4) Spitfire Mk.Vb (CW), 1943 - Same with clipped wings (better low alt speed and better roll for reduced climb)
5) Spitfire L.F.Mk.Vb, 1942 - Cropped supercharger for better low altitude performance. Considered a successful stopgap measure to make the Mark V more competitive with FW190s during their low alt hit and run raids in 1941 and 1942.
6) Spitfire L.F.Mk.Vb (CW) - Same as above. Clipped wings.
7) Spitfire Mk.Vc(2), 1941 - Mark V sent to the Pacific with 2 cannon C type armament (120 rounds of cannon). Performance reducing tropical air filter fitted.
8) Spitfire Mk.Vc(4), 1941 - Rare version of the Mark V sent to Malta for that islands defense, 4 cannon armament, usually stripped in the field down to 2 cannons (no machine guns)
9) Spitfire Mk.VIII, 1943 - Redesigned version based on experience with the Mark IV, VI, and VII. Used by the Australians and the RAF in Burma, Italy, and elsewhere. Not common in the European theater. The Mark VIII is actually a later development than the IX and is currently the superior Spitfire design available to us. Later versions of the Spitfire like the XIV and XVIII were based on the VIII initially.
10) Spitfire Mk.VIII (CW) - Clipped wing.
11) Spitfire Mk.IXc, 1943 - Actually a LF IXc with C type armament (2 cannons with 120 rounds and 4 machine guns). Engine is optimized for lower altitude performance over the F.IX but this infact makes it superb over most altitude ranges between 7000m and under. Even above its quite good.
12) Spitfire L.F.Mk.IXc (CW) - LF.IX with clipped wings (LF does not indicate clipped wings, it indicates engine type)
13) Spitfire Mk.IXe, 1944 - LF.IXe with E type armament (2 cannons and 2 heavy machineguns). Otherwise identical to earlie IX versions.
14) Spitfire L.F.Mk.IXe (CW) - Same with clipped wings.
15) Spitfire H.F.Mk.IXe 1944 - Specialized (and rare) high altitude IX model using the Merlin 70 engine which is the same as the Merlin 66 used in the LF.IX models except that instead of being optimized for lower altitude performance, this engine is optimized and gives best speed and power ratings above 7000m. Externally identical to an LF.IXe, the only difference is in the engines supercharger gear ratio. The HF model has reduced performance compared to the LF.IX models below 7000m.


That covers them. If you have questions ask please http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

The Spitfire is often confusing and there are many exceptions to any rule regarding it. A long and fascinating development history and many confusing designations are scattered about.

The ultimate version that we have right now is the Mark VIII (which is an LF.VIII actually with a Merlin 66). In the future, you may see the XIV which is a VIII with the more powerful Griffon engine and extended rudder (and otherwise the same).

Although there are 15 models of the Spitfire in game, most of them are externally identical, varry only by weapon configuration, or varry by wing configuration (clipped or non clipped). The actual numbers of distinctly different versions is much lower.

For LF and HF as described, the LF = Low Fighter and the HF = High Fighter. The game is somewhat incorrect in that the IXe and IXc are infact LF.IXe and LF.IXc (even the non clipped ones) as the LF refers to engine type.

Clear as mud? Good http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

RNZAFJay
07-06-2005, 10:05 PM
Ok, I have a question. Im generally of the impression that a Mk V has three prop blades and a Mk IX has four.

The Seafire is a Mk III and has four blades. Is it a converted Mk V, Mk IX or something else entirely?

ImpStarDuece
07-06-2005, 10:19 PM
The Seafire III is based on the MK Vc type airframe.

The C type airframe was strenghtened over the B type airframe and made it more suitable to higher power and torque engines.

This is just a guess but id say that the 4 bladed prop was probably better able to absorb the power of the Merlin 50 and 55m that went into the front end of the Seafire. The Spitifre IX made the change to a 4 bladed prop when the engine power started to exceed 1600 hp. With the Merlin 55M delivering close to 1650 hp at 10,000 feet maybe that prompted the switch?

VW-IceFire
07-06-2005, 10:33 PM
Originally posted by RNZAFJay:
Ok, I have a question. Im generally of the impression that a Mk V has three prop blades and a Mk IX has four.

The Seafire is a Mk III and has four blades. Is it a converted Mk V, Mk IX or something else entirely?
Seafire III has more changes than I know about but the engine was tuned to some extent, the exhuast stacks rearranged, and yes its got a 4 blade propeller. Maybe they decided that the four blades added some extra performance that they weren't able to get from earlier Mark V models.

Its performance was not IX level...but it was good.

p1ngu666
07-07-2005, 07:00 AM
bit of a parts bin special http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

EiZ0N
07-07-2005, 08:41 AM
Wow, so much information.

I'm still swimming through all the info, but thanks everyone, I now have a rough idea which plane to choose http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Again, thanks.

Platypus_1.JaVA
07-08-2005, 11:59 AM
Originally posted by Bearcat99:
Wow...... think about it.. this sim went from having no Spits.. to 15 of em.... ya gotta love it...

Of course it is great but, people who are not that knowledgable about WWII aviation are overwhelmed with all the diffrent planes you can fly. It is getting rather confusing. Some people who are with this sim from the beginning, knew the time that there where not so many aircraft in this sim and they learned their new ones with every new patch. But, I have several friends who tried the whole package (FB gold, PF and all the patches) and simply quit because it was a bit overwhelming.

I look forward to BoB really. It seems to be lesser aircraft and more detail.