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Goat_of_Vermund
04-01-2019, 11:19 AM
I think these would all work. Feel free to take anything you like from it! Right now, the pk feels like a base class in an MMO, these things could make her feel like an advanced class.


I. The minimalist (you don't have to put in much effort and money, basically can be done in a few days):

1. Make heavy finishers unblockable.
2. Remove deep gouge, add 5-10 damage to all attacks where it can be applied (5 to dodge attacks, 10 to heavies).
3. Make dodge attacks start the chain. Make the dagger cancel the second light in a chain (can be followed up by heavy finisher)
4. Slow down the zone to 500ms, make it a heavy and make it deal 20 damage.
5. Make the pk regenerate stamina from bleed and from hitting bleeding targets.

Pros: Easy to program, possibly more interesting to play against, more interesting to play, no major change in playstyle
Cons: Heavy into guardbreak might be too strong with an unblockable heavy.

II. Bloodblinding:

1. Make opponents hit by pk bleed suffer a red color blind for the duration of the bleed.
2. Make her regain stamina if hitting bleeding targets and/or double her block damage against bleeding target.

Pros: Bleed matters this way, has far more pressure, possibly more fun to play, viable role in team fights, almost no change in playstyle.
Cons: Possibly irritating to fight (but not more than some like jj, shinobi or shugo, so who cares?), needs a bit more programming if gets more than a redying on stun.

III. Dodge specialist:

1. Deep gouge removed, damage partially worked into heavies.
2. Dodge attacks start chains, and can be feinted into guardbreak, dodge, dagger cancel and hardfeint.
3. Attack recoveries can be canceled by dodge.
4. Bleed damage and damage against bleeding targets restores stamina.
5. Zone is 500ms, considered a heavy, first hit deals 20 damage.

Pros: constant pressure, more interesting to fight as and against, mobility gives team mode viability.
Cons: possibly gives a few more optionselects to pk which would make her harder to punish

IV. Bleeder:

1. If the target is bleeding, riposting stab (deflect followup), dagger cancel and deep gouge gets a different effect: the pk stabs her knife into the shoulder, then knees the opponent in the face (animation taken from the newest execution), which restores her to full stamina. Opponent suffers 20 (35 in case of riposting stab) damage+all bleed on the opponent is taken instantly (damage dealt after the stab, bleeding hp is off after the knee). Small cc in team fights (the pk can be stopped midanimation if hit). Breaks hyperarmor and leaves a small stun with some stamina drain. Against targets on the ground, the normal version would activate.
2. Zone second part is undodgable and deals 25 damage instead of 20.
3. Deep gouge starts chains (not the version in point 1, just the normal).
4. Top heavy finisher deals 32 damage (up from 27).

Pros: Her playstyle would get the checkmate move she currently lacks, bleed would be threatening to have as the opponent, would give pressure tools.
Cons: Probably hard to program


Indirect buffs and feat buffs:

1. Make Thick Blood only halve the bleed damage (or make it an active feat), and Second Wind should stop the bleeding as it would be healed damage, not just as side effect.
2. Remove Thick Skin from pk, and add either a throwing dagger feat, or a feat which enables her to jump from great heights.


Indirect nerfs:

1. I don't think the zone optionselects should be in the game. If they would be removed, pk would be one of the biggest losers on it.

Knight_Raime
04-01-2019, 01:05 PM
Not particularly fond of most suggestions. Like adding an unblockable to her doesn't really need to be a thing. She has dagger cancel and soft feint to GB. People who attempt to dodge her dagger cancel or attempt to parry it are beaten by soft feint into GB. She can also alternatively dodge out of heavy start ups for a dodge attack/deflect attempt. Unblockables really serve to open up. PK can already do that. She just doesn't have pressure because her bleed ends her aggression.

Removing deep gouge in order to have combo starters for dodge heavies isn't needed. You can just have the dodge heavy combo into another heavy as a heavy heavy chain. Would make her heavy usage more relevant. And you can already dodge out of heavy start up. Or soft feint it to dagger cancel or GB. At that point you can just make it so dagger cancel is a chain starter. And then further make it so once an opponent is bleeding deep gouge is also a chain starter. I don't agree with nerfing her zone's speed. it's already nerfed damage wise. it's great as a quick finisher on a GBed opponent. and it's nice sprinkle damage.

Personally if I was going to go with a proper pk rework this is what i'd go for:

~dodge heavy chains into heavy finisher.
~Dagger cancel is a chain starter.
~When opponent is bleeding deep gouge is a chain starter.
~Deflect now executes.
~When opponent is bleeding pk lights have the enhanced property.
~Zone's second heavy in addition to being soft feintable into dagger cancel can now be soft feinted into GB.

So basically what my rework does is give her momentum. Once her opponent is bleeding blocking her is no longer an option. PK already has decent mix ups. Making her dagger cancel always a chain starter means PK can make a choice. She tries a standard mix up for higher damage potential. Or she goes for dagger cancel. Potentially a bigger risk because of light parry punish. But the reward if she lands it is she gains quite the offense. Her lights will no longer be stopped on block. and deep gouge is a combo starter as well during bleed. So her mix ups become more potent on the offensive front.

Making deflect execute is a nice addition to her kit. She can currently secure an execution via dodging out of heavy into dodge heavy or from a GB which she gets semi often due to the soft feint GB. Giving her a third option via deflect only bolsters her. Finally making her dodge heavy chain into a heavy finisher and giving her the same mix up of her heavies on the heavy of her zone's second hit both seek to add the opportunity to continue her mix ups in all areas of her kit.

This is all currently tempered with how much stamina she spends with her mix ups and her zone. Though if needed I could see a damage nerf to her kit only if these changes made it in. These are all relatively simple additions to her kit that doesn't demand a huge overhaul to her kit. And ultimately adds substance to the bare hero that is peace keeper.

Sweaty_Sock
04-01-2019, 01:19 PM
My idea is an unblockable, not trying to be divisive. But imagine if she had a glad style toe poke, that depended upon bleed stacks up until it hit?

Goat_of_Vermund
04-01-2019, 02:58 PM
I like your version, Raime. What I would add is if the zone second part is feintable into dagger cancel and guardbreak, it should also be feintable into a dodge.
I wanted to remove deep gouge because landing a heavy stops the aggression after deep gouge, but if it can restart a chain, it can stay.
I think her stamina problems could be solved by making her bleed regen stamina and hitting bleeding opponents regaining stamina. That would be original, and if the numbers done right, it wouldn't be broken.

What should be answered by the devs is how they consider zone parries, because it drastically empowers the pk if it remains.

Her dodge attacks should be faster just a little bit, or they should have variable input timing into the dodge. Dodging out from a heavy into a dodge attack is mostly a free parry.

Iscarikret
04-01-2019, 04:19 PM
Not particularly fond of most suggestions. Like adding an unblockable to her doesn't really need to be a thing. She has dagger cancel and soft feint to GB. People who attempt to dodge her dagger cancel or attempt to parry it are beaten by soft feint into GB. She can also alternatively dodge out of heavy start ups for a dodge attack/deflect attempt. Unblockables really serve to open up. PK can already do that.
Em, no, she can't open up opponents, dagger cancel doesn't work against players with reaction better than a turtle (I mean slow animals, not high level players), people with common 200-215ms reaction can easily just block her dagger cancel on reaction if will pay enough concentration to it, also it is easy to parry on reaction and get a free heavy, this move made to kill PK, like Aramusha's soft-feints, using it will make one hit, next time you will be parried and get x2 of your damage. And after this soft-feint is useless, she have no things to open opponents with even common reaction (for For Honor at least), maybe heavy feint and zone will work few times, but it will cost almost all stamina for all feints and just for 15 damage.

Goat_of_Vermund
04-01-2019, 06:09 PM
The heavy softfeint into dagger cancel is unreactable if you try to reaction block it. The problem is not that, but:

1. Extremely obvious.
2. Deals very low damage for high risk.
3. Can't pressure at all- ends the chain while also having poor stamina management.

Raime's suggestion, just like all four of mine solves this problem.

UbiInsulin
04-01-2019, 06:47 PM
Appreciate the feedback, everybody. PK's obviously seen recent changes (and I know not everybody believes they went far enough), so she's definitely on the team's minds.

Knight_Raime
04-01-2019, 07:20 PM
I like your version, Raime. What I would add is if the zone second part is feintable into dagger cancel and guardbreak, it should also be feintable into a dodge.
I wanted to remove deep gouge because landing a heavy stops the aggression after deep gouge, but if it can restart a chain, it can stay.
I think her stamina problems could be solved by making her bleed regen stamina and hitting bleeding opponents regaining stamina. That would be original, and if the numbers done right, it wouldn't be broken.

What should be answered by the devs is how they consider zone parries, because it drastically empowers the pk if it remains.

Her dodge attacks should be faster just a little bit, or they should have variable input timing into the dodge. Dodging out from a heavy into a dodge attack is mostly a free parry.


I thought about that dodge out of zone idea. But idk if that's doable. I know we have examples of dodging out of soft feints. But I can't think of any for multihit attacks. Pk's dodge heavy can absolutely be changed from a finisher to a combo starter. Not sure how I feel about messing with her stamina atm. I've tried asking for past q&a's. Never got a response. I gave up. I forgot about that. she's one of the few heros who's dodge attacks come 300ms at the earliest from dodges instead of 100ms. Should be changed.


Em, no, she can't open up opponents, dagger cancel doesn't work against players with reaction better than a turtle (I mean slow animals, not high level players), people with common 200-215ms reaction can easily just block her dagger cancel on reaction if will pay enough concentration to it, also it is easy to parry on reaction and get a free heavy, this move made to kill PK, like Aramusha's soft-feints, using it will make one hit, next time you will be parried and get x2 of your damage. And after this soft-feint is useless, she have no things to open opponents with even common reaction (for For Honor at least), maybe heavy feint and zone will work few times, but it will cost almost all stamina for all feints and just for 15 damage.

Her soft feint is a 400ms attack. You can delay the soft feint input to make it even harder to react. (this is founded by footage on freeze's channel. Delaying soft feints is a big help.) It's unreactable. You can attempt to dodge the dagger cancel if you dodge on a specific timing. But if she knows you're going to do this she can soft feint into her GB to catch you. While it's technically in the realm of possibility to have a single action reaction time good enough to parry it (the same can be said of any 400ms attack,) this is a choice action reaction. Meaning your ability to decide which action you're going for and then executing. Most players have terrible choice action reaction. With training this can be brought close to single action reaction timing. But when you get at that level you're probably in the top 20 players of the game.

Basically what i'm saying is that while yes, it is technically possible (just as dodging to GB BP's bash is technically possible) it's not realistically doable to any notable degree. Especially on reaction. The comparison to aramusha's feints is bad. Due to the forced 200ms between each combo hit, how he only has the one soft feint from deadly feint, and how slow his heavy finishers are his 400ms soft feint lights are basically 600ms attacks in terms of reactions. Which is why you can easily back dodge on reaction to his heavy finisher.

Pk has no problem securing chip damage via bleed or some mix up. Her problem is that she can't keep pressure due to bleed attacks ending her aggression. Which my changes add via enhanced lights during bleed and deep gouge(during bleed)/dagger cancel/dodge heavies being chain starters.

Melikethegames
04-01-2019, 08:32 PM
I think these would all work. Feel free to take anything you like from it! Right now, the pk feels like a base class in an MMO, these things could make her feel like an advanced class.


I. The minimalist (you don't have to put in much effort and money, basically can be done in a few days):

1. Make heavy finishers unblockable.
2. Remove deep gouge, add 5-10 damage to all attacks where it can be applied (5 to dodge attacks, 10 to heavies).
3. Make dodge attacks start the chain. Make the dagger cancel the second light in a chain (can be followed up by heavy finisher)
4. Slow down the zone to 500ms, make it a heavy and make it deal 20 damage.
5. Make the pk regenerate stamina from bleed and from hitting bleeding targets.

Pros: Easy to program, possibly more interesting to play against, more interesting to play, no major change in playstyle
Cons: Heavy into guardbreak might be too strong with an unblockable heavy.

II. Bloodblinding:

1. Make opponents hit by pk bleed suffer a red color blind for the duration of the bleed.
2. Make her regain stamina if hitting bleeding targets and/or double her block damage against bleeding target.

Pros: Bleed matters this way, has far more pressure, possibly more fun to play, viable role in team fights, almost no change in playstyle.
Cons: Possibly irritating to fight (but not more than some like jj, shinobi or shugo, so who cares?), needs a bit more programming if gets more than a redying on stun.

III. Dodge specialist:

1. Deep gouge removed, damage partially worked into heavies.
2. Dodge attacks start chains, and can be feinted into guardbreak, dodge, dagger cancel and hardfeint.
3. Attack recoveries can be canceled by dodge.
4. Bleed damage and damage against bleeding targets restores stamina.
5. Zone is 500ms, considered a heavy, first hit deals 20 damage.

Pros: constant pressure, more interesting to fight as and against, mobility gives team mode viability.
Cons: possibly gives a few more optionselects to pk which would make her harder to punish

IV. Bleeder:

1. If the target is bleeding, riposting stab (deflect followup), dagger cancel and deep gouge gets a different effect: the pk stabs her knife into the shoulder, then knees the opponent in the face (animation taken from the newest execution), which restores her to full stamina. Opponent suffers 20 (35 in case of riposting stab) damage+all bleed on the opponent is taken instantly (damage dealt after the stab, bleeding hp is off after the knee). Small cc in team fights (the pk can be stopped midanimation if hit). Breaks hyperarmor and leaves a small stun with some stamina drain. Against targets on the ground, the normal version would activate.
2. Zone second part is undodgable and deals 25 damage instead of 20.
3. Deep gouge starts chains (not the version in point 1, just the normal).
4. Top heavy finisher deals 32 damage (up from 27).

Pros: Her playstyle would get the checkmate move she currently lacks, bleed would be threatening to have as the opponent, would give pressure tools.
Cons: Probably hard to program


Indirect buffs and feat buffs:

1. Make Thick Blood only halve the bleed damage (or make it an active feat), and Second Wind should stop the bleeding as it would be healed damage, not just as side effect.
2. Remove Thick Skin from pk, and add either a throwing dagger feat, or a feat which enables her to jump from great heights.


Indirect nerfs:

1. I don't think the zone optionselects should be in the game. If they would be removed, pk would be one of the biggest losers on it.

But about warlord rework should we lets warlord died heroes? in for honor

Sweaty_Sock
04-01-2019, 09:42 PM
But about warlord rework should we lets warlord died heroes? in for honor

You have a thread on that, please go complain there about warlord

Raime suggesstions are good, only one I might add is do something with the three stabs on GB, its tedious - nerf its damage and and allow her to throw on two stabs into a wallsplat & confirm leap attack like the old so that you generally go for a heavy out of GB unless situationaly better

Goat_of_Vermund
04-01-2019, 10:18 PM
But about warlord rework should we lets warlord died heroes? in for honor

This topic is about pk, and I personally give zero **** about warlord. Thank you for your contribution anyway!

Goat_of_Vermund
04-01-2019, 10:59 PM
You have a thread on that, please go complain there about warlord

Raime suggesstions are good, only one I might add is do something with the three stabs on GB, its tedious - nerf its damage and and allow her to throw on two stabs into a wallsplat & confirm leap attack like the old so that you generally go for a heavy out of GB unless situationaly better

I actually like the threestab, it is unique, but a chance with wallsplats would be nice. I personally wouldn't touch the damage unless she gets very huge buffs in other areas (bigger than either me or Raime suggested).

Dry.Fish
04-02-2019, 12:47 AM
Raime suggesstions are good, only one I might add is do something with the three stabs on GB, its tedious - nerf its damage and and allow her to throw on two stabs into a wallsplat & confirm leap attack like the old so that you generally go for a heavy out of GB unless situationaly better

I thought this was confirmed if you throw at the right distance to allow for the windup. Or is that what you mean by tedious?

Sweaty_Sock
04-02-2019, 12:20 PM
I thought this was confirmed if you throw at the right distance to allow for the windup. Or is that what you mean by tedious?

Both - the three stabs themselves have a centurion cutscene 'takes me out of the fight feel' that only really has one outcome and features constantly in fights (other characters will heavy usually which then leads into a potential chain etc.) while the wall splat is too unreliable when compared to almost anyone else

Goat_of_Vermund
04-02-2019, 04:45 PM
I don't know, it's not a real cutscene. It is over quite quickly, and it is probably the only cc move pk currently has. I am not too attached to it however, if she gets the buffs she needs, they can take it.

raspberryyyyyyy
04-02-2019, 05:45 PM
nearly rep 11 pk here and pk doesn't need all that to be viable. I think my win percentage in duals is about 52% at least.

honestly just develop a play style that works best for you. I find feinting heavies and top heavies to be the best way to get most your damage out. Deflecting with pk also opens up light, light, heavy feint combos. You just gotta figure it out and play based on who youre going against and their playstyle.

Goat_of_Vermund
04-02-2019, 06:41 PM
What if I just block your heavies and attack you with my probably way superior damage/health/mixups/safe moves? You can't force anything at all, you can feint all you want, I just place my guard there.

Goat_of_Vermund
04-05-2019, 03:33 PM
What also bothers me with pk is how useless her top heavies are. She does not even deal more damage with the finisher, and there is literally no way you will ever land a top heavy from neutral- unlike with side ones where you can let them fly more safely due to dagger cancel, the top ones does not force a reaction and even have smaller hitboxes. To add insult to injury, the finisher is probably the coolest looking move pk has. Her kit could be expanded by just buffing that.

Ps: this move is one of many where a hero has totally useless parts in their kit (like kensei's 12 damage 600ms side light openers, or most of centurion's kit). I don't get why.