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View Full Version : On reworks (In response to infinite's video)



Knight_Raime
04-01-2019, 05:24 AM
A few things, formatting might be sloppy because I'm writing this from my phone. I'm not knocking the guy. If anything I think he's a good representation of the playerbase's current knowledge of the game and their general feelings about it. That being said I felt compelled to make a response to the video. Because even though the video isn't about ranking based on viability and that it is just his opinion it still puts out a lot of misinformation or wrong ideas of approach. I will link the video after posting because it's just easier to do that with my phone. Anyway let's get into it.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aHpmtMD_N-Y

His ranking went (from best to worst,) Kensei, Shugoki, Berzerker, Valk, Warden, Conq, Orochi, and peace keeper. I will be making my comments on the heros in reverse order based on his statements.

Peacekeeper: "her rework was a nerf. Hasn't fully recovered even with the update, has amazing potential"

Her rework was a buff and a nerf. People do not realize just how strong her soft feints are. Or how good her bleed became due to stacking being fixed. His suggestion was to do something interesting with dagger cancel. The problem with her is that her kit is uninteresting. Her damage isn't the problem. It's that her kit has always been bare. This was well known even when she was a dammed blender. I don't know what potential he supposedly sees in a kit that has nothing to it. Making her soft feints more interesting wouldn't fix this problem. The devs need to attach a mechanic to her bleed. Or give her reset pressure with bleeds.


Orochi: "rework didn't do much. He's boring. Has amazing potential. Rework set out to do what it was aiming for. But no way to counter."

Orochi is a stronger duelist with his rework and he became much more interesting. Problem is people gravitate to easy. It's far easier to spam orochi lights than use the nuances of his kit. Most orochi don't even bother weaving deflects in or continuing offense by dashing out of the end of chains recovery to start offense again. His only problem is a lack of presence in anything outside of a 1v1 because external block. He's uninteresting because his kit at base barely has anything. Not because the rework "failed."


Conq: "I know he's a defensive hero. But it feels like he's only defense and bash. If they nerfed his bash and buff his other bash he'd probably feel fine."

This is the first big indicator for me on lack of game sense. Conq is far more than his dash bash. He has several defensive mechanics in play that make him the monster he is. His forward bash is reliable chip damage. But it's not the best part of his kit. Conq is disliked because he's not fun to play due to his immense defensive options. If his chains were usable and his charge heavy could actually be used he'd feel a lot better.


Warden: "rework didn't do much. Had potential to be a legendary swordsmen. A bash isn't that. You can turtle him to use only bash. I know he's supposed to be an entry hero."

Besides the general lack of understanding on why every bit of his kit is not only good but usable what urks me here is that the rework is getting **** because it wasn't what people wanted. Not because it was a poorly done rework. Not a valid complaint. Yes. Bash play might be boring. But unless your a tournament player there is absolutely no way that you're incapable of using the rest of his kit. And saying you can turtle warden is just a stupid statement.


Valk: "she's fun. Sweep became less punishable. Feel like you have a lot of freedom with her kit. Still needs work."

Find it rather hypocritical to complain about bash spam /bash based play with Conq and warden but completely gives it a pass with Valk. Average Valk play is spam bash into sweep. The reason people get away with mashing out her strings isn't because they're good strings. Its because the average player is incapable of memerizing combos. Can't blame them though. Game doesn't really support combos. Oh and sweep didn't become harder to punish. Straight up lie. Her chains need work. Her sweep needs to be less punishable. Shield tackle needs to knock over people in oos. Etc.


Berzerker: "like the rework. They did a lot. Stayed true to his hero. Damage nerf. Armor on lights need to go so people don't have to wait for their turn."

Armor isn't preventing you from attacking zerker. It's his speed combined with the ability to properly use feints and bait you via canceling his on whiff recoveries. Or to put it in simple terms. Players are upset that they don't get a go to method to counter his kit. They don't like that they actually have to think to fight berserker. One of the only heros in the game that actually works like a fighter in any other fighter should work. Yeah. Totally get why people hate him. News flash if they removed the armor on his lights he'd still roll you. All the armor does is allow him to actually attack in a team fight. Removing it would absolutely kill him outside duels. Very good example of someone not understanding the game.


Shugoki: "love the rework. No longer boring to play. Goki gets to do things now. Headbutt needs utility. Needs an answer to rolls. Don't understand why people think he's op now."

He just got done calling armor out as being obnoxious on zerker because it forces people to wait around. Average players don't roll mix ups intentionally. So Goki is forcing people to wait in addition to being unreactable mix up wise. Clearly just bias here by him. Which is fine since it's just his opinion. But it's funny that he's either pretending or actually clueless about the complaints. Yet he seems to hit the nail on the head with all other community complaints.


Kensei: "stayed true to the hero. Best rework. Might be a little slow. Can't complain much about his rework. It was just good."

Unsurprising. Community thinks Kensei is the gold standard hero despite having some glaring flaws in his kit. He has no mid combo pressure. His opener isn't treating unless you're near oos or oos. Nature's wrath hasn't worked as a roll catch since it was added. The community loves Kensei's rework for one reason only. Kensei cannot oppress you. He can't spam. He can't easily tank. He can't unreactable you to death. He's a push over unless you really know how to use him. Just signifies that the community really sits one way.

Despite complaints of one demensional play,how boring kits can be, how some kits are bad because they lack the strong tools people "hate" people seemingly want that. Because anytime a hero forces players to step out of that comfort zone and actually learn how to play beyond reactions its screeched as bad design.


So yeah closing thoughts. Community is community. Constantly angry about how people complain. Annoyed at people's lack of information. Generally annoyed with how the game is handled. Rant over.

Sweaty_Sock
04-01-2019, 08:00 AM
Agree with alot of what you say here, and do not really agree with anything in the video other than the shoulderbash on warden needing a nerf (so that other parts of his kit can be tweaked) - to easy to learn and all you really need

I think people liked kensei because unlike all the other reworks - it added, balanced but didn't take away. All the other reworks have removed some key element of the character, meaning if you already knew how to use them you now are on the same learning kerb as someone new just picking them up EDIT even zerk mains complained out his top attack punishes going away

Zerker is a tad to good at the core elements of the game - lights, heavies, guardbreaks, dodges, feints and parries (with those fast feints). This means when you get to the above average level of play where these elements begin to really shine zerk shines all the more. Something as simple as a slight numbers tweak on his damage or stamina cost would easily bring this back down to everyone else while leaving HA as his unique aspect for higher tier play

EDIT: bang on with the PK description (you not him) - I think she needs some way to 'cashout' her bleeds, some risk reward where after a good combo you end and get the bleed upfront with interest (would have to nerf overall bleed) - its just poke them to death at the moment feels boring

Further edit: disagree on shugo, that guys broken at the moment - nerf tracking on hug, remove stamina gain, reduce miss penalty. increase penalty on whiffed headbut as some characters cannot punish

Knight_Raime
04-01-2019, 12:26 PM
Agree with alot of what you say here, and do not really agree with anything in the video other than the shoulderbash on warden needing a nerf (so that other parts of his kit can be tweaked) - to easy to learn and all you really need

I think people liked kensei because unlike all the other reworks - it added, balanced but didn't take away. All the other reworks have removed some key element of the character, meaning if you already knew how to use them you now are on the same learning kerb as someone new just picking them up EDIT even zerk mains complained out his top attack punishes going away

Zerker is a tad to good at the core elements of the game - lights, heavies, guardbreaks, dodges, feints and parries (with those fast feints). This means when you get to the above average level of play where these elements begin to really shine zerk shines all the more. Something as simple as a slight numbers tweak on his damage or stamina cost would easily bring this back down to everyone else while leaving HA as his unique aspect for higher tier play

EDIT: bang on with the PK description (you not him) - I think she needs some way to 'cashout' her bleeds, some risk reward where after a good combo you end and get the bleed upfront with interest (would have to nerf overall bleed) - its just poke them to death at the moment feels boring

Further edit: disagree on shugo, that guys broken at the moment - nerf tracking on hug, remove stamina gain, reduce miss penalty. increase penalty on whiffed headbut as some characters cannot punish

TBH the only thing i'd change about warden at this point is reducing his reward from landing a fully charged shoulder bash from top heavy to side heavy. Which equates to 10 less damage at 30 damage. Effectively means Warden would have to land a full extra fully charged bash to kill most heros compared to now. Zerk wise i'd just adjust his damage. Backwards zone is a dead move atm but it's so hard to balance around. So it's fine being super niche I guess.

I've continually suggested with pk that she should be able to deflect while someone is bleeding to do all her bleed tick damage at once. And that her deflect should execute. And it's a really popular opinion to make at least one of her bleed appliers to be a chain starter. I disagree about goki being broken. His offense has basically no range and can be rolled on reaction. Headbutt is basically a dead move. I'd be fine with him losing more stamina on a whiffed hug if his hug did slightly more damage and the whiffed recovery wasn't two freaking seconds. Headbutt could get a recovery increase if it was faster.

Sweaty_Sock
04-01-2019, 01:16 PM
TBH the only thing i'd change about warden at this point is reducing his reward from landing a fully charged shoulder bash from top heavy to side heavy. Which equates to 10 less damage at 30 damage. Effectively means Warden would have to land a full extra fully charged bash to kill most heros compared to now. Zerk wise i'd just adjust his damage. Backwards zone is a dead move atm but it's so hard to balance around. So it's fine being super niche I guess.

I've continually suggested with pk that she should be able to deflect while someone is bleeding to do all her bleed tick damage at once. And that her deflect should execute. And it's a really popular opinion to make at least one of her bleed appliers to be a chain starter. I disagree about goki being broken. His offense has basically no range and can be rolled on reaction. Headbutt is basically a dead move. I'd be fine with him losing more stamina on a whiffed hug if his hug did slightly more damage and the whiffed recovery wasn't two freaking seconds. Headbutt could get a recovery increase if it was faster.

Agree to disagree on goki, I've been testing it and its dirty in my eyes

RE: warden should at least be three stage charge, mid tier (timing only, no indicator) gives you side heave, once you cross into fulll charge (heavy top) cannot be cancled. Margins for error are always a good thing.

Knight_Raime
04-01-2019, 01:17 PM
Agree to disagree on goki, I've been testing it and its dirty in my eyes

RE: warden should at least be three stage charge, mid tier (timing only, no indicator) gives you side heave, once you cross into fulll charge (heavy top) cannot be cancled. Margins for error are always a good thing.

We can both agree Goki is filthy. just for different reasons. d:

Sweaty_Sock
04-01-2019, 01:21 PM
We can both agree Goki is filthy. just for different reasons. d:

Haha, imagine the layers of salt between them stomach rolls...

UbiInsulin
04-01-2019, 06:29 PM
I took the opportunity to embed the video in your post, so people can experience full-on cognitive dissonance from reading your opposing views as they watch it. :p

Knight_Raime
04-01-2019, 07:23 PM
I took the opportunity to embed the video in your post, so people can experience full-on cognitive dissonance from reading your opposing views as they watch it. :p

Yeah it was late and I was tired. Couldn't figure that out. thanks as always my guy.