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Velentix
03-31-2019, 09:11 PM
A while back there was a nerf shugo thread, in which I said I wanted HA taken off of his lights. Today I found some people to test parrying his lights, given that I attacked once I saw their guard disappear i.e. whenever they did an offensive action. Unfortunately I didn't record any of this, but you can recreate the test yourself if you are inclined. The premise to this isn't that I think its super OP or anything, I think that its just bad game design, because you go from the mind games of combo's/kit specialties to turtling for shugo's light. That being said, it is a difficult one to parry, and this was with me throwing them from the same side. it got parried about 10% of the time, and when I was using it to just fight, mixing it in here or there it never got parried. That would likely go up if people practiced it, but you need two people to do that, and seems like a bother.

now this is by no means a super scientific study or anything, Im just sharing my experience, and that is that having HA lights let me set the pace of the fight throughout the entire thing, in both duels and dominion. The abusable aspect of it was that if I ever got into a fight with someone with less HP than me, I had an uncontrivertable advantage, and by the time they picked up on what I was doing I just switched to using shugos heavy to trade their parry attempt with a charged heavy. Again my problem with this is that I didn't need to use anything else in shugo's kit, just his HA on lights and heavy (though mixing in the headbut every once in a while was helpful) and I kept my opponent from doing anything but trying to parry my light; I think shugo would be better off with superior block lights, but thats just me. TLDR: it is parryable, but degrades the fight to a shallow turtle meta fight.

I would love for others to test this as well, and leave some experiences so we can get a better more wholistic view.

OhHowSheGoingEh
03-31-2019, 11:18 PM
I'm going to be honest with you. You wasted your time testing this all with shugoki and you wasted your time writing it all down here. The devs wont exchange a thing about it, look at berserker, 90% of the community want his HA removed on his lights and that hasn't happened for 4 season now.

Iscarikret
03-31-2019, 11:36 PM
I'm going to be honest with you. You wasted your time testing this all with shugoki and you wasted your time writing it all down here. The devs wont exchange a thing about it, look at berserker, 90% of the community want his HA removed on his lights and that hasn't happened for 4 season now.

Developers just understand that removing HA on Zerker's lights will do nothing.

Melikethegames
04-01-2019, 12:04 AM
A while back there was a nerf shugo thread, in which I said I wanted HA taken off of his lights. Today I found some people to test parrying his lights, given that I attacked once I saw their guard disappear i.e. whenever they did an offensive action. Unfortunately I didn't record any of this, but you can recreate the test yourself if you are inclined. The premise to this isn't that I think its super OP or anything, I think that its just bad game design, because you go from the mind games of combo's/kit specialties to turtling for shugo's light. That being said, it is a difficult one to parry, and this was with me throwing them from the same side. it got parried about 10% of the time, and when I was using it to just fight, mixing it in here or there it never got parried. That would likely go up if people practiced it, but you need two people to do that, and seems like a bother.

now this is by no means a super scientific study or anything, Im just sharing my experience, and that is that having HA lights let me set the pace of the fight throughout the entire thing, in both duels and dominion. The abusable aspect of it was that if I ever got into a fight with someone with less HP than me, I had an uncontrivertable advantage, and by the time they picked up on what I was doing I just switched to using shugos heavy to trade their parry attempt with a charged heavy. Again my problem with this is that I didn't need to use anything else in shugo's kit, just his HA on lights and heavy (though mixing in the headbut every once in a while was helpful) and I kept my opponent from doing anything but trying to parry my light; I think shugo would be better off with superior block lights, but thats just me. TLDR: it is parryable, but degrades the fight to a shallow turtle meta fight.

I would love for others to test this as well, and leave some experiences so we can get a better more wholistic view.

you know shugoki its really easy to parry his light even shugok its heavy heroes his should have hyper armor on light but berserker have light on hyperarmro should be remove WTF asssain got hyperarmor all his move berserker

OhHowSheGoingEh
04-01-2019, 12:36 AM
Developers just understand that removing HA on Zerker's lights will do nothing.

No developers understand nothing the state of this game proves this statement.

Iscarikret
04-01-2019, 01:51 AM
No developers understand nothing the state of this game proves this statement.

Developers understand everything, but they know how it was with many reworks or big nerfs they did, they nerfing, character becomes unviable or completely trash, I think they are learned by experience of Centurion and PK. They have small team and balance department have other problems I think, now they work on new hero and two reworks, they won't touch viable characters, before weak and trash will be playable.

And yeah, developers understand or not, it doesn't matter, HA on Zerk's lights do almost nothing in duel, he need damage nerf, not nerfing his HA.

Siegfried-Z
04-01-2019, 10:05 AM
Developers understand everything, but they know how it was with many reworks or big nerfs they did, they nerfing, character becomes unviable or completely trash, I think they are learned by experience of Centurion and PK. They have small team and balance department have other problems I think, now they work on new hero and two reworks, they won't touch viable characters, before weak and trash will be playable.

And yeah, developers understand or not, it doesn't matter, HA on Zerk's lights do almost nothing in duel, he need damage nerf, not nerfing his HA.

Agree on that. Zerk is a very specific case and remooving some of his HA would not really change the difficulty people usually have to deal with him.

It would not change anything to remoove 400ms light HA.

The only way Zerk could be nerf to me is on his 1st and 2nd heavy dmg. Thats all.


But, about the topic, i think Shugo HA on light should not be in the game.
HA on a light Opener is too much.

Sweaty_Sock
04-01-2019, 10:25 AM
Zerk needs a tweak (not a hammer) to his damage or stamina, favorable trades are to favorable at the moment, let him take the damage he dealt and backup for one more engage.

Also shugo HA lights are bad. make them heavies and be done with it

UbiInsulin
04-01-2019, 07:14 PM
Since we've gotten on the subject of Berserker's hyperarmor and high damage, we've sent those pieces of feedback to the team. For this thread, let's stick to Shugoki. I'll pass the concerns about the HA on his lights to the dev team.

CRIMS0NM0NKEY
04-03-2019, 02:11 AM
First shugoki has ONE HA light attack. ONE. If you know he is going to light attack you on prediction or reaction it's not an issue. It's not like he can faint it.

Parry, deflect, block, counter attack, backstep, fullguard, or dodge.

I get it. He gets to start the trade and nothing but prediction or reaction beats a HA light attack. And even then it's difficult for some characters. He can end your faint game or your ability start combos through bash and spam. It's powerful.

So let's get rid of it. Shugokis is a trader so let's trade this powerful single HA light for some of his original kit. Give him his passive HA, his damage, and his guarrenteed headbutt with his original stamina deletion.

So now you can spam him, bash him, and faint him all you want without him having a simple solution for it. But if he trades his heavy passive/active light/heavy plus the guarrenteed headbutt with you at some point your going to feel it. Your going to be exhausted from all that spam/bash/fainting and your not going to think shugoki is "fun" to fight anymore because the shugoki mains are just going to turtle up again until they see their moment to trade.

My point is that if you take away Shugoki's SINGLE HA light you should just delete him from the roster or compensate him for this powerful tools deletion in a major way. As once this is removed he will be worse off than he was prework. He will have all the handicapps of old shugoki with none of the powerful tools namely his Passive HA, damage, or his guarrenteed headbutt with stamina burn. He still would be missing his one shot kill, his zone faint, and his uninteruptable DE.

I'm in favor of this trade because shugoki shouldn't have a simple solution. However an opponent should be very punishable when shugoki does get an opportunity to trade or when the opponent makes a mistake. Like assasins the current shugoki doesn't test the skill of the player but the opponents skill. A shugoki player should have to "know shugokis passive" and test the players ability to turtle against the opponent light/bash combos. The problem is this is "unfun" for most people playing shugoki and "a choir" to fight against a skilled shugoki.

So what should ubi do? Shug has no guaranteed openers. A major Nerf to his single HA light would put him in the dumpster again.

Bare in mind shug doesn't have much in the way of combos and it's a single HA light. Powerful? Yes. Spammable? Not really.

One last thing. Shugoki's hug is fairly useless in 1v1 or dominion at high reps. Changing the timing didn't help much. Using it in ganks just feeds revenge most the time and puts you in recovery near their face right when they are going to pop it.
SoYea from my point of view a Nerf to his demons embrace is almost laughable.

Goat_of_Vermund
04-03-2019, 06:52 AM
I am not an expert on this, but what if the following would be changed:

- HA removed from light openers (against bashes, it would change nothing, and he wouldn't have a simple solution to end any mixups)
- Headbutt guarantees a light while keeping every other current properties
- HL and LL chains added. The second light is undodgable (to counter headbutt dodge) and has HA

Sweaty_Sock
04-03-2019, 03:17 PM
I am not an expert on this, but what if the following would be changed:

- HA removed from light openers (against bashes, it would change nothing, and he wouldn't have a simple solution to end any mixups)
- Headbutt guarantees a light while keeping every other current properties
- HL and LL chains added. The second light is undodgable (to counter headbutt dodge) and has HA

No thankyou, a light light with undodgable? Just charge a heavy after the light and crack them after their dodge...