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View Full Version : Dear Olleg, (this not a message for complaints) Night war



I_ZG52_Gaga
06-21-2005, 05:47 AM
Dear Olleg,
This not a message for complaints.
I hear you are working on the Infamous Mosquito. As far as I know the allies already have acquired an abundance of A/C that are really "incredible" or if I€m allowed to say "out of this world". http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif
The Allies have already a nice big smile on their faces as it is, where they are are about to have a bigger one shortly.
I wanted to beg you for some Luftwaffe A/C that could equalize the two forces so to speak.
I beleive that we should as soon as possible get:
Ju 88s all variants possible €" Dorniers Do 17 all variants possible - and of course the HE 219 UHU that can kill the Mosquito.
Further more we could utilize the missing variants of the BF110.

Another matter is that, one major aspect that's left out completely is the Night war.
A major part of WWII as you of course already know was the fights during night time. How difficult would it be for you, to create radars like the FUG and such?
Is it possible that we could have night raids with working radars?
Personally I would be looking forward for something of the sort.

I don't expect you to answer this one.
No worries, just take the time to read it if possible.

I hope that the universal forces will keep you and your team, healthy and happy for years to come and when ever you feel like it to create for us nice software from which one gets educated and extracts pleasure as well! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

I_ZG52_Gaga
06-21-2005, 05:47 AM
Dear Olleg,
This not a message for complaints.
I hear you are working on the Infamous Mosquito. As far as I know the allies already have acquired an abundance of A/C that are really "incredible" or if I€m allowed to say "out of this world". http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif
The Allies have already a nice big smile on their faces as it is, where they are are about to have a bigger one shortly.
I wanted to beg you for some Luftwaffe A/C that could equalize the two forces so to speak.
I beleive that we should as soon as possible get:
Ju 88s all variants possible €" Dorniers Do 17 all variants possible - and of course the HE 219 UHU that can kill the Mosquito.
Further more we could utilize the missing variants of the BF110.

Another matter is that, one major aspect that's left out completely is the Night war.
A major part of WWII as you of course already know was the fights during night time. How difficult would it be for you, to create radars like the FUG and such?
Is it possible that we could have night raids with working radars?
Personally I would be looking forward for something of the sort.

I don't expect you to answer this one.
No worries, just take the time to read it if possible.

I hope that the universal forces will keep you and your team, healthy and happy for years to come and when ever you feel like it to create for us nice software from which one gets educated and extracts pleasure as well! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

p1ngu666
06-21-2005, 06:05 AM
radar would be worse than the bombsight, ie hardly anyone could or would use it.

HE219 vs mossie, was 13 or 14 kills each, or equal whatever the score was.

ImpStarDuece
06-21-2005, 07:17 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by I_ZG52_Gaga:
Dear Olleg,
This not a message for complaints.
I hear you are working on the Infamous Mosquito. As far as I know the allies already have acquired an abundance of A/C that are really "incredible" or if I€m allowed to say "out of this world". http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif
The Allies have already a nice big smile on their faces as it is, where they are are about to have a bigger one shortly.
I wanted to beg you for some Luftwaffe A/C that could equalize the two forces so to speak.
I beleive that we should as soon as possible get:
Ju 88s all variants possible €" Dorniers Do 17 all variants possible - and of course the HE 219 UHU that can kill the Mosquito.
Further more we could utilize the missing variants of the BF110.

Another matter is that, one major aspect that's left out completely is the Night war.
A major part of WWII as you of course already know was the fights during night time. How difficult would it be for you, to create radars like the FUG and such?
Is it possible that we could have night raids with working radars?
Personally I would be looking forward for something of the sort.

I don't expect you to answer this one.
No worries, just take the time to read it if possible.

I hope that the universal forces will keep you and your team, healthy and happy for years to come and when ever you feel like it to create for us nice software from which one gets educated and extracts pleasure as well! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


Interesting point of view Gaga.

What "incredible" Allied aircraft do we have in the game? I'm just wondering what your definition of 'incredible' is? It intrigues me. Maybe the YP-80 is a little out of place but thats about it.

The only "out of this world" plane types, for me at least, are the Go-229 and the bf-109Z, as neither flew or got past the prototype stage and their modeling is maybe a tad generous. Even the I-185s we have at lest flew some test flights.

We are set to get a FB. VI Mosquito as flyable and an unarmed fast bomber IV Mosquito as an AI, I don't know if it's a bulged bomb-bay type, but I doubt it. Neither are the fastest or most deadly representatives of the type. A NF. 30 with paddle-bladed props and late war boosted Merli 72s would really be ferocious, but still not 'incredible'.

I really don't think that the night war would be included in IL2. It would be like adding a completely new add-on to the game. Oleg has stated that radar would be VERY difficult to implement. Additionally, day fighting did account for a far greater percentage of aerial combat than night fighting. To model the night fighter war in Europe properly you would need Stirlings, Halifaxes, Lancasters, Wellingtons, He-219s, night fighter bf-110 variants, night fighter Me-2i0/410 varaiants, night fighter Mosquitos, proper radar modeling, AI which didn't fly with nav lights on, and so on and so forth. Essentially it would be another FB/PF sized project, especially considering the bombers needed.

I_ZG52_Gaga
06-21-2005, 09:59 AM
Ok! For the record, I€m not intimidated by all these facts you just threw to my face: D

None the less the Luftwaffe needs the A/C I mentioned so instead of making let's say 3000 variants of the "hated" spitfire you could deliver us some Ju88s Dorniers and so on ...http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

I can foresee that this conversation will not present me with any solution ....so thanks for your time anyway!

Best Regards
http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

harryklein66
06-21-2005, 10:15 AM
but a night war in PTO would be easier to add,
we have the B 24 and the B 29, now we just need
a J1N1-Sa Gekko (the one we see in a dev update a longtime ago http://www.pacific-fighters.com/ss/gekko.jpg :/ ) and his cockpit (2 crew station ), but no radar needed cause few Gekko where equiped with radar, and most of the time
they were dismount by the crew.
but i doubt whe see it in the game even as IA
it's too late now, and nobody care about the PTO... http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/cry.gif

I_ZG52_Gaga
06-21-2005, 10:55 AM
Heh i'm sorry i have to ruin it for youhttp://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif
Pacific fighters is not actually my cup of tee
to the extend that i don't really care what goes down with this particular simulation ...
It's mainly for US citizens and i can't relate
to it at all .... (here comes the joke now ..)
i would if it could be turned into a time machine so that i could land in a Zero on a US airfield then rush to some radio station and tell to all US citizents that their goverment knows about the in-coming Japanese fleet but it needs the excuse ............ LOL the rest is history ... or is it? LOL

Ah!! this is fun i should have making more posts !!!

Later guys take good care of your selfs
Remember! this is basically a game http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif
(i think so is life isn't it?)

goshikisen
06-21-2005, 10:58 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by I_ZG52_Gaga:
I can foresee that this conversation will not present me with any solution ....so thanks for your time anyway!

Best Regards
http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Try contacting Oleg directly... I don't think he frequents this board anymore.

To be honest a night fighting sim is about as niche market as you can get when it comes to flight sims. Night fighting is very specialized... you'd spend a great deal of time instrument flying, looking at a radar and pitch black outside the cockpit. Flak, Searchlights and Explosions would be the only thing to really look at beyond your actual aircraft. It'd take a dedicated sim addict to really get interested in it in more than a cursory way.

I'm currently reading an account of the Beaufort campaign against Axis shipping in the Mediterranean by Wing Commander Patrick Gibbs. He describes a night flight from the North Coast of Africa across the Med. to Malta. The whole flight took place at night. He describes not being able to see the horizon and having to spend almost 5 hours instrument flying. He had to have his navigator join him in the cockpit to keep him awake as the sound of the engines and the low lighting of the cockpit almost put him to sleep. Night fighting is, obviously, much more involved than this but a great deal of it would involve mundane flying in near to perfect darkness.

If you were a sim producer... would you create a product with such a limited appeal?

Regards, Goshikisen.

joeap
06-21-2005, 11:05 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by I_ZG52_Gaga:
Heh i'm sorry i have to ruin it for youhttp://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif
Pacific fighters is not actually my cup of tee
to the extend that i don't really care what goes down with this particular simulation ...
It's mainly for US citizens and i can't relate
to it at all .... (here comes the joke now ..)
i would if it could be turned into a time machine so that i could land in a Zero on a US airfield then rush to some radio station and tell to all US citizents that their goverment knows about the in-coming Japanese fleet but it needs the excuse ............ LOL the rest is history ... or is it? LOL

Ah!! this is fun i should have making more posts !!!

Later guys take good care of your selfs
Remember! this is basically a game http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif
(i think so is life isn't it?) </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well I look forward to the JU-88...but can't stand the **** Euro-US centrism here. You don't think Japanese people would like to fly their granddads planes, or Canadians like myself who actually like Axis equipment?

I_ZG52_Gaga
06-21-2005, 11:06 AM
No!
but i would try to make it a part of an existing one cos then this whole huge package
would be un-surpased!! (the greatest)
Also it would give new meaning to On-line wars
because you would have also serious night fighting and bombing, freaking excellent !!

Cheers http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

I_ZG52_Gaga
06-21-2005, 11:08 AM
My guess is that they would! But hey! what's the argument here PF exists!! You got it allready!!
http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Cheers

A.K.Davis
06-21-2005, 11:38 AM
I'm afraid it would require a huge amount of work. In FB/PF, night looks very nice, but almost everything else needed is missing (AI visual restrictions, ground radar, airborne radar, ground controllers, etc.).

LEXX_Luthor
06-21-2005, 12:14 PM
Yes, the AI pilots and gunners see in the dark.

Anyway, then we need YP~80 modded into YF~94 to Balance He~219. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

Night War...The section MiG Crises: Night Duels over the Yalu starts on page 48...
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">
from page 51

Meanwhile, twisting and turning amid darkness and clouds, MiGs dueled with the Skyknights, now joined by F€"94s (cleared at last to fly in northern skies) high over Korea€s mist-shrouded mountains. In January, three MiGs fell before the guns of the Flying Nightmares, and a La€"9 to a F€"94, with another F€"94 damaging a Yak€"9. But that same month, FEAF Bomber Command lost four B€"29s to marauding MiGs. This led General Fisher, who had been so hopeful in November, to now write, €œIf the Communists ever crack that last link and get an all-weather capability of pressing an accurate firing attack, the B€"29 business is really going to get rough.€ Fortunately such did not occur. MiGs, Skyknights, and F€"94s continued to fight it out high over the Yalu, the MiGs adopting sophisticated tactics to bait and lure American nightfighters to their doom. One MiG fell to an F€"94 on June 12, but the same victorious crew disappeared less than a week later, probably to a MiG trap. A small Navy detachment joined the Marines, and quickly lost a Skyknight and its crew to such a trap in early July; two days after this loss, a Marine Skyknight and its crew disappeared in the same area. But no more Superfortresses fell before Communist fighter pilots. January 1953 had seen the last of that.

Undoubtedly the aggressive use of friendly nightfighters pressured MiG pilots €"hitherto free to concentrate on shooting down sitting-duck targets with defensive gun systems sorely taxed by the MiG's€ speed and rate of closure €"to pay more attention to what was around them, easing pressure on the harassed bomber crews.


PDF file ~ https://www.airforcehistory.hq.af.mil/Publications/full...t_and_Courageous.pdf (https://www.airforcehistory.hq.af.mil/Publications/fulltext/Steadfast_and_Courageous.pdf)
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Now, what is a night time MiG trap?

Thanks to SkyChimp for finding these PDF files.

heloguy99
06-21-2005, 12:30 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by LEXX_Luthor:
Yes, the AI pilots and gunners see in the dark.

Anyway, then we need YP~80 modded into YF~94 to Balance He~219. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Why would we need the YF-94 to balance? The 219 isn't a jet.

stathem
06-21-2005, 12:48 PM
Who needs a jet? I'd take my chances in a full blown paddle bladed NF.XXX against a 219 anyday.

p1ngu666
06-21-2005, 03:31 PM
ud need to model bomber command, various night time effects like exhaust glow, sparks etc.

FBVI operated at night also, doing vulching, shooting up trains etc.

AI IV with 2000lb max bomb load. mossies took 4000lb cookies to berlin regularly. (berlin express)
could also take 500lb or 1000lbs on the wing hardpoints, but i dont think they ever did, normaly took drop tanks instead.

btw theres a word "mosquitopanik!"
a term coined by luftwaffe night fighter pilots for the effect of the mossie, on them.
http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/ASIN/1844150259/qid.../026-8704357-3613238 (http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/ASIN/1844150259/qid=1119389248/sr=8-5/ref=sr_8_xs_ap_i5_xgl/026-8704357-3613238)

tempted by this one too http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/ASIN/1861267185/ref.../026-8704357-3613238 (http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/ASIN/1861267185/ref=pd_sim_b_dp_3/026-8704357-3613238)

i wub teh foto recon http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/heart.gif

KOM.Nausicaa
06-22-2005, 05:04 AM
I would like to give Gaga some support.
The Night War is an awesome and fascinating aspect of the WW2 airwar, with some really incredible exploits done. If you dig into that history you will realize how special and interesting this part of the war was.
A good Night Simulator would be an awesome thing...some people tried to do it, as the "Target for Tonight" project, that was unfortunately stopped. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-indifferent.gif

Yes, right, it would be even less commercial then hardcore combat sims already are. A niche in the niche if you want.

It would be great if future engines of 1C maddox would implement the possibility to do one later. It all comes down to the engine here, guys. The night war uses strategy and tactic and technical support that was developed especially for it, and the engine must be able to simulate that, even if you can also play a normal "over day" sim with it.

If Oleg is smart (and I think he is!) he will create with BoB an engine that can, in future simulations, recreate a believable night war as it can simulate the Medittarenean.

A.K.Davis
06-22-2005, 09:34 AM
I strongly suspect they will at least lay the ground work for proper nighttime operations in BoB. I imagine the Blitz will be covered, and this will necessitate AI visual restrictions, added effects needed for night and enough fidelity to simulate night interceptions by day fighters (e.g. Hurricanes).

Also, I hope that ground radar will actually be simulated and not abstracted into some sort of script. If ground radar is simulated, the basis will be there to put radar in aircraft. Then you would only need to model the interface (which I seriously doubt we will see in BoB release).

It is a fascinating subject, but also a complex one that would probably warrant a study sime in and of itself.

F19_Olli72
06-22-2005, 09:43 AM
If Oleg & CO decides to implement support for nightfighting in BoB the first thing they must do is to implement forced gammasettings in config file.

Ever tried nightmissions online? They're pointless since everyone boosts gamma to daylight brightness. A solution would be like it was in Return to Castle Wolfenstein; If your gamma in config file was higher than the servers settings you were kicked as it was recognized as cheating.

F19_Ob
06-22-2005, 09:52 AM
I like the idea of nightfighting and really would enjoy that.
I dont want to spoil your dream but I think they are overloaded with work with BoB and fixing the bugs in this sim.
I see big difficulties for it to work well in this sim.
Perhaps the troubles could be overcome but it likely would take a lot of work.

The nighfighters both with radar and without needed to come veryclose to the target without being seen. As it is now the ai gunners open up on long range dark or not.
Modeling different radars for both sides and make it to work i suspect would be too much work to even think about it for this sim. Also several new planes are needed on both sides and only the planes take over a year to complete I remebered Oleg say in some post.

It wont work online either since people just turn up the gamma on their monitors and the night becomes almost as bright as day (as they do now) and that rules out the online play completely.

Atleast we are getting the Ju88 and even if its only the bombervariant and not the fighter I think we must be happy with it, even if the fightervariant would give the mosquito a hard time, wich would have been fun. Two about equal twinengined fighters.

a few thoughts

LEXX_Luthor
06-22-2005, 10:26 AM
Don't be tricked by the slogans posted here. Waiting for Patch, we ~all~ saw how FB/PF dogfighters fell in love with SilentHunter~3 strategic night interception simulation with long range missiles.

Over the StrikeFighters, I am having most fun trying to learn 3rd Party F-94B, an attempt to simulate a two seater in a flight sim. At night, you aim guns using the radar display way down in the cockpit, ignoring what's outside the window. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif This is Awsum stuff.

Also practicing with 3rd Party mod MiG~17PFU with primitive Izumerud~2 and K-5 missiles that half the time just don't work. Its an Extreme challenge, as it was to the real life pilots, doing it at night, with limited fuel on afterburner, trying to get into proper position with ground control messages only.

Good read on the early Izumerud radar and K-5 missiles...

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Please note that information on these systems is extremely hard to come by and the following account doubtless contains some errors.

~~&gt; http://www.brushfirewars.org/aircraft/mig_17f_pf_pm/mig_17_2.htm
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>This is the stuff Oleg_Maddox needs to simulate.

Scen
06-22-2005, 10:49 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by I_ZG52_Gaga:
Heh i'm sorry i have to ruin it for youhttp://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif
Pacific fighters is not actually my cup of tee
to the extend that i don't really care what goes down with this particular simulation ...
It's mainly for US citizens and i can't relate
to it at all .... (here comes the joke now ..)
i would if it could be turned into a time machine so that i could land in a Zero on a US airfield then rush to some radio station and tell to all US citizents that their goverment knows about the in-coming Japanese fleet but it needs the excuse ............ LOL the rest is history ... or is it? LOL

Ah!! this is fun i should have making more posts !!!

Later guys take good care of your selfs
Remember! this is basically a game http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif
(i think so is life isn't it?) </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Are you serious? Silly How does the Eastern Front War relate to us here in the U.S.? I still love the sim regarless. I fly all sides as there is too much to enjoy.

Can't relate.. Silly like you said it's just a game.

Scendore

p1ngu666
06-22-2005, 12:25 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by F19_Ob:
I like the idea of nightfighting and really would enjoy that.
I dont want to spoil your dream but I think they are overloaded with work with BoB and fixing the bugs in this sim.
I see big difficulties for it to work well in this sim.
Perhaps the troubles could be overcome but it likely would take a lot of work.

The nighfighters both with radar and without needed to come veryclose to the target without being seen. As it is now the ai gunners open up on long range dark or not.
Modeling different radars for both sides and make it to work i suspect would be too much work to even think about it for this sim. Also several new planes are needed on both sides and only the planes take over a year to complete I remebered Oleg say in some post.

It wont work online either since people just turn up the gamma on their monitors and the night becomes almost as bright as day (as they do now) and that rules out the online play completely.

Atleast we are getting the Ju88 and even if its only the bombervariant and not the fighter I think we must be happy with it, even if the fightervariant would give the mosquito a hard time, wich would have been fun. Two about equal twinengined fighters.

a few thoughts </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

from what ive read the ju88 was best night fighter in major service with teh lw, but mossie was better by abit http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

later versions of the p61 where better than mossie, early ones worse..

also u need todo night really well or not make much of a effort. in doom3 black was BLACK. thats probably the way to go.

radar screens tended tobe several crt's each one giving height, left or right and maybe other information.
they would show this by a curve on the screen, where the curve was showed whether they where left or right etc.

also ud have a varity of strength of curve

F19_Olli72
06-22-2005, 01:47 PM
Yup, maybe some who doesnt know about the ww2 radars expect a round sweeper with a blip like modern radars, but it wasnt quite that sophisticated back then. For example the early RAF radars (IIRC in Beufighters etc) could have little quirks like that even if the radar showed they were gaining on the enemyplane in fact the enemy was flying away in the opposite direction(!).

p1ngu666
06-22-2005, 04:27 PM
yep there was REAL skill in using the radar sets, and luck too.

im sure someone will come along and say the german radar was great and 5425X better than what the RAF had, but irl probably similier.

nightfighters where a two man or more job, much like rally driving. co driver is very important http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

germans used 109s and 190s but over the target, with searchlights, and the fires below.

stathem
06-22-2005, 04:44 PM
Funny you should mention that Pingu, I used to do a lot of Road rallying in Wales a few years ago as a Navigator - the sport had it's origins in this country in the bomber crews returning from the war and looking for a little exitement and to use their skills - Road rallying's more about finding your way (more difficult than it sounds with 1950's maps) than strictly going fast (although there's quite a lot of going fast too now).

A mate of mine that still does it still uses a original Nav's Poti (map magnification light) from a Lanc.

Co-ops'd be great with someone on the scopes and dials calling out the contacts. Don't think there'd be many willing to sit in the left hand seat though (or behind for the 110's)

p1ngu666
06-22-2005, 07:00 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by stathem:
Funny you should mention that Pingu, I used to do a lot of Road rallying in Wales a few years ago as a Navigator - the sport had it's origins in this country in the bomber crews returning from the war and looking for a little exitement and to use their skills - Road rallying's more about finding your way (more difficult than it sounds with 1950's maps) than strictly going fast (although there's quite a lot of going fast too now).

A mate of mine that still does it still uses a original Nav's Poti (map magnification light) from a Lanc.

Co-ops'd be great with someone on the scopes and dials calling out the contacts. Don't think there'd be many willing to sit in the left hand seat though (or behind for the 110's) </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif
id agree with being a co pilot bit, but then again ppl strap themselves into a rally car and see trees approaching with great speed out the side window. or those hooooge drops.

sadly the FIA asked the WRC teams to remove the co drivers name from the side window of the rally cars http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-mad.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/51.gif

waffen-79
06-23-2005, 05:08 PM
Before a nightfighter sim we need:

Properly Flyable

MOSQUITO
TEMPEST
JU-88 any variant
JU-52 any variant
C-47 any variant

oh and BTW "mossie" sounds SO gay