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View Full Version : The next add on to IL2 FB should be the Spanish Civil War



XyZspineZyX
05-16-2003, 10:25 AM
A lot was Russian vs. German.

There are some really cool interwar period planes that only one Flight Sim ever modeled. Only one company did it (Luftwaffe Commander) as far as I know and it was pretty poor.

Some of the early Russian Period planes in IL2 FB right now were used during this trial war for the early Luftwaffe.

This is truly a Russian vs. German forgotten battle.




Message Edited on 05/16/0309:28AM by red99

XyZspineZyX
05-16-2003, 10:25 AM
A lot was Russian vs. German.

There are some really cool interwar period planes that only one Flight Sim ever modeled. Only one company did it (Luftwaffe Commander) as far as I know and it was pretty poor.

Some of the early Russian Period planes in IL2 FB right now were used during this trial war for the early Luftwaffe.

This is truly a Russian vs. German forgotten battle.




Message Edited on 05/16/0309:28AM by red99

XyZspineZyX
05-16-2003, 06:05 PM
MED

NEXT...


/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

___________
:FI:Fenian

http://www.endlager.net/fis/pix/banners/fis_euro_us_02.gif

http://www.fighting-irish.org/

XyZspineZyX
05-16-2003, 06:56 PM
WW1

<img src=http://www.simops.com/graphics/wildcard.gif>

IRON SKIES
As real as you want it to be.

XyZspineZyX
05-16-2003, 10:25 PM
Hmm... interesting reply....

but not realistic.


We only need the birds for WW1 at the moment - and perhaps some antiquated MGs /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

But I love those slow, hard to master birds /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

Still say Med though. It's aboit time we had some sunshine from Mr. Maddox /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

___________
:FI:Fenian

http://www.endlager.net/fis/pix/banners/fis_euro_us_02.gif

http://www.fighting-irish.org/

XyZspineZyX
05-17-2003, 11:40 AM
Definitely the Mediterranean.
I want to fly FAA Fulmars off a carrier in defense of Malta, and Hurricane IVs against Panzers in Africa, and Gloster Gladiators against Italian biplanes.

Philips CDRW

"Whirlwind Whiners"
The First of the Few

Posting vacuous messages since 2002

XyZspineZyX
05-17-2003, 04:28 PM
I would love Spanish Civil WAR mixed with the Soviet/Japanese conflicts of the 1930s. That could be done in one package, as they share Soviet aircraft.


_______
http://www.lexx.ufo.ru /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

Message Edited on 05/17/0303:40PM by LEXX_Luthor

XyZspineZyX
05-17-2003, 05:19 PM
Mediterranean? Then the Spanish Civil War might be what you need. Check you geography /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

http://dspace.dial.pipex.com/haddock/sig/glad_01.jpg

&lt;script language='Javascript' src='http://dspace.dial.pipex.com/haddock/sig/gamers.js'></script>

&lt;script>newIcon('single', 'http://dspace.dial.pipex.com/haddock/capitaine_64.gif');</script>

XyZspineZyX
05-18-2003, 12:36 AM
yes we need a MED next or north africa. WW1 would be annoying.

Death is only the begining...



Message Edited on 05/17/0305:37PM by RS_LT_Aligator

XyZspineZyX
05-18-2003, 05:26 PM
I've seen a number of people mention World War 1 here. Just to clear up any possible confusion the Spanish Civil War didn't take place during World War 1 and the planes involved would reflect this.

It is a small war that took place a couple years prior to the start of the European hostilities of World War II. It was here that the Bf109 made its first appearance as the Bf108. Biplane fighters were used but they are more modern than World War I with more powerful engines, superstructures, and armaments.

XyZspineZyX
05-18-2003, 06:42 PM
S!

I wold like to see CHINA!

Japaneese carriers, Val, Beth, Nate, Kate, ....Zero, against I-16, TB-3, I-153 and of course, the AVG /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif



<Center>http://gavca.com/conteudo/imagens/fb/FB_p-47_jambock1.jpg <Center>
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XyZspineZyX
05-18-2003, 06:59 PM
how many spanish civil war posts are there going to be?

http://mysite.verizon.net/vze4jz7i/ls.gif

Good dogfighters bring ammo home, Great ones don't. (c) Leadspitter

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XyZspineZyX
05-18-2003, 07:02 PM
Good thinking. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

I was just reading about that...the Claudes ate the Chinese using Soviet planes like I~15 I think. This too could be in the Spanish Civil WAR package.

Also, I think it I once read that it was during this time in Mongolia or somewhere that the Soviets tested the air~air rockets with I~15/I~16 against the Japanese fighters. I find the the air~air option in FB with these planes interesting, and Mig~3 too.

XyZspineZyX
05-18-2003, 07:06 PM
---how many spanish civil war posts are there going to be?

One more post? Why not !! Spain and Mongolia were the precursors of Eastern Front, much like Finland. /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif



______________
Everytime you use post about Spanish Civil WAR, Oleg strangles a kitten. /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif



Message Edited on 05/18/0306:17PM by LEXX_Luthor

XyZspineZyX
05-19-2003, 05:06 AM
For any other SCW Aviation buffs out there I've found a really nice site detailing the planes that were involved for the Nationalists and Republicans.

http://www.zi.ku.dk/personal/drnash/model/spain/Media/Nationalist.jpg

http://www.zi.ku.dk/personal/drnash/model/spain/Media/Ge23.jpg


http://www.zi.ku.dk/personal/drnash/model/spain/codes.html

Maybe it's time to hit the skins again and start making some SCW planes. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif


Message Edited on 05/19/0304:12AM by red99

XyZspineZyX
05-19-2003, 07:12 AM
No thanks. But would love to see Western European Front revisited though!!!



Message Edited on 05/19/0306:18AM by Charlie901

XyZspineZyX
05-19-2003, 05:12 PM
Western Europe ... high altitude escort and inteception missions = real fighter tactics with good frame rates

XyZspineZyX
05-19-2003, 07:46 PM
When you've played flight sims for as long as I have, and as many sims as I have, Western Europe = same planes and situations I've seen in 20 or so of the other FS's I have. Nothing new or original there to hold my interest even for a game as solid as IL-2. I'd hate to see Oleg go that route. I don't even have much interest in seeing the BOB covered for this same reason. But he has to go where the market is looking I suppose.

Oleg and his team seemed to have a system, as it appears to me, of taking the lesser covered part of WWII aviation, like the Russian Front from IL-2 and the lesser known conflicts in IL-2 FB. These are the types of new and interested never much touched areas this veteren simmer looks for nowadays.

One can always hope he'll continue this system into other areas of interesting, but not very well covered areas of prop sim flight. I wouldn't worry about a game in this area, or the early Japan - Russian wars of the 1930s as being boring or unbalanced. The style, grace, and dedication that the IL-2 team puts into their projects will see to anything they make being a joy for us gamers.

The mediteranian would be something I'd be interested in seeing but I wonder if there is enough meat there? This area of the war wasn't huge in itself and seems better suited as one option to explore as a part of a bigger whole. Maybe something involving the US vs Italy with the Mediteranian early battles as a part of that.

XyZspineZyX
05-21-2003, 02:44 PM
Capt_Haddock wrote:
- Mediterranean? Then the Spanish Civil War might be
- what you need. Check you geography -

I recall that sometime last year, Ubi conducted a web survey in which most of the respondents replied that they wanted the next sim to recreate the WWII Mediterranean conflict. If such a recreation of that theater of the war goes forward as a new box set (similar to IL2:FB), then there might be some generalized maps with Mediterranean features (for example, the network play maps) which could double as SCW scenario maps. Plane model types and numbers from that era, I am less sure about. Perhaps, third-party aircraft modelers would consider building additional planes or create pre-war retro-variants for SCW--there already seems to be some interest in modeling SCW aircraft based on recent threads.

Admittedly, this discussion is mostly speculative since we do not know, yet, the future sims development path which Ubi is researching and considering; the web poll last year indicating an interest in the Mediterranean was an unscientific one (and non-binding at that!) so a Med project is not completely certain. Still, maybe this and other SCW threads will spark some interest with the developers and game publishers to entertain the possibility.

XyZspineZyX
05-21-2003, 03:19 PM
WW I!

Biplanes, wind, pure tactics...

The western theater has been treated ad nauseum (thanks, MS), though never on Il2's graphics/physics standards.

WW I, is being left out for years!

Personal opinion, however....

XyZspineZyX
05-21-2003, 03:41 PM
I can only think of 2 a/c that are in the FB plane set that could be included in a Spanish scenario, the I-153 and I-16. The He111, Ju87 and Me109 all need new graphic models.


The MTO is a much more logical step for the next sim.

**** beware the charge of the rhinos ****

http://www.stenbergaa.com/stenberg/nutkins-clifftopchase2.jpg
http://www.stenbergaa.com/stenberg/copic-finalmission2.jpg

XyZspineZyX
05-22-2003, 02:00 AM
I think I agree with the majority...Western Front/BoB has been done a dozen times (unfortunately by those much less talented than Oleg). So my vote would be for the Mediteranean. Just think of the theaters...Lybia, Tunisia,Crete,Sicily,Greece, Italy ..even Romania (stopping the B24s from Tunisia to Ploesti for example) Then there are the German naval and air supply lines to Rommel. A Med sim covering the 1942-1944 era, would also give you just about every heavy bomber and fighter used in the war. The possiblities are endless, so are the add-ons. Just my humble opinion.

Lev /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

XyZspineZyX
05-22-2003, 02:07 AM
I forgot to mention just the scenery alone(north Africa deserts, Italian mountains, etc.) would be worth the price of admission to a Med sim.

Lev /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

XyZspineZyX
05-22-2003, 04:55 AM
/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif I too would enjoy MED maps, but with Spiftire, Hurricane, 109, etc... MED aircraft have been done before, in other sims. The only major difference is the maps.

I was stunned to see the skins for Spanish Civil WAR. How such a brutal military/political conflict was fought with such colourful machines stunned me.

It has been stated that FB is a low altitude game engine. The FM and the Pancake you see at high altitudes argues against Oleg going forward in time to 1948. The FB grafix of today will be ideal for Oleg going back in time to the 1930s.

A possible marketing consideration:: People from all over the world voluteered to fly in combat in Spanish Civil WAR. USA people flew I~16s years before Flying Tigers flew in China. I think there would be more marketing options if they considered the international aspect of SCW and how the first shots of Eastern Front and Western Front were fired in Spain. /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

George Orwell volunteered for Republican side, and abandoned Josef Stalin's cause as a result of the things he saw. In the 1940s, Franco threatened Hitler with guerilla warfare if German troops entered Spain. Franco and Molotov were the only politicians who made Hitler back down during a personal meeting. Sorry for the off topic rant, but a SCW sim would be a World War 2 sim covering the precursor of Eastern and Western fronts together.



Message Edited on 05/22/0304:20AM by LEXX_Luthor

XyZspineZyX
05-23-2003, 01:18 AM
Well, i`m with the guys voting for MED, but all that matters to me is flying spits...
gone a long way since BoB, SwotL, Aces and so on...
Corsairs and Spits... soooo beautiful.
Although the spit looks better in Western Europe Camo than desert... hmmmm. But on the other hand, all these really forgotten battles (Spanish civil war and the japanese conquering of china) sound interesting too. But no Spits, argh!

XyZspineZyX
05-23-2003, 01:27 AM
Yes...but you can have Euro paint on the spits in Italy and Sicily! /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

Lev

XyZspineZyX
05-23-2003, 01:29 AM
Hm, right - count me in! And Gloster Gladiators... Yumyum.

XyZspineZyX
05-23-2003, 02:12 PM
Actually, even the I-16 and I-153 aren't right for SCW.

The models used were I-15 and I-15bis (gull wing and straight upper wing respectively), and I-16 tip 4, tip 5, and tip 10 plus a few unarmed trainers.

The I-16 tip 4 has 2mg (early i.e. non-ShKAS) and a 480HP normally aspirated engine, but still outclassed all other fighters in Spain when it was introduced, and until the arrival of the Bf109.
The tip 5 has a 730HP engine supercharged with a critical altitude of 2400m and a pair of wing mounted ShKAS.
The tip 10 has a 750HP engine supercharged with a critical altitude of 2900m and four ShKAS (two cowl, two wing).

The I-15 would have a performance nearer the P11c (which I use when making early war Russo-German missions), making it much less effective than the much later I-153.

In fact, even if the SCW doesn't come to pass these earlier models of the Polikarpov fighters would make a welcome addition, allowing a historical advantage for the German Fighters.

Technically the later models: I-16 tip 18 through tip 29 were extremely powerful and agile aircraft, and their main weakness was a relatively low top speed by late 1941/1942.
The I-16 tip 18 was a modification of the tip 10, and had an 800HP engine rated up to 4200m with 4 ShKAS. The tip 24 was a further modification of the tip 18, retaining the 4 ShKAS and increasing engine power to 900HP at 4500m.
The earliest cannon armed variants were built in small quantities as the tip 12 and tip 17 with the 730, and 750HP engines, and had two wing ShVAK and two cowl ShKAS.
The I-16 tip 27 had the 800HP engine, and the latest variants, the I-16 tip 28 and tip 29 recieved the 900HP engine of the tip 24.

The I-153 is fine for The Far East though.

XyZspineZyX
05-23-2003, 02:27 PM
for the german Side you need a lot more planes than now in FB;

Heinkel He 51
Arado Ar 68
Messerschmitt Bf 109 B, C, E-1
Junkers Ju 87 A, B-1
Heinkel He 111 E, F
Heinkel He 46
Heinkel He 59
Heinkel He 115


++ 88.IAP_Manuc ++

XyZspineZyX
05-24-2003, 03:00 AM
VVS-Manuc wrote:
- for the german Side you need a lot more planes than
- now in FB;
-
[snip]

Here is a fairly comprehensive listing of both sides:

"Aircraft that took part in the Spanish Civil War"
http://www.zi.ku.dk/personal/drnash/model/spain/did.html

XyZspineZyX
05-24-2003, 09:57 PM
I'm glad to see a post like this!

There's SCW work on the way... We don't know it we will do it for Il-2 or not until a votation we have in our website will be over.

Some criticised our website due to spanish language. Well, now it is translated to english. Not all, but enough to navigate into the website. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif


About MED and SCW, I would recall that half os Spain is in the Mediterranean. Of course, SCW (1936-1939) took place just before WWII, but geographicaly is in the med. I would like to see it included!


Ah, our SCW website is this:

http://scw.webcindario.com/index.php?newlang=english

FB and Il-2 flyers, check out the Skin downloading section!

Message Edited on 05/24/0308:59PM by TUCKIE_JG52

XyZspineZyX
06-29-2003, 11:46 PM
Finally it has been created a campaign (20 missions) about Spanish Civil War for Forgotten Battles!

Go here to download it:

http://scw.webcindario.com/index.php?newlang=english

http://mywebpage.netscape.com/tuckiefotos2/SCW4/snap451.jpg




For those who have downloaded the campaign and has had problems, check our latest news in our website to see the solution!

Ah, and we have a new downloadable cooperative mission, from Mad_Cat:

http://mywebpage.netscape.com/tuckiefotos2/SCW4/snap477.jpg

XyZspineZyX
06-30-2003, 01:40 AM
you guys shuld have start the project long ago, start to model, and do some maps, oleg seen the stuff on the table i am sure he would take it
please dont do this for other sim guys


"Never forget the past so we dont make the same mistakes in the future"

XyZspineZyX
06-30-2003, 05:20 AM
You never know guys, Oleg may turn around and surprise us all with his next Sim.
Giving us a Whole World at War of Forgotton Battles, wouldnt that be a blast !

Going into a Hyper Lobby that has df server games and coops of The Eastern Front, the Med , BOB, and the Pacific, and no matter what df server or coop mission you entered you where compatible with the game being hosted.

Probably be the biggest selling WW II Combat flight Sim of all time.

XyZspineZyX
07-02-2003, 12:05 AM
Nice pics! *bump*

<center>http://www.bloggerheads.com/mash_quiz/images/mash_henry_blake.jpg (http://www.bloggerheads.com/mash_quiz/)</center>

Message Edited on 07/01/0311:07PM by rbstr44

XyZspineZyX
07-02-2003, 12:15 AM
We tried to be heard by Oleg but he simply ignored us, so, as we can do no more in FB to have a realistic SCW campaign (exact version of the planes, new map, etc...), we voted in our website, and TargetWare was the winner.

And do you know what? They responded us giving full support il all in only two days...

I assume that Oleg is not interested in a sim that he thinks that will not sell well...

The question is that we will do everything in our hand to create it, whoever will it support. It's very simple: oleg does not support us. TargetWare does.

And don't worry for realism. TW is equal or better than FB!



Aztek_Eagle wrote:
- you guys shuld have start the project long ago,
- start to model, and do some maps, oleg seen the
- stuff on the table i am sure he would take it
- please dont do this for other sim guys
-
-
-
- "Never forget the past so we dont make the same
- mistakes in the future"





Message Edited on 07/01/0311:18PM by TUCKIE_JG52

XyZspineZyX
07-02-2003, 12:50 AM
Tuck, just don't get hysterically accurate with the SCW cockpits. The fancy cockpits have the worst frame~rate performance and don't have a proper "Instant Instrument View" -- with return to previous view upon key releace, like in Flanker 1.0, so we can't use the sexy FB cockpit instruments anyway. Make your sim so that you *never* even think about offering a speedbar.

Don't get too involved with Damage Models, as you can see people are never satisfied no matter how much "realism" detail you try to make. Optimize everything for massive aircraft battles, and if you can get 100 AI aircraft in the air at once, you can simulate Kuban/Kursk/BoB/B~17 battles better than FB if you want to. /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

In combat, pilots often never see the damage to their aircraft, but they do see dozens or hundreds of enemy aircraft--something you never see in FB. Granted, I don't know how large SCW air battles were. Don't make a flight sim, Microsoft makes flight sims, you make air combat sim.

XyZspineZyX
07-02-2003, 10:53 PM
Hey, thanks for your indications... I take note... I'm completely agree!


LEXX_Luthor wrote:
- Tuck, just don't get hysterically accurate with the
- SCW cockpits. The fancy cockpits have the worst
- frame~rate performance and don't have a proper
- "Instant Instrument View" -- with return to previous
- view upon key releace, like in Flanker 1.0, so we
- can't use the sexy FB cockpit instruments anyway.
- Make your sim so that you *never* even think about
- offering a speedbar.
-
- Don't get too involved with Damage Models, as you
- can see people are never satisfied no matter how
- much "realism" detail you try to make. Optimize
- everything for massive aircraft battles, and if you
- can get 100 AI aircraft in the air at once, you can
- simulate Kuban/Kursk/BoB/B~17 battles better than FB
- if you want to. /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif
-
- In combat, pilots often never see the damage to
- their aircraft, but they do see dozens or hundreds
- of enemy aircraft--something you never see in FB.
- Granted, I don't know how large SCW air battles
- were. Don't make a flight sim, Microsoft makes
- flight sims, you make air combat sim.
-
-

XyZspineZyX
07-09-2003, 03:20 PM
*bump* It could just be a retro-add-on to the WWII Med. /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

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