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View Full Version : Would you make a good campaign commander?



rnzoli
08-06-2007, 07:28 AM
There is always much talk on these forums being a "good combat pilot", virtual and real.

But have you ever given a thought about, how would you do as a commander, who needs to look far more ahead than just one mission, and have to see the big picture of a campaign?

Would you be
- smart enough to manage reconaissance flights and their results?
- good at selecting mission targets for your flights?
- able to resolve the everlasting dilemmas how to use the limited resources in the best way?
- clever enough to use the changing weather to your advantage?
- brave enough to take risks in order to surprise your enemies?
- conservative enough so that you don't risk unnecessary losses?
- able to move around ground troops and ships in line with your air fleet?

The reason why ask is that I am trying to arrange setting up an open demonstration campaign for Scorched Earth Online War (SEOW), however, we have conflicting estimates on how many people would be interested in trying the commanders' position. Maybe none, maybe several. Hence this poll to gain some insight rearding what you think.

(More information about the possibilities as a commander in SEOW can be seen in the user guide, http://seow.sourceforge.net/seow_guide.pdf , skip section 3, as it will be set up already for you.)

PS. If you were acting as a commander already, chime in with your experiences - were you a good commander? http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif Why - why not.

cmirko
08-07-2007, 02:27 AM
bump to top

SEOW is the best airwar ever devised for il2fb - its extremely flexible and cover almost all aspects of airwar operation

S!

Capt.LoneRanger
08-07-2007, 02:37 AM
I rarely flew online-wars, but this is something really interesting. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif

mautsi2
08-07-2007, 02:58 AM
It's not difficult to be a commander in Seow but to make good strategic decisions is...

If you make a small template for your demo campaign,make some Task Forces ready to use also so ground force movements are made more simple for new CO:s.


Of my previous Campaigns i've done the record is if i remember right:

Victorious: Once
Draw: Twice
Defeat: Once

The thing is,i make atleast one dumb decision in a campaign everytime in some stage of the action.It's mainly duo to bad intelligence on the battlemap,don't know what your against with...88mm Flak usually that kills in Home and Garden with deadly precision.

And when you make a bad call,you try too much to compensate for the next mission and if it fails also your usually in big trouble for several next missions or probably going to loose the whole campaign...

Our Airforce usually saves my *** from my bad decisions http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/clap.gif

LLv16_Jager

mortoma
08-07-2007, 04:12 AM
In the old B-17 Flying Fortress II game you could play as a strategic commander overseeing the whole bomber group. I tried it several times and did pretty well at destroying Germany.
Most of the time I just played on the one bomber
tactical level though. It was enough just to manage one bomber and get it through missions back to English soil. Believe me, it was enough.

ViktorViktor
08-07-2007, 04:41 AM
I used to play '12 O Clock High' which is an old (Grigsby ?) offline pc game which lets the player assume responsibility for conducting air operations for the entire war in Western Europe 1943-45 as the primary Allied or German air war leader.

You would, for example, plan nightly British and daytime American bombing raids, specifying how many bombers from which squadrons would participate, what their flight plan would be, and when they would proceed. But the first thing to do was to read the weather forecast for the upcoming day, and send out some reconissance aircraft. After watching the raids on a map of Europe and receiving that day's reports of the bombing results, you would repeat the same process for the next day. And so on.

So there was bookkeeping and micro-managing galore (for example do I send 5 replacement pilots to JG26 or do I send 7 to a squadron over in Italy ? Or do I withdraw some elements of JG26 to a peaceful sector, since their avg pilot fatigue level is now dangerously high and their accident rate is increasing ?). A big problem was that I could not delegate any duties to an AI or human subordinate. For example, it was not possible to delegate responsibility for the Italian theater to the AI, nor was it possible to delegate responsibility for nighttime bombing operations to anyone.

It was interesting at first, but to do it every day got to be a burden after awhile. The scope of responsibility was too large for the amount of detail packed into the game. Plus, I didn't get to 'fly' at all.

Should commanders in SEOW enjoy micro-managing in order to be effective, and is it possible/practical for them to fly regularly ?

Would a commander's actions have repercussions on units not under his control (that is, would other commanders and their resources be affected by my actions as well) ?

I guess the most important question is - how much time on a daily basis does it require to be a commander ?

cmirko
08-07-2007, 05:47 AM
Originally posted by ViktorViktor:

<cut>

You would, for example, plan nightly British and daytime American bombing raids, specifying how many bombers from which squadrons would participate, what their flight plan would be, and when they would proceed. But the first thing to do was to read the weather forecast for the upcoming day, and send out some reconissance aircraft. After watching the raids on a map of Europe and receiving that day's reports of the bombing results, you would repeat the same process for the next day. And so on.


same as in seow http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif - although seow is played on one tactical map


Originally posted by ViktorViktor:

So there was bookkeeping and micro-managing galore (for example do I send 5 replacement pilots to JG26 or do I send 7 to a squadron over in Italy ? Or do I withdraw some elements of JG26 to a peaceful sector, since their avg pilot fatigue level is now dangerously high and their accident rate is increasing ?). A big problem was that I could not delegate any duties to an AI or human subordinate. For example, it was not possible to delegate responsibility for the Italian theater to the AI, nor was it possible to delegate responsibility for nighttime bombing operations to anyone.

delegating authority is a normal thing in seow - all tactical and micro-managing decisions are up to commander/s to do. Commanders control all planning for one COOP mission (AI and Human flights, navy, all ground forces, disposition of flak, engineer columns to repair bridges, factories which produce new equipment and so on)


Originally posted by ViktorViktor:
It was interesting at first, but to do it every day got to be a burden after awhile. The scope of responsibility was too large for the amount of detail packed into the game. Plus, I didn't get to 'fly' at all.


the scope of SEOW is tactical - so not that much resources to use as a whole theater battlefield - each mission you plan you don't have to fly, but its more fun that way http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif at least for me http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif


Originally posted by ViktorViktor:
Should commanders in SEOW enjoy micro-managing in order to be effective, and is it possible/practical for them to fly regularly ?

Would a commander's actions have repercussions on units not under his control (that is, would other commanders and their resources be affected by my actions as well) ?


commanders must do micro managing - you will be in a role of a tactical command of all forces (or just part of them) - if you don't micro manage your troops (remember all troops except planes are AI) you wil have a lot of dead troops soon http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

other commanders could be affected - if somebody sends tanks to capture the village and you don't provide cover (if you were air commander) for that tanks they will be masacred by a smart human flown bombers http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif - everything depends on level of intelligence you have and how do you use your recon flights (just like in real war)


Originally posted by ViktorViktor:

I guess the most important question is - how much time on a daily basis does it require to be a commander ?

each mission in seow lasts one hour - all planning (including all air, sea and lans units at your disposal) is max 20 mins for an experienced commander who knows what he wants to do in this mission - after the mission is flown you get the results of it and can plan next mission in that campaign...., inexperienced commanders will need a bit more time for few first missions, but web MP (mission planner) in use is really simple and you will not need much time learning to use it http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

S!

mautsi2
08-09-2007, 05:23 AM
Bump.

rnzoli
08-10-2007, 02:26 AM
Thank you for your votes and comments.

I think this poll confirms the generic feeling that there is a certain interest in strategic aspects, but it is rather marginal, at least in these forums.

In other words, finding an excellent pilot is 100 times easier than finding just a fairly good campaign commander http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

As an update to those 17 people who pressed "Yes" to the poll: there is something cooking in the kitchen of Scorched Earth Xtreme (S.E.X.), which would allow looking at, learning and practicing mission planning for anybody interested in a fun SEOW campaign. Of course, coupled with the possibility to fly the planned missions as well. And then, see what worked or didn't work well in your plans http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Hitcher plans to drop in more details here over the weekend, so stay tuned...

<pre class="ip-ubbcode-code-pre"> </pre>http://seowdoc-en.swil.fr/images/0/0a/Mission-HQ-Area.jpg

Deadmeat313
08-10-2007, 03:00 AM
^^^

That sounds good. I'm interested in checking out how SEOW works. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif


T.

DmdSeeker
08-10-2007, 04:45 AM
Can any one link to more info about these online wars?

My squad is beginning to show interest in something a bit more involving than the ordinary DF servers, but we're unsure what's out there.

leitmotiv
08-10-2007, 06:12 AM
This is really good if you want to sink your teeth into operational planning:

http://www.hpssims.com/Pages/products/defreich/defreich.htm

rnzoli
08-10-2007, 07:13 AM
Can any one link to more info about these online wars?
There are a number of separate intersquad campaigns ongoing at any given time. Some overview is availabe at http://www.scorchedearthxtreme.org front page, middle down to Status Report.
Another place is on the official SEOW forums campaign noticeboard, http://www.raf74.net/seow/viewforum.php?f=2&sid=720c410...ef9e5384a31e07732777 (http://www.raf74.net/seow/viewforum.php?f=2&sid=720c410892c5ef9e5384a31e07732777)

As you can see, there is no centralized infrastructure (like in AFW), so it pretty much up to squadron to agree on match-ups, but it is quite normal to have 2 or more squadrons flying for the same side in the same campaign.

I am aware of several other squadrons, who are or were playing SEOW campaigns at one point of time

E.g, a new campaign is being planned by 242Sqn vs. 102nd on Prokhorovka map just nowadays, and are looking for squadrons to join their side:
http://www.242sqn.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=374&start=15

Another campaing I am aware of accidentally http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif is between Italian suadrons vs. 69.GIAP:
http://www.dogfighter.ch/ScorchedEarth3/MP4/Statistics/...ons.php?Sector=Kuban (http://www.dogfighter.ch/ScorchedEarth3/MP4/Statistics/MP-Missions.php?Sector=Kuban)

This could give you a general idea. The open campaign we are trying to set up could give you the hands-on experience.

mautsi2
08-10-2007, 08:45 AM
Here you see our latest results of the Kuban Campaign that has ended.
http://padin.mine.nu:8080/MP4/Statistics/MP-Missions.php?Sector=Kuban

Briefings for most missions,they are all in finnish but you can see from the intel map pictures in the briefs how the battle moved on the map.
http://padin.mine.nu:8080/PHPBB2/viewforum.php?f=10&sid...e298cd448326602ad18d (http://padin.mine.nu:8080/PHPBB2/viewforum.php?f=10&sid=ab1a5d570ec6e298cd448326602ad18d)

FourShades
08-10-2007, 10:23 AM
OK, I'm going to break my rule and comment here! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Just to be clear, SEOW is a software system for running multisquad online wars (called campaigns). SEOW is NOT an online war competition, like AFW, or FS etc, that you just register for and fly in.

With SEOW, you can set up and run your own campaigns in the way YOU want. But it takes some knowledge to get started. For beginners, it is often best to contact other people who are running SEOW already and ask to take part in their campaign as a learning experience. Most new people to SEOW are amazed at the level of detail in the campaign, so it does take some time to get accustomed to.

Cheers,
4Shades

amilaninia
08-10-2007, 11:47 AM
rnzoli.
Your idea reminds me the campaign battles in the SWOTL flight sim of the early 90's by Lucas Arts. An outstanding game plan second to none. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

SE_Xtreme
08-10-2007, 03:18 PM
SE Xtreme is always ready and willing to help newcomers to what I like to call, "PURE SEOW GOODNESS"

Please visit our website, forums, TS server and our dedicated co-op server, called 'Sea of Madness', anytime for a taste of what SEOW has to offer.

rnzoli
08-11-2007, 12:34 AM
Further to that, do not miss the thread The Battle of Coral Sea: Test Campaign (http://www.scorchedearthxtreme.org/index.php?name=PNphpBB2&file=viewtopic&t=393), which states


Originally posted by Hitcher:
We will recruit <span class="ev_code_YELLOW">assistant mission planners</span> and dedicated campaign <span class="ev_code_YELLOW">flight leaders </span> as necessary, if there are any interested parties in those positions.

If you like the Pacific Theater and the planned mission times are good for your schedule, get in touch with Brandle or Hitcher, depending which side you would like to fly for and/or plan for.

If you are more into the Eastern Front, or different times, I am still trying to convince cmirko to set up a similar open campaing on his server for Crimea. But since he and Brajo are busy with conquering the world in various tournaments, that may take a while http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

rnzoli
08-11-2007, 01:00 AM
Originally posted by FourShades:
OK, I'm going to break my rule and comment here! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif
LOL, as the lead developer for SEOW these days, comparing SEOW to AFW was just untolerable, correct? http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif


Originally posted by FourShades:
SEOW is NOT an online war competition, like AFW, or FS etc, that you just register for and fly in.
I was just wondering, whether SEOW could be set up in a similar fashion using a dedicated co-op server. Let's say the server is programmed to run a standard 1-hour mission always every 2nd hour. Then have half hour for planning, another half for briefing, and then launch again the next mission on sharp time, no matter what, in order to execute the planned missions and let the clock go go go, just like in real war (would put significant time pressure on commanders, as in real life).

In this case, such set up would provide SEOW playability round the clock, round the globe, any day, every second hour on the same server host every time. This way, the simulated time could span really several days and weeks in a campaign (or even months). (NB. Looking at mautsi2's campaign link, they played a lot of missions (51), for 4 months, but the campaign clock proceeded only 4 days. Time compression effect http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif )

In my view, AFW and its precursors were wastly popular until cheating/bias accusation started to tear them apart. So it might be interesting to bring SEOW to the "crowds". Unless the intention is to keep it for a well-trained and well-organized 'elite' deliberately http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Talamir
08-11-2007, 01:11 AM
For those of you who enjoy commanding campaigns/operations or such, I recommend you try this.

http://www.matrixgames.com/games/game.asp?gid=294

The Dec. 7th 1941 - March 31st 1946, you are in almost complete control of the entire war in the pacific.

mautsi2
08-11-2007, 08:55 AM
Kuban Campaign was something different to our older fights we've had.

In older battles the ground war really did not work as we hoped,all except tanks,other units where quite pathetic in combat use.They where usually just slaughterd in trucks on transport.

So we separated ground movement from airmissions to their own hours.
Ground movement started the day and airmissions would follow them on even hours 8,10,12...

We actually flew only 24 missions,the other 24 missions where the ground war missions we also planned in close detail.

Before everything always moved on the same one hour,this made some pretty BIG missions that some pilots had BIG problems with.
We actually ran out of waypoints one time for ground units http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif (wrong setting in dcs and big heavy map of gulf of finland.)

Now there was no problems with big mission files that could crash pc:s.And you could have bigger armies in campaigns.

It also changed the ground war,intel information was always behind real events.
Ground units could fight their own war and make or break situations on hotspots.
This also helped German side because the Russians have the IL-2 that in capable hands can turn the tide on the ground by destroing many many targets.As Ju-87 or Bf-110G isn't a match in ground attack action to it's Russian counterpart.

Also this gave more feeling that the airforce was supporting the huge land army making it's own operations and not a campaign run by the airforce that the army was just following.

VFsMA_Justus (LLv16) should release the Kuban campaign set when he has made the after action report maybe...

LLv16_Jager

FourShades
08-11-2007, 06:40 PM
On rnzoli's point, SEOW can be configured to run a mass-market 24x7 war if desired. There now exists inside SEOW integrated support for rnzoli's own DSC coop server, which means that SEOW campaigns can be automated on a 24x7 coop server. Several groups are offering such services now, including 102nd and SE Xtreme. Of course, human command input is still required in SEOW, but the mission building and statistical analysis is automated through the coop server. That takes a load off mission hosts and admins.

Cheers,
4Shades