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Arm_slinger
10-06-2004, 06:45 PM
One of the crew from the HMCS Chicoutimi has died as a result of the incident at sea.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/3719760.stm

I wonder how the Royal Navy feels now, all four boats have had faults now.

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-sad.gif

Arm_slinger
10-06-2004, 06:45 PM
One of the crew from the HMCS Chicoutimi has died as a result of the incident at sea.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/3719760.stm

I wonder how the Royal Navy feels now, all four boats have had faults now.

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-sad.gif

-HH- Beebop
10-06-2004, 06:52 PM
Condolences to his family. It takes a brave and special person to be a submariner.

My prayers for the safe return of the rest of the crew.

Maple_Tiger
10-06-2004, 06:59 PM
This is a sad day for sure.

I feel sorry for his family.

I'm also a shamed of our government.

VW-IceFire
10-06-2004, 08:39 PM
They should never have bought the subs in the first place. It seems they have been sitting around too long to be worth it...especially now.

I guess accidents happen but all 4 of them have had trouble. Seems a little odd.

Hopefully the RN can rescure the rest of the crew and tow it back to the naval yard.

lil_labbit
10-06-2004, 08:43 PM
http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif they said "no casualties" on the news over here...

Deepest regards to his family, colleagues and friends.

Zatorski
10-06-2004, 09:33 PM
Poor guys, they are in a sub without propulsion, in 5+ meter waves. I listenned to the CBC tonight, previously all reports were that several crew had smoke inhalation, now one has died, a father with two children. Listenning to the latest CBC report with a PR guy from the Canadian Navy, they are having a terrible time securing a tow line.
I can only think of the submariners aboard right now in freezing temperatures, smelling an electrical fire, knowing that one of their own is not alive. My prayers are for them, the family of the deceased and the Royal Navy to overcome all the obstacles and rescue our guys.

lil_labbit
10-06-2004, 09:43 PM
Canadian prime ignorant said the temperature onboard was 20 Celcius...

Zatorski
10-06-2004, 09:47 PM
you might be right about 20 degrees, I heard they have one diesel engine running now. Last night I heard a report of 4 degrees C.

Regardless, I am sure the atmosphere on the boat is dismal.

woofiedog
10-06-2004, 11:35 PM
http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-sad.gif May God Bless his Family Over Their Loss.

Jasko76
10-07-2004, 04:46 AM
Which class does the damaged sub belong to? I know it's a diesel-powered attack submarine (SS) but nothing beyond that.

This acciedent is another remainder that subs are dangerous even in peacetime. No way I would ever serve on one of these steel tubes. 30 000 German submariners lost in WWII springs to mind directly...

tHeBaLrOgRoCkS
10-07-2004, 04:54 AM
My collegue informs me they were origionaly 'upholder' class but are now called 'Victoria' class.

ELEM
10-07-2004, 05:14 AM
History of the type and past and present names here...

http://www.submarineheritage.com/gallery_t2400.htm

Jasko76
10-07-2004, 05:18 AM
Thanks, ELEM. I suspected it would be one of the Upholders. They are quite new and modern boats.

jensenpark
10-07-2004, 05:23 AM
Tragic loss. I feel sorrow for the family.
My uncle spent his entire adult life in the Canadian Navy, commanding several ships. It is a very small community, the Navy. I'm sure they are all feeling this loss.

I agree with you MapleTiger. I too am ashamed of our government. Typical arrogance, incompetence and corruption. Just like the Sea King helicopter issue.

Jasko76
10-07-2004, 05:31 AM
Could you guys explain this issue with Upholder-class boats. As I understand, this is not a sole occurence, there have been other breakdowns, right?

Heavy_Weather
10-07-2004, 07:30 AM
why would they wanna buy subs anyway? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/blink.gif

jetsetsam
10-07-2004, 09:00 AM
Those submarines should have been painted yellow before they were turned over to Canadian forces. I'm sure British officials were giggling when they took their Canadian allies for chumps as they sold us the lemons, probably with the Beatles singing Yellow Submarine in the background.

And who pays the price for Canadian bureaucratic gullability and incompetence? Just like the helicopter fiasco, where uncounted Canadian service peoples lives have been endangered and some lost, now a brave sailor has lost his life serving his country and many others injured, possibly with life-long disabilities.

This tragedy wouldn't have happened if the procurement idiots and manipulating politicians had also been serving their country, rather than serving themselves.

And now a young family has lost their husband and their dad. My thoughts and prayers are with them, and with the crew that remain on that storm-tossed vessel.

Thank you to the British Navy for the ongoing efforts to bring the stricken vessel and crew to safe harbour.

Jasko76
10-07-2004, 09:03 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Thank you to the British Navy for the ongoing efforts to bring the stricken vessel and crew to safe harbour. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

They're sort of obliged to help, aren't they?

Slick750
10-07-2004, 09:09 AM
Those subs are ****, we knew it when we bought em. Why the hell do we need those old subs anyway (unless we start sinking fishing boats in our waters)?

Zatorski
10-07-2004, 09:37 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Slick750:
Those subs are ****, we knew it when we bought em. Why the hell do we need those old subs anyway (unless we start sinking fishing boats in our waters)? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

To add insult to the situation, the news today strongly suggested that China and North Korea have diesel-electric subs, Britain and the Americans are all nuclear and it would be real handy for Canada to have the diesel subs for wargames.

NorrisMcWhirter
10-07-2004, 09:43 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Slick750:
Those subs are ****, we knew it when we bought em. Why the hell do we need those old subs anyway (unless we start sinking fishing boats in our waters)? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

According to BBC news, that's precisely what the subs were for; fishing monitoring and general surveillance.

Cheers,
Norris

scootertgm
10-07-2004, 09:59 AM
I feel for the loss of the crew member.

Looks like they ignored one of the oldest "Unwritten Laws" of the navy... Never rename a ship, it's bad luck...

quote: "Formerly the HMS Upholder, the sub was renamed after a Quebec city"

Chuck_Older
10-07-2004, 10:34 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Slick750:
Those subs are ****, we knew it when we bought em. Why the hell do we need those old subs anyway (unless we start sinking fishing boats in our waters)? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

There's plenty of bad blood in the commercial fishing community about US fishing vessels trawling the Banks where they shouldn't, if I recall correctly.

Just because the subs are not nuclear powered, that doesn't mean they are 'antique' or otherwise not modern.

horseback
10-07-2004, 01:26 PM
It was my understanding that modern diesel subs are actually capable of being quieter than nuclear powered subs-assuming, of course, that the crew is competent.

It is my understanding that the USN and RN have decided that rather than have a 'two-tiered' training system for submariners (nuke submarines having astoundingly tight engineering/safety requirements for the whole crew), to simply stay with the nuclear standard for their submarine fleets.

In any case, as a former sailer, my heart goes out to those men and their families. God grant they return home safely.

cheers

horseback

ploughman
10-07-2004, 04:18 PM
Condolences for the dead officer, apologies for selling you four bone subs.

SSKs, diesel subs, are deadly silent when they are running on batteries but have limited endurance which makes them mostly littoral threats to the SSNs that rule the open oceans. Nuclear powered subs need to keep coolant pumps running which limits how silent they can be but they can ramp up the power and sprint in a manner that SSKs can't, at least not for long, which gives SSNs an advantage in movement. Additionally, SSNs take advantage of their size and virtually unlimited power to run sensor arrays that would drain an SSK in minutes. The former USSR states, India, China, and North Korea, as well as Israel and various European states all operate SSKs or the even more dangerously silent non air dependent powered subs (check out the Swedes, not just cute but dangerous too). The Upholder class boats were effective in that they were long range diesel subs with an 8-week cruise period. Considering the size of Canada and the majesty of its littoral waters this would have been an advantage. The Upholder class boats were very highly rated during their initial commissions as RN subs, it is a tragedy that they have fallen so low and claimed the life of one of their own.

Kampfmeister
10-08-2004, 10:18 PM
My deepest condolences and sympathy to the family of the dead crewman, as well as to all the rest of the Canadian submarine community http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-sad.gif. As an ex-Bubblehead myself I can relate to their loss, and the risks they take everyday taking those sewer pipes out to sea. I served on both a diesel and nuclear boat. My fondest memories however are of my first boat, which was a diesel-electric, and the oldest boat in the fleet at the time. We had a few close calls ourselves, but luckily never sustained any casualties. I also knew one individual that I had served with that later died because of a battery fire while serving on board another diesel boat.

Don't write off diesel boats too quickly. In the right hands, even the oldest can be a match against a modern SSN, and still more than a match for any surface vessel. I've seen that first hand. They're also a lot cheaper to build, maintain, and operate than a nuc boat.

Mashie_Nibblick
10-08-2004, 11:46 PM
My condolences to Lt. Saunders' family, crewmates, and friends.

blairgowrie
10-09-2004, 03:30 PM
It will be very interesting to see the results of the two Commissions of Enquiry that have been ordered by the Canadian Naval Authorities. The first to determine the cause of the fire and the other to determine how Lt. Saunders died.

It is my understanding that the Upholder Class boats were excellent although it was recognized that there were great risks associated with the re-commissioning.

I am more than a bit disappointed in the press and Govt. Opposition reaction. I am sure the Canadian Navy was fully behind the decision to acquire these subs and I hope the results of the Enquiries vindicate the decision to buy them in the first place.

The death of Lt. Saunders was indeed tragic but also mystifying given his training and aids available to him (such as oxygen masks). We really need to know what caused his untimely death

Slick750
10-09-2004, 05:08 PM
I'm sure chineese subs are superior, or will be with all that french technology. Boats are probably cheaper to maintain for maritime patrol,if i remember many in defense where critical about the subs, but deal went on. Accidents are normal, but every sub had problems.

Arm_slinger
10-09-2004, 07:42 PM
It certianly brings it all closer to home for me personally. I hope to be serving in the Royal Navy in a couple of years as an Engineering Officer, i may well find myself shoved down a Sub

Maple_Tiger
10-09-2004, 08:23 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by jensenpark:
Tragic loss. I feel sorrow for the family.
My uncle spent his entire adult life in the Canadian Navy, commanding several ships. It is a very small community, the Navy. I'm sure they are all feeling this loss.

I agree with you MapleTiger. I too am ashamed of our government. Typical arrogance, incompetence and corruption. Just like the Sea King helicopter issue. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>



What realy pisses my off, is that our governemnt told us lies to begin with.

Now, our govnernment looks like a bunch of liars.

Shame on them for trying to cover this up.

They should be removed...by force.

SkyChimp
10-09-2004, 08:29 PM
I think the United States will be concentrating on littoral waters capabilities for some time to come. Increased Chinese submarine capabilities suggest this is the wise course. The number and increasing capabilities of Chinese shorter range, littoral water boats requires that the USN turn from the excellent blue-water Los Angeles and superb Sea Wolf to subs that are more at home in shallow coastal waters. The newest Virginia class promises to be just the boat for that purpose.

The increasing submarine capabilties of China, North Korea, and south Asian nations call for a new class of boat. From the little that I know, the Virginia is not quite on par with the Sea Wolf in blue water capabilities, but apparently is superior, and in-part specifically designed for, shallow water operations.

USS Virginia
This is the sub that will keep the Straits of Taiwan open
http://www.marinelog.com/IMAGESMMIII/vaclass.jpg

Slick750
10-10-2004, 09:14 AM
Yea, the sea king is often blammed as a another mistake. My brother flew it once, likes it. He complains about the "griffon", says the huey was more trustworthy, like an old econoline compared to a jeep cherokee. He's in the 438th in St-Hubert Quebec. I read about the chinese navy, it's growing like mushroosms, gonna duke it out with Taiwan i'm afraid. BTW all this sub talk reminds me Silent hunter3's commin out soon.