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XyZspineZyX
08-18-2003, 02:41 PM
Dammit!

I just come from a session online trying my fav bird, the Dora. As a result I'm pretty p*ssed. It's now a worthless POS. Try to do anything and the damn bird is going to stall on you. I never even got to try the firepower because I always stalled before being able to shoot at anything.

Crap crap crap and crap.

Now I really have to practise.

Oh and before you say I don't know how to fly: I know that. And even then, I don't stall any other plane as much as the fnebbing D9. Wish my fav plane was the P47. At least that plane is a great plane in FB.

Nic

XyZspineZyX
08-18-2003, 02:41 PM
Dammit!

I just come from a session online trying my fav bird, the Dora. As a result I'm pretty p*ssed. It's now a worthless POS. Try to do anything and the damn bird is going to stall on you. I never even got to try the firepower because I always stalled before being able to shoot at anything.

Crap crap crap and crap.

Now I really have to practise.

Oh and before you say I don't know how to fly: I know that. And even then, I don't stall any other plane as much as the fnebbing D9. Wish my fav plane was the P47. At least that plane is a great plane in FB.

Nic

XyZspineZyX
08-18-2003, 02:43 PM
I dont have a plane that is "my plane".
So then which plane can I not whine baout?



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XyZspineZyX
08-18-2003, 02:44 PM
Doras are of no use in turn fights - learn to fly her properly, anyway ... *GGGGG*

XyZspineZyX
08-18-2003, 02:45 PM
You could jump on the P-47 bandwagon hellcat, its pretty popular in there and you could probably slip in unnoticed. /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

<center>http://rageman.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/sigs/su25.jpg </center>

XyZspineZyX
08-18-2003, 02:46 PM
Is the 262 still really good? I dont have the patch.

-----------------------------------
Uh no sig

XyZspineZyX
08-18-2003, 02:46 PM
I fought a Yak, you think I would try to turnfight it? You see, if you fly straight the whole time, there is a point where you will not see any other plane. And if you continue, eventually you'll even go out of the map. So you have to turn a little at least see what I mean?

Nic

eskimo-FHmod
08-18-2003, 02:47 PM
my favourite plane is the bf109e what have they done to it. i stand no chance !!

<centerhttp://homepages.ihug.com.au/~peabody/ihugSig.jpg (http://www.fhmod.com)

XyZspineZyX
08-18-2003, 02:47 PM
If your favorite plane sucks, or if you are just not good, whine to Oleg like everyone else here does!

~Tate

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XyZspineZyX
08-18-2003, 02:50 PM
I love the power of free speach, it allows us to find out who the real spoons are.

<center>http://rageman.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/sigs/su25.jpg </center>

XyZspineZyX
08-18-2003, 02:51 PM
Good answer Nic!

The A8 is about the same too, appears to have a stall envelope rather than a flight envelope.

Time to relearn for me too!

And that is not T'n'B ing either!

XyZspineZyX
08-18-2003, 02:52 PM
Rageman wrote:
- I love the power of free speach, it allows us to
- find out who the real spoons are.

There is no spoon...



--
Joques
Ok, so you've got a Yak
That don't impress me much

XyZspineZyX
08-18-2003, 02:53 PM
Problem with it is it's instability especialy when firing. All russian fighters fire "recoilless" MG, compared to german fighters. Compare the recoil when firing MG on Dora with Yak3. How in the world Yak3 was a more stable fire platform when its MGs generated more recoil and Dora was much heavier than Yak3?


<center> http://www.stormbirds.com/images/discussion-main.jpg </center>

XyZspineZyX
08-18-2003, 02:54 PM
DAMN!!!, how in hell am I to enjoy my soup then :'(, CURSE YOU!, CURSE YOU ALL!!!

PS the fly in my soup is WAY undermodeld.

joques wrote:
-
- Rageman wrote:
-- I love the power of free speach, it allows us to
-- find out who the real spoons are.
-
- There is no spoon...
-
-
-
-
---
- Joques
- Ok, so you've got a Yak
- That don't impress me much



<center>http://rageman.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/sigs/su25.jpg </center>

eskimo-FHmod
08-18-2003, 02:55 PM
i demand the 109e be made faster, turn and look better. according to my grandpas diary entries it was completely different and he should know, he fought in ww2.
if the changes are not implemented to my specifications i shall boycott ubi products from now on. how dare distribute a game as cartoonish as this one and call it a simulation. OUTRAGEOUS.

<centerhttp://homepages.ihug.com.au/~peabody/ihugSig.jpg (http://www.fhmod.com)

XyZspineZyX
08-18-2003, 02:59 PM
On the note of recoil, the weapons on the Yaks are fitted through and around the engine, whilst the weapons on most of the german fighters are on the wings, if the weapons on the wings are not synchroed then you are gonna get a lot of yawing motion whilst the yaks whos weapons are closer to the center of gravity will have very little.

[edit: yes I do realise that the german fighters have weapons around and through the engine.]

<center>http://rageman.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/sigs/su25.jpg </center>

Message Edited on 08/18/0303:00PM by Rageman

XyZspineZyX
08-18-2003, 03:01 PM
Rageman wrote:
- On the note of recoil, the weapons on the Yaks are
- fitted through and around the engine, whilst the
- weapons on most of the german fighters are on the
- wings, if the weapons on the wings are not synchroed
- then you are gonna get a lot of yawing motion whilst
- the yaks whos weapons are closer to the center of
- gravity will have very little.


I was talking about cowling mounted MG, on Yak3 and Dora. Test them and tell if it is normal what you see.
Also compare 20mm cannon (firing through prop hub) on Bf109 and Yak3 and explain here the yaw motion. I'm always interested in learning new facts about our physical world.


<center> http://www.stormbirds.com/images/discussion-main.jpg </center>

Message Edited on 08/18/0309:03AM by Huckebein_FW

XyZspineZyX
08-18-2003, 03:04 PM
Having never flown any sort of armed plane I dont think im in a position to declare whats "normal".

[edit: it also seams im in no position to spell too]
<center>http://rageman.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/sigs/su25.jpg </center>

Message Edited on 08/18/0303:06PM by Rageman

XyZspineZyX
08-18-2003, 03:04 PM
Nicolas,

The Dora is an excellent bird and quite dangerous, it's simply a matter of flying it properly. Everything with the luftwaffe planes is about maintaining your E and the Dora is no exception.

I can personally attest to the excellent handling of the plane since I fly it almost exclusively since FB came out. It has bad stall characteristics for sure, but the trick is to fly with a light hand on the stick and use patience when attacking. It is not for the rapid low level turn and burn, its more of a thinking man's plane so to speak. I rarely pull more than 1/3 of maximum turn rate, and therefore almost never stall or get slow.

It does not matter if the bandit is on your 6, there is no need to pull high G manuevers. You have the best roll rate in the game to work with, getting in tune with how to use it best will enable you to avoid energy wasting flat turns and still be able to evade fighters on your 6. Combine that with phenonenal dive rate and impressive climb and by using all 3 together, you can work yourself out of almost any situation.

Take another look at it...if you adopt the right mindset for it, you may very well realize what powerful plane that it really is. It has been my favorite since I was a kid and something I waited for eagerly since the orginal IL2...I haven't been disappointed in the least.

Salute,



TX-Zen
Black 6
TX Squadron CO
http://www.txsquadron.com
clyndes@hotmail.com (IM only)

XyZspineZyX
08-18-2003, 03:05 PM
i played with my ms sidewinder stick settings and all 190s fly smoothly... send me pm and will send you conf.ini



<center>http://www.kurita.sk/PRIVATE/pictures/sig_il2.jpg

eskimo-FHmod
08-18-2003, 03:08 PM
but seriously. i havent found any problems with the 190. they might be a bit twitchy and you occasionally stall but nothing you shouldnt be able to handle.

(bloody keyboard batteries seem almost empty)

<centerhttp://homepages.ihug.com.au/~peabody/ihugSig.jpg (http://www.fhmod.com)

XyZspineZyX
08-18-2003, 03:10 PM
Rageman wrote:
- Having never flown any sort of armed plane I dont
- think im in a position to declare whats "normal".


On the other hand you can tell which one should suffer more from recoil problems and these are the russian fighters.


<center> http://www.stormbirds.com/images/discussion-main.jpg </center>

XyZspineZyX
08-18-2003, 03:11 PM
Always have a spare corded keyboard at the ready, its bad when you're GF walks in the room and you're batteries run out whilst trying to alt-tab away from the donkey pic's....


or so a friend tells me... /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-indifferent.gif

<center>http://rageman.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/sigs/su25.jpg </center>

Message Edited on 08/18/0303:17PM by Rageman

XyZspineZyX
08-18-2003, 03:15 PM
Thats cos im using a little common sense and some very basic physics.

the equation is...

W = B + C

where
W = Wobblyness
B = Bangyness
C = the distance from the Center of moveyness

ergo more wobblness is the sum of bangyness and the distance from the center of moveyness. /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

Huckebein_FW wrote:
- Rageman wrote:
-- Having never flown any sort of armed plane I dont
-- think im in a position to declare whats "normal".
-
-
- On the other hand you can tell which one should
- suffer more from recoil problems and these are the
- russian fighters.
-
-
- <center> <img
- src="http://www.stormbirds.com/images/discussion-m
- ain.jpg"> </center>



<center>http://rageman.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/sigs/su25.jpg </center>

XyZspineZyX
08-18-2003, 03:38 PM
Wicked humour Rageman!

Also worth noting:

Likelyhood of cordless batteries failing during dodgey surfing increases exponentially when married.....

I read that somewhere........

/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif


Back On Topic.

Jurinko may have something with the Joystick settings.
Did the patch reset them?
Has anyone looked?

XyZspineZyX
08-18-2003, 03:45 PM
There are no fnebbing problems with the Focke Wulfs. They seem to be stall prone now because the "cement elevator syndrome" from FB 1.0 has been fixed.

Learn how to fly! /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

"I find your lack of brains disturbing"
http://ourworld.cs.com/Demolisher%20SWE/signature01.jpg
Former Würgerwhiner extraordinaire

XyZspineZyX
08-18-2003, 03:46 PM
Rageman wrote:
- [edit: yes I do realise that the german fighters
- have weapons around and through the engine.]

That, and the wing weapons on the D9 are synchronised, since they are in the wing roots.

Btw Zen, good post, but I am quite familiar with the Dora and how to fight in it, as I flew it almost exclusively since the release of FB. I only gripe about the stalling (that I find excessive) after the patch. The 190s were supposed to be easy and comfortable to fly.

Maybe they just mixed up the stall model of the P39 and the one of the 190?

Nic



Message Edited on 08/18/0304:50PM by nicolas10

XyZspineZyX
08-18-2003, 03:48 PM
i thought the dora was only AI ?

XyZspineZyX
08-18-2003, 03:52 PM
Demolisher_ wrote:
- Learn how to fly!

Asshat. Next time I'll see you in the dude's server I'll teach you how to fly /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-tongue.gif

Nic

XyZspineZyX
08-18-2003, 03:56 PM
nicolas10 wrote:
-
- Demolisher_ wrote:
-- Learn how to fly!
-
- Asshat. Next time I'll see you in the dude's server
- I'll teach you how to fly
-
- Nic
-
-

Bring it on /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif



"I find your lack of brains disturbing"
http://ourworld.cs.com/Demolisher%20SWE/signature01.jpg
Former Würgerwhiner extraordinaire

XyZspineZyX
08-18-2003, 03:58 PM
Friday or Saturday... around midnight.

Nic

XyZspineZyX
08-18-2003, 04:01 PM
This is not the place for this backa nd forth, you tools. You know better.

Sheesh!


/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

~Tate

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XyZspineZyX
08-18-2003, 04:04 PM
Well, I've read a lot of posts and I find that is an interesting fact, that it seems that ALL OUR favourite planes have been ruined with the new patch, and ALL OUR OPPONENTS' aircraft seem to have been improved to have an advantage on us.

Weird, isn't it? /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif

There's a Spanish saying that reads:

"It never rains so that everybody's pleased"



- Dux Corvan -

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XyZspineZyX
08-18-2003, 04:06 PM
nicolas10 wrote:

-
- Btw Zen, good post, but I am quite familiar with the
- Dora and how to fight in it, as I flew it almost
- exclusively since the release of FB. I only gripe
- about the stalling (that I find excessive) after the
- patch. The 190s were supposed to be easy and
- comfortable to fly.
-
- Maybe they just mixed up the stall model of the P39
- and the one of the 190?
-
- Nic


I'm not sure about that. By no means do I claim to be a flight model expert, but after 18 months of playing both versions of the game, I'd say that the stall appears to be modelled correctly, at least based on all the things I've read through out my life (and many details posted here as well). The frequency of the stall is another matter perhaps, but not the specifics of the behavior.

I've just found that with the FW, it's predictable, controllable and fits like a good old pair of tennis shoes. I often use the stall modelling to force an overshoot for example because it is so predictable and am always concious of stick pull to avoid it. I fly close to the edge in many ways, but frankly when flying the FW's I fly more like a bomber pilot than a dogfighter...wide easy turns, nothing hasty, always with an eye on the speed.

I don't presume to be the expert on the plane, but I've flown them all since day 1 of the old game and have seen their ups and downs...I'd be more than happy to discuss what I've seen with you offline, I'm sure you have some valuable insight as well.


S~ again,





TX-Zen
Black 6
TX Squadron CO
http://www.txsquadron.com
clyndes@hotmail.com (IM only)

XyZspineZyX
08-18-2003, 04:11 PM
Well I don't really make gentle turns. I usually climb roll and change direction that way in a fight. Now when you climb the plane retains a lot of energy compared to before. So much that you can finish a loop way over 300kph, which was difficult before.

I'll have to find some new joystick settings. Maybe that's what makes it so twitchy. The odd thing is that until now I never needed to tweak joystick settings for any plane. I even thought the P39 was easy in the original Il2.

The gun platform seems very unstable, but frankly I never really get to try it.

Nic

XyZspineZyX
08-18-2003, 04:12 PM
And the firepower isn't all that impressive either...you really have to stay on target with a good sized burst to bring a target down. Not extremely poor mind you, just less than stellar.

Then again, I'm a really poor shot myself (honestly) so maybe that's why I'm not impressed. It's certainly nothing like a hurricane with 4 hispano's, thats for dern sure.




TX-Zen
Black 6
TX Squadron CO
http://www.txsquadron.com
clyndes@hotmail.com (IM only)

XyZspineZyX
08-18-2003, 04:16 PM
Nicolas,

I was just on the same server as you, I think it was ASRG_dedicated or something. I was flying a Dora as well. I wouldn't even try flying it without FFB, the stall 'envelope' is so wide. With FFB, its a fantastic performer, even turns well - without it...The new FWs probably benefit from FFB more than any other aircraft in the game.

XyZspineZyX
08-18-2003, 04:19 PM
My joystick doesn't have Force Feedback. You mean you can feel the stall in the FFB before it happens, while you can't without it?

Nic

XyZspineZyX
08-18-2003, 04:19 PM
There are a couple of guys that really do the Dora justice in wild dogfighting, Pusssy and LW_Icarp are two the best online FW jocks I've ever met and make it a heck of a stall fighting plane. I myself do not fly that way at all...I am infinitely more conservative.

I would be interested to know more about the specifics of how you handle the plane actually.


The guns are very stable, yes you are right about that. I think the joystick is a big factor with that plane also, my wingman who is not familiar with it complains of it over reacting and over correcting...but I think we've narrowed it down to the stick that he is using, its just more sensitive than other sticks apparently. For the Dora, that seems to be a liability to some extent, she is a responsive bird.

TX-Zen
Black 6
TX Squadron CO
http://www.txsquadron.com
clyndes@hotmail.com (IM only)

XyZspineZyX
08-18-2003, 04:23 PM
Shot,

Thats VERY interesting about the FFB angle...my stick has FFB and I find the Dora a delight to fly.

I wonder if it's that significant? I am quite able to control the stall without FFB, this is my first stick with it and I've only been using it for about 5 days (bought it on a lark really, just to see what its like).

I can't really say right now if the FFB is that big of a deal, but I'll do some informal testing with that in mind and see what I come up with on my own.

TX-Zen
Black 6
TX Squadron CO
http://www.txsquadron.com
clyndes@hotmail.com (IM only)

XyZspineZyX
08-18-2003, 05:11 PM
Yes, FFB makes a great difference in flying FW-190s.

I had lost all FFB with FB (I was using an old MS FFB) and so I had very hard time to fly the D9 correctly but since last June I've a MS FFB2 and the D9 is my fav plane since then.

BTW, I don't think the D9 is much more difficult to fly in 1.1 than 1.0 but on the other hand the Dora'45 is a killer now. /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

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XyZspineZyX
08-18-2003, 05:24 PM
TX-Zen wrote:
- Shot,
-
- Thats VERY interesting about the FFB angle...my
- stick has FFB and I find the Dora a delight to fly.
-
- I wonder if it's that significant? I am quite able
- to control the stall without FFB, this is my first
- stick with it and I've only been using it for about
- 5 days (bought it on a lark really, just to see what
- its like).
-
- I can't really say right now if the FFB is that big
- of a deal, but I'll do some informal testing with
- that in mind and see what I come up with on my own.

Yes I think FFB is a BIG plus with the 190s especially. Its even possible to stall fight vs, say, P-40s...not that that is a good idea at all /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

Actually with the Dora using FFB the stick begins to buffet even if its only pulled back a litle...from there its usually a way to go until a stall, but you really can feel the onset and back off just a little, or drop a notch of flaps.

No kidding, the FFB means you can really push the envelope, the tactile feedback it provides is, for me at least, a lot better than the other warnings FB provides.

I'm finding it a lot more useful than it was with the old IL2.

XyZspineZyX
08-18-2003, 05:30 PM
the doras the top fighter in the game now, out turns and out rolls anyplane in the game. you just need some practice. its roll and elevator effectiveness actually need to be toned down it can fly like a cfs1 mod.


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Good dogfighters bring ammo home, Great ones don't. (c) Leadspitter

XyZspineZyX
08-18-2003, 05:32 PM
I remind you guys that I didn't have any stalling issue with Fb 1.0 and I flew the D most of the time when given the chance.

Nic

XyZspineZyX
08-18-2003, 06:04 PM
I'm with Leadspitter. The Dora is now awesome; maybe too good.

I usually fly a late 190a w/ the mk108 wing cannons. But when there's a lot of furball activity, I take a Dora. I won't stay in a turnfight for an extended period, but the Dora can go a couple of times around with nearly anything VVS before you have to exit and regain E.

Oh yeah, to fly any FW, now more than ever FFB is a very, very good idea. After a little practice, you can ride turns on the edge of a stall; the buffeting is very pronounced.

XyZspineZyX
08-18-2003, 06:11 PM
Excerpt from "Kurt Tank, Focke-Wulf's Designer and testpilot by Wolfgang Wagner"

""The Dora was equal to or even better than most enemy fighters up to about 7000 meters. It climbed better than the Fw 190A, was more manouverable, achieved a higher airspeed, dived faster and could turn inside most enemy fighters.""

People say the Dora in-game is now Uber. Well it was Uber in real life aswell so there is really nothing wrong here. However it's rollrate is very much overmodelled.

http://www.iownjoo.com/freeimghost/robban75/Dora-9-3.JPG


'When it comes to aircombat, I'd rather be lucky than good any day!'