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Defuser
03-20-2006, 01:40 PM
Ok, here we go again. This time I think we should discuss how tactics are to be implemented in the game, on the fly.

Put quite simply, a fast and ergonomic tactical menu is paramount. Easier said than done, but think of Raven Shield's menu. In that, we could use simple directional mouse-tugs combined with mouse-clicks (i.e. we never left the mouse) to order our team. Useful, and a step in the right direction. Mastered, you could be quite fast. But not fast enough, and sometimes there would be moments where you'd require directional awareness outside of looking at the impending doorway. What we need are hotkeys! Cue collective groan at having to memorise masses of key presses... not exactly.

Speed should be the key (no pun intended) here. When we approach a door, there a number of questions;

Do I want to do this loudly or quietly?
What, if any, tactical aids do I want to use?

So, we run up to a door. We have a hotkey for;

1) Loud
2) Quiet

Let's call these 'L' and 'Q' for now. We run up to a door and press 'Q' once. We're now in quiet mode (assuming we were in loud mode beforehand). From here, pressing Q again will pick the lock and clear (or just clear if the door is unlocked), pressing another key, such as Q2, endoscopes the door (and report). Pressing Q3 is just lockpick (which should be inoperable if the door is already unlocked). If you're wondering why there is no pick and flash, or frag etc. it's because these are QUIET options. It is nonsensical to pick a door and then flash the inside. You may as well breach for all the noise you are making... I've never understood the propensity for certain games to have you stealthily pick a lock and then toss a flash in... its nonsensical. Save the key presses!

Now we press L on a door. We're in loud mode. Pressing L again breaches, flashes and clears. Pressing L2 breaches, frags and clears. Pressing L3 breaches, gasses and clears. It is important that the trying of the door is factored into all 3 choices automatically. In doing so, we ignore the rigmarole of having to specifically order to try the lock (I'm looking at you, SWAT), which is an inevitability if we are breaching. The same goes for the quiet options. If you're wondering why there are no simple 'open door and frag' options it's because once the tactical aid is in, YOU'RE GOING IN THAT ROOM. You do not flash a room and then leave it. You do not grenade a room and then leave it. You clear it. You do not wait at the door's entrance to shoot people - you GET IN THE ROOM OR YOU GET DEAD. It's that simple - doorways kill in CQB. Once that door is open, (and the aid is in there), you're going in there whether you like it or not. Otherwise... what's the point?!

It should be important that there be somewhat of a consistency to the key presses. For example;

L KEY IS 1
L2 KEY IS 3
L3 KEY IS 4
Q KEY IS 2
Q2 KEY IS 3
Q3 KEY IS 4

I want to make the important distinction between loud and quiet. There isn't 'loud with shades of quiet' on an operation. Once you are compromised, THAT'S IT. You go in loud or quiet. There's no in between. You are either one or the other, and you either stay quiet all the way through or you get compromised and then stay loud.

One of the things Rainbow games have always done is they have afforded you the forgiveness of being able to be loud without repercussion early in a mission's process. Do you honestly think that gunfire in the Met's foyer would not be heard by the men guarding the hostages? Guns are LOUD. Flashes and frags are LOUD. In a building, unless it was completely closed off with soundproofing, you cannot be ignorant to their detonation. Once charges are set and detonated, you are on a non-stop dash to the hostages, clearing rooms as you go. It is exhilirating. It is fast. It is frightening.

Likewise, if you're stealthing your way in, you move quietly. Stealth should only hold up until you are compromised (i.e. seen, (unsilenced) shots fired, anything that reveals your presence to the tangoes outside of a localised incident - such as shooting a tango with a silenced weapon while he goes for his gun). Then you are forced to go loud and fast. Things should never slow down once you've 'been made'. Things only slow down when the threat is eliminated and the hostages are safe.

In terms of how this works for other teams going about their work, as soon as they hear 'COMPROMISED / WE'VE BEEN MADE' over the comms they immediately switch to loud (if they were quiet) whatever they are doing, regardless of whether they have been planned to continue quietly. Once one team has been compromised, everyone else is too. You've been detected. Quiet is no longer an option. Likewise, you should always be able to switch on a mission to loud and back to quiet, should you wish, provided you haven't been compromised. In this respect, you can be quiet right up to the point you wish to reveal yourself. There should also be a 'global loud' switch. Once that has been selected, and you are compromised, there is no going back.

I should qualify what I mean by compromised;
Anything that reveals your presence to the tangoes at large. Such as an explosion/detonation of ANY kind, any rounds fired without suppressor, being seen and being reported to have been seen.

How does the player get involved? How does the player room clear? Let's say the player wants to be the first into a room. Let's say s/he wants to be the one in after the aid goes in. How do we facilitate this? We move into position. We stand NEXT to the door. Our team stacks behind us. We choose the orders. Now, instead of another operative doing the clearing, it is us. Our proximity to the position associated with the established clearing method dictates our role. The Regiment employs a very basic type of this, and I believe Dayglow has already expressed his desire for something like this. (In The Regiment, if you stack at a door, your teammate gets behind you and shouts 'GO!' when he's ready to clear. You now throw a grenade in IF YOU WISH. According to the position you take, he moves into position on the opposite side while clearing. If you want your teammates to clear, you order them to clear the room. They cannot throw grenades themselves - all grenade duties are performed by you (a major failing in my view, but nevermind). You specify 'grenade and clear' and they stack up. You throw a grenade, they get in there. Doing so, you can NEVER be the second person into a room. You always have to be the first or the third. If you are going to be the first, you have to throw the aid in yourself - and we all know, this isn't how it works in real life.)

This would require ACUTE awareness on the part of the player as to where they should stand while clearing. There is an established order as to who does what while stacked. 1,2,3,4. 1 checks and opens the door, and plants any charges. 2 does the aid. 3 covers 2, 4 is the corridor man. It's that simple. Clearing rooms is at best a 4 man job (possibly with 3, but you're pushing it). Anything less and you're opening yourself up for tactical failure. Depending on where the player is, that's what role they'll play. This would require some spectacular AI, it really would. To make it simple, you should be only able to do roles 1 or 2 (while ordering away from the door, you are 4). Either you are in position to go in first, or you throw the aid and go in after. 1 position is on the side of the door handle, 2 is on the other side. 1 goes in first, followed by 3, followed by 2, followed by 4.

In this respect, there is no interface 'per se'. Maybe an icon at the bottom of the screen indicating our role. If we are quiet/in quiet mode and we approach the door, and give an order we get a small 'Q' and a number as to our role (such as '1' = lockpick/open door, maybe even a small lock icon to make identification easier). If we order a door breach, we see a small 'L' with a '4' indicating we are the corridor man (and maybe an eye to indicated 'cover'). If we stand on the relevant side of the door and order a breach, we are
'L' '2', with a frag (or whatever you ordered). It just allows the player the opportunity to view what is going on if they don't know. Of course this, as with all the HUD, can be turned off for the hardcore player.

I have loads more thoughts about this... Anybody care to jump in with some? Do you think this is a viable way of doing it?

Defuser
03-20-2006, 01:40 PM
Ok, here we go again. This time I think we should discuss how tactics are to be implemented in the game, on the fly.

Put quite simply, a fast and ergonomic tactical menu is paramount. Easier said than done, but think of Raven Shield's menu. In that, we could use simple directional mouse-tugs combined with mouse-clicks (i.e. we never left the mouse) to order our team. Useful, and a step in the right direction. Mastered, you could be quite fast. But not fast enough, and sometimes there would be moments where you'd require directional awareness outside of looking at the impending doorway. What we need are hotkeys! Cue collective groan at having to memorise masses of key presses... not exactly.

Speed should be the key (no pun intended) here. When we approach a door, there a number of questions;

Do I want to do this loudly or quietly?
What, if any, tactical aids do I want to use?

So, we run up to a door. We have a hotkey for;

1) Loud
2) Quiet

Let's call these 'L' and 'Q' for now. We run up to a door and press 'Q' once. We're now in quiet mode (assuming we were in loud mode beforehand). From here, pressing Q again will pick the lock and clear (or just clear if the door is unlocked), pressing another key, such as Q2, endoscopes the door (and report). Pressing Q3 is just lockpick (which should be inoperable if the door is already unlocked). If you're wondering why there is no pick and flash, or frag etc. it's because these are QUIET options. It is nonsensical to pick a door and then flash the inside. You may as well breach for all the noise you are making... I've never understood the propensity for certain games to have you stealthily pick a lock and then toss a flash in... its nonsensical. Save the key presses!

Now we press L on a door. We're in loud mode. Pressing L again breaches, flashes and clears. Pressing L2 breaches, frags and clears. Pressing L3 breaches, gasses and clears. It is important that the trying of the door is factored into all 3 choices automatically. In doing so, we ignore the rigmarole of having to specifically order to try the lock (I'm looking at you, SWAT), which is an inevitability if we are breaching. The same goes for the quiet options. If you're wondering why there are no simple 'open door and frag' options it's because once the tactical aid is in, YOU'RE GOING IN THAT ROOM. You do not flash a room and then leave it. You do not grenade a room and then leave it. You clear it. You do not wait at the door's entrance to shoot people - you GET IN THE ROOM OR YOU GET DEAD. It's that simple - doorways kill in CQB. Once that door is open, (and the aid is in there), you're going in there whether you like it or not. Otherwise... what's the point?!

It should be important that there be somewhat of a consistency to the key presses. For example;

L KEY IS 1
L2 KEY IS 3
L3 KEY IS 4
Q KEY IS 2
Q2 KEY IS 3
Q3 KEY IS 4

I want to make the important distinction between loud and quiet. There isn't 'loud with shades of quiet' on an operation. Once you are compromised, THAT'S IT. You go in loud or quiet. There's no in between. You are either one or the other, and you either stay quiet all the way through or you get compromised and then stay loud.

One of the things Rainbow games have always done is they have afforded you the forgiveness of being able to be loud without repercussion early in a mission's process. Do you honestly think that gunfire in the Met's foyer would not be heard by the men guarding the hostages? Guns are LOUD. Flashes and frags are LOUD. In a building, unless it was completely closed off with soundproofing, you cannot be ignorant to their detonation. Once charges are set and detonated, you are on a non-stop dash to the hostages, clearing rooms as you go. It is exhilirating. It is fast. It is frightening.

Likewise, if you're stealthing your way in, you move quietly. Stealth should only hold up until you are compromised (i.e. seen, (unsilenced) shots fired, anything that reveals your presence to the tangoes outside of a localised incident - such as shooting a tango with a silenced weapon while he goes for his gun). Then you are forced to go loud and fast. Things should never slow down once you've 'been made'. Things only slow down when the threat is eliminated and the hostages are safe.

In terms of how this works for other teams going about their work, as soon as they hear 'COMPROMISED / WE'VE BEEN MADE' over the comms they immediately switch to loud (if they were quiet) whatever they are doing, regardless of whether they have been planned to continue quietly. Once one team has been compromised, everyone else is too. You've been detected. Quiet is no longer an option. Likewise, you should always be able to switch on a mission to loud and back to quiet, should you wish, provided you haven't been compromised. In this respect, you can be quiet right up to the point you wish to reveal yourself. There should also be a 'global loud' switch. Once that has been selected, and you are compromised, there is no going back.

I should qualify what I mean by compromised;
Anything that reveals your presence to the tangoes at large. Such as an explosion/detonation of ANY kind, any rounds fired without suppressor, being seen and being reported to have been seen.

How does the player get involved? How does the player room clear? Let's say the player wants to be the first into a room. Let's say s/he wants to be the one in after the aid goes in. How do we facilitate this? We move into position. We stand NEXT to the door. Our team stacks behind us. We choose the orders. Now, instead of another operative doing the clearing, it is us. Our proximity to the position associated with the established clearing method dictates our role. The Regiment employs a very basic type of this, and I believe Dayglow has already expressed his desire for something like this. (In The Regiment, if you stack at a door, your teammate gets behind you and shouts 'GO!' when he's ready to clear. You now throw a grenade in IF YOU WISH. According to the position you take, he moves into position on the opposite side while clearing. If you want your teammates to clear, you order them to clear the room. They cannot throw grenades themselves - all grenade duties are performed by you (a major failing in my view, but nevermind). You specify 'grenade and clear' and they stack up. You throw a grenade, they get in there. Doing so, you can NEVER be the second person into a room. You always have to be the first or the third. If you are going to be the first, you have to throw the aid in yourself - and we all know, this isn't how it works in real life.)

This would require ACUTE awareness on the part of the player as to where they should stand while clearing. There is an established order as to who does what while stacked. 1,2,3,4. 1 checks and opens the door, and plants any charges. 2 does the aid. 3 covers 2, 4 is the corridor man. It's that simple. Clearing rooms is at best a 4 man job (possibly with 3, but you're pushing it). Anything less and you're opening yourself up for tactical failure. Depending on where the player is, that's what role they'll play. This would require some spectacular AI, it really would. To make it simple, you should be only able to do roles 1 or 2 (while ordering away from the door, you are 4). Either you are in position to go in first, or you throw the aid and go in after. 1 position is on the side of the door handle, 2 is on the other side. 1 goes in first, followed by 3, followed by 2, followed by 4.

In this respect, there is no interface 'per se'. Maybe an icon at the bottom of the screen indicating our role. If we are quiet/in quiet mode and we approach the door, and give an order we get a small 'Q' and a number as to our role (such as '1' = lockpick/open door, maybe even a small lock icon to make identification easier). If we order a door breach, we see a small 'L' with a '4' indicating we are the corridor man (and maybe an eye to indicated 'cover'). If we stand on the relevant side of the door and order a breach, we are
'L' '2', with a frag (or whatever you ordered). It just allows the player the opportunity to view what is going on if they don't know. Of course this, as with all the HUD, can be turned off for the hardcore player.

I have loads more thoughts about this... Anybody care to jump in with some? Do you think this is a viable way of doing it?

Woosy
03-20-2006, 02:18 PM
That is very confusing.http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/blink.gif

Defuser
03-20-2006, 02:22 PM
Do you mind if I ask in what way? I'm intrigued as to me it seems simpler than the method used in the SWAT games, a little less complicated than Raven Shield (and faster), and it allows you to get involved with room clearing in a variety of ways. Let me know where I've gone wrong, so we can work towards a better solution.

ruled
03-20-2006, 02:41 PM
im gonna have to be blunt and say that it one of the dummest ideas ever thought up of.
we don't wanna have guys getting confused and trying...actually wasting their time thinking about what kind of door ish they are going to use.
plus that will dramatically change/slower the gameplay(rs,rvs etc(not ld)) and thats a bad thing :0
there are enough keys in this game which will make it hard for many new/inexperienced/first-timers and olddies aswell that make this game a tricky and tatical game. it is easy to get used to it, but i don't think we should be overwhelmed with unecessary secnarios

KungFu_CIA
03-20-2006, 02:57 PM
Defuser:

I think you have too many ideas crammed into one post.

I think you are trying to make the point there should be more realism in terms of how sounds are implemented in the game which would add a more realistic element of consequences if you are spotted, or make enough (loud) noises which will alert the Tangos more than in past games.

This is a valid concern.

However, your methodology for implementing this is overly complicated as I use only TWO to FOUR buttons in SWAT 4, 99.9% of the time while playing SP. I call this the "Five Man Squad, Four Button" model and even suggested the devs implement something similar to this on the Council Forums for R65.

In my opinion, SWAT 4 is how game/GUI Ergomomics should work most of the time.

Heck, if SWAT 4 really wanted to be cutting-edge, they would have included voice commands like in R63 for the Xbox which would completely forgoe ANY hot keys and leave only movement, fire, reload, item selection and environment interaction keys which is still less than 10.

Woosy
03-20-2006, 03:02 PM
Well in Rainbow Six you know you have the global modes like assault and recon? Wouldn't it be better to put a team in to one of those depending if you wanted stealth or loud breah. Then when you issue a command it automaticaly goes by it's mode that so recon it will do stealth breah assault it does loud but giving you an option to do for each seem simpler.

Room clearing would be better done in teams of two, it's confusing with 4 who's going to do what, that way even if your wingman flashes or you flash you will always be first or second in with the simple task of covering their blind spot, and it's still fun, and realistic. With 4 it's a little too complex to remember where they're going to go. I found on The Regiment me and the wingman was adeqate and not too mind blowing, With SWAT4 I didn't have a worry because I was last in but didn't say where they would go or where I should cover. I guess you need diagrams to really explain the room breach or a tutorial in-game the best one is The Regiment, because there is so many different types from two man to 5 man breach to open door breach etc it's alot to take on two is simple I think while the other two guard outside and watch for on coming bad guys.

I understand how compromised works from stealth to full assault the rest is a bit to hard to take on in a game, too many options for tactics takes to long to order, like SWAT4 interface if it had been like RVS I could display a command in an instant on a door. Where as swat I had to bring up a gui and then use my mouse pointer to go down a list it was annoying as somtimes it didn't fully click. Where as the regiment and rvs is huge menu move mouse and click its fast and its easy.

Defuser
03-20-2006, 03:06 PM
Looks like this one is crashing and burning! I don't understand the criticism that it's making the game more complicated, though. Everything I have stated is no more or less complicated than Raven Shield's system, but instead I have moved the commands to hotkeys, and attempted to give the player the option to join in with room clearing as opposed to only ordering.

You see, in Raven Shield, you make the order to room clear based on whether you want to be loud or quiet. If you want to be loud, you breach, you frag, flash or gas and clear. If you want to be quiet, you lockpick and clear. What I have done is introduced a game mechanic where you are either compromised or you are not. If you are compromised, you go loud. If you are not, you have the option of going quiet.

This is all controlled with hotkeys that are no more or less complicated than Raven Shield's system - you simply specify what you want with keys instead of dragging the mouse. This way we don't need to take control away from the player at a crucial time. I really can't make it sound any simpler than that because it IS simple.

In addition to this, I want to be able to give the player THE OPTION of clearing a room themselves. Again, in this initial iteration this may SEEM a bit complicated but we can work on hammering out a better way.

Perhaps its better to say that room clearing is always conducted in the same way for a 4 man team?

1: OPENS AND PLACES CHARGES
2: USES TACTICAL AID
3: COVERS NUMBER 2
4: CORRIDOR MAN (COVERS TEAM)

This is how it is done in real life. By giving the player the option of SIMPLY standing on either side of a door and giving an order AS NORMAL they then have the option of going in first, or tossing in a tactical aid THEN going in. The position you stand in is fairly explicit - ON THE SIDE WITH THE HANDLE (1) ON THE SIDE WITHOUT THE HANDLE (2). It is that simple!

It may seem complicated if you don't know how a team works, but this has never really been attempted before in a Rainbow game - it is one aspect in which the series is lacking. I'm simply trying new ideas, and hoping to come up with a way of streamlining the demands on the player to facilitate them.

ADDENDUM: Having seen some of the other posts, the order the player goes in is dictated by their position.

1: GOES IN FIRST
3: GOES IN SECOND
2: GOES IN THIRD
4: GOES IN FIRTH

This due to 2 having to switch back to their primary before entering, so 3, who is directly behind 2, goes in after 1, and clears the opposite side to 1. 2 then moves into the room on the side of 1, and 4 follows into the room on the side of 3.

It could be similar to 'The Regiment' in that wherever 1, if they are the player, goes, 3 goes to the opposite side. If you are 2, you join 1 on the left hand side. I'll go and grab a diagram to show you what I mean!

Defuser
03-20-2006, 04:01 PM
Forgive the quality of these diagrams - I'm quite obviously NOT an artist but these should give you an idea what I'm on about!

http://img476.imageshack.us/img476/3453/doorbreaching3sd.jpg

This demonstrates how a 4 man team clears once the room has been breached and a tactical aid goes in.

http://img93.imageshack.us/img93/2914/breachingpositions6ng.jpg

Here's that in (pseudo) 3D. Note the position of the grenader and the breacher.

http://img93.imageshack.us/img93/5734/louddemo4ti.jpg

Here's how my 4 button LOUD/QUIET hotkey system works (with onscreen/HUD prompts if you want them). This one is for LOUD.

http://img93.imageshack.us/img93/7260/quietdemo2xu.jpg

This one's QUIET.

http://img93.imageshack.us/img93/2032/fragging1ri.jpg

This one shows how the player would be a part of breaching and clearing, in position 2, for example.

Hope this helps clear up any misunderstanding!

d_gunz
03-20-2006, 09:55 PM
in R6 games Ive always wanted to be able to kick a door open.... http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

DreamMarine
03-21-2006, 02:28 AM
Hey Defuser,

thanks for all your great input. I see that you are a real big R6 fan. I am serious!

The pics are cool! Though I afore knew what you meant. I read a book about delta force, and there they described how they clear a room with four operatives. And they actually act quite the same way as you described it. It's a kind of choreography they use. And they are even taking into account how (in what order they go into the room) they gain the most psychological effects on the tangos to confuse them. Very fascinating and interesting! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

But here comes the question into play how far we want to go with reality! In my case I would tend to the real part as you described it, but it would have to be implemented very user friendly - and in some way just as an option, so that other players are not FORCED into something.

You would have to combine this with that kind of extensive R6 training how it is described in another thread.


But I personally have a big problem with this kind of discussions at this moment:

It's very interesting! And I love to see that other R6 players care as much about the "REAL" gameplay of R6 as me! And I would like to contribute my own precise ideas about gameplay!

BUT:
We discuss here a lot without knowing even A BIT in what direction the development team of R6:5 is bringing the game. It might actually be, that 90% of our ideas are futil just because it will never be made this way!

I don't want to demand more precise informations from UBI at this moment, since they told us that we'll get those informations when the time has come. Ok, let's hope it will be this way.

Until then, I realize that probably NO ONE of us is integrated in the development process. I'm afraid, I think even the council isn't! So there is no point for me in planning so much in-depth. (@council: please correct me if i am wrong!!!)

Also a lot of arguments from some threads (i.e. about respawns) are probably without substance since we don't no anything about the way the development plans to implement the gameplay!


I don't want to be a spoiler! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif Of course, it's fun to dream about a perfect R6, and it actually might influence the development process to some extend. But everytime I am starting to think about it in-depth, I tell myself: What should I build my thoughts upon if NOTHING is for sure?

Even some BASIC questions the development team of UBI actually IS desciding about right now would be of help: I would know that it's a REAL question at hand we are thinking and discussing about and that we are not talking completely off theme.


DreamMarine

Defuser
03-21-2006, 08:11 AM
Oh I understand the feeling only too well - until recently I felt in much the same position, and that any contribution is utterly futile. If anything, I think it's good to get down on paper what I think the ultimate R6 game should be. I like to be able to think and challenge myself with little tasks that require some lateral thinking and some appreciation of good game design. I enjoy the simple fact that we can come onto this board, as fans, and post our thoughts on what we think would make the next R6 sequel great. In addition to that, I especially like the fact that we can honestly and openly critique each other's ideas and work together to come to a single design vision.

Quite apart from it having any impact at all on the future of the series, I find it immensely enjoyable and a nice distraction from whatever it is I am supposed to be doing with my time! I don't honestly expect any of my ideas to be incorporated into the game, if any do I'll consider it a bonus. In the meantime, I'll continue to post until either the conversation dries up or I find something better to do. But right now, I'm enjoying this.

Relenquish
03-21-2006, 09:55 AM
Well I dont think real special forces are quite as rigid as, 2nd MUST deploy the tac aid. But to implement it into SP is would probably have to be a very rigid system. In the video interview with the ex-SAS advisor for the regiment he said it really depends on the situation. The advantage real SF peolple have is being able to practise everyday with the same peope covering all possibilities. That kind of adaptability can not be put into a game. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif Even if the AI could do it the player wouldnt have a clue what was going on.

I think Swat 4 implements these kind of commands very well. I have not tried the expansion yet but it will be interesting to see how they control 2 teams at the same time.

As for if we should bother talking about this stuff at the moment. Well seen as the devs could still be deciding the direction of the game, perhaps this is the most important time to put our ideas on the table for them to see.

Best Regards

Woosy
03-21-2006, 11:54 AM
I understand what you mean the same system SWAT 4 has but it's still too confusing and too slow, can you imagine clearing 20-30 rooms like that? What if it was on a ship or a plane? where you cannot get two people through the door way, what if the door is open how will the other person get to the other side? And the player has to remember where to go in the room in those different situations, it's too much.

It's easier doing what the SAS do, split a 4-6 man team in to fire teams of 2 persons you clear rooms faster. Doing it the swat 4 way on the iranian embassy would of taken alot longer with that SWAT 4 tactic, certain situations you need to improvise. You only need to rely on your AI in a fire team of two, in The Regiment it's easy to understand and real to life, if he flash bangs you cover his ARC, you flash bang he covers yours, it's that simple, and its fast. If a door needs opening, drill the locks off with bullets. The rest of your 4 man team can be room clearing other rooms at the same time, and any order will make them regroup back in to a squad after they have done their last room clear. That is far more efficient then the other way, and far more easier for the player to understand.

Different Special Forces do different tactics, I notice Delta, Navy Seals,CIA, LAPD and the FBI use the exact same tactics, I think they have been trained in the same place? Around the world the tactic is simular for breaching but not done exact same, somtimes first man in the stack with use shotgun and breach flash and others go in some drill the locks flash and go in, others go in pairs some use their backup team to blow off the doro and primary team assaults etc...

I would think that since Rainbow Six train in hereford with the SAS use the same killing house that the SAS use, their tactics would be simular or very much a carbon copy. Added some videos to the thread of different forces doing cqb, japanese rawk!! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

SAS (http://photobucket.com/albums/v406/Woosy/Videos/?action=view&current=SASCQB.flv)
Japan SDF (http://youtube.com/watch?v=saMMKKmOpEk&search=cqb)
Compiled Special forces (http://youtube.com/watch?v=kGG3djVGeSA&search=cqb)
Navy Seals (http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-3059970038137297260&q=navy+seals)
Spanish Special Forces (http://youtube.com/watch?v=AaN0RxDj5kE&search=cqb)

Yen Lo
03-21-2006, 12:11 PM
It depends on if your burdened by having to SAVE lives, or if your not burdened by having to SAVE lives(i.e. the Military and the threats). The Military gets the benefit of training 24x7 when they arent at war. The civilans, at least in the US, except for the LAPD and Miami PD, I believe, cant. Because those two units are the only full time civilan SWAT teams in the US.
Who know how Delta Operates, since there is no footage of them anywhere, except for Mogidishu(outside the target house) in action. Iam sure you realize when you read accounts of special units in action, they do change there description of actual tactics.

KungFu_CIA
03-21-2006, 12:55 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Yen Lo:
Iam sure you realize when you read accounts of special units in action, they do change there description of actual tactics. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I just wanted to comment on what Yen Lo said.

This is true.

All the "tactics" you see in video games like R6, SWAT 4 and Full Spectrum Warrior are out-dated and not in use any more for obvious reasons...

One, as technology and training evolves so do more efficient ways of handling things and two, this is one of the benefits of living in a "free society" in the public is granted a quasi-inside look into Special Forces and SWAT team tactics via video games and their advisors, but even the advisors have their limits and will never incorporate current or evolving tactics that are in use today for security reasons.

Defuser
03-21-2006, 03:03 PM
To be honest, what we get (in terms of leftovers) is as near as we're ever going to get. At least they have some form of authenticity to them, even if they are out of date, and in fact, have been used at one point in time. Although it is somewhat jarring to know that the techniques on display are either inauthentic or outdated, they seem to do the job pretty well, in that they are believably realistic, if not real.

What do you guys think to the idea of getting involved in room clearing, aside from being the lead man? Previous Rainbows have had us, when we want to room clear, do the grenading ourselves and then the team follows us in. With skillful and quick application of the quick command menu in Raven Shield you COULD (but only just) setup room clearing for yourself (in that the AI opened and grenaded and then you ran in, just after asking them to rejoin you), but you needed to be fast on the draw... Do you think there's anyway this can be improved?

Yen Lo
03-21-2006, 05:19 PM
IMHO if you cant hit what your aiming at, dont matter what tactics you use, your all going to die. Which brings me to another point. Ubi needs to develope training that accruately reflects in game (both sp and mp) conditions. IMHO, you need to continue to move, while being able to hit what your aiming at. I like Pistols and Teamshadow killhouse for this. Depending on the Ubi map, may or may not be anycover available.

KungFu_CIA
03-21-2006, 05:56 PM
The more and more we discuss this the more I think R65 should include Voice Commands for the SP portion.

Why?

Not only is it more realistic and immersive, but the fact is the player doesn't have to mess with any kind of order interface like the rose from Raven Shield, or the drop-down menus from SWAT 4.

"Open, Flash and Clear", or "Flash and Clear" can be said in less than three seconds by anyone in a reasonably understandable manner and it works well in R63 for Xbox -- Which is why I am surprised Raven Shield didn't add it in a subsequent patch because if we keep talking about "realism" and ways to further immerse the player, then we also need to really start thinking about HOW to do this as well http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

I also agree with what Yen Lo said and that is there needs to be training that actually trains you how to do things you're going to need in the game OTHER than just how to command your team, move around, etc.

Yen Lo
03-21-2006, 07:47 PM
Yeah I was playing the Swat Exp. and that drop dwn menu while comprehensive, really a chore to use, esp. in a gunfight. Plus if you get to say a word, like clear so the game knows you said it, and can diff. between yours and another it would make the game flow faster. Approach a door, say wand, theres supspects, say breach bang and clear, clear the room. You dont pick the wrong command by mistake.
Who knows if Ubi will ever decide to make a game that complicated though.
I think alot of those commands are there cause the Cops have to try to save lifes, so who knows what R6 would actually need to "Git R Done" as they say.

Imparfait
03-24-2006, 12:45 PM
RB6 isn't about saving terrorist lives. Eliminate your badgers and save your doves.

Room clearing drills aren't rigid, but there are defined methods for entry, the ones posted by defuser are incorrect.

In RL there is a plan in place before hand, no "commander" stands back and instructs people to open doors flash etc. You see a door you stack up. The first man dictates how the room will be cleared.

What you must understand is that clearing an objective is one continuous method, SF forces have enough personel to deploy link men, and rear security as they take an objective unlike most SWAT forces (which tend to approach smaller objectives with a completley different mandate).

Video games have to make up for the fact that the player has a level of training not even remotely close to what it needs to be, and doesn't understand the actual situation as it should be. To make up for this, command lists and older rigid methods of clearing are put in.

And no one picks locks before breaching a room... (maybe in SWAT but it is rather impractical, and still makes lots of noise.)