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View Full Version : Devs, nerf finally that Black Prior !



PNgamerGER
02-26-2019, 06:09 PM
Hello,

topic says all. This Hero is so overtuned and i hope the Devs realize that too.

mann61299
02-26-2019, 07:13 PM
Hello,

topic says all. This Hero is so overtuned and i hope the Devs realize that too.

Are you overly successful beating everyone else when you play AS a black prior?...or are you upset that you get beat playing AGAINST a black prior?

V1vson
02-26-2019, 08:55 PM
In my first PB game I winl vs 31 lvl conq. Just with one combo;) BALANCE!

Cyroy95
02-26-2019, 09:02 PM
The only real overtuned thing is the damage after a bash, which should be lowered a bit. other then that they should fix late blocking guaranteeing bashes and he'll be fine.
His dodge is about twice as easy to dodge as Conq's so it's just a matter of getting used to. (twice as easy meaning the window in which you dodge both the undelayed and delayed bash, while being able to counter gb a guard break is twice as big as with Conq's bash)

ChampionRuby50g
02-26-2019, 09:15 PM
In my first PB game I winl vs 31 lvl conq. Just with one combo;) BALANCE!

Mustnít have been a very good Conc then.

EvoX.
02-27-2019, 12:04 AM
The only real overtuned thing is the damage after a bash, which should be lowered a bit. other then that they should fix late blocking guaranteeing bashes and he'll be fine.


Yeah, let's just leave a 600ms recovery bash in the game. Seems like a great idea for a 500ms bash that practically has no stamina cost and confirms damage to be unpunishable by 99% of the roster.

How about no.

Ubiflowessence
02-27-2019, 12:40 AM
i don't have any info other than that Black Prior is being looked into. I've seen talk around the community mostly that his shield bash should be looked into as far as being lowered. I'll keep an eye on this thread as feedback to continue to share with the team.

Does everyone else agree that Black Prior's shield bash is the most frustrating aspect of his character when playing or thinks he's fine as is?

LuckyStrikerLHP
02-27-2019, 01:26 AM
I think this sums it up.. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_FtEt8QUckM

Knight_Raime
02-27-2019, 02:01 AM
i don't have any info other than that Black Prior is being looked into. I've seen talk around the community mostly that his shield bash should be looked into as far as being lowered. I'll keep an eye on this thread as feedback to continue to share with the team.

Does everyone else agree that Black Prior's shield bash is the most frustrating aspect of his character when playing or thinks he's fine as is?

I feel that's a double edged question. His bash is a bit of an issue. But he has other balance issues. Particularly him being able to leave his stance in 100ms lets him essentially not have to worry about feint into guard break. Which is supposed to be his counter. It's also not particularly balanced to let him have block instantly on a dodge as that shuts out 400ms attacks on reaction which isn't intended.

On the other hand his dash forward heavy needs to be buffed. Both it's damage when it cc's and it's range/tracking. It also wouldn't hurt to lessen the recovery on his soft feint bash and increase the range on his forward bash.

Cyroy95
02-27-2019, 02:01 AM
Yeah, let's just leave a 600ms recovery bash in the game. Seems like a great idea for a 500ms bash that practically has no stamina cost and confirms damage to be unpunishable by 99% of the roster.

How about no.

Sure, it's fine if they make it punishable but they should also bring it up to par with Conq's bash in that case with how hard it is to dodge. It's very nice you snippet the most important piece of my argument out where I mention the Prior's bash is twice as easy to dodge as the Conq's, making it punishable would make it a unviable move in it's current state. Because you snippeted it out so nicely last time I'll repeat it again: with twice as easy I mean that the window in which you can dodge both the undelayed and delayed bash, while being able to counter gb a guard break is twice as big as with Conq's bash

EvoX.
02-27-2019, 02:42 AM
Sure, it's fine if they make it punishable but they should also bring it up to par with Conq's bash in that case with how hard it is to dodge. It's very nice you snippet the most important piece of my argument out where I mention the Prior's bash is twice as easy to dodge as the Conq's, making it punishable would make it a unviable move in it's current state. Because you snippeted it out so nicely last time I'll repeat it again: with twice as easy I mean that the window in which you can dodge both the undelayed and delayed bash, while being able to counter gb a guard break is twice as big as with Conq's bash

It's definitely not twice as easy to dodge than Conq's, I thought you were kidding with that part. What you're talking about is something that you can't consistently do, it's not a large enough window that you can just muscle memory in. It's like me saying you can dodge on reaction to Conq's forward dash, avoiding buffered bash and GB, and roll on reaction to a possible delayed bash, avoiding everything a Conq can do. The Prior player can always just do buffered bash or empty dodge into zone, effectively giving him the same mixup and negating that window. Then you're at the drawing board.

Then there's also the fact your focus against a Conq is entirely on his bash/GB mixup once you leave your guard top, drastically increasing your chances of properly reacting to him, especially with the new and buffed dodge. With Prior you don't have 600ms lights to completely disregard and you have 2 additional UB's to decrease your decision reactions even more.

In practice, the bashes are more or less the same. Just multiplying Conq's dodge-all-options-window by 2 and saying Prior's bash is therefore twice as easy to dodge is not a very good point.


making it punishable would make it a unviable move in it's current state.

You mean like every single other bash in the game that's punishable yet guarantees less/is more difficult to land? I think I'm done here. Even Raime doesn't think leaving it unpunishable is healthy game design. I'm very glad you're not a developer of this game.

ArchDukeInstinct
02-27-2019, 04:32 AM
Sure, it's fine if they make it punishable but they should also bring it up to par with Conq's bash in that case with how hard it is to dodge. It's very nice you snippet the most important piece of my argument out where I mention the Prior's bash is twice as easy to dodge as the Conq's, making it punishable would make it a unviable move in it's current state. Because you snippeted it out so nicely last time I'll repeat it again: with twice as easy I mean that the window in which you can dodge both the undelayed and delayed bash, while being able to counter gb a guard break is twice as big as with Conq's bash

And Conq gets the 20 damage light after bash too then, right?

And what's with this "twice as easy to dodge" stuff? You just wait until Conq flashes orange and you side dodge, especially with the recent buff to dodging making every bash more reactable.

Knight_Raime
02-27-2019, 05:05 AM
And Conq gets the 20 damage light after bash too then, right?

And what's with this "twice as easy to dodge" stuff? You just wait until Conq flashes orange and you side dodge, especially with the recent buff to dodging making every bash more reactable.

Check freezes video talking about bashes being easier. There is a 300ms window to dodge all timings on priors bash versus conqs where its 2 frames to dodge all bash timings.

Cyroy95
02-28-2019, 12:19 PM
And Conq gets the 20 damage light after bash too then, right?

And what's with this "twice as easy to dodge" stuff? You just wait until Conq flashes orange and you side dodge, especially with the recent buff to dodging making every bash more reactable.

Like I said in my initial post, 20 damage is indeed overtuned and needs balancing. Seems like actually reading someone's entire argument isn't your strong suit. As for the "twice as easy to dodge part" just check Freeze's video on it, like Knight_Raime said. Before calling moves "broken"or "OP" get some information on the frame data, dodge timings and whether GB's can be teched if not more, because it's clear you're too ill-informed to make calls on that matter. Since you were already too lazy to read my entire argument, I'm going to assume you're too lazy to watch a video as well so I'll put the numbers down here for you:

Important Info:
Latest moment to dodge a bash: 133ms before impact
Earliest moment to dodge Conq bash: 600ms before impact
Earliest moment to dodge Prior's bash: 700ms before impact
Guaranteed dodge timing is the timing between the earliest moment you can dodge a delayed bash and the last moment you can dodge the earliest bash

Conquerer:
Earliest Bash:
Dodge startup: 0ms
Bash startup: 100ms
Bash hit: 600ms (Note: 600ms-100ms = 500ms = the entire bash)

Delayed Bash:
Dodge startup: 0ms
Bash startup: 500ms
Bash hit: 1000ms

Earliest dodge for delayed bash: 1000ms - 600ms = 400ms
last moment dodge for undelayed bash = 600ms - 133ms = 467ms

Guaranteed dodge window + GB tech: Between 400ms and 467ms = 60ms window = 2 frames

Black Prior:
Earliest Bash
Dodge startup: -100ms (-100ms because of the inherent poor tracking of BP's bash you can predodge it 100ms earlier compared to Conq's bash)
Bash startup: 100ms
Bash hit: 600ms (Once again 600ms - 100ms = 500ms = the entire bash)

Delayed Bash:
Dodge startup: -100ms (-100ms because of the inherent poor tracking of BP's bash you can predodge it 100ms earlier compared to Conq's bash)
Bash startup: 500ms
Bash hit: 1000ms

Earliest dodge for delayed bash = 1000ms - 700ms = 300ms
Last moment dodge for undelayed bash is 600ms - 133ms = 467ms

Guaranteed dodge window + GB tech: Between 300ms and 467ms = 167ms window = slightly more then 5 frames.

5 frames is more then twice as much as 2 frames, which means it's about twice as easy to dodge. Is it clear now?

Faithly88
02-28-2019, 12:58 PM
his damage is completely over the top, eating 40 damage or just 20 but not being able to punish is unhealthy, oath breaker is ridiculous.

Spend some time trying to fight one as an assassin it's boring and insulting.... nerf.

Siegfried-Z
02-28-2019, 01:08 PM
BP need light finisher slight dmg nerf and a bigger recovery on his SB. Otherwise he is ok.

Sweaty_Sock
02-28-2019, 08:38 PM
His entire light bash light combo does 35 damage - with unblockables now doing damage into the 50's it doesn't really seem that out of line?

Conq has a side dodge bash making it a dodge punish. BP does not, meaning with BP its either a dash forwards, or heavy feint to start, both are very obvious - - if hes not doing either of these things match his stance to block his lights?

The issue for me is how easy he can allguard/flip EVERYTHING and is being used to gank people in 4 v 4 modes (you stand near the enemy & just flip them when they do any attack that clips the BP & he'll flip, even if not aimed at him) - this seems an exploit that needs fixing (make his flip follow parry rules in terms that the enemy must be locked onto you to activate it)

Ubiflowessence
02-28-2019, 11:21 PM
Thanks for the response everyone! I'll share this feedback with the team.

ArchDukeInstinct
03-01-2019, 04:52 AM
Like I said in my initial post, 20 damage is indeed overtuned and needs balancing. Seems like actually reading someone's entire argument isn't your strong suit. As for the "twice as easy to dodge part" just check Freeze's video on it, like Knight_Raime said. Before calling moves "broken"or "OP" get some information on the frame data, dodge timings and whether GB's can be teched if not more, because it's clear you're too ill-informed to make calls on that matter. Since you were already too lazy to read my entire argument, I'm going to assume you're too lazy to watch a video as well so I'll put the numbers down here for you

Well first off, I never actually called Prior's bash OP, which is a pretty ironic mistake to make for someone who claims I didn't read their argument.

Really had you bothered to fully read and fully comprehend my post then you would realize how it already addresses your argument but apparently your strong suit is taking work that other people do, acting like you're now somehow an authority on the issue because you watched a video, and then fail to realize the bigger picture even when it's clearly pointed out to you.

Anyway to reiterate for you and others, your argument's overall point is moot because with the recent buff to dodges you can already dodge Prior's and Conqueror's bashes on reaction to the bash itself starting because the iframes begin much earlier now. So while the window to avoid both buffered and delayed bashes on the same timing might be larger for Prior, it's unnecessary to use a timing that avoids both bashes and the GB in the first place.


Guaranteed dodge window + GB tech: Between 300ms and 467ms = 167ms window = slightly more then 5 frames.

5 frames is more then twice as much as 2 frames, which means it's about twice as easy to dodge. Is it clear now?

So basically Cyroy's idea is to hit a 5 frame window every time you think a bash is coming to avoid every possible option that might happen. This however is not necessary like I explain, you can instead wait until you see a highly telegraphed bash start and dodge on reaction to it

Cyroy95
03-01-2019, 08:11 AM
Well first off, I never actually called Prior's bash OP, which is a pretty ironic mistake to make for someone who claims I didn't read their argument.

Really had you bothered to fully read and fully comprehend my post then you would realize how it already addresses your argument but apparently your strong suit is taking work that other people do, acting like you're now somehow an authority on the issue because you watched a video, and then fail to realize the bigger picture even when it's clearly pointed out to you.

Anyway to reiterate for you and others, your argument's overall point is moot because with the recent buff to dodges you can already dodge Prior's and Conqueror's bashes on reaction to the bash itself starting because the iframes begin much earlier now. So while the window to avoid both buffered and delayed bashes on the same timing might be larger for Prior, it's unnecessary to use a timing that avoids both bashes and the GB in the first place.



So basically Cyroy's idea is to hit a 5 frame window every time you think a bash is coming to avoid every possible option that might happen. This however is not necessary like I explain, you can instead wait until you see a highly telegraphed bash start and dodge on reaction to it

I will admit mistakes where I make them, I misread your first sentence, which lead to a hasty conclusion from my side, my apologies for that. But your argument at no point addressed mine and you calling the dodge-timing argument moot, is a moot point of it's own. While it is true that since the BP bash fix, I-frames occurred earlier in the dodges, if you had watched the most recent warriors den, you would've known that that was an unintentional side-effect of the fix they had deployed and will be reverted back.

And those 5 frames, might sound short, but for For Honor that's quite a large window, especially considering how well telegraphed his bash is.

Knight_Raime
03-01-2019, 12:16 PM
Sure, it's fine if they make it punishable but they should also bring it up to par with Conq's bash in that case with how hard it is to dodge. It's very nice you snippet the most important piece of my argument out where I mention the Prior's bash is twice as easy to dodge as the Conq's, making it punishable would make it a unviable move in it's current state. Because you snippeted it out so nicely last time I'll repeat it again: with twice as easy I mean that the window in which you can dodge both the undelayed and delayed bash, while being able to counter gb a guard break is twice as big as with Conq's bash

Just note that while i am quoting you specifically this response to you is as much of a response as it is to Both Evo And Arch since my name has been used a few times in this thread. You do have a fair point about BP's bash having double the window to dodge all of his timings. But that's only half of the situation. His bash also has very poor tracking which I know you know. But just stay with me here. I'm not sure what you mean exactly by you not wanting it to be punishable. I assume you mean with a dodge into guard break. If that is the case I sort of agree.

Currently both dodge into GB and dodge attacks (some of them) can technically punish the bash. But both are basically prediction based because of the 600ms recovery time. I think that dodge into GB should still remain a read. Like warlord's headbutt. But I do think the recovery should be adjusted by 100ms to allow the faster dodge attacks in the game (zerk, shaman, etc) should be able to punish it more consistently and the not so good dodge attacks be more able to probably work.

And this would be fine. Because you can dodge into his zone. Which is a seperate time compared to his buffered bash and it has good tracking. Meaning even though dodge attacks would be closer to a reaction they would still have to make a correct read on your forward dodge. And bash after light is another read because you can instead go for a bullwark heavy feint into buffered bash to counter their wrong read.

As for the comparison of Conq vs BP's bash it needs to be stated that neither are easy to counter. We already know why for BP. But with Conq (which I hope Arch is aware of being a conq main) has two methods in which to make his bash game harder to read. The first is charge heavy input> dash cancel (nearly at the same time) into another dash for buffered bash. This beats prediction dodges for the delayed bash. The other plays around with the heavy being fully charged. You can still do your whole dodge out of this for the normal buffered bash or delayed bash. But in addition to that you can soft feint the charge heavy with a guard break input to do a different timed bash. It has great tracking and recovery and beats prediction dodges attempting to dodge the delayed bash. And of course if you can muster the input you can still threaten with a cancel into GB.

Basically both characters have a variety of tools to make their bash based offense hard to react to/punish. So I don't think it's really clear cut either way on which is easier to deal with.

ArchDukeInstinct
03-02-2019, 05:16 AM
As for the comparison of Conq vs BP's bash it needs to be stated that neither are easy to counter. We already know why for BP. But with Conq (which I hope Arch is aware of being a conq main) has two methods in which to make his bash game harder to read. The first is charge heavy input> dash cancel (nearly at the same time) into another dash for buffered bash. This beats prediction dodges for the delayed bash.

Frankly, I've mostly played Nuxia these last few months however I've still been aware of those recent Conq techs found on the competitive reddit. I'm just going to reference what I've said about them previously https://forums.ubi.com/showthread.php/1997901-How-to-punish-failed-BP-bash?p=13959243&viewfull=1#post13959243


The other plays around with the heavy being fully charged. You can still do your whole dodge out of this for the normal buffered bash or delayed bash. But in addition to that you can soft feint the charge heavy with a guard break input to do a different timed bash. It has great tracking and recovery and beats prediction dodges attempting to dodge the delayed bash. And of course if you can muster the input you can still threaten with a cancel into GB.

By the way, you don't even need to be fully charged to use the shield uppercut from the charging/charged state, you can go into it as soon as you start charging, so basically just hold down the heavy button and immediately guard break. I've been aware of it since last year and tried to implement it into my playstyle but didn't really get any success with it.

The benefit would be that shield uppercut is ambiguous with a buffered forward dodge bash (delayed bash will obviously be telegraphed by the dodge) and dodging thinking it's a buffered bash would mean you would definitely get hit by a shield uppercut. However ignoring the buffed dodges (which is now going to be reverted), many people consider it too late to dodge if you can see the bash itself starting so there's no point in trying to dodge if its too late (or at least many would consider it to be too late), since shield uppercut is 800ms there is ample time to realize it's a different bash and dodge during the appropriate window.

EvoX.
03-02-2019, 06:42 AM
However ignoring the buffed dodges (which is now going to be reverted), many people consider it too late to dodge if you can see the bash itself starting so there's no point in trying to dodge if its too late (or at least many would consider it to be too late), since shield uppercut is 800ms there is ample time to realize it's a different bash and dodge during the appropriate window.

That tactic wouldn't be effective against regular players who counter Conq's SB game by predicting every option. It's more so against the low reaction time players, a profile most pros seem to fit. Since they can consistently dodge his bash on the UB symbol and almost never fall for delays/GB's, this becomes Conq's only actual mixup, though I seem to remember backwalking + backdodging puts you out of range even for the uppercut. Not sure about that one.

The other tactic is just a way to not get guardbroken on a missed delayed bash. Personally, I haven't found it particularly useful.

ArchDukeInstinct
03-02-2019, 10:01 AM
That tactic wouldn't be effective against regular players who counter Conq's SB game by predicting every option. It's more so against the low reaction time players, a profile most pros seem to fit. Since they can consistently dodge his bash on the UB symbol and almost never fall for delays/GB's, this becomes Conq's only actual mixup, though I seem to remember backwalking + backdodging puts you out of range even for the uppercut. Not sure about that one.

The other tactic is just a way to not get guardbroken on a missed delayed bash. Personally, I haven't found it particularly useful.

Yeah that's what I figured. That mixup from the charged state is only going to come into play against people who dodge the bash on reaction, but if they can dodge the bash on reaction then there's so much less viability in Conqueror's offense against them to begin with.

dinosaurlicker
03-02-2019, 07:19 PM
No idea how whether or not he needs to be nerfed is even a discussion. Clearly he needs more nerfs. Heís not even fun to play as, so why are you defending him? Itís literally just bash spam. This guy is basically a conq ditto. Itís no fun to play against either. Iím to the point where I just close app whenever I see more than 2 BP on a team because fights are 0 fun against him.

Knight_Raime
03-03-2019, 02:46 AM
Frankly, I've mostly played Nuxia these last few months however I've still been aware of those recent Conq techs found on the competitive reddit. I'm just going to reference what I've said about them previously https://forums.ubi.com/showthread.php/1997901-How-to-punish-failed-BP-bash?p=13959243&viewfull=1#post13959243



By the way, you don't even need to be fully charged to use the shield uppercut from the charging/charged state, you can go into it as soon as you start charging, so basically just hold down the heavy button and immediately guard break. I've been aware of it since last year and tried to implement it into my playstyle but didn't really get any success with it.

The benefit would be that shield uppercut is ambiguous with a buffered forward dodge bash (delayed bash will obviously be telegraphed by the dodge) and dodging thinking it's a buffered bash would mean you would definitely get hit by a shield uppercut. However ignoring the buffed dodges (which is now going to be reverted), many people consider it too late to dodge if you can see the bash itself starting so there's no point in trying to dodge if its too late (or at least many would consider it to be too late), since shield uppercut is 800ms there is ample time to realize it's a different bash and dodge during the appropriate window.

Oof. I apologize for not seeing your initial reply that you linked to.
That's cool to know.

I will just have to take your word on it. I don't play conq really. And the tactics/information that I get about conq are largely from Thornbush whom i'm sure you know of. He's supposedly used both things i've mentioned against other competitive players to fairly decent success. My post about the bash really wasn't to try and side with anyone here. Rather than explain that from what I know both bashes seem relatively difficult to deal with once you consider other aspects of the kit.

LostDarknight
03-04-2019, 09:00 AM
Do the team even test play new characters.I mean they should test it good instead of rushing to add new hero into game.Its a 'cancer' hero :D

rottmeister
03-04-2019, 12:15 PM
Can his bash even be countered (on reaction)? I have no issues dodging the bash (most of the time) but the follow up I do always gets countered. I've been using Nuxia the most and every time I correctly predict a bash and either go for a GB or dodge light, I always get CGB'ed or blocked. :/

Vakris_One
03-04-2019, 12:38 PM
Can his bash even be countered (on reaction)? I have no issues dodging the bash (most of the time) but the follow up I do always gets countered. I've been using Nuxia the most and every time I correctly predict a bash and either go for a GB or dodge light, I always get CGB'ed or blocked. :/
It cannot be punished on reaction to seeing the bash and dodging. You can only punish it if you make a correct prediction and dodge early enough.

This video highlights how that works:

https://youtu.be/qUhLOC1kC_8

EDIT: I should add that there are 3 characters that can punish BP's bash on reaction. Those 3 are Conq, Warden and Raider. Conq and Warden have a side dodge into bash and Raider has a side dodge into GB.

Knight_Raime
03-04-2019, 08:34 PM
Can his bash even be countered (on reaction)? I have no issues dodging the bash (most of the time) but the follow up I do always gets countered. I've been using Nuxia the most and every time I correctly predict a bash and either go for a GB or dodge light, I always get CGB'ed or blocked. :/

Conq and raider can on reaction. Conq because his bash has strong tracking. Raider because he's a cheater that can cancel his dodge with a GB/CGB.
Warden and shinobi are a mix up. Warden can start charging his bash which forces BP to figure out what to do. Shinobi has to do his first dodge on forward dodge timing to land the double dodge kick. But BP could see this coming and simply empty dodge. Neither really get a confirmed punish here.
Shaman AFAIK is the only other hero who can maybe do it on reaction. But you're back dashing into a buffered bash for it. And the timing is mega strict.

Everyone else is basically prediction because it has to be done on tight timing to the forward dodge and he can simply empty dodge and respond to your punish or dodge into zone. So techinically it's always a "read" for everyone (except conq and raider.) But the recovery should be tweaked by adding 100ms onto it so it's more consistently punishable when you do actually read his offense right.