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Pirschjaeger
09-05-2005, 05:43 AM
Hi Gib,

I know you are a modeller and a good one at that. I have always been curious about how modelling a plane for a sim is done. I'm guessing you basically, but accurately, draw the plane in one dimension, such as a blueprint. Then drop the file into a program that makes your work 3 dimensional. After that it's just detail work. Then you submit it to have the plane animated (FM).

Anyways, that's my assumption but keep in mind, I know zip about this.

I thought it might be interesting to start a thread where you could enlighten us on how it's done and maybe answer questuons from the curious.

If you have time and don't mind doing this it would be nice if you could also post some step by step work, from start to finish.

For those that like to give Gibbage a hard time, please don't do it in this thread.

Fritz

Pirschjaeger
09-05-2005, 05:43 AM
Hi Gib,

I know you are a modeller and a good one at that. I have always been curious about how modelling a plane for a sim is done. I'm guessing you basically, but accurately, draw the plane in one dimension, such as a blueprint. Then drop the file into a program that makes your work 3 dimensional. After that it's just detail work. Then you submit it to have the plane animated (FM).

Anyways, that's my assumption but keep in mind, I know zip about this.

I thought it might be interesting to start a thread where you could enlighten us on how it's done and maybe answer questuons from the curious.

If you have time and don't mind doing this it would be nice if you could also post some step by step work, from start to finish.

For those that like to give Gibbage a hard time, please don't do it in this thread.

Fritz

hotspace
09-05-2005, 07:17 AM
Might be wise to post this at CWOS Site m8 as that's where he hangs out most of the time http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Hot Space

Jaws2002
09-05-2005, 07:50 AM
There is a lot of info on this at Netwings (http://forums.netwings.org/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=14)
Tutorials and all. Plus there are allways modelers there to explain how is done.

Cajun76
09-05-2005, 08:03 AM
There's multiple models done, (3?)for differnt damage levels and such, as well as low and high res. Trasition is at about 1km. There may be another layer or two, but I don't recall atm.

Viikate_
09-05-2005, 09:20 AM
I wrote development report of one model for my school's 3D course. It was in finnish but it had lot of pics. Unfortunately I had harddrive crash just few weeks ago, so I don't know if I can find it. I'll go through my mailbox. It might be there.

Viikate_
09-05-2005, 11:02 AM
I couldn't find the report but i took few pics from finished model.

Basicly we can't "draw" the plane and then have it magically transformed to 3D model. It's done 3D all the time. We can have 2D drawings as guides. When model is viewed in wireframe mode without prespective from top, left, right, etc. it should match the 2D blueprints. Basicly modeling is just placing vertices and polygons in 3D space and using different primitives and tools to make it easier.

As you may know, planes in this game are not just one model. This is the cold reality that hit me to the face back in 2002 when I was doing the H75. Oh fok... I gotta do about 20 different planes.
http://sinuhe.jypoly.fi/~71955/pics/all.jpg
So please don't whine to Oleg that why plane x wasn't included? I looks perfect in this screenshot.

LODs (level of detail) explained:
http://sinuhe.jypoly.fi/~71955/pics/lods.jpg

Some LODs in wireframe
http://sinuhe.jypoly.fi/~71955/pics/wireframe.jpg

And of course all models must be cut to pieces correctly so that the plane breaks down nicely.
http://sinuhe.jypoly.fi/~71955/pics/parts.jpg
http://sinuhe.jypoly.fi/~71955/pics/parts_wireframe.jpg

So in Fokker's case, this means 505 different parts, 37635 polygons and 25852 vertices. I must say that making cockpit is much easier, but I know that Gibbage doesn't agree with me http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Gibbage1
09-05-2005, 02:53 PM
I do use blueprints (3 view drawings) but the program does not build the aircraft for me. I must do that myself very much like modeling clay. I start from basic shapes like a cylinder and go from there for the body, and an extruded shape for the wings. Here is an example of some of my latest work and a look on how the 3 views are used. This is not for IL2 or BoB but FS2004.

http://www.gibbageart.com/files/p-38-24.jpg

tHeBaLrOgRoCkS
09-05-2005, 03:02 PM
I recently started looking into this myself and lemme tell you it sure helps you appreciate the amount of work that has gone into producing the current plane set that we have available in il2 and other simulators out there.

If your interested in a step by step guide to moddeling then our very own Stiglr has produced some quite informative videos on the subject over on the targetware forums.

check em out

http://www.targetware.net/modules.php?op=modload&name=P...ile=viewtopic&t=7610 (http://www.targetware.net/modules.php?op=modload&name=PNphpBB2&file=viewtopi c&t=7610)

I have had a go at my own but I am no where near the level required but once you get into it its kinda hard to put down.

One thing I have learnt so far is that good high quality blueprints are an absolute must!

WarWolfe_1
09-05-2005, 03:10 PM
One Q.

You guys ever leave your comps?
I've seen this done at a friend of mines house, hes a outsource for ILM I beleive. He was working on some animal, maybe a cat, and it was talking, all you could see was wireframe moving up and down. Neat though.

Capt_Haddock
09-05-2005, 03:12 PM
It's all very easy Balrog, really. As you say, you just need a good set of blueprints and a lot of patience, that's all http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

http://www.haddock.f2s.com/sig/F19bannerh3.jpg

Viikate_
09-05-2005, 03:32 PM
And lot's of coffee. It help if your also unemployed. But beware. It comes back to haunt you in your sleep. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/784.gif

tHeBaLrOgRoCkS
09-05-2005, 03:37 PM
That was my mistake I was trying to make a model based on proposed design for a Henschel P.75 and the only pictures / blueprints I had were from the luft 46 site (and that is only realy a 3view) http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/cry.gif Those of you who played Crimson skies back in the day probably knew it as a Curtiss Bloodhawk http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/88.gif

http://www.luft46.com/henschel/hsp75.html

The reason I started was I was kinda intrigued as to whether it would be possible to build a Fun based 'Crimson Skies' type mod for Target ware.

But as I mentioned I have come unstuck due to there being no (as far as I know) detailed blue prints of the design so I am having to use a bit more improvisation than I would like (even for a fantasy aircraft) and a complete lack of understanding of how aircraft are put together doesnt help much either lol

Still its fun to play around with and who knows one day I might actualy pull it off.

Of course once you have the model there is the little issue of how the heck you actually get the bloody thing flying in game but I suspect I will have no hair left by the time I figure that one out.

As for the level of detail required by Oleg well I am afraid I have a job and a wife and mortgage to support and that would require at least the sacrifice of two of those and I am not prepared to go that far lol http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/53.gif

carguy_
09-05-2005, 03:46 PM
Very good thread.Show ppl what it takes to make a new flyable/AI 3d aircraft model or a campaign - how much work,patience and passion it takes.

Amazing what some people do for free.

No601_prangster
09-05-2005, 04:01 PM
The Mossie

http://www.ijeremiah.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/mossie/lod.jpg

http://www.ijeremiah.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/mossie/wire.jpg

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/35.gif

Freycinet
09-05-2005, 04:32 PM
viikate, amazing explanation! - hope you don't mind that I copied it to simHQ (I'll take it down if you want of course).

nakamura_kenji
09-05-2005, 04:54 PM
i always impress model quality il-2 (except p-11c >_< ) and apreciate much skill take 3d modeler i also but never make plane for this game but i start soon when get reference for ki-64(look good blueprint)i make fun as practise for bob ^_^

current thing have for another game which work on
cute little BMD-1 apc ^_^

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v492/nakamura_kenji/BMD-1.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v492/nakamura_kenji/BMD.jpg

Enforcer572005
09-05-2005, 11:32 PM
interesting NK, as it looks like youre making
good progress there. This is all way above my head though, but it's impressive.

I can only imagine the amount of work that goes into a ship like the Tirpitz.

Gibbage1
09-06-2005, 03:42 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Viikate_:
And lot's of coffee. It help if your also unemployed. But beware. It comes back to haunt you in your sleep. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/784.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Lol. You have no idea how much it helps to be unemployed! I got fired for doing research on flying wings when I was modeling the Go-229. I built the Go-229, P-80, P-38, P-63, Spit IX and Vb when I was out of work for a few months! Lol. Oleg kept my rent paid, be sure! I was banging out about 1 aircraft per month.

Bearcat99
09-06-2005, 05:26 AM
Geeeeemoniza!! And thats not even putting in the FMs and such....

jds1978
09-06-2005, 06:35 AM
man, this is fascinating!

Deedsundone
09-06-2005, 06:41 AM
Weehaa!,When I see these thing what some guys can do I feel sooo inferior! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif
I guess it´s all about willing to learn,and some talant.

One13
09-06-2005, 11:02 AM
It is interesting to see the amont of work that goes into a model but I have often wondered what does it take to put a model ingame?
What is the process and how long does it take?
How do you make a cockpit work with the external model?

Xiolablu3
09-06-2005, 11:13 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Gibbage1:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Viikate_:
And lot's of coffee. It help if your also unemployed. But beware. It comes back to haunt you in your sleep. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/784.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Lol. You have no idea how much it helps to be unemployed! I got fired for doing research on flying wings when I was modeling the Go-229. I built the Go-229, P-80, P-38, P-63, Spit IX and Vb when I was out of work for a few months! Lol. Oleg kept my rent paid, be sure! I was banging out about 1 aircraft per month. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Great job on those Gibbage, who do you work for now? Do you do 3d modelling full time?

1.JaVA_Razer
09-06-2005, 12:02 PM
IIRC gibbage is in the 3D bizz now http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

BTW gibbage howcome your site went down?

and a LOT of credit is due to the modelers....

as a n00b modeler I once took upon myself to make a bachem natter 349 , I started that model 2 years ago, at this point only 50% is finsished http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif and I'm not n00b it's just the work going into a model is so enourmus and certainly if you wanna do it good. Thats why I'm gonna study multimedia the comming years in hope to one day be a "real" modeler to.

As I said before, 'our' modelers (read the IL2-FB-AEP-PF moderlers) deserve A LOT of respect and gratitude.

The work that goes into research before you can even BEGIN with a basic shape... it's enourmus. Off course I think when I encounterd this problem it was largly my own fault because I had choosen a craft ofwhich only one was still in excistance and ond replica being builth but still.....

BTW don't forget, modelers often use blueprints, and company's don't wanna give away these blueprints. I'd love to get my hands on the G1 blueprints but you need cash to get them from the G1 foundation. So I guess Gibbage and EVERY OTHER MODELER encounterd times when they had to caugh up the money to get blueprints/reference material to make a model FOR FREE for this community.


cheers to the modelers who made this all possible http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

tHeBaLrOgRoCkS
09-06-2005, 12:27 PM
Don't forget also that the software used to do this kinda of thing is also Very expensive and decent hardware doesn't come cheap either http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-sad.gif cheapest software I have found for this kind of moddeling is AC3D which is pretty good considering the price and is what most would call an entry level modeler. Anything above that say 3Dstudio Light wave and the other 'profesional' packages cost you about a weeks salary or more

1.JaVA_Razer
09-06-2005, 12:29 PM
IIRC gibbage had to take a loan to enable him to get 3Dsmax's newer version so he could model for FB/PF (I believe it was MAx5) so yes it's VERY expensive


I do want to make a suggestion

http://www.milkshape3d.com
entry level modeler for $25 I swear to god it rocks. Ok it lacks a builth in renderen and does not have bone weighting ,IK etc but come one.... great low poly modeler though

Pirschjaeger
09-06-2005, 08:08 PM
This is quite interesting. Thanxs all for sharing and contributing.http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif

I downloaded Stiglr's instructional videos but haven't had the chance to sit and watch them yet.

For anyone that is currently or intends to model an aircraft send me a pm and let me know what you are making. I have some blueprints, drawings, and photos I've been collecting over the years. Maybe I'll have something you need.

Also, let me know what software is needed. I know it's pricy but maybe there's an alternative. Pm me for further info.

I've noticed the Typhoon was modelled really well, especially the damage. No other plane, AFAIK, shows as much detail in damage as this one. With this in mind I must ask "What is the difference?". Why does this particular model show so much detail in the damage? Is it simply a matter of effort and time?

Fritz

wayno7777
09-06-2005, 11:01 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by jds1978:
man, this is fascinating! </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I heard that!...
Dang, if there would have been PC's back when I was 13, 14 years old.....

Xiolablu3
09-07-2005, 12:51 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">
Also, let me know what software is needed. I know it's pricy but maybe there's an alternative. Pm me for further info.

Fritz </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Shouldnt that say 'I know its piracy , but....' http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Gibbage1
09-07-2005, 01:27 AM
3DS Max is needed to model for IL2 and that software goes for between 4000-5000$. Its not cheap.

Currently I work in a studio doing 3D graphics for Monster Garage, Monster House, Modern Marvles, Biker Buildoff and a few other TV shows on both History and Discovery channel. After that I come home and model some more.

Pirschjaeger
09-07-2005, 01:29 AM
Piracy? Here in China? Never heard of it. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

If I were a pirate I'd need a patch over one eye. Maybe I'll have it in two weeks. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

Fritz

wayno7777
09-07-2005, 01:36 AM
Rrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr....

Pirschjaeger
09-07-2005, 01:38 AM
Recently I was in Germany. I thought of buying a real winxp until I saw the price. Can you believe 260 Euro? http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif

The excuse for the high price of software is to make up for the losses through piracy. This is total BS, be sure.

Ever wonder how all software is available on the piracy market before it's released? Does anyone actually think there are thieves in every software development lab?

The real bad guyz and supporters of software piracy are the producers themselves. They release their software to the underground market and collect black money, tax free. Then they jack the prices in the west and goudge you guyz. Basically, they have their cakes and eat them too.

In China we get all software and movies long before they are released in the west. A little strange isn't it?

Fritz

Gibbage1
09-07-2005, 03:27 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Pirschjaeger:
The real bad guyz and supporters of software piracy are the producers themselves. They release their software to the underground market and collect black money, tax free. Then they jack the prices in the west and goudge you guyz. Basically, they have their cakes and eat them too.
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>
So this is your excuse for pirating software? Its rather loose at best. Do you honestly think Microsoft or whoever get any money from piraters? Or if they do, how much of that 20$? Considering it should sell for 200$, why would they sell it for just 20? Taxes are not 90%. Dont be ignorant. I worked at Interplay and I know the truth.

You wanna know how pirates get there hands on software before its released? Simple. The manufactures. They are contracted out by the software makers to print the CD's. Typically to the lowest bidder. The lowest bidder pays squat to there employees, and the employees take a few CD's off the production like simply because they dont care about there job. Then they make an ISO of it and upload it to there friends! Its that simple. Microsoft or any other companie can make money selling games or software at 10% of the retail price!!! Thats just foolish and ignorant to even think that!

Gib

Pirschjaeger
09-07-2005, 03:37 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Gibbage1:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Pirschjaeger:
The real bad guyz and supporters of software piracy are the producers themselves. They release their software to the underground market and collect black money, tax free. Then they jack the prices in the west and goudge you guyz. Basically, they have their cakes and eat them too.
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>
So this is your excuse for pirating software? Its rather loose at best. Do you honestly think Microsoft or whoever get any money from piraters? Or if they do, how much of that 20$? Considering it should sell for 200$, why would they sell it for just 20? Taxes are not 90%. Dont be ignorant. I worked at Interplay and I know the truth.

You wanna know how pirates get there hands on software before its released? Simple. The manufactures. They are contracted out by the software makers to print the CD's. Typically to the lowest bidder. The lowest bidder pays squat to there employees, and the employees take a few CD's off the production like simply because they dont care about there job. Then they make an ISO of it and upload it to there friends! Its that simple. Microsoft or any other companie can make money selling games or software at 10% of the retail price!!! Thats just foolish and ignorant to even think that!

Gib </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

When I said "producers" I was talking about the manufacturers.

Gib, It seems you and a pirate I spoke to have different opinions on how it happens. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

Fritz

Gibbage1
09-07-2005, 03:47 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Pirschjaeger:

When I said "producers" I was talking about the manufacturers.

Gib, It seems you and a pirate I spoke to have different opinions on how it happens. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

Fritz </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I would not say different opinions, but different sides of the story. I dont need to justify piracy. He does http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif I worked in the industry and still do. He dont? (Im asuming). I have seen people in software companies go stark raving mad when they see there software being pirated even though they thought it was "safe".

The truth is, that software goes through thousands of hands before its released for sale. All it takes is 1 in those thousands to distribute a copy to a friend and it spreads like wildfire.

I have seen the producer burn the gold mater, put it in a locked suitcase and drive it down to the CD printer himself. Now unless HE is the leak (Since he gets a % of the sales (Legal sales) I doubt it VERY much) then its the printers, or the packers, or the shippers. Its not the software companie and I can guarantee you that. They have NOTHING to binifit from Piraters selling there stuff at 10% of the value and piraters keep all the money to themself, cutting into the software companies profits a lot.

Do some logical thinking please.

Pirschjaeger
09-07-2005, 04:09 AM
I wasn't making excuses for piracy. In my opinion the whole thing is messed up. I think there are bads on both sides and I'd say that greed was the root.

It's like brand name clothing going to an underdeveloped country to exploit the poor by using them for cheap labor, then complaining when the same people they were exploiting exploits them in return.

Anyways, I just deleted the rest of my post. I know the mods don't like this topic. Anyways Gib, if you wanna continue we can use pm. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

I think if we continue we'll ruin a good thread.

Fritz

tHeBaLrOgRoCkS
09-07-2005, 05:07 AM
I suspect its too late already http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/51.gif but in a vain attempt to get this thread back on target do you think we could maybe post some good sources of online aircraft blueprints or something ?

http://www.seawings.co.uk

Gibbage is 3dstudio and 'absolute' requirement if you intend to model for IL2? I only ask cos I heard a rumour (and that probably all it is) that BoB would allow the import of user made models? Is it enough to simply export the finished model into 3ds or is there some unique feature of 3ds that is required by the Il2 engine ?

Pirschjaeger
09-07-2005, 06:52 AM
Hey Balrog, that's a nice site.

I've been waiting for the flyable PBY. I thought it would be interesting to takeoff and land in water. Any news on whether we'll either have it or not? Wasn't it Gib that was working on that one?

Fritz

Pirschjaeger
09-07-2005, 06:55 AM
BTW, the best set of blueprints I've ever seen online were for the Scania J22. It's too bad it never made it into the war. It's a nice looking plane.

I have many detailed drawings and photos if anyone is interested in this one.

Fritz

IAFS_Painter
09-07-2005, 06:59 AM
If you want to try 3d modelling, then the cheapest software is free - Blender.

http://www.blender.org/cms/Home.2.0.html

You wont produce anything up to IL2/FB standard, and it wont convert, but - you want to give it a try?


There is a very nice I-16 here:
http://www.elysiun.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=27311&post...storder=asc&start=30 (http://www.elysiun.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=27311&amp;postdays=0&amp;postorder=asc&amp;sta rt=30)

Much better than anything I've produced!


Heads up - be careful about looking at other pages in that thread, if at work, or other sensitive environments - this IS an art forum

1.JaVA_Razer
09-07-2005, 07:36 AM
TheBalrog, I'm no IL2 modeler but I do remember some of the things that where on IL2center in the beginning about requirements.

Of course as shown on page 1 you need A LOT of models, LoD0,LoD1,.... shadow model, damagemodels and so on.
Secondly, they need to be skinned/UVmapped.
ALL the pivots for flaps, gear, cockpit opening/closing, radiator needs to be set up along with a main pivot if i recall correctly that the engine can use to rotate the plane around (nose up/down roll left/right.....)
ALL models for IL2 MUST BE in .max format.

And to all those thinking about piracy, it works,I know, and I don't think it should be allowed but beware, Oleg maddox/1C does controle if you have a registration with Discreet (manufacturer of 3DsMAX). So no way you can just go about making/submitting models made in a pirated max. just doesn't fly with Oleg/1C

next there is a rumour, I don't know if it's true that you can convert a certain filetype to a .max file without loss of pivots, joints, UV mapping......

but I don't know.....

I will add something else though, it takes A LOT of time to model something and even more time to model something for IL2. If you do intend to make something for BoB (the IL2 succesor) make sure you spend A LOT OF TIME doing details etc. Oleg and 1C do heavy control if the model is accurate.

and, don't pirate things. you can get a student version for "100 here and if you wanna get to learn modeling I advice Gmax. Same as max (about) except without the mental ray renderer and all the nice bonusfeatures of max. Once you get the hang of that you can switch to full blown max no problems and the moeny spenth will be spenth wisely and good.

tHeBaLrOgRoCkS
09-07-2005, 09:19 AM
Thanks for the Info Java http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif

I have toyed around with povray and one or two other 3d packages on and off for about 10 years now but never really produced anything of note( I guess I am just a tinkerer). Right now I have purchased Ac3d with the intention that I make a few models for a home brew target ware mod (a long way of in the distant future)or maybe some other game with a more accesable game engine.

One advantage there is it does its own internal lod calculations but that still don't make it any easier and you still need the pivot points ect and of course hours and months and years of time to devote to it. I may invest in a laptop for myself at some point so I can maybe do some at work too but I wouldnt hold your breath for anything astounding from the balrog studio for a while yet lol

P.s one thing I will add though is that I recomend anyone that has ever thought "gee I wish we had that plane/object in this game" has a quick crack at modeling something themselves even if its just with a freebie package like gmax. One thing I garuntee is you will either be bitten by the bug or at the very least gain an insight into just how much work is involved in producing a model for any of those games you enjoy so much. And that doesnt even touch on whats required to actually produce a full working title.

http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif

Pirschjaeger
09-07-2005, 09:27 AM
This might be a stupid question but I assure you, it's not my first or my last. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

Are there sims where you can actually model and fly the plane you want? From my understanding it's very difficult for Oleg and 1c to accept a model.

Fritz

1.JaVA_Razer
09-07-2005, 11:54 AM
sure any of the combat flight simulators from microsoft allow you to do that. BUT you still have to make your own FM/DM but it's A LOT easier then for IL2 and also you can use Gmax for modeling for CFS.

Thebalrog, if you wish, drop me a line or add me @ jet_force_gemini AT hotmail DOT com
http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif


Also as Thebalrog said, if only people who have comments on models open Gmax, Blender, Wings3D, Milkshape3D,.... and just TRY to make something that even just LOOKS nice... I think a LOT of people would be impressed with the work that goes into these sort of things.
And a full blown title.... well I can tell you A LOT of work goes into this. I've done a bit of work for a Joan of Arc game in development (By winterlust studios), it's kinda dull at the moment because the organization is looking for programmers but I can tell you we've been working on the models themselves, just a french soldier, a rifelman, spearman, Joan herself etc for over a year now. And NOT A THING of the actual engine/implementation is done yet. Well we have the basics but nothing fancy shader like just a engine that can render like pov ray (realtime though) and import file formats.

BTW Balrog, if you open milkshape 3D (and I believe Blender and Wings3D have this also) you'll find under tools a Direct X exporter. This will allow you (by means of a slider) to scale the polycount up or down. Also good to use for LoD's but this still needs tweaking so you keep a nice look at distance.

Cheers

tHeBaLrOgRoCkS
09-07-2005, 12:54 PM
Cheers Java I will keep that in mind, but I am gona stick with ac3d for now until I manage to produce something I am happy with. Last time I was mucking round with milkshape it was just messing with the models for counterstrike http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif

Fritz you could take a look at xplane as I believe that will allow you to create your own aircraft but from what I have seen its aircraft model system is even more of a dark art than iL2 still that said people do seem to get some interesting results from it, perhaps I just haven't investigated it enough. On the up side it doesnt require any additional model software and as far as I can tell does a lot of the fm work for you http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif Of course its not a combat flight sim and it does seem that when you get into the combat side of things it becomes a whole lot more complicated.

This will give you an idea of my level of expertise so far and this is just with about a week of messing with AC3D.

this

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v323/tHeBaLrOgRoCkS/bloodhawk.png

is supposed to look like this

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v323/tHeBaLrOgRoCkS/top.jpg

As you can see its a loooooong way from anything that Gibbage and the pro's put together and thats without landing gear / cockpit interior and any kind of twiddly bits

Not to mention skinning it and animating the various moving parts http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/53.gif

I guess its worth pointing out that you can get away without modeling some of the finer detail if you have a good skinner but as was said before if it moves, can be broken, or hit then it needs to be modeld.

Xiolablu3
09-07-2005, 12:58 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Pirschjaeger:
This might be a stupid question but I assure you, it's not my first or my last. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

Are there sims where you can actually model and fly the plane you want? From my understanding it's very difficult for Oleg and 1c to accept a model.

Fritz </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I htink Oleg purposefully made it hard for people to add their own planes because that would make it easier to hack the online game and allow modifications to planes which would result in a lot of cheating.

Maybe I am wrong, but seeing as how other games are made easy for modding, I cant see any other reason.

Maybe someone can tell us otherwise.

1.JaVA_Razer
09-07-2005, 01:28 PM
LOL BALROG http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

I was making a model to demonstrate the skill/time it takes to make something substantial http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif
http://www.entity-project.be/koen/hagel.jpg
http://www.entity-project.be/koen/hageltop.jpg
http://www.entity-project.be/koen/hagelright.jpg
http://www.entity-project.be/koen/hagelfront.jpg
Polycount:
http://www.entity-project.be/koen/polycount.jpg
EDIT:
The polycount is now 958 polygons which is WAY to high for IL2 so like this a model won't be accepted. A warning to people trying to make something alike for IL2! we have a 3500 polylimit for fighters I think it was well imagen hanging a 1000 polygon bomb under it..... would increase the load to 4500polygons, then make a swarm of 10 of these planes. Thats 10 000!!!!! polygons your GPU has to render extra.... so if you dare to model for IL2, watch your polycount!
took me half an hour a hour to do (including setting up the renders in pov ray http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif )
It's a hagelkorn as found on luft46.
It still needs A LOT of work as at the moment it is 10 minuts work for the 3DsMAX pro users but still....

this could be transformed into something usefull but I'm not gonna bother doing it since I'm not interested, anyone with 3Dsmax wanna do this, just mail me at the above adres, I'll send you the model....
it wouldn't need that much as it is a glide bomb but hej.....

BTW balrog nice model you got going there. with your model you can still clearly see the primitives used for it and how you did it. Nice work dude! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif defenitly add me to your msn if you will http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

bzhyoyo
09-07-2005, 01:50 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content"> but it's A LOT easier then for IL2 and also you can use Gmax for modeling for CFS. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Gmax is actually harder to use than 3DSmax as it is a stripped down version of this software. It is basically the same interface minus some useful tools and rendering capacities.

What makes modeling easier in M$ sims is that you're allowed to have higher polycounts. But otherwise, working with Gmax or 3DSmax is not really that different.

1.JaVA_Razer
09-07-2005, 02:02 PM
yhea indeed, the Gizmo tool is cut out, so is the meshsmooth function and a LOT more but to be honest no one uses the meshsmooth function FOR MAKING GAME MODELS anyways and the builth in renderer (mental ray) lacking, so what, you don't need it to model so...

But you are right on the part of Gmax being partially handicapped 3DsMAX

bzhyoyo
09-08-2005, 01:20 AM
meshmooth is present in Gmax but, as you pointed out, it is useless for games.

The lack of rendering capacities is a shame though because you can't make texture baking with Gmax, something that has been used to great effect with the latest cockpits for FB/PF. BTW the use of this technique is what prevents PF to get 6DOF as a lot of things in PF cockpits are 2D instead of real 3D to save polygons.
However, I think it's one of the technique I'll have to learn to make good-looking textures.

Well, Gmax is free at least... and as such, it is a great tool to learn the basics of modelling IMO.

Hoarmurath
09-08-2005, 01:48 AM
something i was trying to work at :

http://hoarmurath.free.fr/images/cr714_16.jpg

http://hoarmurath.free.fr/images/cr714_17.jpg

http://hoarmurath.free.fr/images/cr714_18.jpg

http://hoarmurath.free.fr/images/cr714_19.jpg

What stopped me wasn't the modelling, but the uvw mapping.

tHeBaLrOgRoCkS
09-08-2005, 01:49 AM
Thanks for the compliments Java, like I said I am by no means an expert and if it hadn't been for Stiglr's tutorial's I probably wouldn't have even tried this.

I wish I had more time to continue this one but what with my other daily commitments I probably won't get this finished (to a standard I am happy with) till nearer the end of this year or early next http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

Its worth mentioning that this model started out as one half and then was mirrored to create the complete 'aircraft' you see in that picture.

The coloured sections you see represent seperate sections/objects of the whole (each had to be capped) representing portions of the object that can be shot off / or need animating (such as flaps elevators etc)

I have a few more bits and pieces to add to this one such as landing gear, the internal cockpit, props (this model had twin props on a single shaft) not to mention guns or any other ordnance that should be visable, and I probably need to break up the fuselage into at least three more sections to allow for varied hull damage. Then there is the question of scale and poly counts and finaly I need to break up the model and export them into a targetware format (Finished product should be around 3500 if memory serves) create animation data and probably jerry some kind of flight models http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/35.gif.

This is a purely personal project I have no intention ,as yet, for this to become a public release its just a pheasability study realy and something I am doing for kicks.

Oh yeah then of course I need to work on texture mapping.

Oh I think my next model is gona be a Zepplin much easier I hope http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

tHeBaLrOgRoCkS
09-08-2005, 01:57 AM
Whoaa http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif Nice work there Hoarmurath http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif From what I have heard and based on what you have there I don't see why you should have to much trouble with the texture mapping.

You might want to check here as there are some pretty good tutorials and some helpful types that might be able to point you in the right direction.

http://www.targetware.net/modules.php?op=modload&name=P...ile=viewtopic&t=8202 (http://www.targetware.net/modules.php?op=modload&amp;name=PNphpBB2&amp;file=viewtopi c&amp;t=8202)

Of course I guess the ease of the project depends a lot on the process you used to create your model in the first place.

Any how congrats on a very fine looking model, I guess we are looking at some considerable man hours being put into that little beutey respect http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/11.gif

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif

1.JaVA_Razer
09-08-2005, 03:39 AM
nice job Hoarmurath!

Polycount on that thing?
And the skinning, I don't know max's UV mapping utill but it seems with wings3D you can UVmap it quite easy..... but I think max's UV mapping utility is A LOT stronger and better so.....

what I do feel is nice is it seems we have quite a few upstart modelers who have the potential to make something real for BoB if they get the right software/time (like thebalrog, I believe Hoarmurath already is using max but I don't know for sure.)

tHeBaLrOgRoCkS
09-08-2005, 04:07 AM
http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif Whoa there!! I don't know if I would say I was ready to submit anything to Oleg just yet!

I am using AC3D myself (My budget just wont stretch to 3Dstudio) which is a lot less complex than 3Dstudio I would say Hoarmurath is a lot closer to providing the level of detail required than I. At least his looks like it might actually fly lol

Still you have managed to fire up my interest again and when I get some time I think I will have a stab at my personal project again.

1.JaVA_Razer
09-08-2005, 04:19 AM
lol balrog, i said potential http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif if you go into max one day and learn the app you might be able to deliver something of use to the community. I didn't say your ready now http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif because your not, nor am I nor is hoarmuruth..... http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Hoarmurath
09-08-2005, 04:33 AM
The poly count was at 2700 iirc... This model is certainly not ready for FB, because i began working on it with few infos, and found out later that it needed much reworking (the most obvious mistake, flaps are wrong).

I think i will just start it anew, good way of learning. And now i have all the necessary books to be able to model it without mistakes. This is important, the more drawings, pics, turnarounds you have, the easier it will be to model it right. Having a scale model can help also.

You have to remember also that for FB, you need this model, and the other LODs, and the damage model, etc, etc.

Anyway i will just continue learning to use 3DSmax until we get BoB. (yes, this is 3DSmax5). Oleg would not accept new models for FB anyway.

And for those who would give it a try, go ahead, it is not as difficult as it seem... What you see here was my first 3Dmodel ever!!!

tHeBaLrOgRoCkS
09-08-2005, 04:40 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by 1.JaVA_Razer:
lol balrog, i said potential http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif if you go into max one day and learn the app you might be able to deliver something of use to the community. I didn't say your ready now http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif because your not, nor am I nor is hoarmuruth..... http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

LOL my mistake, but you are right it is interesting to see that there are people here willing to have ago even if only for educational purposes

1.JaVA_Razer
09-08-2005, 04:52 AM
I'm so glad i'll be learning 3DsMAx for school http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

we can even get the student lisence via our school http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Pretty neat (version 7+ character studio http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif)
50 euros for version 6 and the character studio 4 http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

tHeBaLrOgRoCkS
09-08-2005, 04:58 AM
LOL your lucky when I was at school the closest we got to 3dmodels was clay or balsa wood http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/53.gif I think when I left college wire frame was just becoming an option

1.JaVA_Razer
09-08-2005, 05:51 AM
lol

your old!!!! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif

oh well, no shame in that http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif
For my masterpiece for school in the last year we're going to do a short movie (anything 3D related actually) or such and we need to make it ourselves http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

I think I'm gonna go FB style on their Bhinds and do like a FB movie but then with my models and such http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif Should be neat but my expertise is LOOOOOOOOOOONNNGGG way from such a level. Besides my hardware moans now when I render something in POV RAY let alone with max.....

Good thing I got my Dual Xeons inbound (whoootttt http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif)

tHeBaLrOgRoCkS
09-08-2005, 06:51 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by 1.JaVA_Razer:
Good thing I got my Dual Xeons inbound (whoootttt http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif) </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

LMAO that sounds kinda painful mate http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

Good luck with the movie http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif

1.JaVA_Razer
09-08-2005, 06:54 AM
Painfull? not at all.

190$ Canadian for the mobo (Asus PC DL deluxe rev 1.5) and the intel windtunnels
$100 US for the Xeons themselves (1.6Ghz Low VOltage Xeons C1 stepping (nice ,not super but nice)

if the PSU can handlme the load they will be clocked @ 2.4-2.5Ghz so...PARTY http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

and as I said, the movie project is WAAAAAAYYYYYYYY outta my leage at the moment. thats why I'm going to school http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Pirschjaeger
09-08-2005, 03:07 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by tHeBaLrOgRoCkS:
LOL your lucky when I was at school the closest we got to 3dmodels was clay or balsa wood http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/53.gif I think when I left college wire frame was just becoming an option </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

You are so right. To add, my solar powered Casio calculator was a little weak in 3D modelling.

Balrogs, I think we come from the same millenium. Do you think we might be related? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/blink.gif

Fritz

Gibbage1
09-09-2005, 03:05 AM
I do 3D at work and use Dual 3.06 Xeon with 1GB of ram and a Nvidia Quadro card. At home I use a P4 3.4 with 2GB of ram and a GeForce 6800. I dont notice a differance when working with the models, but the rendering I do. Since I work on a lot of game stuff, rendering is not an issue.

Also, food for thought. At work we have about 12 workstations with Dual Xeon 2.4-3.06. In the server room we have another 10 systems or so. Also another 5 or so systems through the office. At night, all systems are hooked up to the render farm and all systems render out animations. Thats 20+ very powerful duel CPU systems cranking away all night long!!! Sometimes the renders can get 30-60min/frame per system. We deal with short clips mainly ranging from 200-500 frames (a few seconds) and the stuff is rather simple. The sort of rendering power films take require hundreds of computers working years. Its insane.

Food for thought. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

tHeBaLrOgRoCkS
09-09-2005, 05:03 AM
I remember mucking around on my Amiga with 1meg of memory and povray. To produce a simple scene with a few columns and discs required me to script (there was no gui interface I knew of back then) and then leave the machine running for almost a day and a half and that was just a 1024*720 frame!

I did try some very small and basic animations but it was clear that technology was going to have to come a long way before it would be possible for the home user to achieve any realy useful results.

Still here we are around 15 years or so down the line and the kind of stuff you can achieve even with a home computer nowaday's just blows my mind. Think where we will be in another 5 or even 10 and were still only realy scraping the surface.

Its one of the things that keeps me banging away at these bloody machines.

1.JaVA_Razer
09-09-2005, 07:58 AM
LOL gibbage http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_redface.gif Nice office you work at.... LOTS of firepower in those comps. And about the rendering, I'm already experiencing it http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif: Remember Meshsmoother? He once senth me a piece of his work when I warezed 3.2 MAX (welL I HAD a illegal Max version back then,don't care about it anymore now, I Got studentlisenced http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif)
It was 3 B17's with simple skins, simple propellor animations and simple water.... was 1 minut or something in length.

My Barton 2500+@ 2300MHZ effectivly did 2 days to do 30!!!!!!!!!! Frames thats 1 second and 1/5 of a second worth of movie http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Just so everyone else knows what firepower is needed http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Also if you look at pixars renderfarm that thing is HUGE if i recall correctly it's Quad processors all around and using wildcat cards... those things are sweet! But still, I think the modeling,animating,texturing etc takes... what? 1 year if you have a skilled team, but add another year and a half AT LEAST to render the entire thing.

Btw little Q for you gibbage, they have like extension cards these days that have a raytracing and all the nifty, high demanding features on a PCI-E card. Never thought of getting one of those? They have a raytracing processor, another that does texture modifications and such.... looks cool

http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

BTW gibbage, would you be so kind to show us some of your currentday work? (except the P38 for MS flight sim 2004). And secondly, how do shortfilms get made? I mean, editing wise. Do you first produce just movies and then get the renderd movies edited, or do you edit the movie first (in a quick render/low detail) or such and render it all then? http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif



Thank you

Gibbage1
09-10-2005, 01:14 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by 1.JaVA_Razer:
BTW gibbage, would you be so kind to show us some of your currentday work? (except the P38 for MS flight sim 2004). And secondly, how do shortfilms get made? I mean, editing wise. Do you first produce just movies and then get the renderd movies edited, or do you edit the movie first (in a quick render/low detail) or such and render it all then? http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Thank you </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

If you have cable and watch Discovery Channel or History Channel, then I bet you have seen my work a few times. The shows I work on are Modern Marvles for History channel, and Monster Garage, Monster House, Biker Buildoff and a few others for Discovery channel. All of then very popular shows. The modeling I am most proud of is for Monster Garage. I do all the 3D modeling for the last year or so. I dont have any renders or models to show off since they are all at work, but watch the show. When you see 3D graphics, thats most likley my work if its a newer episode.