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View Full Version : ? Is it possible for Luftwaffe to win campaign in DGen?



XyZspineZyX
09-30-2003, 07:36 AM
?? /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif ) anyone!

<img src="http://www.world-data-systems.com/aerofiles/albums/userpics/D13-Hamm109 copy.jpg"

XyZspineZyX
09-30-2003, 07:36 AM
?? /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif ) anyone!

<img src="http://www.world-data-systems.com/aerofiles/albums/userpics/D13-Hamm109 copy.jpg"

XyZspineZyX
09-30-2003, 12:40 PM
There is only one outcome.

XyZspineZyX
09-30-2003, 04:27 PM
Victory or death ....guess what you get!!!LOL

"We make war that we may live in peace."

Aristotle

XyZspineZyX
09-30-2003, 05:29 PM
Than it's only a mission generator, with a determined outcome? I do enjoy FB more than any flight sim I've ever loaded and having elements of history are important! But all question of bias are answered and any argument for flight model improvement pointless? As fare as DGen is concerned! This is a game! And in a game shouldn't there be a goal to achieve successful outcome? But now I fly for nothing more than personal score, with no hope of a successful outcome? If I wanted history lesson I'd go to library wouldn't I? Not trying to rewrite history here, just never played a game where you've lost before you fire the first shot.....just a thought!

<img src="http://www.world-data-systems.com/aerofiles/albums/userpics/D13-Hamm109 copy.jpg"

XyZspineZyX
09-30-2003, 05:32 PM
oh come on..one fighter pilot couldn't change the outcome of the war!!! If you wanna win the singlehanded for Germany, fly CFS3.

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She turned me into a newt, but I got better.

XyZspineZyX
09-30-2003, 05:43 PM
Agree! But would like to have more impact on my little peace of it! And pleas don't make me load CFS 3, I like dynamic campaign but that was bad! Even after I finely got it to run, flying for Luftwaffe I invaded England in 28 missions!!! On what M$ calls real as it gets?

<img src="http://www.world-data-systems.com/aerofiles/albums/userpics/D13-Hamm109 copy.jpg"

XyZspineZyX
09-30-2003, 05:55 PM
Actually, with a Staffel of 10 FW190 (about 6-8 serviceable at any one time, with 2nd Schwarm under my command) I was able smoke cigars in Stalingrad after its capture in September of 1942 (FB1.0).

XyZspineZyX
09-30-2003, 06:34 PM
D13-th_Hamm109 has a good point. Play should have encompassed the possibility of either side being victorious. None of the participants in the conflict knew for certain the outcome. Neither should we.

XyZspineZyX
09-30-2003, 07:39 PM
Undetermined out come! Would be more interesting than just flying for awards for both VVS and Luftwaffe, I don't know how you'd do it? But would have to be base in some small part on your performance! Maybe not so much as campaign hole but more on front line in you're immediate theater of operation i.e; defend bridge at? Mission successful, ground forces exploit and attack. Mission failure, ground forces have to redeploy, finding a different crossing? Giving enemy time to redeploy or strengthen defenses. While I agree no one pilot could win the war, one pilot could and did many times I think win the battle! Or very least contributes to it's out come, for better or worse!

<img src="http://www.world-data-systems.com/aerofiles/albums/userpics/D13-Hamm109 copy.jpg"

XyZspineZyX
09-30-2003, 09:20 PM
I fly the 190A4 stalingrad campaign and till so far, we don't loose any wingmen and always shooting down all VVS planes.

altough an occasional bomber is lost.


I've flown against Yak's.

1 Judge not, that ye be not judged.
2 For with what judgment ye judge, ye
shall be judged: and with what
measure ye mete, it shall be
measured to you again.

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XyZspineZyX
09-30-2003, 10:28 PM
It's not an area that the game encompasses, all these what ifs. The war can be played out in many different ways but only happened in one way and that's what you get with FB. Like it, cool, don't like it read 'Fatherland'. One fighter pilot would not change the war's outcome; why should you?

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She turned me into a newt, but I got better.

XyZspineZyX
09-30-2003, 10:59 PM
Again, all good points, but I'm not fighting a war I'm playing a game, just think flying forty or fifty missions would be more exiting if the outcome was undetermined? Cores I've yet to get farther than 18 missions (DOH) hate when that happens! And I'm not so convinced one pilot couldn't make a difference! I think the Battle of Britain shows that a small handful of men did make the difference against what was overwhelming odes. Had they chose not to fly there hurricanes and spitfires to meet the Luftwaffe holding Hitler at bay things could look very different today, and lets not forget there's the WHAT IF add-on coming sometime this fall? If it's incorporated to the campaign than undetermined takes on a hole new meaning?

<img src="http://www.world-data-systems.com/aerofiles/albums/userpics/D13-Hamm109 copy.jpg"

XyZspineZyX
09-30-2003, 11:57 PM
would be a bit daft, wouldn't it? Fly 50 missions and win the war...hmm.. See your point but not really my thing.

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She turned me into a newt, but I got better.

XyZspineZyX
10-01-2003, 12:20 AM
Maybe you gents missed my post, it Is possible to 'change history' with Dgen, at least it was in FB1.0 (though when you did your campaign ended with a glitch, which I believe Starshoy has fixed now), as I did during the Stalingrad Campaign with a fictional FW190 squadron (no FW190's at Stalingrad in real history). The 'reds' retreated from the region and did not perform their historic winter counter-offensive to encircle the city in winter of 42-43.

Also I am reasonably sure that DCG (Lowengrin's campaign) also allows for non-historic outcomes, possibly even more dynamic than Dgen, where a Soviet victory at Smolensk leads to the Berlin Map, and a German victory at Stalingrad or Moscow leads to a blue win.

XyZspineZyX
10-01-2003, 12:51 AM
Just downloaded DCG, this looks to be a very good program! Giving control over how many flights and ground forces, and building the next mission off the first mission results! Thx just what I was looking for! Now if I could stop trying to turn fight with I-16 maybe I can get farther than 18 missions? /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

<img src="http://www.world-data-systems.com/aerofiles/albums/userpics/D13-Hamm109 copy.jpg"

XyZspineZyX
10-01-2003, 01:32 AM
Yup, give DCG a try if fantasy is your thing. It's the exact opposite of DGEN: the outcome is not determined. The only danger is a stalemate on the ground; you can end up attacking the same bridge 30 times in a row. But the missions are good and you can do lots of customizing.

The eternal question: Is it a sim or is it a game? Sounds like you're into the game side. Nothing wrong with that.

ttt

tttiger
6 "Black Lions" GvIAP, VVS

"I want the one that kills the best with the least amount of risk to me."

-- Chuck Yeager describing "The Best Airplane."

XyZspineZyX
10-01-2003, 01:35 AM
I'm with Hamm109 on this one. I didn't read the whole thread, but I did see some people claiming "history" and others claiming "1 man can't win a war".........whatever.

It's a little thing called suspension of disbeleif. All it takes is another little thing called imagination. Apparently many people have none of the latter and therefore can't manage the former.

"History"? Feh. It happened. I can read about it, watch cool TV specials on it, and have lots of fun generally learning about what actually took place. That requires reports, data, and/or documentaries. Not gonna happen in a game. So toss the old "history" thing out the window when it comes to campaigns. They can't ever be dynamic if you don't.

That comes with exceptions mind you, the setting should be recreated to match history, because that's the reference point. Things that pilots and successes couldn't control should also be left to run their course (plane improvements and what not), and where you have a clash, fudge it.


"1 man can't win a war"? No, obviously not. But in such a dynamic campaign he would not be either. The campaign just happens to be following your success. IOW - if you are in the middle, you still need the north and south fronts to go your way too. If you do well, well, they just "happen to". You don't have a direct hand in it.

And if you wanna claim "yes you do because the code is playing out on your actions so if you win, you win, and that means that 1 man, you, did win the war", I will counter with - well, there is no war, it's all virtual, so if you can imagine there actually being a war, you should be able to imagine the player not actually having a direct impact on the outcome.

And beside, pseudo-randomization could be implemented to help reduce or remove predictability, even leading to a lost war regardless of how well you did, or vice versa.

XyZspineZyX
10-01-2003, 03:25 AM
Actually not at all, I fly full real accept for speed bar and map nav. All other is a lock, if my pilot dies or is captured I start over! Probably why I can't get past 18 missions! LOL and I see nothing wrong with a historical campaign, FB has I think one of the best! "But" there's that BUT! It's still a game! And if you want since of accomplishment you need to fly for more than score, well least I do! Just makes it feel more right for me. And again we are seeing more and more aircraft that didn't fly historically..so why not the "what if campaign?"
tttiger wrote:
- Yup, give DCG a try if fantasy is your thing. It's
- the exact opposite of DGEN: the outcome is not
- determined. The only danger is a stalemate on the
- ground; you can end up attacking the same bridge 30
- times in a row. But the missions are good and you
- can do lots of customizing.
-
- The eternal question: Is it a sim or is it a game?
- Sounds like you're into the game side. Nothing wrong
- with that.
-
- ttt
-
- tttiger
- 6 "Black Lions" GvIAP, VVS
-
- "I want the one that kills the best with the least
- amount of risk to me."
-
--- Chuck Yeager describing "The Best Airplane."
-
-



<img src="http://www.world-data-systems.com/aerofiles/albums/userpics/D13-Hamm109 copy.jpg"

XyZspineZyX
10-01-2003, 04:09 AM
Well, it is a game, but not a game about victory in the war. You can change a lot of things, earn all medals, became an Oberst. But you cannot win the war.

I explained on numerous occasions why it is so in Dgen. It is not even about realism at any price. If the campaign were about one battle, I'd make it winnable by any side.

But if we start to go into parallel timeline, it is fun for exactly one operation. All sequential ones lose any historical reference.

Anyway, I made serious efforts to make Dgen replacable, I am very glad that we have DCG. Because it is an approach that undoubtly some people enjoy, and it is something that I would not do myself in a sim having FB structure - that is consisting of 4 years of major operations with some gaps. In this aspect FB dynamic campaign is no different, than one in Close Combat 3. You can win all battles and it will end the same way, except your rank and your squad.

XyZspineZyX
10-01-2003, 04:55 AM
Salute Starshoy! I have enjoyed Dgen more times than I can count! With each new campaign I've started, always with the hope of going a little farther than the last, (I suck as a pilot LOL) but I keep flying. Can you tell us is there any plans for more campaigns with the upcoming add-on? Maybe give us teas!!

<img src="http://www.world-data-systems.com/aerofiles/albums/userpics/D13-Hamm109 copy.jpg"

XyZspineZyX
10-02-2003, 12:45 AM
There will be new dynamic campaigns in upcoming add-onS. Not in all of them though /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif . I wrote about some but I did not write about may be the most interesting one /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif . I hope it is enough of tease, because I can't say much more anyway /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif .





Message Edited on 10/01/0307:47PM by Starshoy