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Ernst_Rohr
04-02-2007, 01:59 PM
The Ki-84 is arguable one of the best fighters in the game, but its no wonder plane.

I fly the 84 quite a bit (its my favorite late war Japanese plane, even over the excellent Shinden-Kai), so I figured I would through some of what I have picked up for folks wanting to try it out.

The Bad;
1) The Ki-84 brews up like a marshmellow soaked in gasoline. It is VERY flammable, one of the most flammable planes in the game.

2) Tough to exit. Historically, the Hayate had problems with the cockpit, and it was difficult to bail out of the bird. This IS reflected in the game, if things go pear shaped on you in the Hayate, give yourself a couple of seconds grace and hit that bail button early.

3) Poor diving. The Hayate, while better than most Japanese planes, still isnt build tough enough to handle steep dives. Exceed 680kph and say goodbye to a wing.

The Good;
1) Climbing: The Hayate is one of the best climbing aircraft in the game, bar none. Against similar allied aircraft, only the Spitfire MkIX can catch it. A Hayate pilot should USE this to their advantage everytime.

2) Turn: For a heavily armed late war plane, the Hayate is a good turner at 19 seconds. The Hayate also has a great Horsepower to weight ratio and accellerates quickly.

3) Speed: The Hayate is FAST. It is faster than most cotemporary allied fighter, except for the Mustang, and the P-47 up high.

4) Firepower: The 84 packs a heck of a punch. The early A model has 2x12.7mm and 2x20mm, the B model packs 4x20mm. You can acutally run the guns in banks of 2x20mm, which is handy if your wanting to extend your loiter and dogfighting time. 2x20mm is enough to kill anything, so running one bank, then the other gives the Hayate great staying power.

So, how does this all work out?

Get high and get fast in the Hayate. To maintain your speed its CRITICAL to pay attention to your supercharger, which is manual. It had better be in stage 2 when you break 3000m or your not getting peak power. The Hayate, unlike most Japanese planes, performs well up high, dont be afraid to get up and hang out with allied B&Z planes. The P-47 performs better very high, but you sill have the edge in turn and climb as long as the altitude doesnt become extreme.

The speed and accelleration make it a dangerous dogfighter. A Ki-84 can maintain E longer in an extended turn fight, so if your dogfighting anything other than a Spitfire, you should eventually outlast the other plane. Even the Spit doesnt have the hp/weight or acceleration that the Hayate does, but the Spit has a half second better turn time, so its a tossup.

Vertical manuevers work well in the 84, the same climbing turn used by the 109 works equally as well in the 84. The higher horsepower to weight and speed means that if you can keep the fight vertical, contemporary allied planes will start to mush from e-loss if they try to follow.

MAKE SURE you have extended a good bit before you start this. It is VERY easy for a 84 to brew up when struck from below by a burst of .50 cals! Give yourself some room. Watch out for P-38's as well, they can hang with you in the climb much longer than any other AC, and the nose mounted guns means they can be dangerously accurate at longer ranges.

Ideally, the 84 is a shallow B&Z aircraft. Keep your dive angles shallow and cut back on the throttle, and you should come in on the target at a very good rate of speed. Bank away slightly and extend, then climb back up. As long as you keep your speed up, you can dance back in and out of a fight in the 84. High yo-yos are a great tactic in the 84.

Getting away;
The Hayate has a better chance then most to escape from a fight. The Hayate has a good roll rate, so a quick split S works well, particularly when followed by a snap roll or vector roll. You can reverse direction MUCH quicker than most allied planes, only the Corsair can really keep up with the Hayate in a roll.

Once some seperation has been gained, put the Hayate into a very shallow dive (a few degrees) engage boost (W) and run the engine at 92%, close the radiator, bring prop pitch back to 80% and your should easily outrun the other aircraft.

One note though, for best possible speed in the Hayate (or any japanese plane) make SURE you have her trimmed out right. The Hayate is all manual, except for pitch, so you will have to center the ball manually.

If you do get bounced from the rear by a faster plane, the Hayate rolls well, so a snap roll and split S works quite well. Against a P-51, force a turn, you have a six second turn rate advantage over the Mustang. If he is smart and extends away, you an continue to rinse and repeat. Diving away is marginal, but the Hayate is an excellent low level fighter (remember to downshift the supercharger though) and if the Mustang is smart, he isnt going to follow you down. The Hayate and the Mustang have similar wing issues in a dive, so its iffy at best.

Ernst_Rohr
04-02-2007, 01:59 PM
The Ki-84 is arguable one of the best fighters in the game, but its no wonder plane.

I fly the 84 quite a bit (its my favorite late war Japanese plane, even over the excellent Shinden-Kai), so I figured I would through some of what I have picked up for folks wanting to try it out.

The Bad;
1) The Ki-84 brews up like a marshmellow soaked in gasoline. It is VERY flammable, one of the most flammable planes in the game.

2) Tough to exit. Historically, the Hayate had problems with the cockpit, and it was difficult to bail out of the bird. This IS reflected in the game, if things go pear shaped on you in the Hayate, give yourself a couple of seconds grace and hit that bail button early.

3) Poor diving. The Hayate, while better than most Japanese planes, still isnt build tough enough to handle steep dives. Exceed 680kph and say goodbye to a wing.

The Good;
1) Climbing: The Hayate is one of the best climbing aircraft in the game, bar none. Against similar allied aircraft, only the Spitfire MkIX can catch it. A Hayate pilot should USE this to their advantage everytime.

2) Turn: For a heavily armed late war plane, the Hayate is a good turner at 19 seconds. The Hayate also has a great Horsepower to weight ratio and accellerates quickly.

3) Speed: The Hayate is FAST. It is faster than most cotemporary allied fighter, except for the Mustang, and the P-47 up high.

4) Firepower: The 84 packs a heck of a punch. The early A model has 2x12.7mm and 2x20mm, the B model packs 4x20mm. You can acutally run the guns in banks of 2x20mm, which is handy if your wanting to extend your loiter and dogfighting time. 2x20mm is enough to kill anything, so running one bank, then the other gives the Hayate great staying power.

So, how does this all work out?

Get high and get fast in the Hayate. To maintain your speed its CRITICAL to pay attention to your supercharger, which is manual. It had better be in stage 2 when you break 3000m or your not getting peak power. The Hayate, unlike most Japanese planes, performs well up high, dont be afraid to get up and hang out with allied B&Z planes. The P-47 performs better very high, but you sill have the edge in turn and climb as long as the altitude doesnt become extreme.

The speed and accelleration make it a dangerous dogfighter. A Ki-84 can maintain E longer in an extended turn fight, so if your dogfighting anything other than a Spitfire, you should eventually outlast the other plane. Even the Spit doesnt have the hp/weight or acceleration that the Hayate does, but the Spit has a half second better turn time, so its a tossup.

Vertical manuevers work well in the 84, the same climbing turn used by the 109 works equally as well in the 84. The higher horsepower to weight and speed means that if you can keep the fight vertical, contemporary allied planes will start to mush from e-loss if they try to follow.

MAKE SURE you have extended a good bit before you start this. It is VERY easy for a 84 to brew up when struck from below by a burst of .50 cals! Give yourself some room. Watch out for P-38's as well, they can hang with you in the climb much longer than any other AC, and the nose mounted guns means they can be dangerously accurate at longer ranges.

Ideally, the 84 is a shallow B&Z aircraft. Keep your dive angles shallow and cut back on the throttle, and you should come in on the target at a very good rate of speed. Bank away slightly and extend, then climb back up. As long as you keep your speed up, you can dance back in and out of a fight in the 84. High yo-yos are a great tactic in the 84.

Getting away;
The Hayate has a better chance then most to escape from a fight. The Hayate has a good roll rate, so a quick split S works well, particularly when followed by a snap roll or vector roll. You can reverse direction MUCH quicker than most allied planes, only the Corsair can really keep up with the Hayate in a roll.

Once some seperation has been gained, put the Hayate into a very shallow dive (a few degrees) engage boost (W) and run the engine at 92%, close the radiator, bring prop pitch back to 80% and your should easily outrun the other aircraft.

One note though, for best possible speed in the Hayate (or any japanese plane) make SURE you have her trimmed out right. The Hayate is all manual, except for pitch, so you will have to center the ball manually.

If you do get bounced from the rear by a faster plane, the Hayate rolls well, so a snap roll and split S works quite well. Against a P-51, force a turn, you have a six second turn rate advantage over the Mustang. If he is smart and extends away, you an continue to rinse and repeat. Diving away is marginal, but the Hayate is an excellent low level fighter (remember to downshift the supercharger though) and if the Mustang is smart, he isnt going to follow you down. The Hayate and the Mustang have similar wing issues in a dive, so its iffy at best.

Haigotron
04-02-2007, 04:03 PM
Very Informative piece of work there http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif really appreciate
I'll give the bird a try tonight http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

(After im done playing some CnC3)

TheBandit_76
04-02-2007, 04:55 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Ernst_Rohr:
Against a P-51, force a turn, you have a six second turn rate advantage over the Mustang. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Good post, but I'm skeptical Oleg has this part right.

VW-IceFire
04-02-2007, 05:31 PM
I think the seconds turn advantage disappears if you limit the turn times to say 90 degrees or even 180 degrees between the two. The advantage only really shows at the end of the turn (thanks to the Ki-84s fowler flaps, lighter weight, and similar engine power)...if the Mustang has speed and combat flaps then he can probably bring nose to bear for a shot. I find this harder online because thats about the time the other guy lags http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Very nice and informative piece about the Ki-84. It was a bit uber when it came out but its been given some love since then and its a really interesting fighter to fly. By far one of the best Japanese fighters available.

JG53Frankyboy
04-02-2007, 05:38 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Ernst_Rohr:
...............
3) Poor diving. The Hayate, while better than most Japanese planes, still isnt build tough enough to handle steep dives. Exceed 680kph and say goodbye to a wing.

............. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

you can actually dive till ~800km/h IAS - the "proplem" is the same as with the P-51 , a very good elevator response at high speed, so you can pull high G very fast......... and than say "by" to your wing http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

i fly this plane with a lot of trim noseheavy, helps me to eliminate its nervous charackteristic - and its still manouverable enough than http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

JG53Frankyboy
04-02-2007, 05:48 PM
and if i realy want run, ~580km/h TAS at SL (crimea map) - i close radiator, 110% power, 100% pitch, WM engaged.... engine can run 4min 45sec in overheat condition before getting damaged http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

wayno7777
04-02-2007, 08:35 PM
I usually run into problems pulling out of a dive over 750 kph, but I have survived a 780 kph dive intact. The other points are excellent.
Thank you....

Ernst_Rohr
04-03-2007, 12:13 AM
Glad you liked it.

You can exceed 700+kph in the Hayate (very easily), but what I found was that, as mentioned by folks above, any heavy G-loading tend to send you and one of your wings on divergent courses.

I have gone over the limit, and manged to pull out buy heavy noseup trim and stomping on the rudder to "dirty up" the plane.

Another tidbit;

The Hayate lands FAST. The clean airframe and fast acceleration in even a gentle dive can make the bird rather hot on the landing approach.

If she still doesnt want to come down from 300kph, set the throttle to 30%, pitch to 100% (should have been there already) and dirty up the aerodynamics by applying full rudder in one direction and a slightly nose down and gentle opposite stick. That will cause the bird to start dumping speed fairly quickly. WATCH the airspeed, its easy to drop speed quickly and the one thing the Hayate is NOT, is forgiving at low speed stalls.

Mentioning stalls, one thing you do have to get used to is that while you CAN stall fight in a Hayate, you have to be really careful about it. The Hayate can snap stall abrubtly (squared off wings being the culprit) and put you into a spin. Spin recovery isnt too hard, but the Hayate spins FAST and you better make sure you have some altitude, otherwise get the heck out quick!

The Hayate does give you very good indicators of stall warning, so if you go over the limit and spin in, you cant say the plane didnt warn you first. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

High speed stalls are slightly different. Really violent manuevering at high speed is a good way to snap the plane into a very abrupt stall. Doing this with heavy G-loading, close to blackout is usually big trouble.

The key the the Hayate is to be smooth and consistent. Pretty much the same as anyplane, but the 84 has very quick control response and buckets of power to throw behind it. Snapping or jerking the stick tends to result in some very quick and unwelcome responses. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

alert_1
04-03-2007, 01:37 AM
Ki84 is a sort of crossbreed between Spitfire and FW190, great plane but me rather fighting in J2M3...the Japanese La7 http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

major_setback
04-03-2007, 11:30 AM
I find the low/moderate speed elevator authority to be extreemly good when using flaps. You can quite easily ditch an opponent by diving for the sea and sharply pulling up where he can't (don't roll at the same time though or it will spin).

Bremspropeller
04-03-2007, 11:35 AM
The Raiden kix *** even more than the Hayate. Give it a try http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/partyhat.gif

JG52Karaya-X
04-03-2007, 02:19 PM
http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/agreepost.gif

True dat, the J2M3 is a natural born killer, fast (FW190A-ish), very agile (best turn time ~20secs), excellent climb rate (comparable to late 109s) and excessive firepower for a japanese plane (4x20mm with about 200 rounds for each cannon http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/winky.gif)

Although the Ki84 is a bit faster and more maneuvrable I tend to prefer the Raiden because of its higher first pass killing potential.

Ernst_Rohr
04-03-2007, 03:55 PM
Raiden is indeed a good bird, I do dislike the visibility out of the pit (same gripe a lot of the Japanese pilots had with it). 4x20mm is the same load out as the Ki-84b, but the J2M3 is a rocket when it comes to climb. Nothing touches it except for the 109G2.

Raiden is definatly more of B&Z bird. Dives better, its certainly tougher, but bleeds E prodigiously in manuevers. (short stubby wings and all).

That only applies to the J2M3, cause the M5 is a pathetic dog in comparison, the Hayate is better across the board than the J2M5 except in climb.

zoomar
04-03-2007, 07:51 PM
It may just be me, but I have a lot of trouble managing the engine in the Hayate, Raiden, and Shinden. It overheats constantly at combat power, which limits the performance I can get out of the plane. Of the late war Japanese planes, I actually prefer the Ki-100 - it seems to turn the best and has better stall characteristics and decent speed. The only weak point is the comparatively puny armament.

wayno7777
04-03-2007, 08:15 PM
I found you can run the Frank at 102% rads 4 90 to 100 prop pitch and fly all day below 4500 meters. Above that, open the rad to 6....

Ernst_Rohr
04-03-2007, 11:22 PM
The only time I have managed to run into overheat with the Hayate is if the rads are closed. Otherwise, she is a pretty tolerant bird.

One thing to remember is that like most Japanese planes, everything is manual, so work with the prop pitch and watch the manifold pressure. If you keep the pitch below 100% in level cruising flight and work it constantly in flight, you will run cool non-stop.

I have far more problems with overheating in planes like the Hellcat. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Polyperhon
06-26-2007, 02:15 AM
It looks like a destiny to clash with Rohr. In a few words, I don't like this plane. I had tried it in some missions and I soon discovered that can drop a wing quite easily when I try rather complicated manoeuvres, when other planes would just shake, or indeed fly smoothly.In a superficial,first-time impression, seems light in the controls and very manoeuvrable, but in fact it requires a lot of skill to take the best out of it.And is not that fast at all either.Again I clash in this with Rohr (are we flying a different sim?).I can tell you for sure that the F4U has the edge in speed and the F6F is not far away either.Even if it's rather big, is fragile and this it shows when you pull high-g and of course by the way they shoot you down...Of the Jap planes, I prefer J2M (even the J2M5) and the ki-100,but given the fact that they were rare,I would say Ki-61 is better choice for me all the time.This is one really nice-handling plane with no faults, the only problems are the relative lack of (gun and engine) power.

JG53Frankyboy
06-26-2007, 02:33 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Polyperhon:
............I can tell you for sure that the F4U has the edge in speed and the F6F is not far away either............. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

the F6F close in speed to the Ki-84 ?!?!?!?!?!
at least at SL the Ki-84 is flying ~580km/h TAS and the F6F 520 ! and at heights the difference is not much different.

did you activate the water-methanol injection in the Ki-84 ??

and yes, the Ki-84 is very nervous in handling - i fly this plane nose heavy trimmed, this helps, it is making it more stable.

tigertalon
06-26-2007, 06:11 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Ernst_Rohr:
Raiden is indeed a good bird, I do dislike the visibility out of the pit (same gripe a lot of the Japanese pilots had with it). 4x20mm is the same load out as the Ki-84b, but the J2M3 is a rocket when it comes to climb. Nothing touches it except for the 109G2.

Raiden is definatly more of B&Z bird. Dives better, its certainly tougher, but bleeds E prodigiously in manuevers. (short stubby wings and all).

That only applies to the J2M3, cause the M5 is a pathetic dog in comparison, the Hayate is better across the board than the J2M5 except in climb. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Are you sure about that? I fly raidens quite a lot, and besides monstrous altitude performance of the J2M5 version (on a par with P47 http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif) due to 3 stage blower I wasn't able to notice and other difference below 6km. They seem to handle and perform virtually identical there... Only me?

alert_1
06-26-2007, 06:28 AM
Nice Ki84 tactic summary, but I have no luck with Hayate, always running into Spit VIII. Tell me what to do then? Bailing early?

Polyperhon
06-26-2007, 07:27 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">

the F6F close in speed to the Ki-84 ?!?!?!?!?!
at least at SL the Ki-84 is flying ~580km/h TAS and the F6F 520 ! and at heights the difference is not much different.

did you activate the water-methanol injection in the Ki-84 ?? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yes you are right.First of all, I should have been more specific.I mean not far away in real combat conditions.The F6F dives faster and has a tendency to keep its speed in open, smooth manoeuvres.However, I tried all three planes (in 2000m alt) and I am pretty convinced that I was doing something wrong with the engine management of the Ki-84.Before that I was sure that this plane was overheating easily.Up to 420 Km/h all 3 planes accelerate more or less in the same rate but then the F6F-5 starts to remain behind.F4U-1D and Ki-84-Ib accelerate in quite the same pace but there is a notable difference: The F4U tends to climb if you leave the stick, while the Ki-84 does not.In any case in combat conditions is faster than the Ki-84.I should be more careful and I should give a try to plane just before I write a comment on it!The rest of my comments for the Ki-84 are still valid as in my previous post:Even now I think that in a combat engagement, despite its performance inferiority,it's rather the F6F that has the upper hand.

Ernst_Rohr
06-26-2007, 07:55 AM
Wow, thats pretty different. I am not sure where your losing speed with the Hayate, but the 84 is significantly faster across the board compared to the Hellcat, to the tune of 60+kph at all alts.

The planes are very similar, but the Hayate is faster, slightly better in turn time, FAR better in sustained turn, better acceleration, and MUCH better climb. They are close, but the 84 has the edge.

I used to absolutely hate the Hellcat, but since I am in a Navy squadron, I have gotten to know the a/c a bit better and while I think the Hellcat is still far too easy to overheat, the key there was to control the prop pitch, much like the 84.

In a 84 I would MUCH rather get mixed up with a Hellcat over a F4U.

The F4U is only slightly slower than the 84 (like in single digit territory, not enough to count), slightly slower in a turn, and rolls very well.

I have gone up against both Hellcats and Corsairs, and the Corsair is much more formidable opponent than the Hellcat. The huge power of the Corsair makes it a very good B&Z bird, and it does fight well in the vertical, as opposed to the Hellcat, which is a good plane, but the Hayate outperforms it in the vertical handily.

Polyperhon
06-26-2007, 03:07 PM
For sure the F4U is much more difficult that the F6F! I am not saying otherwise!The ki-84 was a little faster in my 2000m test (single digit as you said), but I think the difference in higher alt of the F4U is more significant.
The F6F is a strange plane in many ways.My idea that the F6F still has an edge on the Ki-84 comes from the fact that is so simple to fly and fight:In comparison with the Ki-84 looks like the only thing you have to do is turn your plane in the direction of your enemy.If you try to dogfight with the F6F you will notice another characteristic: While does not excel in turning performance, it can follow the enemy plane in every possible type of manoeuvre.Some planes drop their wings violently if you try to follow your enemy in particular manoeuvres (Tempest,P-51 etc.):Well the F6F might fall behind or open its trajectory more, but almost always stays on its course. That's why the Ki-84 might be faster but in a close engagement it seems that this advantage loses it significance.And another thing is that the F6F is possibly the most heavily armored warbird.It's almost like a flying tank.Opportunity shots they rarely have any result,you need to approach closely on its tail, actually cutting off the tail is the safest way to bring it down.If they are behind you you can try to loop and even if you fall/stall in the proccess the plane drops and regains speed smoothly and you have a fair chance that the enemy was not able to follow you.The F6F was not a success without any reason....

VW-IceFire
06-26-2007, 03:17 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by alert_1:
Nice Ki84 tactic summary, but I have no luck with Hayate, always running into Spit VIII. Tell me what to do then? Bailing early? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Speed and altitude advantage. Standard boom and zoom techniques. Whenever possible use superior roll rate (versus standard wing Spitfires) to put the Spitfires off guard. The turns are actually fairly close with a Spitfire VIII...as long as you use combat flaps in the Ki-84. Its not a winning proposition but if the Spitfire pilot isn't good then you can probably gain the edge.

R_Target
06-26-2007, 04:08 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Polyperhon:
If you try to dogfight with the F6F you will notice another characteristic: While does not excel in turning performance, it can follow the enemy plane in every possible type of manoeuvre.Some planes drop their wings violently if you try to follow your enemy in particular manoeuvres (Tempest,P-51 etc.):Well the F6F might fall behind or open its trajectory more, but almost always stays on its course. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Takeo Tanimizu thought the same thing:

"I think the toughest opponent was the Grumman F6F. They could maneuver and roll, whereas planes such as the P-38 and F4U made hit-and-run passes. The F6F could actually dogfight with us, and it was much faster and more powerful than our Zero."

Sadamu Komachi:

"I think the best enemy fighter plane I fought against was the F6F. It was faster than our Zero and more powerful. It could dogfight, whereas the F4U could not. There is nothing more frightening than a Hellcat on your tail! They would just shower us with bullets. I used to have nightmares about that!"

Ernst_Rohr
06-26-2007, 05:44 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Polyperhon:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">

the F6F close in speed to the Ki-84 ?!?!?!?!?!
at least at SL the Ki-84 is flying ~580km/h TAS and the F6F 520 ! and at heights the difference is not much different.

did you activate the water-methanol injection in the Ki-84 ?? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yes you are right.First of all, I should have been more specific.I mean not far away in real combat conditions.The F6F dives faster and has a tendency to keep its speed in open, smooth manoeuvres.However, I tried all three planes (in 2000m alt) and I am pretty convinced that I was doing something wrong with the engine management of the Ki-84.Before that I was sure that this plane was overheating easily.Up to 420 Km/h all 3 planes accelerate more or less in the same rate but then the F6F-5 starts to remain behind.F4U-1D and Ki-84-Ib accelerate in quite the same pace but there is a notable difference: The F4U tends to climb if you leave the stick, while the Ki-84 does not.In any case in combat conditions is faster than the Ki-84.I should be more careful and I should give a try to plane just before I write a comment on it!The rest of my comments for the Ki-84 are still valid as in my previous post:Even now I think that in a combat engagement, despite its performance inferiority,it's rather the F6F that has the upper hand. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I was thinking more on this...

What settings to you have your rads at? That alone makes a huge difference in the Hayate. I almost never close my rads completely unless I am going for top speed, and then I usually am bringing down the prop pitch to compensate somewhat.

You an bring the PP down to 90% on the 84 and it does help when your trying to run flat out, almost mandatory when you are running flat out and with WEP engaged. Ironically, not much different from the Hellcat.

The other thing would be what alt your engaging the supercharger at, that can have a pretty big impact as well.

The final thing would be your comment on the 84 remaining dead level on neutral trim when the stick is released. That is definitely not been the case for me. I have to trim nose down on the Hayate to keep it from climbing too steeply when in neutral trim.

The only other thing I can think of is what your joystick settings might be doing as well. If your 100% across the board, the Hayate is probably way over responsive for you, which could explain why your noticing it being excessively twitchy.

Just some thoughts! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Ernst_Rohr
06-26-2007, 05:50 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by R_Target:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Polyperhon:
If you try to dogfight with the F6F you will notice another characteristic: While does not excel in turning performance, it can follow the enemy plane in every possible type of manoeuvre.Some planes drop their wings violently if you try to follow your enemy in particular manoeuvres (Tempest,P-51 etc.):Well the F6F might fall behind or open its trajectory more, but almost always stays on its course. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Takeo Tanimizu thought the same thing:

"I think the toughest opponent was the Grumman F6F. They could maneuver and roll, whereas planes such as the P-38 and F4U made hit-and-run passes. The F6F could actually dogfight with us, and it was much faster and more powerful than our Zero."

Sadamu Komachi:

"I think the best enemy fighter plane I fought against was the F6F. It was faster than our Zero and more powerful. It could dogfight, whereas the F4U could not. There is nothing more frightening than a Hellcat on your tail! They would just shower us with bullets. I used to have nightmares about that!" </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Different birds though, 84 vs F6F is a different matchup then A6M vs F6F. I actually thing that the Hellcat is slightly undermodelled in comparison to some of the late war Japanese birds, particularly the George, but the Zero had no speed compared to the Hellcats at all.

Against the Zero, the Hellcat has a big speed lead, 60+ kph across the board, better dive, better durability, better diving, and while the zero has better climbing, its not by a whole lot.

Now, the Zero, even late models have a huge turn advantage over the F6F, but I think thats a case of the Hellcat being undermodelled somewhat.

R_Target
06-26-2007, 07:06 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Ernst_Rohr:
Different birds though, 84 vs F6F is a different matchup then A6M vs F6F. I actually thing that the Hellcat is slightly undermodelled in comparison to some of the late war Japanese birds, particularly the George, but the Zero had no speed compared to the Hellcats at all. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yeah, I'm in total agreement with you, wasn't trying to draw a Zeke/Frank comparison vs F6F, just noting that the Hellcat's manuevering qualities that Polypheron described in IL2 reflect actual events to a degree.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Now, the Zero, even late models have a huge turn advantage over the F6F, but I think thats a case of the Hellcat being undermodelled somewhat. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

F6F undermodelled in turn? I think it's pretty good myself. Certainly it shouldn't be worse, but I would question how much better it should be.

The Hellcat is definitely underdone performance-wise. "WEP" speeds in IL2 correspond to RL "Military Power" speeds at nearly all altitudes. I've done all I can about that. OM has the data.

As for the Ki-84, I don't fly it much. N1K2 and Raiden suit me much better.

Ernst_Rohr
06-26-2007, 07:14 PM
I am getting to really like the Shinden-kai, but it is definitely a different experience than the Hayate. I found it to be a lot more sensitive to rough handling than the 84, but that might just be I am not used to the plane yet.

The Raiden is a whole different ballgame. Superfast, great B&Z, but LOUSY visibility, which is generally one of the things I like about flying the Japanese birds, better vis and SA.

Polyperhon
06-27-2007, 04:17 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">
... your comment on the 84 remaining dead level on neutral trim when the stick is released. That is definitely not been the case for me. I have to trim nose down on the Hayate to keep it from climbing too steeply when in neutral trim.

The only other thing I can think of is what your joystick settings might be doing as well. If your 100% across the board, the Hayate is probably way over responsive for you, which could explain why your noticing it being excessively twitchy. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hhmm...well you are right.My joystick was decalibrated in pitch.Now I see that the F4U has an even more pronounced tendency to climb in neutral trim.F6F is (almost) neutral,but I 've seen that La-5/7 and P-40 are perfect.That's why the late Ray Hanna loved them.
What I did in my test was to put the supercharger in position 2 and keep the radiator open( in the open position more correctly).I didn't touch the prop. pitch.

You might think that a Ki-84/F6F would be a different story than A6M/F6F, but I still think that despite the performance deficit the F6F has rather better chances.
Both guys touched the problem of accurate modelling.I 'd that indeed what says RONNCO feels more natural to me, that if something is wrong this is the engine power, but this might be based on my preconception about what I expected before I tried it in the sim.

In general, I tend to dislike the Nakajima products,, both Ki-43 and ki-84.I wish we had the Ki-44 too to try them all!The position of their elevators is rather strange and possibly contributes a lot to their bizarre handling.Many modern planes position their elevators as back as possible and this forward position makes me think that they did something wrong there.It 's difficult to get good harmonisation in yaw and pitch when is that different positioning between the rudder and the elevators.And I still think that in some "strange" angles of attack the elevators stall first, before the wing.In general, the whole design of the plane seems inspired from the Sopwith planes of 1st WW...Put everything in front, and concetrate the centre of gravity there.
I am not a big fan of the N1K2 either, this plane seems unbalanced but in the opposite side (too heavy tail), however it's easier to take-off and land and has one good thing: It's the only tough japanese warbird.Still, I prefer the J2M, which is the best Jap warbird for me.

tigertalon
06-27-2007, 05:42 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by R_Target:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Now, the Zero, even late models have a huge turn advantage over the F6F, but I think thats a case of the Hellcat being undermodelled somewhat. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

F6F undermodelled in turn? I think it's pretty good myself. Certainly it shouldn't be worse, but I would question how much better it should be.
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

The problem IMO lies not only with hellcat, but in general modelling of E-retention at high speeds. Hellcat has better maneouverability at higher speeds compared to zero (as it should), but what good it is when you dump enormous quantities of speed for every slight maneouvre and become slow in no time where Zero prevails, leaving you with the only option: ruuuun your arse like there is no tomorrow. Situation is similar (purely IMO) with, for example P51 vs Bf109...

I am still to see a track of a valid tactics for F6F (without initial 1km alt advantage) fighting a A6M (without dragging him up all the way to 25.000 feet where you can outfight him).

I do not believe 1v1 co alt F6F was so poor versus A6M.

Polyperhon
06-27-2007, 06:27 PM
I don't think such a big fault could exist and after all these years Oleg took no action.Yes, WW II fighters were not F-15 or F-16s.Losing speed was as enormous as you experience it and have you ever thought why was this "obsession" to throw as much powerful engines as possible dispite the negative effects that this had? (e.g Bf 109G , Griffon Spitfires etc.).Until the Vietnam war in every single fighter engagement speed had the upper hand versus a slower but more agile opponent.
And I don't think that 1v1 F6F is so poor versus A6M, unless you expect that the F6F should win almost every time.With the Zero this simple rule applies that if a zero is in your tail you should try simply to ...escape first and not break and try to get behind it right away because then you 're dead.Now that in 1v1 means that you need to get some height and/or speed, something that might take a couple of minutes (even more) and then try to engage again.Actually 1v1 is easier,because when you have to do with big concetrations of zero's they look like they appear behind your tail from every possible direction.That's why when you fight agaist many zeros you want to open up their formation and kill them one by one.Indeed the fact that jap rookies late in the war were learning only how to fly and shoot and NOT formation training/tactics is said that contributed greatly in their heavy losses late in the war (any more info on this?)This rule applies for most japanese planes, Ki-84 included.

R_Target
06-29-2007, 07:39 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by tigertalon:
I do not believe 1v1 co alt F6F was so poor versus A6M. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

It wasn't. When you see this:
http://www.imagehosting.com/out.php/i841896_TAICf6f.gif

And then see this:
http://www.imagehosting.com/out.php/i841894_IL2Czz.jpg

You kind of have to wonder what's going on.

Polyperhon
06-30-2007, 01:25 PM
Sorry can you send the link where i can download this program? Thank you

Xiolablu3
06-30-2007, 01:33 PM
Very nice post.

The Ki84 is no longer the wonderplane it was in previous versions. It is however a capable plane and very dangerous opponent, but definitely beatable.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by alert_1:
Nice Ki84 tactic summary, but I have no luck with Hayate, always running into Spit VIII. Tell me what to do then? Bailing early? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

In a Ki84 you certainly shouldnt bail when you meet a Spitfire VIII, the planes are very evenly matched. The Ki84 is faster, the Spitfire slightly better at the dogfight.
You can afford to 'mix it', but if you start ot lose the advatage you can always nose down and extend away from him.

Ki84 vs Spitfire VIII is an excellent, well matched online battle and creates a great base to work a planeset/map around.

Xiolablu3
06-30-2007, 01:37 PM
I really enjoy F6F versus Zero battles, much preffering hte American fighter as the superior warplane.

As long as you are not trying to dogfight Zeros alone, which only a novice would do, a bunch of F6F's should have little trouble versus contemporary Zeros in the game.

Yes the Zero is the better dogfighter, so simply dont dogfight. That negates most of the Zeros advatages right away.

F6F is one of my favourite American planes. Excellent armament vs Japanese Navy planes and fantastic view and top speed. A well aimed one sec burst is easily enough to cripple a Zero and usually destroy him

R_Target
06-30-2007, 06:23 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Polyperhon:
Sorry can you send the link where i can download this program? Thank you </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

IL2Compare? Here. (http://war.by-airforce.com/downloads/il2compare-4.07.html)

Polyperhon
07-01-2007, 06:01 AM
Thanks...I want to ask you something else. Can you make a really good bare metal, late war P-40N (in P-40M of course) skin, as good as the others that you 've made already? ( I presume that you are the RONNCO that makes skins)

R_Target
07-01-2007, 02:12 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Polyperhon:
Thanks...I want to ask you something else. Can you make a really good bare metal, late war P-40N (in P-40M of course) skin, as good as the others that you 've made already? ( I presume that you are the RONNCO that makes skins) </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

That would be a fun project, but between RL obligations, flying in IL2 (doing much more of it these days), and my vegetable garden, I have little time left to skin planes these days. Additionally I would have to make a template and figure out how to do bare metal, both of which would take me no small amount of time. I would have a look around at Flying Legends or M4T though, there have to be some nice silver P-40's somewhere.

Polyperhon
07-01-2007, 02:30 PM
Sorry I might become tiresom, but I don't understand how IL compare works...I thought I should paste it on my 1946 folder but nothing happens...is there any README file?

Messer262
07-01-2007, 03:05 PM
I have a question:
Can't you just constantly leave the Methanol injection on, prop pitch 100% and everytime run it at 110% with rad open?
I found out you can fly a long time with this setting without overheating, and even then, a reduction to 104-106% bring stuff back to normal.
If you lower the prop pitch will the performance increase? and why not allways keep the methanol injection allways on?

R_Target
07-01-2007, 08:09 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Polyperhon:
Sorry I might become tiresom, but I don't understand how IL compare works...I thought I should paste it on my 1946 folder but nothing happens...is there any README file? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Just run the installer and it should be fine. You don't need to fuss with '46, it's a separate program.