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Xeith98zz
02-09-2019, 09:39 PM
Im already aware lawbro is up first for a rework, but is Raider getting love this year? Imo hes easily the coolest hero until we get the viking maul god

LedgeAllegiance
02-09-2019, 09:48 PM
I've been asking that same question for a couple of season now and I've never got a response. He really needs some attention. I just hope they dont take his dodge gb away. One thing that sets him apart from the rest.

Ubiflowessence
02-09-2019, 11:16 PM
I don't any info on if Raider will be getting a rework, but I do know the team is always looking at balancing for the game.

From your personal experience with Raider, what would be the biggest benefit to him getting a rework and what changes do you hope to see?

allenhollow
02-09-2019, 11:40 PM
at least give him hyper armor and more fast attacks

chukblok
02-09-2019, 11:43 PM
He is just too predictable and slow.
-Needs HA if he is to remain that way.
-everything revolves around feints to stunning tap or GB.
-no opener except for zone or attempt GB

And please give him a help option with no beard...similar to the warlord helm with no beard and nose ring.

Hormly
02-10-2019, 12:29 AM
And please give him a help option with no beard...similar to the warlord helm with no beard and nose ring.

Viking imposter

chukblok
02-10-2019, 12:52 AM
Viking imposter

*hangs head in shame*
....ill show myself the door

Kargish1
02-10-2019, 12:58 AM
I don't any info on if Raider will be getting a rework, but I do know the team is always looking at balancing for the game.

From your personal experience with Raider, what would be the biggest benefit to him getting a rework and what changes do you hope to see?

He needs some extra stuff. Hyper armor, undodgeable or anything of that sort. His kit is okay.

MCBooma16
02-10-2019, 02:23 AM
There are threads all over reddit about potential tweaks and updates, or even reworks, @Ubiflowessence.

A major one I see to give Raider is a L-H chain. Perhaps a L-H-L and/or L-H-H chain(s) just to keep it consistent with all Raider's three attack chain options.

Second thing, faster light attacks. 600ms does not work anymore, except out of anticipation to interrupt attacks. 500ms seems to be the best way to go, especially with how nicely Black Prior does and how more consistent WL is.

I don't really think Raider needs hyper armor since it would take away from Raider's identity a bit. It would be great, but Raider isn't a trader. He's a hard- hitting, high light parry-punishing hero with the best dodge GB in the game that suits for counter attacking. To play Raider, you need to get in your opponent's head and adjust when necessary.

The thing is, better players have no problem with Raider's current offense in 1v1's. And, unless you can parry lights consistently and get those nice 40dmg heavies, the only pressure a Raider can apply is with the zone 33/33/33.

Stunning tap is good, but maybe needs to be faster.

Raider can't get his damage in.

Raider for sure needs faster lights and quicker stunning tap. Maybe faster heavies, too, but I honestly like the 40dmg. If Ubi makes them faster they might go down to 35, similar to what happened to Shugoki.

I've seen lots of ideas.

MAYBE more soft feint options. Heavy to heavy or heavy to light soft feint from opposite side that can be accessed from any heavy in the chain. Even soft feint to left side into light or heavy from the zone.

Example: Right heavy, Left heavy but left heavy soft feinted to right side light or heavy. With a LHH or LHL chain available players would then be able to chain into another heavy after that soft feinted light, and soft feint to stunning tap as a mixup possibility. Here's the mixup:

H=Heavy. L=Light, ST=Stunning tap. SF=Soft feint.
Right H SF to Left L- Left H SF to ST- Zone- SF to Left L- Right H- Top L- Right H SF to Left H.

Assuming you have enough stam, that's theoretically a possible mixup. And, if I'm honest, that would be sick.

Summary:

°500ms lights
°Faster Stunning tap(If faster, lower damage to 16 or 15, from 18)
°Ability to soft feint heavies from left or right into another heavy or light.
°Light to heavy chain or chains to allow for less predictability and more mind games.
°Slightly less stamina consumption to allow for more neutral pressure with the zone attack.

With these simple changes, Raider will have more neutral 50/50 options. Raider will be able to perform soft feints to stunning taps or soft feints to the sides. With less stamina consumption, the combinations that will then be available with new chains and soft feint options will be phenomenal and excellent. There will also be more neutral pressure with the zone and a soft feint option to the left from the zone will make for some fun and interesting gameplay.

Raider doesn't need an "opener" or hyper armor. He just needs quicker and better ways to access and maintain his mixups.

RenegadeRasta
02-10-2019, 02:29 AM
How about giving him one extra light/heavy combo like LHL/ LLH/ HLL? How about making the 2nd light a guaranteed hit or speed it up a little? How about the option to have his 3rd top heavy charged up? And might as well put the HA on it.

If there's something that should be taken away from him, I think it should definitely be the stamina drain on Stampede Charge. It bugs me how a dude is sprinting while carrying someone heavy on his shoulder, but that person gets exhausted afterwards and not the guy carrying him. Everything else is ok.

chukblok
02-10-2019, 03:10 AM
How about giving him one extra light/heavy combo like LHL/ LLH/ HLL? How about making the 2nd light a guaranteed hit or speed it up a little? How about the option to have his 3rd top heavy charged up? And might as well put the HA on it.

If there's something that should be taken away from him, I think it should definitely be the stamina drain on Stampede Charge. It bugs me how a dude is sprinting while carrying someone heavy on his shoulder, but that person gets exhausted afterwards and not the guy carrying him. Everything else is ok.

As a raider main I'd be totally fine with taking away stamina drain on charge if he got some extra mixup tools. Not sure why his kit can't be slightly modified. Make stunning tap like a shove.....but take away its damage. If it got changed to be like a shove this could open things up. I understand he does big damage so I'd be ok with sacrificing damage for some HA...or as you mentioned some extra combos....or why can't he have a dashing heavy like both the other vanguards....

Also....A NO beard helmet.....

RenegadeRasta
02-10-2019, 03:37 AM
A shove to replace the stunning tap sounds decent . Just replace with that emote of his and we're set.

Tyrjo
02-10-2019, 08:10 AM
Raider was among the first heroes who had his rework, so I don't think he's getting another one. He could use some "fight updates" though.




And please give him a help option with no beard...similar to the warlord helm with no beard and nose ring.

Really? Those Warlord helms are absolutely terrible. The worst look of a face to ever come to this game. What a waste of dev time they are. I was kind of confused when they released, since the armor is usually very good.

mrmistark
02-10-2019, 09:54 AM
First off, reduce the stamina cost of his moves.

Also, on console, the zone is still broken as hell, so it makes being able to use his zone kind of difficult sometimes as you throw out normal heavies and lights instead sometimes.

As other said, add more chain options, maybe an UB heavy chain finisher to boot.

Zone and heavy soft cancels into sprint, remove stamina drain from sprint though.

Maybe some HA on zone and stunning tap.

That’s it. He just needs a little tune up. Nothing crazy, no crazy headbutting or bashes, just the ability to not be instantly interrupted, a little better mind game and the stamina to pull it off alright.

ChampionRuby50g
02-10-2019, 11:19 AM
Raider was among the first heroes who had his rework, so I don't think he's getting another one. He could use some "fight updates" though.

Was he actually? I’m pretty sure he hasn’t received a rework at all. I thought there first reworks where Conc and Kensei, with Nobushi and Highlander getting fight updates.

Tyrjo
02-10-2019, 12:55 PM
Was he actually? I’m pretty sure he hasn’t received a rework at all. I thought there first reworks where Conc and Kensei, with Nobushi and Highlander getting fight updates.

This was back in 2017 so most people probably forgot he was even worse.


RAIDER

Stunning Tap Mix Ups

All Heavy attack startups can be cancelled into Stunning Tap.
Raider Fury and Zone Attack startups can be cancelled into Stunning Tap.
Stunning Tap can chain into Raider Fury.
Stunning Tap can chain on Miss Recovery.
Animation transition improvements to accommodate new mix ups.

Zone Attack

[Bug Fix] Zone Attack can’t be feinted if performed Out of Guard mode.

Stampede Charge

Stamina cost reduced to 40 (from 60).
Target’s stamina drains while being carried by the Raider:
Minimum loss = 36 stamina points.
Maximum loss = 66 stamina points.
Target’s stamina regeneration cooldown increased to 2.7 seconds (from 1.8) after completion of the attack.
[Bug Fix] Target no longer regenerates stamina while being carried by the Raider.

Stampede Charge into Wall

Recovery after Knee can flow into attacks 100ms earlier.
Knee damage increased to 15 (from 0).
[Bug Fix] Victim’s stamina regenerate after the entire attack is over, not before.

Throw Back

[Bug Fix] Target starts regenerating stamina after the throw is over, not before.

Damage

Chop and Poke second Light attack damage increased to 15 (from 10).
Chop and Poke Light finisher damage increased to 15 (from 12).
Winding Slashes Light attack damage increased to 15 (from 10).

Stamina

Raider’s stamina pool increased to 130 (from 120).

Tundra 793
02-10-2019, 01:00 PM
And please give him a help option with no beard...similar to the warlord helm with no beard and nose ring.

Only if they make it non-ugly. Kinda feels like we aren't allowed to have even moderately attractive Vikings in this game.

chukblok
02-10-2019, 03:12 PM
Really? Those Warlord helms are absolutely terrible. The worst look of a face to ever come to this game. What a waste of dev time they are. I was kind of confused when they released, since the armor is usually very good.

what!!!?? I guess i have bad taste..that helm alone made me almost swich to warlord.

I agree though that for some reason the vikings (specifically Raider, zerg, HL) look off. I would like a no beard option for raider and a HL option for pants...

Xeith98zz
02-10-2019, 06:17 PM
Even if a rework isnt in order for him I definitely agree that he needs some updates. Dont know why he isnt being looked at. Horrible move list, no options. Almost like pre shugo and lawbro had a child who decided to grow up and pursue a life of purity and christian worship. Thats NOT what vikings do.

Tyrjo
02-10-2019, 07:56 PM
I think a few changes for Raider could be:


Raiders Fury (The chained ZA) has hyper armor.
Stunning tap is undodgable.
Stunning tap can be hard feinted.
Light attacks (Basic and chained) are 500ms.

chukblok
02-10-2019, 08:10 PM
I think a few changes for Raider could be:


Raiders Fury (The chained ZA) has hyper armor.
Stunning tap is undodgable.
Stunning tap can be hard feinted.
Light attacks (Basic and chained) are 500ms.


id be happy even with 1,2 on this list. Raiders Fury is basically his bread and butter

MCBooma16
02-11-2019, 05:09 PM
I don't really think giving Raider an UB opener would be the best idea ever, I just think raider needs an extra soft feint, a LH or LHH or LHL chain, and faster lights.

Hyper armor would be pretty unnecessary, Raider just isn't a trader. HA with hard-hitting heavies would be kind of insane, especially within team fights along with the chained zone attack. He would need his damage values checked, which would take away from Raider's identity of being a hard-hitter.

Lotus.Sia
02-11-2019, 05:46 PM
1. 500ms neutral lights
2. Light to heavy chain
3. HA on his zone maybe?
4. Remove HA from Stampede Charge

Raider is a very strong ganker because of his Stampede Charge . If ubi ever rework or buff raider i think ubi would & should remove HA on raider from Stampede Charge just like they did with shugoki's hug which was death sentence.

LedgeAllegiance
02-12-2019, 01:51 AM
There are threads all over reddit about potential tweaks and updates, or even reworks, @Ubiflowessence.

A major one I see to give Raider is a L-H chain. Perhaps a L-H-L and/or L-H-H chain(s) just to keep it consistent with all Raider's three attack chain options.

Second thing, faster light attacks. 600ms does not work anymore, except out of anticipation to interrupt attacks. 500ms seems to be the best way to go, especially with how nicely Black Prior does and how more consistent WL is.

I don't really think Raider needs hyper armor since it would take away from Raider's identity a bit. It would be great, but Raider isn't a trader. He's a hard- hitting, high light parry-punishing hero with the best dodge GB in the game that suits for counter attacking. To play Raider, you need to get in your opponent's head and adjust when necessary.

The thing is, better players have no problem with Raider's current offense in 1v1's. And, unless you can parry lights consistently and get those nice 40dmg heavies, the only pressure a Raider can apply is with the zone 33/33/33.

Stunning tap is good, but maybe needs to be faster.

Raider can't get his damage in.

Raider for sure needs faster lights and quicker stunning tap. Maybe faster heavies, too, but I honestly like the 40dmg. If Ubi makes them faster they might go down to 35, similar to what happened to Shugoki.

I've seen lots of ideas.

MAYBE more soft feint options. Heavy to heavy or heavy to light soft feint from opposite side that can be accessed from any heavy in the chain. Even soft feint to left side into light or heavy from the zone.

Example: Right heavy, Left heavy but left heavy soft feinted to right side light or heavy. With a LHH or LHL chain available players would then be able to chain into another heavy after that soft feinted light, and soft feint to stunning tap as a mixup possibility. Here's the mixup:

H=Heavy. L=Light, ST=Stunning tap. SF=Soft feint.
Right H SF to Left L- Left H SF to ST- Zone- SF to Left L- Right H- Top L- Right H SF to Left H.

Assuming you have enough stam, that's theoretically a possible mixup. And, if I'm honest, that would be sick.

Summary:

°500ms lights
°Faster Stunning tap(If faster, lower damage to 16 or 15, from 18)
°Ability to soft feint heavies from left or right into another heavy or light.
°Light to heavy chain or chains to allow for less predictability and more mind games.
°Slightly less stamina consumption to allow for more neutral pressure with the zone attack.

With these simple changes, Raider will have more neutral 50/50 options. Raider will be able to perform soft feints to stunning taps or soft feints to the sides. With less stamina consumption, the combinations that will then be available with new chains and soft feint options will be phenomenal and excellent. There will also be more neutral pressure with the zone and a soft feint option to the left from the zone will make for some fun and inte eating gameplay.

Raider doesn't need an "opener" or hyper armor. He just needs quicker and better ways to access and maintain his mixups.

Sorry for the late reply but I agree with just about everything you said only thing I might consider is hyper armor on startup of heavy mixup and zone. Mainly because I get hit with a light a lot of times that interrupt me getting into a mixup or also gb right out of ub. No ha on heavy/light zone just neutral. I honestly wouldn't mind ha on startup of all heavies but I'm sure that would come with damage nerf and I'd like to keep his damage where it's at.

I think he needs an opener but dont have a good idea on that one but I would settle for 500ms lights and better tracking on all of his moves. I run into a problem of ppl being able to run away from all my mixups. Occasionally I get lucky and they try to dodge backwards early on ub and it tracks but to many times ppl dodge my attacks or run especially when I get revenge. They all just roll away and run and raider cant catch up.

I dont want to complain because I dont want anyone to take it the wrong way but the dodging gb is very buggy. I have to spam it when someone tries to gb in mid dodge and usually results in me gb the air but I'd rather keep it than lose it all together.

Great ideas though!

LedgeAllegiance
02-12-2019, 01:59 AM
1. 500ms neutral lights
2. Light to heavy chain
3. HA on his zone maybe?
4. Remove HA from Stampede Charge

Raider is a very strong ganker because of his Stampede Charge . If ubi ever rework or buff raider i think ubi would & should remove HA on raider from Stampede Charge just like they did with shugoki's hug which was death sentence.

If I'm not mistaken he doesnt have ha on stampede any more. I've got hit out of it a couple times but maybe it was a bad timing of stampede. I see both sides of it though. If it has ha then take the stam drain away if not keep the ha. To me its not hard to dodge and takes away from his mixups if he was to be lighted out of it. I use it all the time to get ppl go dodge and lock on gb during dodge to wall splat and start my mixups.

Agree with light/heavy chain and in my post below yours I get into ha on startup of heavies and neutral zone.

LionsFang78
02-12-2019, 04:00 PM
I have some ideas as to how to refine Raider to make him truly legendary

-500 ms lights, his 600 ms lights are currently parry bait.

-More chains. Light heavy heavy, heavy light heavy, etc. Right now Raider feels way too restricted for an "easy vanguard"

-Make zone attack from neutral (so not the finisher version of it) a bit faster. This will make it a better pressure tool.

-Allow raider to soft feint his heavy attacks and zone into a stunning tap from any direction he is not already attacking from. Example: soft feinting a top heavy into a stunning tap from the left or right. Keep the dazed effect exclusive to the top stunning tap though.

-Make stampede charge interruptable by enemy and ally attacks so it's not a death sentence in gank situations (the damage reduction during the animations is often times not enough).

I don't believe Raider needs hyper armor on any of his attacks, he's a vanguard and isn't really meant to trade

That's all Raider would need to become viable, and it maintains his play style. With faster light attacks, better chains and making stunning tap less predictable (without making it insanely fast) Raider should be able to hold his own in a 1v1 and open up turtles despite not having a bash attack. All of this at the cost of being a bit less useful in ganking, but I think many Raider mains would accept that trade. Thanks for the read :)

EvoX.
02-12-2019, 05:22 PM
I've picked up the hero recently after having thought I'd never play him, and he seems surprisingly satisfying. 600ms lights and overall zero offense is a bummer, but 40 damage light parries and getting that 45 dammage wallsplat? That's something I'm into, not to mention dodge-GB.

I agree with people here that he should have the standard 500ms lights, HA on both his zone versions with possibly a soft feint instead of a hard fent to GB, and a better Stunning Tap. Do that, and he's golden, the core of his kit is definitely good.

Knight_Raime
02-12-2019, 06:01 PM
Last time we heard about Raider from the devs was that he's currently got a mode he excels in (breach) so they don't sense the urgency to address him. But they wanted to make it clear that they do want to get to him at some point. On a personal note If centurion isn't reworked into it then Raider should be reworked to be a grappler character as he is the only other one that's fitting for that kind of identity. But whatever they end up giving him I hope they also remove/nerf his dodge into GB.

MCBooma16
02-12-2019, 06:04 PM
Sorry for the late reply but I agree with just about everything you said only thing I might consider is hyper armor on startup of heavy mixup and zone. Mainly because I get hit with a light a lot of times that interrupt me getting into a mixup or also gb right out of ub. No ha on heavy/light zone just neutral. I honestly wouldn't mind ha on startup of all heavies but I'm sure that would come with damage nerf and I'd like to keep his damage where it's at.

I think he needs an opener but dont have a good idea on that one but I would settle for 500ms lights and better tracking on all of his moves. I run into a problem of ppl being able to run away from all my mixups. Occasionally I get lucky and they try to dodge backwards early on ub and it tracks but to many times ppl dodge my attacks or run especially when I get revenge. They all just roll away and run and raider cant catch up.

I dont want to complain because I dont want anyone to take it the wrong way but the dodging gb is very buggy. I have to spam it when someone tries to gb in mid dodge and usually results in me gb the air but I'd rather keep it than lose it all together.

Great ideas though!

I suppose HA on startup heavy would be good, it works in gank and 1v1 situations really nicely, as seen with Shugoki. But, I think such a change would call for damage nerfs, at least on that first heavy. With Raider currently, a player can get 90 damage on a player or players in a gank. Yes, spacing and awareness is needed to get that damage off, and it's annoying when some cheeky Orochi lights you out of the first heavy or zone. If the first heavy gets HA, then it's possible Ubi would nerf the first heavy to 35 from 40 and the zone finisher to 40-45 from 50. Those are small value changes but I'd rather they find another way to tweak Raider.

In order to deal with getting interrupted, you need to expect it. Cancel heavies and zones, and wait for light attacks. Boom, 40-45 damage, it'll discourage them from trying too many interruptions and you may be able to initiate your zone attack options. Theoretically speaking, although I've done this countless times and sometimes it completely shuts the opponent down. Smarter opponents then try to do regular parries instead of light interruptions to change timings.

I honestly think Ubi can figure something out for Raider without adding some form of bash opener that guarantees damage. The Shugoki rework has no opening bashes whatsoever, and he has monstrous presence. That's due to the variable-timed heavies and HA, though. If Ubi can make Raider better without changing the identity like they did with Shugoki, I'd be absolutely satisfied. Of course, everything here is speculation, so I don't want to count on any one person's ideas making the rework.

Raider's main problems in 1v1 mainly comes with his light attacks and limited chains. WL did okay with his simple two chains because he had a quick bash and OOS pressure tool, which made players have to guess between light, heavy, GB, or headbutt. If Raider's neutral and chain lights were faster, it would make a significant difference. When characters are just slow, it stalls the fight. You can see now that Shugoki and WL now have very fun and aggressive styles since 500ms lights allow them to initiate attacks and keep a good and intimidating flow going. You need to pay attention to them, now.

With Raider, if it isn't a zone mixup, there's nothing to be worried about. Raider isn't nearly as bad as Lawbringer since Raider can perform his UB zone from neutral or chain it after a light or heavy. That's about the only mind game Raider has. Lights do not work, except maybe getting lucky and interrupting attacks, but they're just not good.

I don't normally have problems with people backing or dodging away. If I can see they're out of stam and dodging back, I just run straight at them, lock on, zone, feint, and forward dodge GB. I can then get my free light to zone combo off for 65 damage if they dodged.

I've never seen anyone roll away from my zone mixups, Raider isn't that intimidating of a 50/50 it seems.

Dodge GB is cool on Raider, because you can either GB mid-dodge really really early, or after his full dodge recovery, which is really short.

It's a spacing thing you probably miscalculated. If you spammed GB after dodge and GBd the air, the opponent was too far away and you didn't even need to GB.
I find the dodge GB useful for countering bashes and light attacks. If you press GB too early for longer attacks you might bounce off and eat a heavy. There are variable timings on the dodge GB that take a quick eye in executing the proper GB. That all comes down to knowing your opponents recovery timings.

jortakk
02-13-2019, 11:56 AM
One thing I'd love, can we actually have the "zone" property on his in chain Raider Fury so it can be used more often, isn't as punishing, and actually behaves like its meant to?

Ubiflowessence
02-14-2019, 02:26 AM
Hey guys,

Just wanted to pop in and say that I've been gathering all of your feedback and will be sharing this with the team.

Kadete93
02-14-2019, 08:01 PM
Maybe i'm wrong but.. Raider updates confirmed for the next season?

EvoX.
02-14-2019, 11:46 PM
Maybe i'm wrong but.. Raider updates confirmed for the next season?

That what confirmed in the den.

Season 10 seems to be for Raider and Lawbringer.

Xeith98zz
02-15-2019, 01:38 AM
They have the right idea, both the best looking heroes. So does this mean next year then? Quite a ways off for just a rework.

Kadete93
02-15-2019, 02:24 PM
They have the right idea, both the best looking heroes. So does this mean next year then? Quite a ways off for just a rework.

No, dude. Just a few months to wait. Season 10 is starting on May

Xeith98zz
02-16-2019, 12:14 AM
****. You're right, dunno why i thought a season lasts a year. I can accurately contain my hype now. We get the weeb next season? Or hammerboi?

chukblok
02-16-2019, 04:30 AM
I must say I am thrilled (and totally surprised) there is a raider rework!

MCBooma16
02-16-2019, 04:43 PM
I must say I am thrilled (and totally surprised) there is a raider rework!

I don't know if we'll get a full on rework for Raider. He's super viable in fours, and can sometimes do pretty well in duels if the person can parry.

With the way LB plays and how very limited he is, I'm sure they'll make massive changes. LB is very bad if I'm honest, and the closest thing to an opener is shove on block, which is more annoying than effective.

As for Raider, I speculate 500ms lights, an extra chain or chains, and maybe ONE extra tool or utility/change that could make a significant difference for duels. I bet the aforementioned speculations above are the ones I'm very sure 99% of Raider mains would probably agree with me for buffs.

People worry about how changes to 1v1 viability could disrupt the viability of 4v4s. That simply doesn't make sense. If Raider had better and more tools to work with, that's just better in my opinion.

They did say "Raider mains will be very happy to see what we have, or at least they should be" They may really have something juicy coming. Can't wait.