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F-six
11-22-2010, 01:56 AM
Pretty tough. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

12.7 mm vs FW-190A-5 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Q7v2AH0nWI)

F-six
11-22-2010, 01:56 AM
Pretty tough. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

12.7 mm vs FW-190A-5 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Q7v2AH0nWI)

moilami
11-22-2010, 03:16 AM
Lol, the gunner did not use .50 cal anti material shells. Had he used the proper .50 cals it would had been like many eye witness reports say. Look below how it would had been in real.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v...AKb4&feature=related (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UwlALS1AKb4&feature=related)

Erkki_M
11-22-2010, 03:31 AM
Looks like he misses most of the rounds...

Yeah, the 50 cals are undermodelled... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XeqzMXtqcss

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

moilami
11-22-2010, 04:02 AM
Oi, Erkki! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif

I happened to join =69.GIAP= then as the first ever Finnish recruit http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_cool.gif Not sure though should I be ashamed of it rather than proud http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/shady.gif http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/51.gif

No matter, the Squadron is really great (no need for better) and we beat LLv34 hands down on Eastern Front (or at least will beat) http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_cool.gif

Greetings to LLv34_Untamo too http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

DKoor
11-22-2010, 04:50 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Erkki_M:
Looks like he misses most of the rounds...

Yeah, the 50 cals are undermodelled... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XeqzMXtqcss

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>Good thing as we all know that unlike with MG151/20 , .50cal blew up, set a/c on fire or dewing almost with every successful burst http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif.

In truth, some realistic online server like WarClouds, difference between flying aircraft equipped with cannons vs HMG equipped one is nothing short of a cruel joke and self inflicted masochism on side that flies with HMG.

Just the other day I was flying the P-51D and jumped on unsuspecting 109G6AS... one good burst, he leaked fuel and trailed coolant (?), then I ran away in order to "exhaust" him, he really did not have many options but to give chase, of course even with healthy craft he wouldn't stand a chance of catching up so he gave up and ran for home. I then gave a chase overtook him rather easily scored shots on 109 but he was still airworthy. I went for position in order to finally destroy him (magical 1eAir added to your stat) but by that time we were already on deck over the front (crossing blue/red line) and I just heard MG151/20 quack for some 1,26587 sec next thing I know my P-51 exploded. Some random guy just picked me up because of my own fault for being fixated with finishing my kill. Would it be happening if I had flew Tempest? Bah... here is another moral of the story.

Next day I was up there in Tempest.
Spotted a P-51 flying quite low over the target area he was probably chasing something... I seeked around and spotted the low flying FW in vicinity so I gave chase. The guy haven't seen me.
Since track speaks 1000 words here it is (for those interested);
http://www.filefactory.com/fil...temp_2ea_wc_409.ntrk (http://www.filefactory.com/file/b45hfc1/n/dkoortemp_2ea_wc_409.ntrk)
...even with ~ average gunnery.

For me the Tempest is slightly less stable than FW but on the other hand you have more agile aircraft and set of four nice cannons that really make sure that target doesn't survive after being hit.
I don't think that I'd be having the same success in P-51 or some other random MG/HMG plane. In fact I'm sure I wouldn't. Mind you I was hitting the 109 with .50cal which is softer target than those FW-190D's (although the hitting effect was somewhat diminished due to firing from dead 6 in lack of better opportunity)... http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-indifferent.gif

But also without going into FM/DM opinion and similar fairy tales one needs to be realistic and say that there are worlds apart in toughness between flying HMG and cannon equipped plane.
Again just to mention that in test conditions and offline .50cal works fine and better than ONLINE versus real human players due to the nature, I have a nice track proving just that in my sig, I shot down four low flying FW JABOs, every pass on FW was on fire (POWER of .50cal track!).
Of course online, where you get less opportunity for that nice/ideal shot, where you in general get a lot less opportunity, it would all be different...

In short; to original poster, check out the FW toughness in my Tempest link above when you hit them with nice cannons http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/winky.gif .

Erkki_M
11-22-2010, 11:08 AM
Yep, though even just 4 x 50 cals in wings is still pretty easy, even online, compared to having just 2 SAFATs or almost as bad 109F2's 2 MGs and MG151/15.

And not the least vs. certain Soviet crafts that you practically cant de-tail/de-wing with the available ammunition on board, and that dont have engine or coolant damage modelled.

I think I online, even at the precious WC server which I dont think is very difficult at all, down a 190/109 with about every second burst using P51D, which I usually fly there. You just cant jump from a completely different behaving craft with nothing the same in armament. If I now jumped to a Yak I dont think I could hit much for the first few tries, for very least. Dedication helps, and there are guys who can show that even stock game's "undermodelled" P-51 can be extremely dangerous to Axis hardware. Much more so than Spitfires, for example.

Moilami, when does 69. GIAP join the Real online campaign, ADW? Those DF servers are boring. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

ytareh
11-22-2010, 12:03 PM
I recently dewinged a FW190 with Hurricane 2Bs 12x.303 MGs in a short burst set to 100m convergence....Quite pleased with that!

You can also dewing Hurris with the Italian Breda Safats in MC200 with a (lot ) of luck!

DKoor
11-22-2010, 12:18 PM
I agree... however I just implied that there is big similarity between flying FW-190D and P-51D, but FW is much more rewarding solely because of cannons... sure it behaves better (no violent stalls etc.) , even turns better than P-51D but in all truth they are quite evenly matched if it wasn't for armament. So in all honesty I fail to see how someone who does a good job in P-51D simply wouldn't do better in FW-190D with little to no adjustment.

About Spitfire, yeah I also regard P-51D more dangerous plane that Spitfire, but many Spitfires have their own little playground near deck and they usually play a whole different game than speedier aircraft. Never really viewed Spitfire as some miracle... in fact in my time spent behind FW stick @ WarClouds I've been shot down maybe once or twice by a Spitfires (believe me I remember being shot only once by a Spitfire).
Same thing about P-51s, they downed me also only once, but this sole time I was downed by Ponies I actually crash landed on friendly territory unlike vs Spit when I was dewinged & had to bail. I actually remember it quite vividly... the guy made two passes on me, damaged my wing on first pass then made few paint chips on second (because I was aware of his presence, so when presented with evading target he couldn't do significant damage).
Also unlike Spits, those 51s caught me fair number of times, but shot me down only once... in fact I shot down them down several times after I first shook them off of my tail http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif . Speaks volumes, really.

Nah... when you fly FW and see the Tempest closing in on you, you may as well immediately hit CTRL+E as there is little hope (that "little" is only because you may be in luck that the guy behind Tempest stick is a noob); P-47s are also quite lethal but not so because of their added .50cals than their ability to actually match FW's maneuvers and are considerably more stable planes so they can track you with fifties thru maneuvers more so than 51s. Generally speaking I wasn't shot down much while flying FW. Can't count the times I simply firewalled the throttle and got away from angry Spit.
109 was a whole another story, Spitfire is much much more dangerous plane if you fly 109... you actually must pay attention to what you do at any given moment if you don't want to be shot down by them. Let alone others.

When it comes to maneuvering there is no aircraft on WTO that does it better than a Spitfire, and on the other hand Spit is usually the slowest crate on map, so I fail to see why they shouldn't fly lower, in clouds or similar alts and praying on those overzealous LW a/c.
Also in all honesty at altitude, unless they posses more energy advantage (really more) than their contemporary adversaries (especially FW) , they can only cry & watch those 190s & 109s (in most cases) slipping away from them and there is nothing they can do about it.
More so, to add to the frustration they are also easier to being picked on at altitude by a bnzers than other crates all because of their speed. Or lack of thereof.

All this coming from a guy who was dealing and receiving damage in all those planes...

BillSwagger
11-22-2010, 12:46 PM
I have a lot of success with 50 cals, but i often notice i get better results offline.
I wonder if ping had something to do with that.

Has anyone ever noticed that you get a better spread with a pair of wing cannons than with a six gun platform?

Erkki_M
11-22-2010, 01:03 PM
Ping as long as connection is stable has nothing do with it. If you see a hit, thats a hit, unless the guy you hit is already disconnected and soon kicked out.

With less stable connections however the target might "warp" a little or fly(at your screen) unsmoothly, resulting in less hits.

BillSwagger
11-22-2010, 01:17 PM
I wouldn't rule out ping.
I just know offline i can readily ignite engines on ETO aircraft where online i might only render a fuel leak, considering other variables of the fight are exactly the same. The end result still might be a kill.

Online there are hit counters, too, which make it easier to track those sort of things.

Romanator21
11-22-2010, 02:42 PM
Oh my, what a surprise!

Four 20mm cannon are more destructive than 4-6 .50 cals! Who would have believed it! I'm glad I can have the opportunity to learn something new when reading through these forums!

Question guys - is the 30mm round more destructive than even the 20mm? That would be just crazy! It might mean that all 20mm guns are porked!? What do you think?

F-six
11-22-2010, 03:06 PM
25 mm vs FW-190

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MQ1N-0eLXag

DKoor
11-22-2010, 03:21 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Romanator21:
Oh my, what a surprise!

Four 20mm cannon are more destructive than 4-6 .50 cals! Who would have believed it! I'm glad I can have the opportunity to learn something new when reading through these forums!

Question guys - is the 30mm round more destructive than even the 20mm? That would be just crazy! It might mean that all 20mm guns are porked!? What do you think? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>My humble opinion is that you missed the point.
And thus, back to the FM/DM fairy tales... this game never really favoured MGs or HMGs or anything else that doesn't explode when it lands on target surface.
Since some of the cannon shells explode upon impact they actually catch DM boxes in this game so they produce good results unlike armor piercing rounds.
Few years ago there was Luftstorm of whining in Oleg's Ready Room because someone apparently found out that MG151/20 gondollas produce less damage than those MG151/20 mounted in the nose. After some investigation it was in fact found out that the belting in those was different than the prop hub cannon belting.
The later in fact had more of those popular Minengeschoss rounds that explode upon impact on target surface.
Therefore you can say it with 100% accuracy that for any kind of air to air combat you want your belt in this game to be filled with those only, or as much as possible. You don't want armor piercing 20mm's in your belt as they lower your air to air efficiency. Same with all other cannons too - less api more he.
It is of course quite obvious how the point of this story translates to our machine guns story.

Or... should I put it this way... putting only armour piercing in canons would result in some radically worse game experience of their users, much to the joy of their victims.

Also... caliber has 0% to do with this story http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif .

VW-IceFire
11-22-2010, 04:31 PM
Ultimately it comes down to the damage model. IL-2s damage models started off complex for the age of the game but even those were quite simplistic and the details continued to increase as new planes were added. Try the .50cal against something relatively recent and you see the effects of your damage more readily then against some of the older types that lack various types of modeling (the Yak series for example - hard to tell but the engine just dies rather than having any specific type of damage modeling).

It's all been improved over the years and we've gotten away from the concrete damage models that the FW190 and LaGG-3 used to have (there are still a couple lurking around that are newer types ironically).

But it really comes down to the type of damage and how it's simulated. Heavy machine guns do have a slight disadvantage. Until we have a new game engine it'll always be that way as I see it... modeling it different with the values we have would probably make things less consistent although I can think of a couple of changes that could help.

In the end I find my .50cal results vary. From the days where I blast away with seemingly little result to the days where, flying a 2x.50cal machine, I de-wing and destroy the opposition in a very short burst. Maybe roll a dice and see if it's your day today or not http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Romanator21
11-22-2010, 04:44 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content"> Also... caliber has 0% to do with this story </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

That's why I used the word "cannon" which implies some sort of explosive belting. There are only two varieties in the game that are purely AP cannon.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content"> My humble opinion is that you missed the point. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Did I?

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content"> In truth, some realistic online server like WarClouds, difference between flying aircraft equipped with cannons vs HMG equipped one is nothing short of a cruel joke and self inflicted masochism on side that flies with HMG. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content"> But also without going into FM/DM opinion and similar fairy tales one needs to be realistic and say that there are worlds apart in toughness between flying HMG and cannon equipped plane. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Looks to me like you're saying that heavy machine guns and cannon are different.(surprise!)

This is what my sarcastic post above is also about. I'm just annoyed that it's being treated like a revelation.

Yes, HMG are not as great as explosive cannon shells when it comes down to our online DF world. Why then were they such "war winners" historically? Because they were relatively cheap and easy to produce in enormous quantities, were reliable, had more experienced pilots behind them, and were mounted on planes that could go deeper into enemy territory (correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think Spits encountered as many ea in the late war as Mustangs did).

In our IL-2 universe, cannons never jam unless shot, eliminating that advantage HMG had (would you or anyone you know still fly the dreaded 4x Hispano Spit if the guns could jam at any moment?). Online there is an even distribution of skilled pilots on "Red" and "Blue". Pilots also take greater risks because of that refly button (would you have chased that 109 if the situation was real? maybe you would have had a wingman watching your a$$ too? and maybe that wingman is not a Spit-jock who would rather run and steal your points by squirting in a couple more rounds than actually help you out when trouble comes).

Other pilots can hear your engine when you approach and will suddenly pull a Split-S and disappear even when they were flying "fat-dumb-and-happy" and not making the proper clearing turns that every veteran did constantly in order to avoid ambush. This can make it hard to get close enough to let convergence do the work and get that nice clean "tail-ripped off" kill. Over a given target area, there are as many or more Spits than there are Lightnings, Thunderbolts, and Mustangs combined, effectively competing with the HMG fliers for the available targets. There are also typically more of the rare Dora stalking the skies than there are of the historically common Bf-109.

I could go on and on, but I think you get the idea:

The odds in the IL-2 universe are heavily stacked against the HMG jocks. If WWII played out like War Clouds, I wouldn't be surprised if planes like the P-47 would be relegated to second-line duties (Still, I prefer to fly HMG equipped planes over any other - I think they're more fun).

It should be no surprise anyway that HMG are not as effective as cannon, round-per-round. However, they are no pea-shooters either, and given proper historical scenarios, would be a wunder-weapon as any other in the game.

Buzzsaw-
11-22-2010, 06:19 PM
The so called 'armour' on WWII aircraft is very limited.

The FW-190 was a relatively 'tough' aircraft, but that was really a function of its ability to take damage to components and be able to limp back to base. It did not mean the aircraft could survive being hit and function just as well as an untouched plane.

There are no armoured sections on any parts of the wings, or fuselage with the exception of the cockpit area. All bullets hitting the wings and fuselage are encountering thin aluminum sheeting over thin aluminum structural ribs.

Even in the cockpit, the armour is very limited. The only glass which is armoured is the single flat screen directly ahead. All other cockpit 'glass' is plexiglass, bullets pass through it as though it doesn't exist. Behind the pilot's seat and head mounting is a 7mm thick hardened steel plate, but that is only guaranteed to resist rifle calibre, (LMG) bullets. At ranges below 300 meters, an HMG bullet or cannon round will go through it.

There is no armour around the engine, with the exception of a single thin armoured ring around the circular oil cooler in the nose, and the fan blades, nothing directly protects the engine from shots striking from the side or rear of its cowling.

The fuel tanks do not have armour either, only the self sealing liquid rubber lining (between two solid rubber sheets) which is only guaranteed to seal rifle calibre holes. If a large enough burst of of HMG or cannon hits the fuel tank, the self sealer is not going to be able to ooze out and fill the gap.

WWII aircraft were extremely vulnerable to being hit by gunfire. Unless a round hit the fuselage or wing in an empty space, ie. between ribs/struts and encounters no control cables/rods or other important elements were the results going to be innocuous.

RegRag1977
11-23-2010, 06:19 AM
To me 50 cals efficiency is not so badly modelled, of course some DM are a bit off, nothing is perfect but still i can now do better with 50 cals than with any other weapon.

The thing that -to me- is not modelled correctly is the visual effect of the shells impacting on the aircraft surface:

canons: not really realistic huge orange yellow fireball with thick and long lasting, visible at long ranges, white (20mm) or black smoke (30mm and larger), when shells hit.

These effects really helps your gunnery training process, especially in high def passes when you have no time to check the actual hits on the ac: with canon shells you can check by the remaining big puffs (or clouds i shoud rather say http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif ) even at farther distances to know if you hit and how hardly you hit: this is what really makes the learning process far easier for canon gunnery!

HMG: microscopic sparks, and strange (i mean modelled after what?) ugly speck of green dust lol, that cannot easily be seen at distance making the HMG advantage at long range a disadvantage in game.

I tried to explain my point of view in a thread some times ago: in most 50 cals guncam one can watch on YT, we see that 50 cals too produced smoke puffs, less thick of course, but ingame we have nothing like that, and this i think is the reason why some people are not wanting to use it, to train to be good with it. ingame effect <span class="ev_code_YELLOW">makes it very hard to set the convergence properly</span> , and since it is more training for less efficiency people are discouraged and ask to make the ammo belt different (incendiary) or more potent, when in fact the belting we have is already very potent.

http://forums.ubi.com/eve/foru...283/m/6641060368/p/1 (http://forums.ubi.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/23110283/m/6641060368/p/1)

Bankoletti
11-23-2010, 06:51 AM
It would be interesting to run these tests with the arcade=1 setting in conf.ini.

RegRag1977
11-23-2010, 06:59 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Erkki_M:
Ping as long as connection is stable has nothing do with it. If you see a hit, thats a hit, unless the guy you hit is already disconnected and soon kicked out.

With less stable connections however the target might "warp" a little or fly(at your screen) unsmoothly, resulting in less hits. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

The problem is that when using 50 cals i almost always need at least 3 or 4 second "hitting bursts", which i call pursuit shots, during which i am maneuvering/correcting my aim and firing: this rather long (for me coming from canon equipped ac) time is the minimum "hitting" (not firing time which is obviously slightely superior) time needed to cause fire, dewing or explode an AC (with Pacific being the exception where you can just fly your us plane as you would with a canon equiped ac: japanese aircraft (zeke and likes) take fire or get major damage and PK as quickly as would an ETO plane under canon fire.

So I need to be able to correct my angle constantly and more so in the middle of my attack when my target knows i'm hitting him.
Unfortunately often the target then uses all his maneuvering possibilities to dodge, his moves causing my game to slow down this helping him, now severly damaged, to be shot down by another one, otherwise he would mine just like the offline AI.
This is sometimes frustrating in my online experience with 50 cals. But it is not due to the 50 modelling!
I always thought i was due to lag...

BillSwagger
11-23-2010, 07:45 AM
For what it counts here's a track of me in an 190A-8
http://www.filefront.com/17549961/190A-8 vs P-51.ntrk
I had to scissor with a Mustang for a bit and i never took hits from him. We got separated in a cloud which set up a head on and allowed me to get the kill with half a click of ammo.

Is the 190A-8 the heaviest of the 190s, in game?


Bill

DKoor
11-23-2010, 08:04 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Romanator21:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content"> Also... caliber has 0% to do with this story </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

That's why I used the word "cannon" which implies some sort of explosive belting. There are only two varieties in the game that are purely AP cannon.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content"> My humble opinion is that you missed the point. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Did I?

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content"> In truth, some realistic online server like WarClouds, difference between flying aircraft equipped with cannons vs HMG equipped one is nothing short of a cruel joke and self inflicted masochism on side that flies with HMG. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content"> But also without going into FM/DM opinion and similar fairy tales one needs to be realistic and say that there are worlds apart in toughness between flying HMG and cannon equipped plane. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Looks to me like you're saying that heavy machine guns and cannon are different.(surprise!)

This is what my sarcastic post above is also about. I'm just annoyed that it's being treated like a revelation.

Yes, HMG are not as great as explosive cannon shells when it comes down to our online DF world. Why then were they such "war winners" historically? Because they were relatively cheap and easy to produce in enormous quantities, were reliable, had more experienced pilots behind them, and were mounted on planes that could go deeper into enemy territory (correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think Spits encountered as many ea in the late war as Mustangs did).

In our IL-2 universe, cannons never jam unless shot, eliminating that advantage HMG had (would you or anyone you know still fly the dreaded 4x Hispano Spit if the guns could jam at any moment?). Online there is an even distribution of skilled pilots on "Red" and "Blue". Pilots also take greater risks because of that refly button (would you have chased that 109 if the situation was real? maybe you would have had a wingman watching your a$$ too? and maybe that wingman is not a Spit-jock who would rather run and steal your points by squirting in a couple more rounds than actually help you out when trouble comes).

Other pilots can hear your engine when you approach and will suddenly pull a Split-S and disappear even when they were flying "fat-dumb-and-happy" and not making the proper clearing turns that every veteran did constantly in order to avoid ambush. This can make it hard to get close enough to let convergence do the work and get that nice clean "tail-ripped off" kill. Over a given target area, there are as many or more Spits than there are Lightnings, Thunderbolts, and Mustangs combined, effectively competing with the HMG fliers for the available targets. There are also typically more of the rare Dora stalking the skies than there are of the historically common Bf-109.

I could go on and on, but I think you get the idea:

The odds in the IL-2 universe are heavily stacked against the HMG jocks. If WWII played out like War Clouds, I wouldn't be surprised if planes like the P-47 would be relegated to second-line duties (Still, I prefer to fly HMG equipped planes over any other - I think they're more fun).

It should be no surprise anyway that HMG are not as effective as cannon, round-per-round. However, they are no pea-shooters either, and given proper historical scenarios, would be a wunder-weapon as any other in the game. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
First off.... why such a hostile tone?
Second no one talked about real life scenarios...

Everything what I said here is my own experience and if you have different one, sure I respect that. But I'd appreciate if you stop with patronizing and raising tensions for nothing.

moilami1
11-23-2010, 12:40 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">
Moilami, when does 69. GIAP join the Real online campaign, ADW? Those DF servers are boring. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

What's ADW?

(Had to make a new account since I was unable to login succesfully with my original one. I by the way hate this forum software dearly and this shall be my second to last posting here.)

Erkki, we do SEOW online war campaigns three times a week (we having a major role) and once a week (we having a minor role) http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif At the moment there is one Burma, one Midway, and two Eastern Front campaings going on http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/typing.gif

We also have a WOMAN (at her best age) as the best one on one dogfighter (VVS had women flying in real, imagine the immersion) http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/10.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/winky.gif

We have very good trainers and great fellas http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/11.gif

I seriously think =69.GIAP= can be the best online squadron in the world http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/heart.gif

Anyway, be welcome to visit our forums and fly some SEOW missions with us. I don't think our squadron have restrictions regarding memberships on other squadrons http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif

moilami1
11-23-2010, 01:14 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">
Second no one talked about real life scenarios... </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

That's very good since:

Dudes u don't get it...50 cal is teh best MG in the world. Periods. It be made in USA. It is best. The biggest. I mean Huge. Nothing like some regular .50 cals. It is teh BIGGEST freaking BADASS .50 cal in the world, made in USA. It PWNS!! HARD!!

And as some IRL evidence just watch the video below. P-51, which won teh war (lol epic ownage), overshooted a ship in it and thus fired accidentally only ONE .50 cal bullet. Just look woot happened.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rcKX4wCcU5k

Fix .50 cals asap pls. I haven't ever seen the same effect in IL-2. And make P-51 as it was, the most awesome war winner poownage badarse plane armed with the most pure ownage guns ever made, the .50 cal "Tiger Flippers".



P.S. Chill people http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif Lets hope things keep staying IMBALANCED and sims REALISTICAL. No make SoW WoW http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/compsmash.gif

R_Target
11-23-2010, 02:30 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by moilami1:
Dudes u don't get it...50 cal is teh best MG in the world. Periods. It be made in USA. It is best. The biggest. I mean Huge. Nothing like some regular .50 cals. It is teh BIGGEST freaking BADASS .50 cal in the world, made in USA. It PWNS!! HARD!!

And as some IRL evidence just watch the video below. P-51, which won teh war (lol epic ownage), overshooted a ship in it and thus fired accidentally only ONE .50 cal bullet. Just look woot happened.

Fix .50 cals asap pls. I haven't ever seen the same effect in IL-2. And make P-51 as it was, the most awesome war winner poownage badarse plane armed with the most pure ownage guns ever made, the .50 cal "Tiger Flippers". </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Awesome sarcasm. You really nailed it. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif

moilami1
11-23-2010, 02:48 PM
Thanks, your words were important because I did not want to offend anyone. I respect very much this forum because I have spent hours reading very interesting and entertaining posts here, and it took me about three years to do what was said here many times: join on some good online squadron. I finally did, thanks to this forum http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/11.gif and it was really the very best thing to do.

Romanator21
11-23-2010, 04:04 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">First off.... why such a hostile tone?
Second no one talked about real life scenarios...

Everything what I said here is my own experience and if you have different one, sure I respect that. But I'd appreciate if you stop with patronizing and raising tensions for nothing. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Ah, well, it certainly wasn't my intent to be hostile. My apologies if that's how my post comes across. Maybe if it was at least a phone conversation, you would be laughing with me.

Second - Your post sounded very much like a complaint (...50 cals are porked compared to cannons...) and I lost my patience. I brought in "real life" to the discussion to explore it as a comparison with the intention to show that it's not necessarily the gun that's being modeled incorrectly, it's the situation, which doesn't allow the aircraft or weapons to shine as they did historically.

moilami1
11-23-2010, 05:48 PM
Here is "Russian Combat Experiences with the FW-190", if anyone is interested.

http://www.scribd.com/doc/3597...-to-16-December-1943 (http://www.scribd.com/doc/35978019/Tactical-and-Technical-Trends-No-37-40-12-August-1943-to-16-December-1943)

It talks about armour and even machine guns quite hilariously: "Even bullets from our large caliber machine guns penetrate this armour, to say nothing of cannon".

Read but don't begin to fight http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/59.gif

M_Gunz
11-23-2010, 06:28 PM
If the 190 is so hilarious then what is Yak?

moilami1
11-23-2010, 07:12 PM
Which Yak? http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_cool.gif Lets suppose you meant Yak-9U. Lets see what my combat report (pilot notes) said after my first ever Yak flight and maybe, hmm, my third ever online war combat flight.

/*

An excellent mission! Flew in Gel3 with Promak and others. We climbed high in the beginning and quite soon got engaged with some bandits. It looked awesome high in the sky with all those white condensated water trails behind the planes. Plenty of geomethry! Sadly though I was not sure should I keep sharp eye on Promak or on bandits. I chose bandits because it looked like one could sneak behind me. Not long after I lost confirmed Promak and chose pretty confirmed other Ally to follow. The bandits got away and Gel3 regrouped.

Next Gel3 split and I flew with Promak near to an airfield. He saw bogeys and went to investigate, I covered. However I lost visual on him and he lost visual on bogeys. I found bogeys and since I was lost of Promak I went to check bogeys. Found four German bombers! They did not try to shoot even though they could and I did not want to get shot down, so I went carefull and begun to climb on their side to high. At this point one tried to shoot but missed.

One bomber got hit of flag and begun smoking, dropping away of the formation. I was finally ready for the first dive on the bombers and flipped the plane over slowly, but what a disappointment! I did not saw the enemy where they should had been, and more, I was unable to find them! Imagine that! Three bombers for me alone, and I lost them http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/bigtears.gif

However they never shot me down either. But I will learn for sure to flip over faster next AND MAINTAIN THE FREAKING VIS while doing it making sure in general bandits can't fool me 6 - 0 like they did now! I WILL DAMN MAKE SURE NO HUN GET AWAY LIKE THAT NEXT TIME. Can't believe what I though when I flipped to the left instead of right. Or actually I do know, I imagined I would get a more smooth dive at them. FAIL! FAIL! FAIL! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

No matter, it was great fun! I regrouped with Promak over our airfield and we kept patrolling to the point where I was so low on fuel I had to head to the airfield and face another fail. I was flying so slow I was sure there would be no probs to hit landing gear down, but FAIL! CHECK THE FREAKING SPEEDOMETER http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif I saw stuff breaking on my left and knew that was my landing gear. Was a huge pity to know that now the Sweet Yak-9U will get damaged http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/bigtears.gif

The landing was not that bad in the end though, all wings intact, no fire, no smoke, on the taxiway to not make a wreck to the main airfield. Next time I will take you sweetly down dear Yasha! I promise.

*/

Hilarious? Hahaha, no, Sweet and Dear Yasha http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/heart.gif

M_Gunz
11-23-2010, 07:34 PM
And now please, how hard it is for bullets to penetrate and damage poor, lightweight Yak. If FW is hilarious then Yak is what? Total joke? Maybe why I liked LaGG in early war as VVS but no, I liked the MiG even more!

Seriously I can't see the Russians finding the FW so easy to down not looking to their own, you dig?

moilami1
11-23-2010, 07:41 PM
But the thing is you should not get hit by bullets. Bullets be bad, hurts. You are not a tank. And I don't even want to say how much .50 cals hurt! So always avoid being hit by bullets. With Dear and Sweet Yasha it is easy!

F-six
11-23-2010, 08:32 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by moilami1:
Dudes u don't get it...50 cal is teh best MG in the world. Periods. It be made in USA. It is best. The biggest. I mean Huge. Nothing like some regular .50 cals. It is teh BIGGEST freaking BADASS .50 cal in the world, made in USA. It PWNS!! HARD!!

And as some IRL evidence just watch the video below. P-51, which won teh war (lol epic ownage), overshooted a ship in it and thus fired accidentally only ONE .50 cal bullet. Just look woot happened.

Fix .50 cals asap pls. I haven't ever seen the same effect in IL-2. And make P-51 as it was, the most awesome war winner poownage badarse plane armed with the most pure ownage guns ever made, the .50 cal "Tiger Flippers". </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

This topic was originally meant to be about how great teh FW-190 is.

Oh and by the way, 50 cals are bb guns compared to this:
http://i783.photobucket.com/albums/yy113/F-six/pwn.jpg

6x 20mm Cannons + 2x 13mm Heavy machine guns = uber awesomeness. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

AndyJWest
11-23-2010, 09:01 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">uber awesomeness. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Yeah... But not-quite-uber-turning-fightingness.

WWII piston-engined fighters were all based on much the same technology, and all designs were the result of compromise, both in terms of individual performance, and in terms of production capacity, logistics and the rest. The Fw 190 was a good example of getting the balance right during the mid-war period, but it wasn't unique, any more than the Spitfire, the P-51, or any other aircraft. It still needed a good pilot to make it anything more than an aluminium noise-making machine.

K_Freddie
11-23-2010, 09:53 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by moilami1:
What's ADW?
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>
A real bad-*** russian campaign server, AFAIR. Also one of the easiest servers to use/play on AND a nice 5 minute 'Death-Kick' the last time I played on it.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by moilami1:
We also have a WOMAN (at her best age) as the best one on one dogfighter (VVS had women flying in real, imagine the immersion) http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/10.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/winky.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
So....

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by moilami1:
I seriously think =69.GIAP= can be the best online squadron in the world http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/heart.gif
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>
It looks a great setup, but eveyone likes different things. I personally avoid such groupings, as it leads to skills complacency, and find playing on many various servers you'll always find somebody who'll teach you a lesson or two - which is what I look for. If anything, ADW was the place to find such people.

Well, this was the way it was.. not playing much lately and waiting for SoW.
http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_cool.gif

Erkki_M
11-23-2010, 11:40 PM
8-min ban and loss of the plane and resources, Freddie.

I dont know about the best squadron, but best division is... http://www.adw.alkar.net/en/divisions/all/index.html http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

And yep agree with Gunz, 190's seat armor and structures might not be enough to stop even a Berezin 12,7 from point blank to 2-300m, let alone a cannon round AP, but I'd like to know what would happen, if, say, a 20mm Minengeschloss round, hits a Yak or LaGG, in real life. There are enough videos showing what just a couple of ill-aimed hits could do to Hurricanes and Spitfires.

RegRag1977
11-24-2010, 04:37 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by moilami1:
But the thing is you should not get hit by bullets. Bullets be bad, hurts. You are not a tank. And I don't even want to say how much .50 cals hurt! So always avoid being hit by bullets. With Dear and Sweet Yasha it is easy! </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I guess it was easy indeed to dodge german flak by outurning it, lol, especially down low and exposed, you know there where russian aircraft generally operated http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif .
Or being bounced by 109 while covering IL2, do you actually know how many brave Russian pilots were lost to German fighters?

Only used in a game environment against untrained opposition may the Yak look "easy", during the war it wasn't like this: Russian pilots really had to be courageous, skilled, humble, lucky and altruists to survive, just like any other pilots you may rightly say.

But anyway I cannot imagine them saying something childish and naive (to say the least) like "With dear and sweet yasha it is easy!" http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

moilami1
11-24-2010, 05:33 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">But anyway I cannot imagine them saying something childish and naive (to say the least) like "With dear and sweet yasha it is easy!" http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

lol owned

ofc u wont i am hardly not surprised http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/51.gif

May I help you good Sir? Pay attention to the grammatical tense. Note too She is Yasha. Dear and Sweet Yasha http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/heart.gif

And it would be appreciated if you good Sir would not begin to *define* what brave Russian pilots would say, especially regarding to Sweet and Dear Yasha. Remember you never were there with your boring dead serious attitude.

Besides, what the **** is wrong with you? Why so serious? No matter, think about it and try chew this:

http://i56.tinypic.com/1zx5bom.jpg

Now, bring it on sucker. I have my flamer ready http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/icon_twisted.gif BRING IT

Erkki_M
11-24-2010, 07:02 AM
In game 190 might be well armoured and durable... But just look at the LaGG-3.

1:20, thats 4 x MG151/20 and 2 x MK108 firing: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jZSETzqmFtU

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

moilami1
11-24-2010, 08:16 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Erkki_M:
In game 190 might be well armoured and durable... But just look at the LaGG-3.

1:20, thats 4 x MG151/20 and 2 x MK108 firing: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jZSETzqmFtU

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Pity Rouge Mulqvist did not reply after doing late post ambush and backstab http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/bigtears.gif

Anyway lol@7:44 on your video. No tell Valpo of me! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/halo.gif I didn't know what I was doing, and now I can't leave http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif


Edit: OMG, forgot that in Soviet-Finland Valpo is actually not needed because The People take care of things http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif

moilami1
11-24-2010, 08:41 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content"> but I'd like to know what would happen, if, say, a 20mm Minengeschloss round, hits a Yak or LaGG, in real life. There are enough videos showing what just a couple of ill-aimed hits could do to Hurricanes and Spitfires. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I can tell what happened to me in IL-2 with La-5FN "The Beast". Pooof! I exploded suddenly http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

I have great respect towards 20mm cannon. Precise care must be taken in order to avoid being hit by it (as it should be, I dare say, even though I am by far anything but an expert to say so).

K_Freddie
11-24-2010, 09:13 AM
moilami1 ... you're showing signs of instability, This is a bad quality for a combat pilot http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/blink.gif

M_Gunz
11-24-2010, 09:29 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Erkki_M:
8-min ban and loss of the plane and resources, Freddie.

I dont know about the best squadron, but best division is... http://www.adw.alkar.net/en/divisions/all/index.html http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

And yep agree with Gunz, 190's seat armor and structures might not be enough to stop even a Berezin 12,7 from point blank to 2-300m, let alone a cannon round AP, but I'd like to know what would happen, if, say, a 20mm Minengeschloss round, hits a Yak or LaGG, in real life. There are enough videos showing what just a couple of ill-aimed hits could do to Hurricanes and Spitfires. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

LaGG-3 has good solid structure, not like Yak-1 or Yak-7. LaGG-3 has engine armor capable of deflecting glancing hits and shrapnel. LaGG-3 is heavy beast like P-40.

moilami1
11-24-2010, 09:35 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by K_Freddie:
moilami1 ... you're showing signs of instability, This is a bad quality for a combat pilot http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/blink.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

o'rly

Try change perspective? Maybe I just don't have to lick yer stuff and try behave like Clint Eastwood in P-51 armed with .50 cals.

Besides this is a game. Do you get it? This is a game. Nothing much is needed to play it. Oh wait, why I did ask that, like it would get something that complex.

So, do you still have something "wise" to say? If you do, spit it all out. Or anyone, I could not care less of your smegmatic vomit and drooling, except I hate to read it when I have this badge. But consider yerself lucky I have it. Else I would ridiculate you to no end to the point your face would be red like redneck's posh cheeks when he sees something "offending".

And yeah, I am far from perfect. As is everyone. Including you, and don't think you can fool me in that even if you could fool morons at times. However I can tell you don't easily find me starting attacks on anyone's personality. Like you, your Excellence, and your moronic friends does.

But draw first blood and let me enjoy. I am not stupid enough to do it. I just enjoy doing it. Especially when I don't give a **** when I get banned from here http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/53.gif

RegRag1977
11-24-2010, 09:44 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by M_Gunz:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Erkki_M:
8-min ban and loss of the plane and resources, Freddie.

I dont know about the best squadron, but best division is... http://www.adw.alkar.net/en/divisions/all/index.html http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

And yep agree with Gunz, 190's seat armor and structures might not be enough to stop even a Berezin 12,7 from point blank to 2-300m, let alone a cannon round AP, but I'd like to know what would happen, if, say, a 20mm Minengeschloss round, hits a Yak or LaGG, in real life. There are enough videos showing what just a couple of ill-aimed hits could do to Hurricanes and Spitfires. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

LaGG-3 has good solid structure, not like Yak-1 or Yak-7. LaGG-3 has engine armor capable of deflecting glancing hits and shrapnel. LaGG-3 is heavy beast like P-40. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Are Yak1 or Yak7 structuraly very different from Yak9 and Yak3 or are they similar? I'm asking because in your post you seem to say that only Yak1 and Yak7 had fragile structures?
Or maybe did Yakovlev engineers improve construction and armour on the yak9 and yak3?

RegRag1977
11-24-2010, 09:53 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by moilami1:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">But anyway I cannot imagine them saying something childish and naive (to say the least) like "With dear and sweet yasha it is easy!" http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

lol owned

ofc u wont i am hardly not surprised http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/51.gif

May I help you good Sir? Pay attention to the grammatical tense. Note too She is Yasha. Dear and Sweet Yasha http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/heart.gif

And it would be appreciated if you good Sir would not begin to *define* what brave Russian pilots would say, especially regarding to Sweet and Dear Yasha. Remember you never were there with your boring dead serious attitude.

Besides, what the **** is wrong with you? Why so serious? No matter, think about it and try chew this:

http://i56.tinypic.com/1zx5bom.jpg

Now, bring it on sucker. I have my flamer ready http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/icon_twisted.gif BRING IT </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Sorry i did not notice you were such a spoilt baby child http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif ! Eh, go back to mommy and get youself some good politeness lessons!

moilami1
11-24-2010, 10:11 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by RegRag1977:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by moilami1:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">But anyway I cannot imagine them saying something childish and naive (to say the least) like "With dear and sweet yasha it is easy!" http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

lol owned

ofc u wont i am hardly not surprised http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/51.gif

May I help you good Sir? Pay attention to the grammatical tense. Note too She is Yasha. Dear and Sweet Yasha http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/heart.gif

And it would be appreciated if you good Sir would not begin to *define* what brave Russian pilots would say, especially regarding to Sweet and Dear Yasha. Remember you never were there with your boring dead serious attitude.

Besides, what the **** is wrong with you? Why so serious? No matter, think about it and try chew this:

http://i56.tinypic.com/1zx5bom.jpg

Now, bring it on sucker. I have my flamer ready http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/icon_twisted.gif BRING IT </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Sorry i did not notice you were such a spoilt baby child http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif ! Eh, go back to mommy and get youself some good politeness lessons! </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Mommy? Oi, we have now really Bad Bully Boy here (BBB)!

So... do you think there is something embarassing to go "back to mommy"? Like "Real Men" don't go to Mommy? Could you explain please, now you don't make any sense at all.

You speak first about being "childish and naive" and continue to speak like you would had been a Russian pilot in WWII when I spoke about *my* experiences in IL-2 the *game*. How naive is that? Could there be anything more naive (lol)?

Now you speak I should go back to Momma because I am "spoilt baby child" to get some "good politeness lessons" (lol).

I was wrong. You are actually a little bit funny. But only because you lose and FAIL so big time, which doesn't surprise me.

Next.

K_Freddie
11-24-2010, 10:42 AM
I arrest my case !!
http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/sleepzzz.gif

Bremspropeller
11-24-2010, 10:50 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">WWII piston-engined fighters were all based on much the same technology, and all designs were the result of compromise, both in terms of individual performance, and in terms of production capacity, logistics and the rest. The Fw 190 was a good example of getting the balance right during the mid-war period, but it wasn't unique, any more than the Spitfire, the P-51, or any other aircraft. It still needed a good pilot to make it anything more than an aluminium noise-making machine. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

QFT

Erkki_M
11-24-2010, 11:04 AM
M_Gunz, did you watch the vid? 1:20. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-tongue.gif

moilami, may I ask you what your HL callsign is?

moilami1
11-24-2010, 11:15 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Erkki_M:
M_Gunz, did you watch the vid? 1:20. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-tongue.gif

moilami, may I ask you what your HL callsign is? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

It is at the moment =69.GIAP=GYRGI &lt;-- Pay attention everyone and try come shoot me down now http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_cool.gif

Don't know how long though because of these negative associations to the squadron caused and other confusion. But all people doesn't take it gently when spat upon by forum veterans.

F-six
11-24-2010, 11:49 AM
Erkki will win any fight any given day.

He pwn's all (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OdCtzA0aNto)

RegRag1977
11-24-2010, 12:33 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by moilami1:

So... do you think there is something embarassing to go "back to mommy"? Like "Real Men" don't go to Mommy? Could you explain please, now you don't make any sense at all.
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hey that's your problem, not mine http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/88.gif

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">
You speak first about being "childish and naive" and continue to speak like you would had been a Russian pilot in WWII when I spoke about *my* experiences in IL-2 the *game*. How naive is that? Could there be anything more naive (lol)?

</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by RegRag1977:
<span class="ev_code_YELLOW">Only used in a game environment against untrained opposition may the Yak look "easy"</span>, during the war it wasn't like this: Russian pilots really had to be courageous, skilled, humble, lucky and altruists to survive, just like any other pilots you may rightly say.
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I reposted a part of my post so that we can check together which part of it you did not understand, you need help obviously... http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

Oh and if you don't appreciate "my" opinion on how i think Russian pilots considered the Yak, stop reading, tell me kindly, or better given your character, go to a shrink, he will help people like you to face their problems, otherwise you can still go to mommy, no shame in that, i promise, especially at your mental age http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/88.gif ...
http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif not my fault if you think that you would know better than me what a Russian pilot would have though about "sweet yesha is she"! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif

With such redneck manners like yours (no offense btw http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif) , no surprise you failed

moilami1
11-24-2010, 01:12 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by RegRag1977:
&lt;clip, all nonsense cut away&gt; </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Ok, enough of this. You try to deny that you first said my ingame experience, posed clearly as ingame experience, was "naive and childish, (to say the least)".

I spat straight back at you since I don't take kindly elitist forum veterans thinking they can behave in whatever way their impulsions and moods make them behave.

I apologised what I did, but I would do it again to anyone here if a similar scenario happened. You don't seem to understand what you did - or you don't want to admit and apologise. Well, it requires class to do so, I understand it well. No pun intended. And you don't need to apologise. I don't ask for that.

I just propose we ignore each other - at least I don't want to see people who spit at noobs - and thus end this tossing of **** around. Think about this not because of me, but because of some random noob you possibly would spit at again in the future. I hope you don't do it, and that is all what matters.

Sorry.

*ignored*

Romanator21
11-24-2010, 03:01 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content"> In game 190 might be well armoured and durable... But just look at the LaGG-3.

1:20, thats 4 x MG151/20 and 2 x MK108 firing: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jZSETzqmFtU

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

And yet, I managed to deprive one of its tail with just a 2 second burst from the nose machine guns on a Bf-109 E-4. I was out of cannon ammo.

This isn't a hyperbole, or a fib, it really happened.

I don't know how I did it, but I am sure never to do it again, as I've already tried numerous times to repeat that kill...I only wish I saved the track.

BTW Erkki, how do you practice your gunnery - it's really good!

VW-IceFire
11-24-2010, 03:15 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Erkki_M:
In game 190 might be well armoured and durable... But just look at the LaGG-3.

1:20, thats 4 x MG151/20 and 2 x MK108 firing: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jZSETzqmFtU

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Looks like some lag going on and the hits not being counted. A single burst of 20mm can cause a LaGG-3 to light on fire or loose a wing.

M_Gunz
11-24-2010, 04:23 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Erkki_M:
M_Gunz, did you watch the vid? 1:20. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-tongue.gif

moilami, may I ask you what your HL callsign is? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hey they're not tanks! Just much stronger built than contemporary Yaks. Like P-40 compared to Zero.

M_Gunz
11-24-2010, 04:35 PM
Russians who survived flying I-16's might have felt -very- good getting even a Yak-1.

I just find it funny that Russians would laugh about FW 190 vulnerability when so many of their planes were no better or less. Perhaps a crowd of IL2 pilots would cheer that at least something about the 190 wasn't better than their plane.

DKoor
11-24-2010, 04:54 PM
I think the only laughable thing here is talking about survivability in a WW2 fighter that gets under accurate fire.
I think that all WW2 pilots had little to laugh about when it comes to that issue.

Because for every of those "I survived being hit 200 times" there are 200 guys that did not.

Romanator21
11-24-2010, 05:02 PM
According to what I've heard, Oleg decided to reduce the size of hit-boxes for the pilots and crew because they were being killed far too often for players to enjoy the game http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

M_Gunz
11-24-2010, 05:15 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Romanator21:
According to what I've heard, Oleg decided to reduce the size of hit-boxes for the pilots and crew because they were being killed far too often for players to enjoy the game http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

+1

it's probably the single biggest hole in the DM yet it could have made IL2 a very short series as well.

Sillius_Sodus
11-24-2010, 05:20 PM
I remember back in the old days when the Lagg-3 was well nigh indestructible, I'd park my 109 behind it and watch the bullets and shells go right through the thing without effect.

Erkki_M
11-24-2010, 11:41 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Romanator21:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content"> In game 190 might be well armoured and durable... But just look at the LaGG-3.

1:20, thats 4 x MG151/20 and 2 x MK108 firing: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jZSETzqmFtU

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

And yet, I managed to deprive one of its tail with just a 2 second burst from the nose machine guns on a Bf-109 E-4. I was out of cannon ammo.

This isn't a hyperbole, or a fib, it really happened.

I don't know how I did it, but I am sure never to do it again, as I've already tried numerous times to repeat that kill...I only wish I saved the track.

BTW Erkki, how do you practice your gunnery - it's really good! </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

In the vid that has the LaGG-3 scene, its not me firing. I think I'm one of the P-40s, though. Not the one that crashes. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

My personal best of such situations was with Emil too, out of cannon, I shot just at the general direction of a Spitfire that was scissoring another 109, and cut its wing with 3-4 MG hits. Nobody had fired at that spit before, so it was completely intact.

Those LaGGs are still pretty much indestructible, try to shoot various LaGGs using planes that dont have cannons. Or have, but dont use them. Then, try P.11 too...

K_Freddie
11-25-2010, 12:44 AM
isn't the Lagg3 made of wood, similar to the Hurri wrt damage modelling - lots of holes and no fires.

M_Gunz
11-25-2010, 02:26 AM
Major structure is of Delta Wood, a composite of plastic resin and wood made with very high pressure and temperature. Somehow I don't think I would find it in Machinery's Handbook along with the wood, brick and other material properties.

TheGrunch
11-25-2010, 02:46 AM
I haven't played Il-2 for months and months, but after reading this thread I went up against four empty 109G-14 in a P-51C twice in QMB, and after making a right hash of the first go (still got 3, but I ran out of ammo and rammed the last one in frustration), I flamed the leader's engine on the head-on, irreperably damaged the #4 man's wing leaving him in a death-spiral on my second pass, flamed the #2 man as he tried to climb away from me on the same pass (he almost immediately exploded and jammed one of my guns at this point), and then spent aaaaaages fumbling around trying to get a shot on the last one before I flamed his engine with only 3 guns. I'd say the .50s are fine against aircraft with a reasonable DM. I set my convergence to 230m. I'm a rubbish pilot AND shot, BTW. Like many have concluded in this thread, it definitely depends on the DMs.

DKoor
11-25-2010, 04:15 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by TheGrunch:
Like many have concluded in this thread, it definitely depends on the DMs. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
True. It is only a pity that many of us haven't realized that back in the day when there were big forum fights here over it.

I think when SoW hits the shelves a lot of people will be surprised with the gun effect in that game, especially when they empty that "weak" 7,62 at close range at enemy aircraft, with all that added & improved/fine tuned boxes.
I wont be too surprised if I see punctured tires, oxygen bottles damage etc. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif .

It all really boils down to the DM's... much more so than the "gun power"... if those .50s are more powerful they'd probably often dewing E/A which is, to put it mildly, far too optimistic. Trouble is that they hit, sometimes even vulnerable area, but DM ain't ticked to produce damage it should.

Yesterday I flew some Ju-87 sortie, Yak got behind me, and in wild maneuvers I hit his canopy at least three times (I saw that yellow "ping" flashes on his canopy).
Also I pumped his nose a lot with those 7,62s... all that was on 200m or less. He was still attacking, no smoke pouring from his aircraft, visible only fuel leak.
If they guy happened to fly a 109, first accurate salvo from that range would probably set him on fire... (although AFAIK all aircraft are resistant to canopy damage unless you directly hit a pilot).
So my conclusion is quite clear. It ain't gun, it's DM.

Friendly_flyer
11-25-2010, 05:13 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Romanator21:
Yes, HMG are not as great as explosive cannon shells when it comes down to our online DF world. Why then were they such "war winners" historically? Because they were relatively cheap and easy to produce in enormous quantities, were reliable, had more experienced pilots behind them, and were mounted on planes that could go deeper into enemy territory </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

The .50ies was not great guns for planes. Not that they were bad designs or anything, but they were generally recognised as underpowered for fighter planes by the time the US entered the war. From a purely "weight vs destructive power" POW, a couple of 20 mm canons is better than a battery of M2's.

The reason the US still stuck to the M2 as standard armament was that their version of the Hispano ran into mechanical difficulty and never reached satisfactory reliability during the war. Not until the M24 with electrical priming did the American Hispano become reliable enough, but by that time the war was over.

Some naval planes needed cannons so badly the Navy ignored the reliability issue. This was a purely American problem though, the British never had problems with their Hispanos after the Mk.II-model. Had the USAF had it their way, the Mustang would have had the same armament as the Tempest (four short barreled Mk.Vs), which would have increased the weight slightly, or the the Spitfire armament, which would have been slightly lighter then the 6 M2s of the Mustang D.

RegRag1977
11-25-2010, 05:34 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by DKoor:
I think the only laughable thing here is talking about survivability in a WW2 fighter that gets under accurate fire.
I think that all WW2 pilots had little to laugh about when it comes to that issue.

Because for every of those "I survived being hit 200 times" there are 200 guys that did not. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I completely agree and i would also add that survivability if far too optimistic in crash landing situations: you just never die when your aircraft flips over or even when its rolling on the ground. The only aircraft in which i happened to die on landing was Ju88 which i didn't know how to fly correctly at the time. I liked to pay the price for this even if i lost my points.

Good thing in that "life" modelling: pilots can keep their so important online points, offline campaign players don't have to refly the whole mission;

Bad thing: pilots give less priority to "basic" fundamental maneuvers like landing or take off, and there's a good part off them that never train to master these. And for those who master them, there's no tension or stress: they know the only risk is to ruin the plane.

Pity that these kind of skill cannot be rewarded...As it is now it is something like learning to fight before learning to walk, and learning to walk before learning to crawl.

TheGrunch
11-25-2010, 09:26 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by RegRag1977:
Bad thing: pilots give less priority to "basic" fundamental maneuvers like landing or take off, and there's a good part off them that never train to master these. And for those who master them, there's no tension or stress: they know the only risk is to ruin the plane.

Pity that these kind of skill cannot be rewarded...As it is now it is something like learning to fight before learning to walk, and learning to walk before learning to crawl. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
It's a pity, because one of the most satisfying things in this game is when you nail a carrier landing, especially on the tiny escort carriers. Zeuscat's campaign doesn't sound fun, but it damn well is, even for someone who's had this game since he was a kid and long since learned how to land and take off without making a mess.

M_Gunz
11-25-2010, 01:18 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by DKoor:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by TheGrunch:
Like many have concluded in this thread, it definitely depends on the DMs. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
True. It is only a pity that many of us haven't realized that back in the day when there were big forum fights here over it. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Do you remember the great 'Mk108 is porked' battles where screenshot after screenshot was shown always with the 323 and always the base being hit with little result? And then Oleg posted how the base of that one had been beefed up to keep it from collapsing when it landed?

Yes the 50 cal battles were much bigger but also a year or so later IIRC. And the 151/20 battles that went on for over two years and even ended happy for most of us; problem was not the gun or the DM's but the wrong ammo belting!

There were two schools. One would find something to demonstrate and insist that proved a general, blanket, point. And the other would find counter examples and say the point was not general. School One was always pushing for something to be improved and didn't care for anything that showed otherwise. Hey, wait, I shouldn't say 'was' because they are still around today!

Wildnoob
11-25-2010, 07:57 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Erkki_M:
Those LaGGs are still pretty much indestructible, try to shoot various LaGGs using planes that dont have cannons. Or have, but dont use them. Then, try P.11 too... </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

At least I remember to never have managed to punch the radiator of the LaGG-3 with lmg armed fighters.