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View Full Version : Interesting Observation: Spit vs 109 on WarClouds



FatBoyHK
03-16-2005, 09:49 AM
it is not easy spotting plane at high alt, but you can always get some hint by looking for tracers instead. That is what I do.

If I see enemy tracer, obviously I will try to dive down and help. If I see friendly tracer, usually I will stay at alt and provide top cover. The only exception is when I see tracers from Spitfire. Very Often, I mean VERY OFTEN, even before I arrive the scene, red and orange tracers are gone, and are being replaced by blue and yellow tracers -- That 109 has already turned the table...

I wonder, is it really that easy to for a 109 pilot to force a reversal against a spit?? I am confused, because the spit are the most whined plane we have (bar those VVS plane of course), it should be uber, at least for average players. But what I withnessed contradict with that. And the stats futther proved that the spits are indeed losing against 109s.

If I am on a 109, what is my best option when a spit is on my six? If I am on a Spit, what should I keep in mind if I don't want to be embarrested?

FatBoyHK
03-16-2005, 09:49 AM
it is not easy spotting plane at high alt, but you can always get some hint by looking for tracers instead. That is what I do.

If I see enemy tracer, obviously I will try to dive down and help. If I see friendly tracer, usually I will stay at alt and provide top cover. The only exception is when I see tracers from Spitfire. Very Often, I mean VERY OFTEN, even before I arrive the scene, red and orange tracers are gone, and are being replaced by blue and yellow tracers -- That 109 has already turned the table...

I wonder, is it really that easy to for a 109 pilot to force a reversal against a spit?? I am confused, because the spit are the most whined plane we have (bar those VVS plane of course), it should be uber, at least for average players. But what I withnessed contradict with that. And the stats futther proved that the spits are indeed losing against 109s.

If I am on a 109, what is my best option when a spit is on my six? If I am on a Spit, what should I keep in mind if I don't want to be embarrested?

MEGILE
03-16-2005, 09:56 AM
The Spifire probably outturned and shot down the BF-109, and was then pounced on by 5 of his blue buddies http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

FatBoyHK
03-16-2005, 09:59 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Megile:
The Spifire probably outturned and shot down the BF-109, and was then pounced on by 5 of his blue buddies http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

No, they are 1vs1 dogfights

HayateAce
03-16-2005, 10:02 AM
You see this because the 109 is improperly modeled.

The main problems are that the late 109s do not stall properly and when they chop power it is instantaneous. To ac such as the P51 and the Spit driver caught unawares, it looks like the 109 literally goes into reverse. That is the reversal you are seeing.

Once they chop power, the overdone horsepower and acceleration allow them to immediately go over to the offensive and begin pulling off some very UFO like moves.

Watch a 109 go into a purposeful stall at 50 meters, insta-recover and then immediately re-enter the fight.

The 109 FM is actually just kind of silly and needs to be tweaked.

MEGILE
03-16-2005, 10:06 AM
http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

To answer the original question.. who knows what the Spitfire pilot did wrong.
The SpitfireIX can beat late war BF-109s in a sustained turn fight... perhaps the 109 forced the Spitfire out infront for a MK-108 Snapshot.
It happens... regardless of planes abilities, pilots can make mistakes and/or not use the full potential of their planes.

Mad_Moses
03-16-2005, 10:25 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by FatBoyHK:
it is not easy spotting plane at high alt, but you can always get some hint by looking for tracers instead. That is what I do.

If I see enemy tracer, obviously I will try to dive down and help. If I see friendly tracer, usually I will stay at alt and provide top cover. The only exception is when I see tracers from Spitfire. Very Often, I mean VERY OFTEN, even before I arrive the scene, red and orange tracers are gone, and are being replaced by blue and yellow tracers -- That 109 has already turned the table...

I wonder, is it really that easy to for a 109 pilot to force a reversal against a spit?? I am confused, because the spit are the most whined plane we have (bar those VVS plane of course), it should be uber, at least for average players. But what I withnessed contradict with that. And the stats futther proved that the spits are indeed losing against 109s.

If I am on a 109, what is my best option when a spit is on my six? If I am on a Spit, what should I keep in mind if I don't want to be embarrested? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

It all depends on the pilot and their tactics.

Spit 8 & 9 have a high speed turn advantage over any of the 109s. Thus Spit pilots can dictate the battle as long as they maintain their energy. Once they make that greedy mistake to slow down on the deck with a 109 they have given their advantage away.

A good 109G6 or 10 pilot can turn equally roll better, accelerate faster, and climb better once the speed has reduced down under 300Kph close to the deck.

The Spit 5 that is in War Clouds is a different story. That plane should be able to out turn every thing with a good pilot and doesn't burn energy hardly at all but it is slow in a straight line. A 109G2 would be a good match for it in a slow turn fight but not the later model 109s.

When I am in a P-51 and I see a Spit pilot doing loop-d-loops on the deck with a 109 I don't bother to drop in because that Spit pilot won't level off long enough for anyone to clear his six anyway.

It's all tactics... speed is the most important component in aerial combat. The guys who fly slow and low just pray on the other dummies who fly slow and low. The pilots who fly high and fast pray on all of them.

MM

Kandiru-Aku
03-16-2005, 11:01 AM
Moses your quote...

"It's all tactics... speed is the most important component in aerial combat. The guys who fly slow and low just pray on the other dummies who fly slow and low. The pilots who fly high and fast pray on all of them"

...truly belongs on the wall across of the entrance of military aviation academy.

How true indeed. That sentence says it all.

Bob

WOLFMondo
03-16-2005, 11:13 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by FatBoyHK:
I am confused, because the spit are the most whined plane we have (bar those VVS plane of course), it should be uber, at least for average players. But what I withnessed contradict with that. And the stats futther proved that the spits are indeed losing against 109s. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Maybe BF109 flyers are more inclined to whine than Spitflyers?

MEGILE
03-16-2005, 11:17 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by WOLFMondo:


Maybe BF109 flyers are more inclined to whine than Spitflyers? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
And why do you believe they would be Mondo? http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

faustnik
03-16-2005, 11:31 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by WOLFMondo:


Maybe BF109 flyers are more inclined to whine than Spitflyers? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

From what I've seen, both sides are pretty good at it.

WOLFMondo
03-16-2005, 11:35 AM
To be blunt the 109 guys win the whining by a large degree. The Spitwhiners aren't even playing in the same league.

faustnik
03-16-2005, 11:42 AM
Neither group has much to whine about.

WOLFMondo
03-16-2005, 11:44 AM
Now that I can agree on!http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Chivas
03-16-2005, 11:57 AM
I used to kill a Spit pilot on a regular bases in my 109, but in the past month his flying ability has improved nicely. Now I only occasionally kill him with a lucky deflection shot. It's all about the pilot.
But then again when I get lucky and shoot down his m8's well flown P51 he'll soon tell me I'm a second rate pilot in a crutch plane. LMFAO I miss the old days when guys would Salute each other after a fight. Now you get poor loser trash talk.

p1ngu666
03-16-2005, 12:53 PM
indeed faus http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

109s on warclouds, u wont find a g6 plain. g6as u will find, k4, g10 14 and g2.

all have adavantages over spits, mw50 can outclimb and out speed and accelorate spits

GUARD4000
03-16-2005, 02:08 PM
I am very confused to see that there are many people using spit on WC.I mean it is ok if people use spit because they love it.But if they are using it because they think it is good,they are wrong.They dont really have much chance against those late german ACs below 6000m.They cant catch anything and cant outrun anything.In most cases I saw they were just trying not to be victims of MK108s.

Fish6891
03-16-2005, 02:10 PM
109 is the better dogfighter in my opinion, wont get into details but there were some discussions done here http://forums.ubi.com/eve/forums?a=tpc&s=400102&f=23110283&m=8141085582

As for whining......yes there is A LOT of Spit whining on blue side, mostly from 109 pilots, red side whines like mad too but its not all about 1 A/C, they complain about all the blue A/C in general being uber, and especially complain about 108s.

Whining is silly, take up ur choice airplane and shoot ppl down(or get shot down and learn something), simple.

Hydra444
03-16-2005, 07:00 PM
I have never had any troubles shooting 109's down with a Spit...You all can say what you want about the 109,its no better or worse than any other plane,sheesh...

HellToupee
03-16-2005, 07:28 PM
the problem is when going fast is that a 109 can chop engine and turn, unless you shoot him down right away you will overshoot the spit has no way of slowing down quickly enough, if you try and pull up vertical to drop ur speed he can go full throttle and bring his nose on to you, or his 10 buddies will get you, if you overshoot and try to run he will catch you right away as if he never slowed down.

p1ngu666
03-16-2005, 09:20 PM
mw50 109s are better than spit 8 and 9

imo, a late 109 vs spit, 109 should win

190 vs spit, now that can go either way

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif

if oleg modeled 109 right, it would be a different airplane entirely...

and yes, mk108 is bloody annoying

mg151 maybe weak, but it does work... atleast for me http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

Waldo.Pepper
03-16-2005, 10:34 PM
I am surprised that no one mentions the view from the 109 yet.

Fish6891
03-16-2005, 10:41 PM
P1ngu underestimates the 190 http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/10.gif

Jagdklinger
03-16-2005, 11:23 PM
Another 109 thread! We're running hot at the moment... ..never let it said 109s kept a low profile... http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Naturally, the words 'uber' and 'undermodelled' pop up in the threads regularly. The only useful thing I learned was how how people hate the 109 chopping throttle on them.... thus....

WHAT I WANT FOR X-MAS: A "Bf109 Guide" with tactical and engine management wisdom such as Fish and Zen distribute for those ugly 190s (I almost said 'ugly 190 people' http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif but everyone knows the beautiful people fly Messerschmitts anyway... http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/mockface.gif

Von_Rat
03-16-2005, 11:32 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>
if oleg modeled 109 right, it would be a different airplane entirely...

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

same could be said of spit


speaking of whining, im see the spit flyers are trying to catchup with 109 whiners, in this very thread.

as far as 109s chopping throttle, it slows down to fast because its drag is overmodelled. if its drag is cut it'll retain e better. make up your minds you can't have it both ways.

i for one wouldn't mind better e retaintion.

LeadSpitter_
03-16-2005, 11:41 PM
The science channel did a detailed study at harvard university and discovered weekly sourkraut consumtion causes excessive whining.

S.taibanzai
03-16-2005, 11:45 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by HayateAce:
You see this because the 109 is improperly modeled.

The main problems are that the late 109s do not stall properly and when they chop power it is instantaneous. To ac such as the P51 and the Spit driver caught unawares, it looks like the 109 literally goes into reverse. That is the reversal you are seeing.

Once they chop power, the overdone horsepower and acceleration allow them to immediately go over to the offensive and begin pulling off some very UFO like moves.

Watch a 109 go into a purposeful stall at 50 meters, insta-recover and then immediately re-enter the fight.

The 109 FM is actually just kind of silly and needs to be tweaked. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


The only thing here that is silly is you

p1ngu666
03-16-2005, 11:52 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Von_Rat:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>
if oleg modeled 109 right, it would be a different airplane entirely...

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

same could be said of spit


speaking of whining, im see the spit flyers are trying to catchup with 109 whiners, in this very thread.

as far as 109s chopping throttle, it slows down to fast because its drag is overmodelled. if its drag is cut it'll retain e better. make up your minds you can't have it both ways.

i for one wouldn't mind better e retaintion. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

think spit's about right, from what ive read onit and tests. whatever u did it would still have the same chacter, btw ive had spits sit on my 6 when ive used airbrake on p38, (arcade server, sue me :P )

takin k4 for a "fixing"
1, climb rate would reduce with alt (it doesnt till 5k, according to il2)
2, stall speed uped
3 alirons stiffen up with speed
4 better elivator at alt, think zero has same problem, and others, p38j up high is odd too, either stall or compressability last time i flew up high
5torque http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif!. we could take that off the p38 fm http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-sad.gif
6 20mm cannon as default or option on all late 109's. k4 had mk108 standard, dunno if it got 20mm.
7 worse ground and low speed handling, ground like il2 perhaps...
8 reduce the toughness a wee bit

so it would be a different plane, but no less potent to a good pilot http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

Fehler
03-17-2005, 12:04 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by LeadSpitter_:
The science channel did a detailed study at harvard university and discovered weekly sourkraut consumtion causes excessive whining. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

And eating lead paint chips makes you dumb...

Spit them out now!

Hmm... lead spit... Hmmmm....

Von_Rat
03-17-2005, 12:08 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by p1ngu666:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Von_Rat:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>
if oleg modeled 109 right, it would be a different airplane entirely...

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

same could be said of spit


speaking of whining, im see the spit flyers are trying to catchup with 109 whiners, in this very thread.

as far as 109s chopping throttle, it slows down to fast because its drag is overmodelled. if its drag is cut it'll retain e better. make up your minds you can't have it both ways.

i for one wouldn't mind better e retaintion. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

think spit's about right, from what ive read onit and tests. whatever u did it would still have the same chacter, btw ive had spits sit on my 6 when ive used airbrake on p38, (arcade server, sue me :P )

takin k4 for a "fixing"
1, climb rate would reduce with alt (it doesnt till 5k, according to il2)
2, stall speed uped
3 alirons stiffen up with speed
4 better elivator at alt, think zero has same problem, and others, p38j up high is odd too, either stall or compressability last time i flew up high
5torque http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif!. we could take that off the p38 fm http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-sad.gif
6 20mm cannon as default or option on all late 109's. k4 had mk108 standard, dunno if it got 20mm.
7 worse ground and low speed handling, ground like il2 perhaps...
8 reduce the toughness a wee bit

so it would be a different plane, but no less potent to a good pilot http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

climbs are wrong for many planes, including spit at hi alt, according to chart you posted in other thread, that was you wasn't it.

i haven't teasted myself but others claim stall speeds are wrong in many other planes also. not just k4

i agree on point 4. and if point 4 is corrected i don't care about point 7. i don't fly k4 low slow.

point 6 is fine, just fix 20mm.
point 8 ALL PLANES ARE WAY TO TOUGH. except p47 and maybe fw.

Hristos
03-17-2005, 12:11 AM
IMHO

Majority of Spit pilots are easy-route people.

Here and there you meet a smart Spit pilot or even an ace able to take down multiple attackers. However, not all pilots are aces.

They want a plane to hop in and rack up kills with little effort. Yes, harsh from my side, but you can witness that every day in HL.

Such people don't like to bother with climb, CEM, or even tactics. Do you expect such people to come here and bother with posting on UBB ?

Spit in this game is not uber IMHO. Just yesterday I managed to constantly stay on one in my Fw 190A-9. Why ? Because the pilot was making mistakes all the time. The pilot allowed me to come on his six, then dove until very fast and pulled up until blackout. That's a 190's game, not Spit's ! Then he flatturned, but still at speeds too high. My 190 followed without a problem.

Smart Spit pilot would use low speed maneuvering, climb and acceleration advantage against a 190 on his six instead.

If Spit was a real uber plane you could be making mistakes and still stay on top of another plane. Not so.

109 is flown by great variety of people. In fact, probably the greatest. Some of them like challenge, some think it would be an instant Hartmann maker. Some of them come here to whine.

Really, I haven't seen any reason for whining with this version of the game, apart from current state of MG151/20 loadouts. Well, maybe front view on 190, but we learned to live with it.

As for original question. I don't think 109 has some magic reversal trick. I believe Spit was roped. Usually Spits like to fire in hope of a lucky shot in such situations, especially when near stall. Some 109 pilots use it as a signal Spit is about to stall and exactly then they dive down. So now you see blue tracers of a 109 who just performed a rope-a-dope. IMHO

p1ngu666
03-17-2005, 12:23 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Von_Rat:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by p1ngu666:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Von_Rat:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>
if oleg modeled 109 right, it would be a different airplane entirely...

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

same could be said of spit


speaking of whining, im see the spit flyers are trying to catchup with 109 whiners, in this very thread.

as far as 109s chopping throttle, it slows down to fast because its drag is overmodelled. if its drag is cut it'll retain e better. make up your minds you can't have it both ways.

i for one wouldn't mind better e retaintion. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

think spit's about right, from what ive read onit and tests. whatever u did it would still have the same chacter, btw ive had spits sit on my 6 when ive used airbrake on p38, (arcade server, sue me :P )

takin k4 for a "fixing"
1, climb rate would reduce with alt (it doesnt till 5k, according to il2)
2, stall speed uped
3 alirons stiffen up with speed
4 better elivator at alt, think zero has same problem, and others, p38j up high is odd too, either stall or compressability last time i flew up high
5torque http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif!. we could take that off the p38 fm http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-sad.gif
6 20mm cannon as default or option on all late 109's. k4 had mk108 standard, dunno if it got 20mm.
7 worse ground and low speed handling, ground like il2 perhaps...
8 reduce the toughness a wee bit

so it would be a different plane, but no less potent to a good pilot http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

climbs are wrong for many planes, including spit at hi alt, according to chart you posted in other thread, that was you wasn't it.

i haven't teasted myself but others claim stall speeds are wrong in many other planes also. not just k4

i agree on point 4. and if point 4 is corrected i don't care about point 7. i don't fly k4 low slow.

point 6 is fine, just fix 20mm.
point 8 ALL PLANES ARE WAY TO TOUGH. except p47 and maybe fw. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

yep, that was me http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif
iirec the k4 climbs 50% better than the real thing at 5000metres, its too good to some degree at most alts by various amounts.

spit may well climb too well up high, no problems with that being fixed

7, at some point u will haveto land, or takeoff....

stall speeds are mostly right i think for most planes, and k4 is more controlable in stall than f4 series aswell...

i suggest u try the il2 any model, out on the ground, taxing around, its the only plane that u can ground loop...

a k4 should be like a beast, very potent, but it can bite back...
now, its very potent, but will hardly bite back

HayateAce
03-17-2005, 12:36 AM
http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/10.gif

http://www.qtm.net/~geibdan/newse/may/nazi2.jpg

Von_Rat
03-17-2005, 12:45 AM
pingu666, where'd you get the 50% better at 5,000m. if its from il2 compare you better test yourself. i haven't tested k4 climb at alt, but i have tested spits. il2 compare is very wrong when it comes to spits hi alt climb. it says it outclimbs k4 above 6,000m by alot. the in game spit climbs to good at alt, but nowhere near as much as il2 compare says. in short il2 compare is wrong about spits climb, i bet its wrong about k4.

there's somthing wrong with f4s stall. its been discussed before. the k4 handles worse low speed and stalls easier than the g series, those are the one's it should be compared to.

MOH_MADMAN
03-17-2005, 01:11 AM
LOL Magile,

but seriously

MAD MOSES hit on the nail on the head. Most sober post ive ever seen, ill tip one to that!

antifreeze
03-17-2005, 01:20 AM
I agree with everyone who has said that most spit pilots fly too fast. It's so funny on Teamspeak when you hear spit pilots constantly saying '**** it, I've blacked-out again', as if it is the aircraft's fault! If trying to turn inside another aircraft, the spit should generally be flown at 300-330kmph I think. A lot of the problems are caused by pilots merging into a horizontal turn fight at 450kmph. Not only will that increase the turn-circle, pilots will blackout easily; having to fly straight after the first merge to counter a blackout means the enemy will be on your six in about fifteen seconds. Is that the 'reversal' you're seeing?
In a tight turn fight, spit throttle needs to be low... around 50-60% I think, throttling up when the fight goes more vertical. This is different from alot of other allied planes, where you can happily turn fight at 80-100% throttle.
That's my opinion, anyway.

tigertalon
03-17-2005, 01:24 AM
Hi all

Yesterday evening I was flying SpitMkIXHF and had a few matchups with a guy in Bf109K4. We had some 2 or 3 fights lasting for at least 15 minutes (till one of us ran out of fuel), we climbed all the way up to 8000 meters...

He was fater and faster climbing, I had better energy retention and turning, and we both used our advantages so well, neither of us could gain decisive advantage.

SpitIXHF vs K4 is a pretty close match IMO.

tigertalon
03-17-2005, 01:27 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Von_Rat:
point 8 ALL PLANES ARE WAY TO TOUGH. except p47 and maybe fw. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

One of the statements I agree most regarding Il2. My words exactly.

Abbuzze
03-17-2005, 01:32 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Fish6891:
P1ngu underestimates the 190 http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/10.gif <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

If you fly in a 1vs1 the 190 is good to survive and leave the battle but to win it...

Best combination is a 109 and a 190 the BF slows the enemy down and the 190 kill it... mostly even if the 109 is 150m behind the enemys 6oc http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif That why I like 190 so much they are never there when you need them, or they need to long but if you nearly got the guy, be sure the 190 will be there http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif - That why I love the 190 Pilots! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif


For the original threadtheme, there are no real 43 or early 44 server here! A clean G6 early or late will have a real hard time.

What we see here is a fight with "plane A" with more HP, better powerload vs "plane B" with a better wingload.

So the question for all "109 is to good" whiners, if the fight goes to low altitude, both planes eat up thair energy, and one of this guys decide to go out of the turning fight into a low level energyfight... at which plane would you bet your money??? A or B??


I would love to see a realistic server with G6 late vs IX... that would divide boys of men!

ploughman
03-17-2005, 01:33 AM
I'd like to see a 25 lb boosted Spit IX for '44. It'd be a bit more competitive then.

An increase of about 950 ft/min in rate of climb and about 30 mph in all-out level speed is achieved by the increase of boost from +18 lb/sq.in. to +25 lb/sq.in. Fuel consumption increases by 24% but when was the last time anyone ran out of fuel?

WOLFMondo
03-17-2005, 01:44 AM
I run out of fuel...regularly, even on the P47 at 75%. Not run out of fuel in the P38 but regularly return to base in FW190's due to low fuel.

Hetzer_II
03-17-2005, 01:47 AM
Ohh no not another "uber 109"-"spitwhining" thread!!!

Use your IX correct and you will eat 109 and 190 for brackfast.. just use energyfighting instead of "im trying to turn him to death"....

Funny thing is: Its almost the same when blue sides flying a6 and g6.... red almost loose everytime.... but shure most people will have another explenation for this...

Maybe earth gravity is overdone for all Spits and the rest of red planes? I mean it would be a good reason why the 109 can climb that fast....

KGr.HH-Sunburst
03-17-2005, 02:20 AM
Hetzer its clear you have never flown a single red plane in an online combat sortie

If anything, the 109 is the most uber and easiest plane to fly on the west front maps be sure

sure spit is a user friendly plane but its to slow to be uber as it cannot disengage from the hordes of 109s flying and blasting around

Why else is the 109 the most flown plane on servers like GG and WC?
it got climb advantage over any plane except La7
(which we never see anyways)
turns with ALL planes except the bi planes and a few russian crates
it got the speed to disengage from most planes
and can dive with almost all planes
G6 and on got 1 hit 1 kill cannon
Bf109+MW50+Mk108, what else do you need to get a fully pimped clown wagon?

honestly ive been playing this game for 3+ years 2 of them flying LW planes,
but now i decided to discover the "otherside" again a dozen patches later
Im shocked at how much harder it is to fly red planes now even La5s dont turn with 109s
but the real problem is now that on FD serves like GG everybody MUST fly Blue and mostly 109s
i remember the days it was the other way around http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif
red gets outnumbered 2-3 to 1 90% of the time on west and eastfront maps
because people tend to fly the side with the easiest planes available...now go figure which one that is http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

WOLFMondo
03-17-2005, 02:29 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Von_Rat:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>
if oleg modeled 109 right, it would be a different airplane entirely...

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

same could be said of spit
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

If they Spitfire was modelled the way you portray it, it wouldn't be any Spitfire that ever flew. I've not seen anyone prove it could not do anything it can't do in FB.

It was a great plane, one of the greatest planes ever built, why is it so hard for some people to belive that?

Hetzer_II
03-17-2005, 02:48 AM
I just only fly 190 exclusively...
And yes, there are times when i switsch to red when they are outnumbered.... I didnt see much difference in the "hardness" to fly on red or blue....

Every noob flying blue or red planes will loose, everyone who knows his advantages and disadvantages will have a good time... even in a IX.

The only disadvantage the current IX has is its Speed, that will change if we get 21boost on IX or XIV... And most is simply up to the mission designer... if red flies IX"43" than we should get 109g6.. simple.. why the hell anyone call another aircraft uber because the missiondesign is porqued...

For example: If you want to have your historical advantages over 109´s with your p51... just stay high. Its not the problem of the aircraft performance that most fights are at little altitude... its also a problem of missiondesign. If Oleg would give us greater Maps or allow us to add AI driven bombers even in dogfight maps and to start already altitude... yes that would be more historical...

And to the 108... it is like it should.. simply as is.. Give us normal "historical" 151 and 108 will not be used that much anymore... But than the whine will start:"Stop that uber 151.." So were starting to fly in a circuit....

Greets

LeadSpitter_
03-17-2005, 02:49 AM
good one jv44_Feltcher

AndyHigh
03-17-2005, 02:56 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by KGr.HH-Sunburst:
If anything, the 109 is the most uber and easiest plane to fly on the west front maps be sure
sure spit is a user friendly plane but its to slow to be uber as it cannot disengage from the hordes of 109s flying and blasting around
Why else is the 109 the most flown plane on servers like GG and WC?
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Just checked WC-WF stats out of curiosity (never flown there). Overall K/D ratio of 109 is below one (G2, K4) or just over one (the rest). Spit seem to fare better against 109 than other way around, with K/D way over 1 in most of the cases (fe. Mk VIIIClp vs. G2/K4: 1.8/1.67). How do you guys make conclusion that 109 is uber and spit under modelled if thats not verified even by stats?

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>
honestly ive been playing this game for 3+ years 2 of them flying LW planes,
but now i decided to discover the "otherside" again a dozen patches later
Im shocked at how much harder it is to fly red planes now even La5s dont turn with 109s
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

That's sounds just natural, you've flown same planes over and over again and learned their tricks and flying style. Now you jump to unfamiliar planes -&gt; kaboom!

And the trick for slow speed turning Bf-109 in RL was to use slats, which greatly improved its turning. I've read that allied test pilots didn't quite get it and made wrong conclusion that 109 couldn't turn. Seems to work in game too.

In the recent "Messerschmitt 109 - myths, facts" article there's a anonymous quote which isn't translated:
"In turning fight you first pull a bit too tightly, so that slats will open, after that you push more throttle and pull tightly with slats open. That's how tight turn is achieved (tighter than Spit). English test pilots didn't knew the tricks and made conclusion that 109 was more awkward than Spit."

WOLFMondo
03-17-2005, 02:57 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Hetzer_II:
Its not the problem of the aircraft performance that most fights are at little altitude... its also a problem of missiondesign. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Since DF servers only really cater for ground pounding then I don't see this problem with fights at lower altitudes. High altitude bomber escort just made up a part of the overall airwar, some people seem to forget that close air support made up a real bulk of the fighting late war in the western front. How did the P47 rack up so many ground kills if it wasn't flying at low and medium altitude, they sure were not flying at 30,000ft when train busting.

AAA_Mohican
03-17-2005, 03:08 AM
Hummmm:

No way, gents. I kill 30% more planes when I fly Spit, than in 109, and my usual plane is the 109, not the spit.....

Every 109 pilot I know, kills much more with spit. This is a numeric fact, not words.

I remember a discussion in the virtual western front forum, exactly like this. One red squad, decided then to fly blue also, to demonstrate the blue boys they were right! And, could you imagine what happened? Their kill numbers drop dramatically when flying blue planes. This is another numerical fact.

For those who flew both sides in vwf(ocasionally red in my case), we knew the answer better and before that test. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/59.gif We knew for sure tha our numbers flying red (not only spits) were better.

From my point of view, depending the plane I fight against, I prefer to fly one or another plane. To fight against spit I prefer much more the Fw190. To fight against P51, I prefer the 109.

The same feeling I have when I fly spits and P51. When flying spit, I don´t like to find 190, and when I,m in a P51, I love to find them.

And please, for those who talk about acceleration, turns ratios, top speed, etc, test it offline, like I´ve done.The same pilot with diferent planes. Test and then take notes, and compare wihout any prejudice, and I,m sure you will get impressed.

ploughman
03-17-2005, 03:27 AM
Well ok Mondo, so you run out of fuel. But still a 25 lb boosted Spit with a 30mph speed increase and a 950 ft/min rate of climb increase would be nice.

Jagdklinger
03-17-2005, 03:31 AM
I must admit I am much more effective in a Spit IX than my normal G-10/K-4 ride: not unusual to take on 4:1 odds vs 109G10s/190A8s offline and down them all (ammo permitting); all my best multi-kill offline missions were in a IX. As a 'top-gun' style dogfighter there isn't much to better it...

I think also the Merlin is easier to judge revs etc - with P51 I reckon the Spit is the purest, nicest plane to just 'fly' in IL-2.

Fehler
03-17-2005, 03:52 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by LeadSpitter_:
good one jv44_Feltcher <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hehe, I thought you would like it M8! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Werre_Fsck
03-17-2005, 04:12 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>
sure spit is a user friendly plane but its to slow to be uber <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

This is my feeling when in 190 or 109... but a question: why is it that in Corsair which should be fast and dive well the spit outdives, climbs and runs the Corsair? Am I doing something terribly wrong?

WOLFMondo
03-17-2005, 04:25 AM
You saying the 190 is slow?!?!?!?

Does the Spit outrun the corsair? Using mix, correct supercharger use and WEP the Corsair is very fast. It probably should out climb the Corsair at its optimum rate of climb and in a dive it should fall behind a Corsair then catch up.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Ploughman:
Well ok Mondo, so you run out of fuel. But still a 25 lb boosted Spit with a 30mph speed increase and a 950 ft/min rate of climb increase would be nice. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

No arguments from me there, I'd love to see it.

JG54_Arnie
03-17-2005, 04:36 AM
Interesting, on GG, comparing the stats between the 109 and Spits shows that the 109 has a higher k/d ratio on average, about 1.5 where the spit is around 1-1.2.
When flying on GG it always amazes me how way too many people join blue, hop into their 109 with 108's and blast away like there is no tomorrow. So the situation when flying red is that as soon as you are behind a 109 or perhaps 190, small chance, and you open fire, within one minute, you have no less then 3-10 109's on your tail blasting away, killing friendly, enemy all in one go.. so funny. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif
Then when an early PF mission is loaded everybody hops into a spitfire or something red and only few individuals fly the early jap planes against another majority. Me thinks we really need an autobalance for teams in dogfight maps!

WOLFMondo
03-17-2005, 05:12 AM
Autobalance is definatly needed. However I feel some die hard red or blue only guys will be crying over this.

JG54_Arnie
03-17-2005, 05:27 AM
Well, thats their problem then. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif I think everybody should actually fly some different planes so now and then. Those that really dont want to can go find another server, good riddance if you ask me. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

MEGILE
03-17-2005, 06:35 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by KGr.HH-Sunburst:

Bf109+MW50+Mk108, what else do you need to get a fully pimped clown wagon?
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif That is pretty amusing Sunburst.

The Spitfire is good... if you turn with it and get slapped, that's your problem.


http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/10.gif The lost art of Zoom and Boom.

Werre_Fsck
03-17-2005, 10:04 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>The Spitfire is good... if you turn with it and get slapped, that's your problem. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yeah well but there's this little thing .. Spit at highspeed can do 180deg turn without losing speed.

I did headon with spit at 3km (in corsair), throttle at full tilt nose slightly down radiator at 40% open. Spit flew past, did 180deg turn and gained speed. The spit did not do some horrid dive to get speed initially - it was co-alt and seemingly co-speed.

Dived the corsair to separate, spit at .80 , .75, .70, .60, hispanos start spraying and lo behold one of them rounds hits, my rudder is gone.

I got the bugger eventually after some eye-opening manoeuvring... by turning into headon (the corsair seems to turn like crazy, but at least loses E while doing so) and toasting his engine.

It seemed like the clippedwing IX spit GAINED speed in shallow spiral climb. And could pull those 180deg no-E-loss-turns in vertical as well.

Quite incredible. I'd almost swap 109's InstaRoll(tm) controlled snap stalls to this "no E loss" feature.

geetarman
03-17-2005, 10:33 AM
Interesting discussion. After flying WC a long time, I'm of the opinion that no plane is uber enough to dominate. Most of the pilots are very good and know how and when to take advantage of a mistake. I really think it's that simple. One thing I am sure of though - high speed and the ability to maintain high speed solves a lot of problems. That's the one area where Spits are hurting a little.

Funny, not too much comment about the Mustang. Basically I think it's finally modelled pretty well. It is easier to survive in that plane than most others, but sometimes harder to get a kill.

Another thing I've found, one of the most lethal opponents in WC is a Mustang pilot who manages his speed well and is expert in using the K-14. Three things usually happen when he gets a shot opportunity and hits:

1. The enemy plane is immediately shot down;
2. The enemy is not hurt but on the defensive;
3. The enemy is hurt and on the defensive.

Many some or most 51 pilots don't use the sight because it's hard to use. Once you get the hang of it, it's deadly.

Fish6891
03-17-2005, 10:36 AM
Abbuzze underestimates the 190 http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/10.gif

gates123
03-17-2005, 11:00 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by WOLFMondo:
Autobalance is definatly needed. However I feel some die hard red or blue only guys will be crying over this. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>



I've never understood why people can't fly all planes or why squads will only fly red or blue. Whats the deal? You wonder why people complain about side balance. Some squad might come in when the blue side is totally stacked and because they only fly blue they stack it even more. They make it so lopsided that some red guys just get too frustrated with the vulching that they leave, and the blue side has 10 guys chasing one Spit fighting for his life over his base.

Learn to fly all planes and help the online community have fun. I usually fly GG but regardless of what server I'm on I ALWAYS fly the short stacked side for balance and fun. We have over 200 flyables for god sakes!

Sorry Gate we can't do that we only fly Jugs or we only fly blue. Whats the point? To me the pilots who can fly and fight in any plane and do it well are the true aces in this game. Those who stick to flying one plane or one side just wont get much respect from me because they would rather fly for their stats then fly for the side that is in desperate need of a few players.

Rant over.

faustnik
03-17-2005, 11:07 AM
You can't expect people to fly every plane Gates, but, certainly you can find similar aircraft on either side. I fly the Fw190 most of the time but, will gladly jump in a P-47 to balance a server. The same tactics work perfectly, and there really is no adjustment required. The same tactics also work with the P-51, Mig-3 and Lagg-3. Just find similar planes on either side that suite your style. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

gates123
03-17-2005, 11:17 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by faustnik:
You can't expect people to fly every plane Gates, but, certainly you can find similar aircraft on either side. I fly the Fw190 most of the time but, will gladly jump in a P-47 to balance a server. The same tactics work perfectly, and there really is no adjustment required. The same tactics also work with the P-51, Mig-3 and Lagg-3. Just find similar planes on either side that suite your style. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


Yeah thats great in theory but it rarely happens. Why because some people cant kill anything unless they have a mk-108 strapped on and some people can't fly anything unless they are in their "uber-turning" Spit.

The problem stems from people's egos, and are unwilling to take a little time to learn how to fly new aircraft without getting their a$$e$ handed to them for a few more weeks. Its much easier to just stack a team and fly the one plane they have "mastered" then it is to keep the game balanced and make it fun and challenging for both sides.

p1ngu666
03-17-2005, 12:06 PM
i fly all planes, but the difference between how i fight isnt that dramatic depending on plane, just take account of what plane u in, and adust tatics to suit.

mw50 109 vs spit, 109 has climb and speed advantage, it SHOULD be the winner, but as megile says, if u turn then u will get slapped...

ive seen the same thing, me in i16, get on 109 who starts manovering about. felt like screaming at them "WHAT ARE U DOING U ******!"

think i shot several down, who did that...

faustnik
03-17-2005, 12:19 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by gates123:

Yeah thats great in theory but it rarely happens. Why because some people cant kill anything unless they have a mk-108 strapped on and some people can't fly anything unless they are in their "uber-turning" Spit. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Gates,

You're hangin' out with the wrong crowd. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

gates123
03-17-2005, 12:50 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by faustnik:

Gates,

You're hangin' out with the wrong crowd. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>



Hehe http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif Well unfortuently I see this with any server that runs stats, but I dont mind being outnumbered 4:1 for a little bit, its fun.

F0_Dark_P
03-17-2005, 01:03 PM
whine how much you want http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif , but i will newer fly anything else but LW planes

and yes i am a nazi, and a really proud one http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

faustnik
03-17-2005, 01:06 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by F0_Dark_P:
whine how much you want http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif , but i will newer fly anything else but LW planes

and yes i am a nazi, and a really proud one http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Your loss.

F0_Dark_P
03-17-2005, 01:26 PM
it was ment to be read with [IRONY] notice the ( http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif )

i only fly LW planes couse they are the ones i like to fly, and those i am accustom to,

sure you can balance the teams if the difference is big, but i rather fly the planes that i am good at flying dont you?

p1ngu666
03-17-2005, 01:45 PM
http://premium1.uploadit.org/pingu666//fish190.jpg

the effect fish had when he saw his first 190...

Tgd_Voxman
03-17-2005, 06:07 PM
Uberwash? http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Heavy_Weather
03-17-2005, 11:24 PM
fly the CW version, you can always get inside. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

Badsight.
03-17-2005, 11:50 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Megile:
The Spifire probably outturned and shot down the BF-109, and was then pounced on by 5 of his blue buddies http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>ha ha ha !

WOLFMondo
03-18-2005, 03:20 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by p1ngu666:
http://premium1.uploadit.org/pingu666//fish190.jpg

the effect fish had when he saw his first 190... <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/88.gif

Codex1971
03-18-2005, 06:13 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by HayateAce:
You see this because the 109 is improperly modeled.

The main problems are that the late 109s do not stall properly and when they chop power it is instantaneous. To ac such as the P51 and the Spit driver caught unawares, it looks like the 109 literally goes into reverse. That is the reversal you are seeing.

Once they chop power, the overdone horsepower and acceleration allow them to immediately go over to the offensive and begin pulling off some very UFO like moves.

Watch a 109 go into a purposeful stall at 50 meters, insta-recover and then immediately re-enter the fight.

The 109 FM is actually just kind of silly and needs to be tweaked. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Believe me the 109's do stall properly, it just the pilots abilities that make the difference b/n stalling out and hanging on the edge of stall.

As for the power well that is because the 109's have auto prop pitch where the Spit, P51 and others don't, if your full power and then chop the throttle the prop's AOA will change which will begin to distrupt air flow over the blades thus slowing the plane down. On the flipside auto prop usually is a little slower in winding back up.

VW-IceFire
03-18-2005, 06:53 AM
To the original poster of the thread: You're right. The Spitfire, despite all the insane amount of whining coming from some quarters, is a match but not really superior to the 109 and other aircraft that its flying against.

I've been on the recieving end of a good 109 pilot far more than I'm willing to admit.

HayateAce
03-18-2005, 09:46 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Codex1971:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by HayateAce:
You see this because the 109 is improperly modeled.

The main problems are that the late 109s do not stall properly and when they chop power it is instantaneous. To ac such as the P51 and the Spit driver caught unawares, it looks like the 109 literally goes into reverse. That is the reversal you are seeing.

Once they chop power, the overdone horsepower and acceleration allow them to immediately go over to the offensive and begin pulling off some very UFO like moves.

Watch a 109 go into a purposeful stall at 50 meters, insta-recover and then immediately re-enter the fight.

The 109 FM is actually just kind of silly and needs to be tweaked. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Believe me the 109's do stall properly, it just the pilots abilities that make the difference b/n stalling out and hanging on the edge of stall.

As for the power well that is because the 109's have auto prop pitch where the Spit, P51 and others don't, if your full power and then chop the throttle the prop's AOA will change which will begin to distrupt air flow over the blades thus slowing the plane down. On the flipside auto prop usually is a little slower in winding back up. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Ok thanks for clearing up this mystery. All folks who hop in 1-0-Whine are instant expurten. No wonder so many folkenflieger are attracted to this KlownWagon.

GUARD4000
03-18-2005, 11:47 AM
guys,soon we will get a new FM.Oleg Maddox has said that there will be a 4.0,not 3.05.
http://forums.ubi.com/eve/forums?a=tpc&s=400102&f=63110913&m=3041012492
In that patch we will get a new FM.So stop talking about the FM we have now.

Von_Rat
03-18-2005, 12:12 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by gates123:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by WOLFMondo:
Autobalance is definatly needed. However I feel some die hard red or blue only guys will be crying over this. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>



I've never understood why people can't fly all planes or why squads will only fly red or blue. Whats the deal? You wonder why people complain about side balance. Some squad might come in when the blue side is totally stacked and because they only fly blue they stack it even more. They make it so lopsided that some red guys just get too frustrated with the vulching that they leave, and the blue side has 10 guys chasing one Spit fighting for his life over his base.

Learn to fly all planes and help the online community have fun. I usually fly GG but regardless of what server I'm on I ALWAYS fly the short stacked side for balance and fun. We have over 200 flyables for god sakes!

Sorry Gate we can't do that we only fly Jugs or we only fly blue. Whats the point? To me the pilots who can fly and fight in any plane and do it well are the true aces in this game. Those who stick to flying one plane or one side just wont get much respect from me because they would rather fly for their stats then fly for the side that is in desperate need of a few players.

Rant over. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

on warclouds i see quite a few players with very good stats, who switch sides when needed, or just for a change of pace.

and if they are that worried about stats they can change name and fly other side. somtimes when im slumming on red side, i go by name red rat.

im jv44 and recently ive flown spit on red side. just so i could shoot down some other jv44.lol.

i gotta say nothing is as exciting as being in a spit getting worked over by jv44sikira and jv44heinzbar in their fws. i was dodging like a madman.lol.

Jaws2002
03-18-2005, 12:25 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by gates123:



Yeah thats great in theory but it rarely happens. Why because some people cant kill anything unless they have a mk-108 strapped on and some people can't fly anything unless they are in their "uber-turning" Spit.

The problem stems from people's egos, and are unwilling to take a little time to learn how to fly new aircraft without getting their a$$e$ handed to them for a few more weeks. Its much easier to just stack a team and fly the one plane they have "mastered" then it is to keep the game balanced and make it fun and challenging for both sides. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Sooooooo true. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif

Badsight.
03-18-2005, 03:43 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by HayateHater:
i really hope the Mk108 finally gets proper hit power , too weak as it is

& when is the Bf109 ever going to get more elevator authority ? anyone who knows me can tell you how much it irritates me having Bf109s undermoddeled this way. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
if you aint a GR142 member , then your a member of some other american squad HayateHater

MEGILE
03-18-2005, 04:46 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by HayateHater:
i really hope the Mk108 finally gets proper hit power , too weak as it is
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

MK108 underpowered? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/blink.gif

p1ngu666
03-18-2005, 05:06 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Megile:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by HayateHater:
i really hope the Mk108 finally gets proper hit power , too weak as it is
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

MK108 underpowered? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/blink.gif <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

he works for a mining company

faustnik
03-18-2005, 05:12 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Megile:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by HayateHater:
i really hope the Mk108 finally gets proper hit power , too weak as it is
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

MK108 underpowered? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/blink.gif <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I second that and raise you 2 more http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/blink.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/blink.gif

Codex1971
03-20-2005, 03:29 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by HayateAce:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Codex1971:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by HayateAce:
You see this because the 109 is improperly modeled.

The main problems are that the late 109s do not stall properly and when they chop power it is instantaneous. To ac such as the P51 and the Spit driver caught unawares, it looks like the 109 literally goes into reverse. That is the reversal you are seeing.

Once they chop power, the overdone horsepower and acceleration allow them to immediately go over to the offensive and begin pulling off some very UFO like moves.

Watch a 109 go into a purposeful stall at 50 meters, insta-recover and then immediately re-enter the fight.

The 109 FM is actually just kind of silly and needs to be tweaked. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Believe me the 109's do stall properly, it just the pilots abilities that make the difference b/n stalling out and hanging on the edge of stall.

As for the power well that is because the 109's have auto prop pitch where the Spit, P51 and others don't, if your full power and then chop the throttle the prop's AOA will change which will begin to distrupt air flow over the blades thus slowing the plane down. On the flipside auto prop usually is a little slower in winding back up. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Ok thanks for clearing up this mystery. All folks who hop in 1-0-Whine are instant expurten. No wonder so many folkenflieger are attracted to this KlownWagon. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Who's whining here?

Vipez-
03-20-2005, 03:37 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by HayateAce:
http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/10.gif
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
I feel so sorry for HayataAce, as he has to grow old with... himself


http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/51.gif

Chivas
03-20-2005, 11:11 PM
The Spits cannons are just as effective as the 108 and much safer to use. A single burst from a 108 will blow up a spitfire and the explosion will quite often take your own wing off. A single burst from a Spit will completed tear apart a 109 with little fear of an explosion.

FatBoyHK
03-20-2005, 11:43 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Chivas:
The Spits cannons are just as effective as the 108 and much safer to use. A single burst from a 108 will blow up a spitfire and the explosion will quite often take your own wing off. A single burst from a Spit will completed tear apart a 109 with little fear of an explosion. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

lol, you want safety? go for 50cals http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_cool.gif

VF_29_Bulldog
03-20-2005, 11:49 PM
Thats why I like the Warhawks....
Bull

Chivas
03-21-2005, 01:35 AM
Yes the 50's are the safest weapon. Just fly high boom and spray...repeat 3 times...then fly away ...loiter until all damaged aircraft have landed...then land and collect your points. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Thats if the bl**dy Spits don't steal your kills. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif

WOLFMondo
03-21-2005, 03:57 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Chivas:
The Spits cannons are just as effective as the 108 and much safer to use. A single burst from a 108 will blow up a spitfire and the explosion will quite often take your own wing off. A single burst from a Spit will completed tear apart a 109 with little fear of an explosion. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Flights of fancy:P. Simply ain't true at all.

EAGLE_34_WO
03-21-2005, 06:19 AM
Codex1971, Spits do have auto prop pitch. I toggle it on and off quite often.

Chivas
03-21-2005, 11:29 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by WOLFMondo:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Chivas:
The Spits cannons are just as effective as the 108 and much safer to use. A single burst from a 108 will blow up a spitfire and the explosion will quite often take your own wing off. A single burst from a Spit will completed tear apart a 109 with little fear of an explosion. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Flights of fancy:P. Simply ain't true at all. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Try using your convergence properly at close range and its more than true. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

BlackStar2000
03-21-2005, 11:42 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by HayateAce:
You see this because the Spit9 is improperly modeled.

The main problems are that the late Spit9s do not stall properly and when they chop power it is instantaneous. To ac such as the P51 and the 109 driver caught unawares, it looks like the Spit9 literally goes into reverse. That is the reversal you are seeing.

Once they chop power, the overdone horsepower and acceleration allow them to immediately go over to the offensive and begin pulling off some very UFO like moves.

Watch a Spit9 go into a purposeful stall at 50 meters, insta-recover and then immediately re-enter the fight.

The Spit9 FM is actually just kind of silly and needs to be tweaked. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well i must agree with you

BlackStar2000
03-21-2005, 11:54 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by p1ngu666:
indeed faus http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

109s on warclouds, u wont find a g6 plain. g6as u will find, k4, g10 14 and g2.

all have adavantages over spits, mw50 can outclimb and out speed and accelorate spits <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Oh my GOD i can believe in this, boy your mamma told to not lie, right now your Sipt9 outturn outdive outshoot, is the king of the mountain, if dont own any, i mean ANY 109 show you sorry a$$ online and i teach you.

MEGILE
03-21-2005, 12:19 PM
http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif
Humour him some more please.

p1ngu666
03-21-2005, 12:52 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by BlackStar2000:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by p1ngu666:
indeed faus http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

109s on warclouds, u wont find a g6 plain. g6as u will find, k4, g10 14 and g2.

all have adavantages over spits, mw50 can outclimb and out speed and accelorate spits <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Oh my GOD i can believe in this, boy your mamma told to not lie, right now your Sipt9 outturn outdive outshoot, is the king of the mountain, if dont own any, i mean ANY 109 show you sorry a$$ online and i teach you. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

outturns at some speeds, not sure on the dive, 109 gets stiff tho, so ill give u that
outshoot? hm sometimes.

mw50 109s are faster and have better climb, so u can control the situation... besides u dont need many hits to down a aircraft with mk108... http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

lets play spot the better plane

http://premium1.uploadit.org/pingu666//spitvs109.jpg

p1ngu666
03-21-2005, 12:59 PM
http://premium1.uploadit.org/pingu666//spitvs1092.jpg

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif

p1ngu666
03-21-2005, 01:07 PM
curious thing, maybe a game bug. onwhine i see k4, g6as, g10 g14 etc, but, every lw player whines like hes flying the most produced 109 http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif. the fogotten 109, the g6 http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif

http://premium1.uploadit.org/pingu666//spitvs1093.jpg

but, this is a good spitkiller ride
http://premium1.uploadit.org/pingu666//spitkiller.jpg
took out 3 in a sortie, AND a yak9ut http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif. in the AIR, not vulching http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif

BlackStar2000
03-21-2005, 01:23 PM
Cmon Pingu using some program to back up ur claim?, give me track of if it, i think programs like this manage only stats and its very difrent inside the game, once u post graphs like that to prove thta IL2 FM is good as fighter???. If u want to reealy prove it, MAKE track, GIVE THE K4-G10-g14-g6AS TURNING INSIDE Spitfire9.

What i saw, is that is very easy shoot down any 109, i just telling what i did with Spit9, what i may say its like a walk in the park, pretty nice indeed, and my ride is the k4, in FR or easy settings, in spit9 im in.

But plz dont try to fool me with graps.

ploughman
03-21-2005, 01:54 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> Originally posted by HayateAce:
You see this because the 109 is improperly modeled.

The main problems are that the late 109s do not stall properly and when they chop power it is instantaneous. To ac such as the P51 and the Spit driver caught unawares, it looks like the 109 literally goes into reverse. That is the reversal you are seeing.

Once they chop power, the overdone horsepower and acceleration allow them to immediately go over to the offensive and begin pulling off some very UFO like moves.

Watch a 109 go into a purposeful stall at 50 meters, insta-recover and then immediately re-enter the fight.

The 109 FM is actually just kind of silly and needs to be tweaked. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

<span class="ev_code_RED">Becomes...</span>

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> Originally posted by HayateAce:
You see this because the Spit9 is improperly modeled.

The main problems are that the late Spit9s do not stall properly and when they chop power it is instantaneous. To ac such as the P51 and the 109 driver caught unawares, it looks like the Spit9 literally goes into reverse. That is the reversal you are seeing.

Once they chop power, the overdone horsepower and acceleration allow them to immediately go over to the offensive and begin pulling off some very UFO like moves.

Watch a Spit9 go into a purposeful stall at 50 meters, insta-recover and then immediately re-enter the fight.

The Spit9 FM is actually just kind of silly and needs to be tweaked. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

<span class="ev_code_RED">Top stuff. Hang on while I let the dog out and get some popcorn. </span>

MEGILE
03-21-2005, 02:27 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by BlackStar2000:


But plz dont try to fool me with graphs. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Now that is a bold statement.

TheGozr
03-21-2005, 03:29 PM
A lots of talking

BTW a Match open to greatergreen versus Warclouds is on a waiting state from the WC side.

We all wish to see what side would win in a mission fight.

I know that GG are ready with their hand on the triger..

Von_Rat
03-21-2005, 03:50 PM
pingu666, you gotta take il2 compare with a large grain of salt, its outright wrong in many cases.

the major beef people have with spit isn't on any of those graphs. people complain about its e retention, more than anything else. sure it was a good clean design. but i'd like to see some numbers that show it should be retaining e as well as it does in game.

as for nobody flying g6. as far as warclouds goes it a late war server, so it has late war planes. i dunno why g2 is there.

how many people gonna fly spit9 when the spit14 comes out. spit9 served in 44 like g6 did. but after spit14 comes out i bet nobody flys it much. just like nobody flys p51b or c.

p1ngu666
03-21-2005, 04:07 PM
true rat, i wished to point out the big performance advantage those late war 109's have over spit, u shouldnt be turn fighting spits. u should use the advantages your aircraft has over his, and deny him his advantages, if at all possible

p1ngu666
03-21-2005, 04:10 PM
and yes, some 43 early 44 missions would be interesting http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

fast low level jabo raids on v weapon sites, troop consentrations, bridges, railwasy etc http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

bolillo_loco
03-21-2005, 05:26 PM
the bf 109 is largely over looked in this game for reasons beyond my belief. I find it amusing how the ki 84 and spit are often whinned about, unlucky people who use these a/c suffer a torrent of verbal abuse from other players, they are often called "noobs" yet the 109 player can roam the skies w/o worry of coming under verbal attack because most people cannot be bothered to try a 109. the 109 is by and far way more uber than the spit and ki 84. when I came to this game I wasted my first month in a ki 84. One night I got tired of 109s shooting me down, out turning me, out climbing me, running away from me, out gunning me, pre-ki84ib and ic days, so one night I tried the 109k4.........instant success my kill to death ratio soared over night.

too many people base their opinions on the 109k that doesnt use cem or trim. I have heard all the cem stories before about using cem in other a/c.......well I notice absolutely no effect in other a/c....only the 109 sees a 25-50% increase in climb and acceleration by using cem the list goes on and on.

the 109 is way uber (cem and trim should be taken away from it) it out does its real life counter part in every department.......in a big way!

Von_Rat
03-21-2005, 05:49 PM
you haven't been reading any posts by hayateace, if you think 109 flyers don't get any verbal abuse. lol.

Codex1971
03-21-2005, 05:53 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by EAGLE_34_WO:
Codex1971, Spits do have auto prop pitch. I toggle it on and off quite often. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yes I know the later models have it modelled, my apologies for not specifiying that in my post.

Badsight.
03-21-2005, 10:09 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by bolillo_loco:
too many people base their opinions on the 109k that doesnt use cem or trim. I have heard all the cem stories before about using cem in other a/c.......well I notice absolutely no effect in other a/c....only the 109 sees a 25-50% increase in climb and acceleration by using cem the list goes on and on.

the 109 is way uber (cem and trim should be taken away from it) it out does its real life counter part in every department.......in a big way! <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>the advantages the prop pitch gives to the motor are based around the opportunity for increased RPM

RPM x Torque = Hp

now whether the boost should be as big as it is , or smaller , or bigger is what should be debated

not whether it happens , because manuel usage should give increased performance

EDIT : <span class="ev_code_RED">NO plane in FB suffers from as UNDER-Moddeled elevator authority as the bf109 series</span>

Atomic_Marten
03-22-2005, 02:31 AM
Hey guys what are you talking about? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

The only real problem is how to get higher then your oppo to be at 1,5 k higher than him in the initial moment of battle.

When that reqiremant is satisfied, there is no problem in shooting down enemy plane.

But you see, just that part is.. hm.. 'tricky'. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Personally, I found just one bad thing about Spit, when I BnZ Bf109 on high speed, I must be carefull not to black out.

About Bf109.. well on high speed there's no way that Messer can follow evasive sharp & vertical climb manoeuver made by Spit pilot (the 'specialist' of that manoeuver is P51 http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif , just above 500kmh).

Just the loss of energy and blackout are things to watch when driving Spit in game http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif.

BlackStar2000
03-22-2005, 05:38 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by p1ngu666:
true rat, i wished to point out the big performance advantage those late war 109's have over spit, u shouldnt be turn fighting spits. u should use the advantages your aircraft has over his, and deny him his advantages, if at all possible <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Try use Il2 compare and now test with Il2 Sutka and Hurricane all of this planes must outturn Spits,and what you say say about 109 still incorrect, bring some track, let everybody see it, or you argument will br empty, Il2 compare is not precise enough.

HeinzBar
03-22-2005, 06:56 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by TheGozr:
A lots of talking

BTW a Match open to greatergreen versus Warclouds is on a waiting state from the WC side.

We all wish to see what side would win in a mission fight.

I know that GG are ready with their hand on the triger.. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

S!,
Forutnately, I didn't fly in that match after the twisting of rules. Perhaps, this time, there will be a clear definition of the rules and what is expected? The taunting afterwards was in poor taste and unjustified when the mission objectives could be ignored. Unless there is a clear and concrete set of rules, not subject to change at a moment's whim, I doubt there will be a match. No one wants to end up w/ the messed the last one caused due to a misunderstand/changing rule set.

WR,
HB

p1ngu666
03-22-2005, 11:17 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by BlackStar2000:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by p1ngu666:
true rat, i wished to point out the big performance advantage those late war 109's have over spit, u shouldnt be turn fighting spits. u should use the advantages your aircraft has over his, and deny him his advantages, if at all possible <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Try use Il2 compare and now test with Il2 Sutka and Hurricane all of this planes must outturn Spits,and what you say say about 109 still incorrect, bring some track, let everybody see it, or you argument will br empty, Il2 compare is not precise enough. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

well, il2 and stuka will get out turned but they can track a target for a few seconds. i took a few ppl by surprise in my il2...

besides, why do u want to turn fight with spitfires? its not a zero http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif

HayateAce
03-22-2005, 12:03 PM
Great postings.

But remember, hate the Fb109s not the Whine-O-Neiners. (Fb = FantasyBogus)

Whine-O-Neiners are great people, just a little misguided. C'mon guys, we are trying to help you.

Anyway, agree with all of you that the 109 needs to have the silly prop pitch, fake instant-trim and fantasy No-stall taken away. Then we have ourselves a SIM aye?

Until the patch, we are stuck with this Fb109 show below:

http://www.dpent.ca/Images/airplane%20300.gif

Atomic_Marten
03-22-2005, 12:10 PM
Yes Spit is good turn fighter until run outta energy -- 250-300kmh and below that (on deck mostly) where in most cases will Bf109 be in advantage.

However if turn properly, every other fighter will have truble with Spit. Other than early zeros and biplanes included http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif. Their strongest point is that they do not lose much energy in one (initial) turn, so if Bf109 driver is uncautious Spit can be on his tail in no time.

p1ngu666
03-22-2005, 12:56 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by HayateAce:
Great postings.

But remember, hate the Fb109s not the Whine-O-Neiners. (Fb = FantasyBogus)

Whine-O-Neiners are great people, just a little misguided. C'mon guys, we are trying to help you.

Anyway, agree with all of you that the 109 needs to have the silly prop pitch, fake instant-trim and fantasy No-stall taken away. Then we have ourselves a SIM aye?

Until the patch, we are stuck with this Fb109 show below:

http://www.dpent.ca/Images/airplane%20300.gif <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/88.gif @ pic

KGr.HH-Sunburst
03-22-2005, 01:23 PM
after 3 years ive seen the light and yes indeed the late war one-0-whines are clown wagons
(the LW got good propaganda to cover their own uberness, be sure http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif )
im saying that with this patch (3.03m)
i started flying red planes and i must say that i see 109s making very funny stall moves
more so then the spitfire because i dint care in the FW190s i just disengage at will no matter what moves they can make
but its very hard to disengage in a P47 or P51 from late 109s because they are just as fast or faster

and other then stiffer controls at high speeds then some planes it has no weak points FM wise it can do it ALL GOOD
so yes the 109 is infact a newbie plane http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

JG54_Arnie
03-22-2005, 03:07 PM
http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif The word is out! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif New newbie plane of the year..... http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/88.gif

JG5_UnKle
03-22-2005, 06:10 PM
If the dweebfire had combat flaps they wouldn't even bother logging on to the forums - it would just be us luftwhiners left. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

Oh and Hayateymatey of course.

If spits had combat flaps then we would really need someone to take the p1ss out of http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/88.gif

Seriously though, I think the combat flap (lack of e-bleed etc) on MOST aircraft is off in this sim, just a little combat flap and you can do crazy things.

p1ngu666
03-22-2005, 07:04 PM
u can pop combat flap at any speed. only some aircraft could do that at resonable speed without jam, thinkin of p51, also i think f4f f6f could, but airpressure would force the flaps back up, so they would goto normal at higher speeds

think if u hit down and up, u can balance the flap at combat, but flap on a slider u can get combat on all planes http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif

oh, i did realise 109 was noob plane, well late war ones... cos they was mostly flown by n00bies irl http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

Atomic_Marten
03-22-2005, 07:51 PM
OK then all we have in game is noob planes all over the place. Seems to me that

1-either the game have become too easy for most of guys that are coming here (2c on this one)
2-game has become easier with every new patch
3-now all countries have their über late war model (by nasty tweaking FM).

In order
RAF__ Spitfire MK9 (choose your favourite variant)
LW__ Bf109GAS/K4
USAAF__ well.. P51D?
USMC__ F4U1C? hmm...
IJAAF__ Ki84
IJNAF__ hmmm.. choose your Zero.
VVS__ LA7, Yak3


Geez what a charade... über this über that.

p1ngu666
03-22-2005, 08:25 PM
the zero isnt uber, is undermodeled http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-sad.gif

FatBoyHK
03-22-2005, 08:41 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by p1ngu666:
the zero isnt uber, is undermodeled http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-sad.gif <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

It can dive with a wildcat, undermodelled?

FatBoyHK
03-22-2005, 09:20 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Atomic_Marten:
3-now all countries have their über late war model (by nasty tweaking FM).

In order
RAF__ Spitfire MK9 (choose your favourite variant)
LW__ Bf109GAS/K4
USAAF__ well.. P51D?
USMC__ F4U1C? hmm...
IJAAF__ Ki84
IJNAF__ hmmm.. choose your Zero.
VVS__ LA7, Yak3
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Are you sure you wanna classify Mustang as uber?

LBR_W.Zellot
03-22-2005, 09:26 PM
109's don't stall? Maybe, just maybe, it's because they have little slats on their wings that increase their AoA, and most people that fly hem are doing so for more than a year and know quen their A/C is pre-stalling and know how to reverse it.

I cannot complain of the 109, except for the stiff elevator and the 30mm only versions http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

Badsight.
03-22-2005, 09:55 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by p1ngu666:
besides, why do u want to turn fight with spitfires? its not a zero http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>that isnt the point people are making

2 humans going at each other can & do have different results than IL2Compare shows

just showing what IL2Compare says isnt showing what people are actually doing online

Badsight.
03-22-2005, 09:57 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Hayate******:
Anyway, agree with all of you that the 109 needs to have the silly prop pitch, fake instant-trim and fantasy No-stall taken away. Then we have ourselves a SIM aye? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>whatever game your deluding yourself with , stop posting about it at this forum

this is a web-board for people using the 1C:Maddox published "Forgotten Battles"

EDIT : <span class="ev_code_YELLOW">NO plane in FB has as UNDER-Moddeled elevator authority as the Bf109 series</span>

JG54_Arnie
03-23-2005, 01:21 AM
Nonsense Badsight. Just use some combat flaps and you'll be fine.

What would happen if this 109 gets uber elevator authority? What are you looking for anyways? Something like the 190?
It would be good at everything, high speed manouvres, low level turning, stallfighting, BnZ, combined with the 108 it would be the uberest of uberplanes. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif

But lets see what the next patch brings, guess it should bring back some of the difficulty in flying and manouvres? http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

HayateAce
03-23-2005, 01:46 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Badsight.:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Hayate******:
Anyway, agree with all of you that the 109 needs to have the silly prop pitch, fake instant-trim and fantasy No-stall taken away. Then we have ourselves a SIM aye? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>whatever game your deluding yourself with , stop posting about it at this forum

this is a web-board for people using the 1C:Maddox published "Forgotten Battles"

EDIT : <span class="ev_code_YELLOW">NO plane in FB has as _UNDER_-Moddeled elevator authority as the Bf109 series</span> <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Badsite,

I can see you are really frustrated, having simply resorted to name calling.

I guess I hurt your feelings in the past?



BOGUS FANTASY 109 = G A M E P L A Y

Today's Fantasy Spotlight: Prop-Pitch Heli-Climb Action!

http://archive.liveauctioneers.com/archive/339/0242_1_md.jpg

JG5_UnKle
03-23-2005, 03:22 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by HayateAce:

Today's Fantasy Spotlight: Prop-Pitch Heli-Climb Action!

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Don't tell me you are now going to start to whine about the Spitfire's over modelled climb rate? You really have excelled yourself http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/34.gif

Codex1971
03-23-2005, 03:32 AM
To all those complaining about the Axis or Allied planes can they please indicate whether they have any "credible" background in aeronautical engineering or if they are actual qualified pilots who actually flew or currently fly these planes?

MEGILE
03-23-2005, 09:46 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by JG5_UnKle:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by HayateAce:

Today's Fantasy Spotlight: Prop-Pitch Heli-Climb Action!

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Don't tell me you are now going to start to whine about the Spitfire's over modelled climb rate? You really have excelled yourself http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/34.gif <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

No, i think he is more inclined to complain about the BF-109K4's over-modelled climb rate and stall speed and general low speed handling, looking at his recent posts.
He does not seem to complain about allied planes performance though... I assume he is a red only pilot, or is somehow unable to find any fault in their performance during his well documented and thorough tests. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

p1ngu666
03-23-2005, 11:07 AM
http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

Badsight.
03-23-2005, 11:45 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by HayateAce:
I can see you are really frustrated <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>not at all , id just like you to tell everyone what your original login is so we know who the Yankwhiner it is we are laughing at

btw , do some research , the plane in FB with the most under-performing elevator is , whats that ? yes you guessed right

the Bf109 G-K series , & guess what else , the K Bf109 is so overmoddeled that the Mk9 Spitfire out-climbs it

oh wait , you think thats ok

Hayate_Hater , its because of spammers like you that this forum has the reputation of a joke

Badsight.
03-23-2005, 11:48 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by JG54_Arnie:
Nonsense Badsight. Just use some combat flaps and you'll be fine.

What would happen if this 109 gets uber elevator authority? What are you looking for anyways? Something like the 190?
It would be good at everything, high speed manouvres, low level turning, stallfighting, BnZ, combined with the 108 it would be the uberest of uberplanes <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>ok

but do tell me what your turn time at 6K is in the Bf-109K

entry speed = 650 kmh true

level turn

for G A M E P L A Y the Bf109s are limited far too early at turning in the speed range

so people like Hayate_Hater actually get a chance

Aaron_GT
03-24-2005, 03:50 AM
"u can pop combat flap at any speed."

They don't always actually deploy, even if you've selected them, though. Sometimes you will get the 'flaps deploying' sound for an extended period and if you look externally they are trying to deploy but not actually coming down.

Von_Rat
03-24-2005, 02:27 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Megile:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by JG5_UnKle:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by HayateAce:

Today's Fantasy Spotlight: Prop-Pitch Heli-Climb Action!

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Don't tell me you are now going to start to whine about the Spitfire's over modelled climb rate? You really have excelled yourself http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/34.gif <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

No, i think he is more inclined to complain about the BF-109K4's over-modelled climb rate and stall speed and general low speed handling, looking at his recent posts.
He does not seem to complain about allied planes performance though... I assume he is a red only pilot, or is somehow unable to find any fault in their performance during his well documented and thorough tests. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

not to get in a big arguement here, but i keep seeing people complain about k4s low speed handling. have you guys flown it in a low speed dogfight. its a pos. its much worse handling and stalling than a g6 in a low speed turn fight. as it should be.

Atomic_Marten
03-24-2005, 07:19 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Badsight.:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by HayateAce:
I can see you are really frustrated <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>not at all , id just like you to tell everyone what your original login is so we know who the Yankwhiner it is we are laughing at

btw , do some research , the plane in FB with the most under-performing elevator is , whats that ? yes you guessed right

the Bf109 G-K series , & guess what else , the K Bf109 is so overmoddeled that the Mk9 Spitfire out-climbs it

oh wait , you think thats ok

Hayate_Hater , its because of spammers like you that this forum has the reputation of a joke <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Guys you may also try MiG3 and P39 for elevator (on high speed of course).. I believe they aren't alone in game (besides Bf109s)

p1ngu666
03-24-2005, 08:46 PM
hurri, yak also

JG54_Arnie
03-25-2005, 03:47 AM
I dont get this discussion at all, if you fly allied its suicide to dive away even from a 109 already, what is their freakin problem? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/51.gif

Vipez-
03-25-2005, 04:53 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Atomic_Marten:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Badsight.:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by HayateAce:
I can see you are really frustrated <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>not at all , id just like you to tell everyone what your original login is so we know who the Yankwhiner it is we are laughing at

btw , do some research , the plane in FB with the most under-performing elevator is , whats that ? yes you guessed right

the Bf109 G-K series , & guess what else , the K Bf109 is so overmoddeled that the Mk9 Spitfire out-climbs it

oh wait , you think thats ok

Hayate_Hater , its because of spammers like you that this forum has the reputation of a joke <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Guys you may also try MiG3 and P39 for elevator (on high speed of course).. I believe they aren't alone in game (besides Bf109s) <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

hmm i juts made an wierd discovery, I think Mig 3 model 1940 has better elevators, than Mig 3 UB/UDS/Shvak models.. or is it just me.. ? http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Ratsack
03-25-2005, 05:49 AM
Actually, I've seen 109Gs pulling out of high-speed dives too steeply for La5FNs to follow, and the limiting factor wasn't blackout.

The situation was G2s and G6s vs La5FNs on GreaterGreen, the DF was at about 2000 m and below (as per), and the 109 drivers were going vertical on defence. At the bottom of the loop - i.e., the high-speed part - the 109s were pulling up tighter than the Las. Some were getting caught at the top of this manoeuvre, but that was their own stupidity for not using all that gravity-fed speed to extend and re-enter the fight on better terms. Instead, they were staying with it and getting the axe in low-speed part of the envelope. Dumb, as I said.

The plane itself seemed to do very well, and I didn€t see evidence of poor elevators. Maybe the turn issue on the K4 is down to something else.

http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif
Ratsack