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View Full Version : If you thought Gladiator's zone is op.



dacinui
02-01-2019, 04:06 PM
Wait till you see vortiger's TENEBRIS .

Already getting tired of it.

Knight_Raime
02-01-2019, 04:46 PM
Every hero is capable of punishing black prior's bash. Not everyone can punish gladiator's zone. Glad's zone is still better overall.

C4rmine52
02-01-2019, 04:47 PM
Wait till you see vortiger's TENEBRIS .

Already getting tired of it.

You people must have slow reaction time. You know how easy it is to dodge his zone ?

FlyinBeef
02-01-2019, 05:39 PM
Gladiator's zone isn't OP, it is not very hard to dodge it and also every character able to punish it, it is just 50/50, if Gladiator feint it you can guaranlty gb him, if he not, you can parry.

EvoX.
02-01-2019, 05:51 PM
Pretty sure he means the bash from neutral, not his zone. That's where he says ''Tenebris'', plus it's 500ms compared to 600 (Gladiator's) and 700 (BP's zone).

And yeah, it's better than Glad's zone. Unpunishable, extremely low stamina cost, 20 damage. No room for comparison.

Knight_Raime
02-01-2019, 05:58 PM
Pretty sure he means the bash from neutral, not his zone. That's where he says ''Tenebris'', plus it's 500ms compared to 600 (Gladiator's) and 700 (BP's zone).

And yeah, it's better than Glad's zone. Unpunishable, extremely low stamina cost, 20 damage. No room for comparison.

Black prior's forward dodge bash is punishable on reaction by most dodge attacks even if it's buffered. Dodge into GB is also possible if you dodge on his dodge. But that's considered a read.
Glad's zone is not punishable by everyone and even a few of the heros who can punish it can't do it consistently. So no. It's not better than glad's zone.

Vakris_One
02-01-2019, 07:48 PM
Pretty sure he means the bash from neutral, not his zone. That's where he says ''Tenebris'', plus it's 500ms compared to 600 (Gladiator's) and 700 (BP's zone).

And yeah, it's better than Glad's zone. Unpunishable, extremely low stamina cost, 20 damage. No room for comparison.
Gonna have to disagree there. Glad's zone cannot be punished by most dodge attacks whereas Black Prior's zone can be punished by every dodge attack.

EvoX.
02-01-2019, 11:49 PM
Black prior's forward dodge bash is punishable on reaction by most dodge attacks even if it's buffered.

No, it isn't, you can stop spouting this BS. Even in perfect conditions with zero latency, the bots block every dodge attack that isn't initiated by an extremely early dodge, an impossible reaction. Good luck doing that more than once per match.

Gladiator's zone has the same damage, takes half the stamina, and can be punished by any character that can activate a dodge attack 200ms or sooner into a dodge. Also, it's slower, sitting at 600ms compared to 500. Prior's bash is faster, takes practically zero stamina, cannot be punished by GB without a hard read as it has the extremely low recovery of 600ms, and cannot be punished by dodge attacks without a very, very early dodge.

So yes, it is better.


Gonna have to disagree there. Glad's zone cannot be punished by most dodge attacks whereas Black Prior's zone can be punished by every dodge attack.

Bash, not zone. His bash most certainly cannot be punished by every dodge attack.

Knight_Raime
02-02-2019, 07:16 AM
No, it isn't, you can stop spouting this BS. Even in perfect conditions with zero latency, the bots block every dodge attack that isn't initiated by an extremely early dodge, an impossible reaction. Good luck doing that more than once per match.

Gladiator's zone has the same damage, takes half the stamina, and can be punished by any character that can activate a dodge attack 200ms or sooner into a dodge. Also, it's slower, sitting at 600ms compared to 500. Prior's bash is faster, takes practically zero stamina, cannot be punished by GB without a hard read as it has the extremely low recovery of 600ms, and cannot be punished by dodge attacks without a very, very early dodge.

So yes, it is better.



Bash, not zone. His bash most certainly cannot be punished by every dodge attack.

Just because you're incapable of doing something doesn't mean it's not possible. I went and tested it myself after having a discussion with someone else in a different thread. The fact that you think glad's zone is punishable by every hero just goes to show you don't know what you're talking about. If you want to tell me that it's practically impossible to dodge into GB to punish his bash on console i can concede to that as it's a read to do so by dodging on their dodge.

But every dodge attack can punish his bash by reacting to orange. heros that have a dodge attack at the earliest of 300ms into their dodge are even capable of punishing it. It's just tighter timing. But heros who can dodge attack 100ms into their dodge? Absolutely can with no issues.

OhHowSheGoingEh
02-02-2019, 09:29 AM
Every hero is capable of punishing black prior's bash. Not everyone can punish gladiator's zone. Glad's zone is still better overall.

First off he said vortiger's zone cant be punished not his neutral bash.
Second of all vortiger's zone is the exact same as as glads just slightly slower and you dont have to feint the second part.

Vakris_One
02-02-2019, 02:23 PM
Bash, not zone. His bash most certainly cannot be punished by every dodge attack.
No, Glad's actual zone attack cannot be punished by some dodge attacks such as Kensei, Orochi, etc. If he lets it fly and his opponent dodged to their right the attack hits the opponent and disrupts them out of their dodge attack. Whereas Vortiger's zone cannot do that and the bash part of it is slower than Glad's so it is much easier to dodge on reaction.


Prior's bash is faster, takes practically zero stamina, cannot be punished by GB without a hard read as it has the extremely low recovery of 600ms, and cannot be punished by dodge attacks without a very, very early dodge.

So yes, it is better.
Prior's zone bash is slower than Glad's zone bash. I'm not sure about the stamina use. Glad's zone also cannot be punished by a GB without a hard read because he can just let the attack fly or cancel it quick enough for a counter GB. Prior's zone can absolutely be punished by dodge attacks on reaction to seeing the startup animation of the unblockable swing. Glad can react to a late dodge attack by cancelling out of the strike and blocking.

Overall Gladiator still has the better version of that type of zone attack.

Dimitri..-
02-02-2019, 10:42 PM
Its only been TWO DAYS and people are complaining instead of actually PLAYING the game and learning how to play the new hero... EVERY ******* SEASON

Xil_h
02-02-2019, 10:46 PM
How can you consider it "playing" when 2 to 3 Vortingers are using vortex into you? Throw in a Shugo that spams hugs.
I don't think there is any fun to walk to a zone... Get gank banged... Respawn and repeat.

EvoX.
02-02-2019, 11:41 PM
Just because you're incapable of doing something doesn't mean it's not possible. I went and tested it myself after having a discussion with someone else in a different thread. The fact that you think glad's zone is punishable by every hero just goes to show you don't know what you're talking about. If you want to tell me that it's practically impossible to dodge into GB to punish his bash on console i can concede to that as it's a read to do so by dodging on their dodge.

But every dodge attack can punish his bash by reacting to orange. heros that have a dodge attack at the earliest of 300ms into their dodge are even capable of punishing it. It's just tighter timing. But heros who can dodge attack 100ms into their dodge? Absolutely can with no issues.

Drop the elitist attitude, you look stupid. I never said Glad's zone is punishable by every hero - Nuxia either punishes or trades with Glad's zone. If he lets it go despite her dodging, it will hit her at the same time she hits him with the dodge attack. His guard does not return soon enough to simply block if he faints on miss. Anyone with as fast, or faster dodge attack than Nuxia does the same (''fast'' in this case meaning how soon they can activate it).

The ''on console'' part of your post is just an attempt by you to be only half wrong. On console, on PC, it makes zero difference - it's unpunishable. This isn't just coming from me and a large portion of the community. Here's one of, if not the best duelist in the whole game saying it outright:


https://www.twitch.tv/videos/373160289?t=01h22m21s

In the spar after, his opponent didn't even try to GB, neither did Legion. Before that, a Valk tried her dodge attack after SB, it got blocked and never tried to punish again. Literally the only class who ever hit him after SB was Conq. Same deal is with Clutch, in 4v4's only a second enemy player can punish it. So yeah, I'll take the words and examples of way better players than you over your nonsense. Don't even bother replying, you really have no argument and you're talking like you can punish the move when pros can't. As if.


No, Glad's actual zone attack cannot be punished by some dodge attacks such as Kensei, Orochi, etc. If he lets it fly and his opponent dodged to their right the attack hits the opponent and disrupts them out of their dodge attack. Whereas Vortiger's zone cannot do that and the bash part of it is slower than Glad's so it is much easier to dodge on reaction.


Prior's zone bash is slower than Glad's zone bash. I'm not sure about the stamina use. Glad's zone also cannot be punished by a GB without a hard read because he can just let the attack fly or cancel it quick enough for a counter GB. Prior's zone can absolutely be punished by dodge attacks on reaction to seeing the startup animation of the unblockable swing. Glad can react to a late dodge attack by cancelling out of the strike and blocking.

Overall Gladiator still has the better version of that type of zone attack.

Second post still without grasping that neither I, nor OP, were ever talking about Prior's zone. It's his Shield Bash - Tenebris Rising - that is compared to Gladiator's zone. Your whole post is meaningless.

Nicklach
02-03-2019, 06:27 AM
Just because you're incapable of doing something doesn't mean it's not possible. I went and tested it myself after having a discussion with someone else in a different thread. The fact that you think glad's zone is punishable by every hero just goes to show you don't know what you're talking about. If you want to tell me that it's practically impossible to dodge into GB to punish his bash on console i can concede to that as it's a read to do so by dodging on their dodge.

But every dodge attack can punish his bash by reacting to orange. heros that have a dodge attack at the earliest of 300ms into their dodge are even capable of punishing it. It's just tighter timing. But heros who can dodge attack 100ms into their dodge? Absolutely can with no issues.

Wow, how can you lie like that with no shame whatsoever? It's obvious you didn't tested anything and is just BSing. You're literally saying most top GM players are wrong and/or you can actually predict the future to consistently punish BP bash. Tipical compulsive liar.

Please, find someone who's actually good at the game and test again.

Knight_Raime
02-03-2019, 03:04 PM
Drop the elitist attitude, you look stupid. I never said Glad's zone is punishable by every hero - Nuxia either punishes or trades with Glad's zone. If he lets it go despite her dodging, it will hit her at the same time she hits him with the dodge attack. His guard does not return soon enough to simply block if he faints on miss. Anyone with as fast, or faster dodge attack than Nuxia does the same (''fast'' in this case meaning how soon they can activate it).

The ''on console'' part of your post is just an attempt by you to be only half wrong. On console, on PC, it makes zero difference - it's unpunishable. This isn't just coming from me and a large portion of the community. Here's one of, if not the best duelist in the whole game saying it outright:


https://www.twitch.tv/videos/373160289?t=01h22m21s

In the spar after, his opponent didn't even try to GB, neither did Legion. Before that, a Valk tried her dodge attack after SB, it got blocked and never tried to punish again. Literally the only class who ever hit him after SB was Conq. Same deal is with Clutch, in 4v4's only a second enemy player can punish it. So yeah, I'll take the words and examples of way better players than you over your nonsense. Don't even bother replying, you really have no argument and you're talking like you can punish the move when pros can't. As if.

I gave you **** because your attitude is ****. Not because I think i'm better. So calling me an elitest is not even a fitting insult. You're the arse that devalues reads/mind based games and think it's more "guessing bs." You highly favor reactable play. You've said as much before. So don't act surprised when someone gives you **** for your opinion. Second, The twitch clip you gave doesn't do anything but give you comformation bias. The person doesn't explain anything. He just calls it "pay to win" and you take his word as gospel simply because of his skill.

No one's word should be taken as gospel. I'm certainly not taking anyone's word for black prior this early on. It's simply a mistake to do so. JJ was written off early on. He's been given more respect and acknowledgment from the competitive scene later on. Conq's initial thoughts by everyone was that he wasn't going to be great post rework. etc. Third. I mentioned console specifically because in this case the amount of frames is important. Conq's bash is easier to see because conq's animation has a lot more going on. it's more telegraphed. In Black prior's case he barely moves in the beginning frames of his bash. So even on pc it's hard to tell. And this was really in regards to dodge into GB. Not dodge attacks.

As for your final bit. Valk's dodge attack is 300ms into her dodge. Just like pk and Nuxia. In my testing those two heros while they could punish the bash it was very tight timing. So i'm not surprised that Valk's dodge attack didn't work immediately. And I know this is just shooting myself in the foot but i'm saying it anyway. Pro players are not perfect. They're not exempt from making mistakes/messing up timing. Black prior is a new hero with new animations. None of them are comfortable enough with him to be consistently reacting on right timings. Yes, them being good at the game gives them the advantage. And they'll likely get used to the animations before others do. But still. People massively undervalue the importance of time.

Finally, my entire point has seemingly gone over your head. I'm not stating i'm better than pros. I'm not saying that the recovery time on his neutral bash and chained bash are fine. (i've stated it more than once on the competitive reddit that i'd like the recovery on both to be increased slightly so punishing it is more consistent with punishing other bash based offense.) All I am trying to say is that it is POSSIBLE to punish with a guard break and with dodge attacks. If you want to continue to think i'm blowing smoke up your arse because of whatever reason that's your issue. Not mine.

UbiInsulin
02-03-2019, 08:03 PM
This thread really didn't need to get this salty. Leaving this open because I think discussing the new hero's moves is extremely relevant (even if there's some confusion over exactly which move that is). Please be good to each other and have this discussion in good faith.

Vakris_One
02-03-2019, 10:22 PM
Second post still without grasping that neither I, nor OP, were ever talking about Prior's zone. It's his Shield Bash - Tenebris Rising - that is compared to Gladiator's zone. Your whole post is meaningless.
Yeah I skipped over that part, sorry. Hokay, so you're complaining about how punishable the bash is compared to Glad's zone. Mmkay, let's have a look see:

● Both moves can be punished with a correct read in similiar ways.
- Verdict: Tie.

● Both moves cannot be punished on reaction. With the difference being that BP can recover quick enough to block/counter GB whereas Gladiator, in addition to be able to cut short his attack to block/counter GB, can also just let his attack fly and catch dodge attacks made on reaction.
- Verdict: Glad comes out ahead because he can actually deal damage for his opponent's mistake.

● Gladiator's zone plus feinting it costs a lot more stamina than BP's bash.
- Verdict: Big Papi wins this one.

● Both moves result in 20 damage on a successful hit.
- Verdict: Tie.

Overall Verdict: I'd say they're pretty even when it comes to how punishable they both are. The bash isn't less punishable than Glad's zone, they're both equally punishable on a read and equally un-punishable on a reaction. With Glad's zone holding the edge over Vortie's bash because Glad can actually punish dodge attacks. The higher stamina cost for Glad's zone means he can't do it as often as Rick and Vortie can do a bash but that comes down to playing to your hero's strengths. A good Glad player should be using their spacing to their advantage. All in all being able to punish dodge attacks and not just block them makes up for the higher stamina cost.

In my humble opinion, it's not a clear cut case of one being better than the other.

EvoX.
02-03-2019, 11:06 PM
I gave you **** because your attitude is ****. Not because I think i'm better. So calling me an elitest is not even a fitting insult. You're the arse that devalues reads/mind based games and think it's more "guessing bs." You highly favor reactable play. You've said as much before. So don't act surprised when someone gives you **** for your opinion. Second, The twitch clip you gave doesn't do anything but give you comformation bias. The person doesn't explain anything. He just calls it "pay to win" and you take his word as gospel simply because of his skill.

No one's word should be taken as gospel. I'm certainly not taking anyone's word for black prior this early on. It's simply a mistake to do so. JJ was written off early on. He's been given more respect and acknowledgment from the competitive scene later on. Conq's initial thoughts by everyone was that he wasn't going to be great post rework. etc. Third. I mentioned console specifically because in this case the amount of frames is important. Conq's bash is easier to see because conq's animation has a lot more going on. it's more telegraphed. In Black prior's case he barely moves in the beginning frames of his bash. So even on pc it's hard to tell. And this was really in regards to dodge into GB. Not dodge attacks.

As for your final bit. Valk's dodge attack is 300ms into her dodge. Just like pk and Nuxia. In my testing those two heros while they could punish the bash it was very tight timing. So i'm not surprised that Valk's dodge attack didn't work immediately. And I know this is just shooting myself in the foot but i'm saying it anyway. Pro players are not perfect. They're not exempt from making mistakes/messing up timing. Black prior is a new hero with new animations. None of them are comfortable enough with him to be consistently reacting on right timings. Yes, them being good at the game gives them the advantage. And they'll likely get used to the animations before others do. But still. People massively undervalue the importance of time.

Finally, my entire point has seemingly gone over your head. I'm not stating i'm better than pros. I'm not saying that the recovery time on his neutral bash and chained bash are fine. (i've stated it more than once on the competitive reddit that i'd like the recovery on both to be increased slightly so punishing it is more consistent with punishing other bash based offense.) All I am trying to say is that it is POSSIBLE to punish with a guard break and with dodge attacks. If you want to continue to think i'm blowing smoke up your arse because of whatever reason that's your issue. Not mine.

Gonna get triggered more? I've gotten an infraction for way less than those insults you threw, so you should too if this site's fair. That twitch clip I sent had nothing to do with the pay to win part, literally 2 seconds after that he says: ''You can't punish the bash'', which is why I linked it. His opinion > yours, no matter how much you twist it, if he can't punish it and others can't punish him it's completely safe without a hard read.

Also, your ''main point'' is hollow, because punishing something 1 out of 10 times does not make it punishable, just like how 400ms lights are deemed unreactable not because you can never, ever react to one, but because nobody can consistently do it, and the times players can't is far greater than the times they are able to - therefore they are unreactable. It's interesting how apparently nobody's word should be taken as gospel, yet you unironically preach on every thread concerning Prior how his SB can be punished without a read, in a realistic scenario, and expect people to basically do the same - take your word for it, because the evidence certainly isn't there. Hypocritical. That's why you give off that incessant vibe I addressed of being on a high horse and somehow knowing better than everybody, when you really don't.

I'm done here.


Yeah I skipped over that part, sorry. Hokay, so you're complaining about how punishable the bash is compared to Glad's zone. Mmkay, let's have a look see:

● Both moves can be punished with a correct read in similiar ways.
- Verdict: Tie.

● Both moves cannot be punished on reaction. With the difference being that BP can recover quick enough to block/counter GB whereas Gladiator, in addition to be able to cut short his attack to block/counter GB, can also just let his attack fly and catch dodge attacks made on reaction.
- Verdict: Glad comes out ahead because he can actually deal damage for his opponent's mistake.

● Gladiator's zone plus feinting it costs a lot more stamina than BP's bash.
- Verdict: Big Papi wins this one.

● Both moves result in 20 damage on a successful hit.
- Verdict: Tie.

Overall Verdict: I'd say they're pretty even when it comes to how punishable they both are. The bash isn't less punishable than Glad's zone, they're both equally punishable on a read and equally un-punishable on a reaction. With Glad's zone holding the edge over Vortie's bash because Glad can actually punish dodge attacks. The higher stamina cost for Glad's zone means he can't do it as often as Rick and Vortie can do a bash but that comes down to playing to your hero's strengths. A good Glad player should be using their spacing to their advantage. All in all being able to punish dodge attacks and not just block them makes up for the higher stamina cost.

In my humble opinion, it's not a clear cut case of one being better than the other.

Actually, after already arguing for Prior's bash, today I remembered that Glad's zone can be used as a pretty effective and annoying option select for parries, while the former cannot. That tips the scales in his favor, although without counting that, SB is better than his zone. Way less stamina, faster and harder to react to, same 20 damage, zero punish without a read dodge. Very low risk, too high of a reward.

Overall I was wrong, however. Sadibilis.

Knight_Raime
02-04-2019, 12:29 AM
Gonna get triggered more? I've gotten an infraction for way less than those insults you threw, so you should too if this site's fair. That twitch clip I sent had nothing to do with the pay to win part, literally 2 seconds after that he says: ''You can't punish the bash'', which is why I linked it. His opinion > yours, no matter how much you twist it, if he can't punish it and others can't punish him it's completely safe without a hard read.

Also, your ''main point'' is hollow, because punishing something 1 out of 10 times does not make it punishable, just like how 400ms lights are deemed unreactable not because you can never, ever react to one, but because nobody can consistently do it, and the times players can't is far greater than the times they are able to - therefore they are unreactable. It's interesting how apparently nobody's word should be taken as gospel, yet you unironically preach on every thread concerning Prior how his SB can be punished without a read, in a realistic scenario, and expect people to basically do the same - take your word for it, because the evidence certainly isn't there. Hypocritical. That's why you give off that incessant vibe I addressed of being on a high horse and somehow knowing better than everybody, when you really don't.

I'm done here.

Assuming you're having any impact on my state of mind is egotistical. I was merely explaining why my original reply to you had the tone that it did. I've also received warnings before it's not like i'm some poster boy here that gets by scott free. No one plays favorites here. I don't see the point of you sending the clip then. Because it's still just confirmation bias. It's still just someone echoing your statement. Which doesn't change what is being discussed. I personally have not even heard of this player. But I don't pretend to be aware of all the current skrim/tournament players.

I'm confused by your stance. First you're saying you can't punish it. Now it's sounding like you're saying you can but only on a read. And then the final paragraph you say it doesn't matter in the end if it is or it isn't. Correct me if i'm wrong, but i'm pretty sure i've been telling people that with a good dodge attack (like zerk, kensei, shaman) you can punish on seeing orange. But bad dodge attacks (like valk, pk, nuxia) the timing is a lot tighter. And that dodge into GB is basically a read because of his ability to cover up his bash from neutral with other options.

No I don't expect people to mindlessly follow me. The only thing I expect is people actually listen for a change instead of assuming I have some alterior motive or that i'm just lying out of my arse because I enjoy conflict or whatever. Contrary to what you and others might believe I don't actually freaking care if people believe me or accept my views. The ONLY reason I come here is to keep people informed about what I hear from the competitive side or the devs side. Like how Black prior's recovery after his neutral bash is 600ms. Meaning punishing it is totally possible.

But people here tend to get so caught up in their own feelings that anyone who opposes their view immediately is like some kind of threat that has to be taken out. I don't think it would kill anyone here to just take what someone says at face value for a change.

NGL_Apex
02-04-2019, 04:43 PM
What are people on about? BP BaSH iS PunIsHaBlE bY DoDgE AttACk. - Not all characters have a dodge attack. Dodge GB does not work, you just eat a 20 damage light. Besides that, not all dodge attacks work - As far as I know, only Valk, Zerk and Tiandi have CONFIRMED dodge hits, others can be blocked by the BP.